A Thousand Lies and a Good Disguise - A Rogue Guide

[CantigThimble]

The DM has to ok your ready action. There are examples in the book, but just saying "if anyone acts" is a bit... Munchan-y. DMs don't typically reward munchins.

Haste *potentially* doubles your damage output, something you don't need.

Doubling your damage output will put a target on your back, both in and out of game. You will be seen as a munchin out of game and in game you can get a nickname "patient pete" or whatever and enemies will learn about your fighting style. Then the enemies will plan for your fighting style.

Anything that stops sneak attack will stop this. This is basic tactics that a DM should employ from time to time anyways (but people get lazy or follow published adventures way to strictly).

I don't think a 3rd level slot is worth a huge maybe and being branded a munchin.

The ability of a rogue to sneak attack with reactions to double his damage is a part of the rules. Using fear effects, dissonant whispers or riposte are a few ways to do that. I don't see why haste breaks the camel's back here. When someone plays a support character they expect (and rightly so) that if they spend resources making someone awesome, that person will be awesome. A 3rd level spell is a pretty large investment for a character to make for one fight most of the time.

[SharkForce]

That is still quite munchin, though I still would slap haste on a Barbarian, Bard, or whomever else (though for the Fighter, enlarge person is the better spell).

The target thing... You are basically using a tactic that is unneeded and the only result is that people (in game) learn your tactic and will plan to take you out before moving on to the other players. They know that you are the biggest threat so will focus fire. The rogue can only uncanny dodge 1/round and doesn't have the best HP or AC (until later levels or you optimize). Rogues aren't really set up to be the focus of attention where as classes like the Fighter, Barbarian, Paladins, and Clerics are.

It isn't about haste being too good, its about haste not being worth the fallout from using it.

"i should gimp myself so that i don't get metagame punished by the DM" is not a problem with the haste spell, it is a problem with the DM.

and no, people in game don't hear your tactic and counter it flawlessly the majority of the time, any more than a wizard who uses web should only ever face enemies that have amazing dex saves or a fighter who uses great weapon mastery should expect every single enemy ever to have 25 AC to make sure his feat isn't useful. it is not the DM's responsibility to make sure the world punishes the player's decisions or renders the character ineffective (except for the rare occasions when it legitimately is, which should generally only be when they're facing a specific recurring enemy).

if your DM sucks, the solution is to leave the table. there is no need to discuss the problem of your DM being a giant turd and refusing to let you use your abilities in a rogue guide (or any class guide for that matter), because the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the class and everything to do with the DM being a giant turd.

and yes, if the DM punishes the player for making effective choices instead of making stupid choices like casting the buff on the person it *least* improves, then the DM is a giant turd. the tactic already has a cost (your concentration, a level 3 spell slot, and your reaction which you can normally use to make yourself easily able to survive melee just as well as a fighter, not that as a rogue you strictly need to be in melee in the first place). if your DM can't handle you using your resources intelligently and demands that you make stupid choices, with failure to comply punishable by the entire game world turning against you forever and everything somehow knowing your exact weakness, then get out. just leave. no matter what you do, you are going to have to live in constant fear that your DM might decide that today you didn't suck enough and you need to be punished for it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The ability of a rogue to sneak attack with reactions to double his damage is a part of the rules. Using fear effects, dissonant whispers or riposte are a few ways to do that. I don't see why haste breaks the camel's back here. When someone plays a support character they expect (and rightly so) that if they spend resources making someone awesome, that person will be awesome. A 3rd level spell is a pretty large investment for a character to make for one fight most of the time.

I'm not saying it breaks the camels back, I'm saying it isn't worth using a 3rd level spell to do it. For what you are giving up (3rd level slot) you don't get much in return. In a typical party, more damage won't mean squat. Sure you can powergame and make sure you do *all the damage* but that just simply isn't needed. You aren't the only one out there, you have allies that are also *doing damage*.

If you have fun playing that way, fine, I'm not saying you can't have fun that way. But it still isn't a good spell for the rogue as you are giving up a 3rd level slot to do *more damage*. The game is balanced in such a way that you deal enough damage already.

There are 2nd level spells out there that you would get more bang for your buck and grab new abilities or features that you didn't have access to before. Even when you cast them in a 3rd level slot they are still worth it.

Blur, a second level spell, is a better spell for a rogue than Haste. Not only is it fabulous when placed on the slightly squishy rogue, but (as an AT) if you are running low on HP you can place this on an Ally and then go hide/heal up. Good luck breaking concentration when you can't find the rogue. Also, if the rogue IS hit, uncanny dodge will help keep the Rogue from needing a high Concentration check.

Invisibility is another 2nd level spell that is better on the Rogue than Haste. The Rogue can BA hide at any time now, they don't have to jump around a corner (or ally if a Halfling).

These spells allow you to do something that you couldn't before, they add to your arsenal instead of just giving you the same stuff again.

[Finieous]

These spells allow you to do something that you couldn't before, they add to your arsenal instead of just giving you the same stuff again.

Blur and Invisibility are fine spells, but if being able to sneak attack twice in one round, every round for ten rounds, doesn't count as "doing something you couldn't before," I don't see how being harder to hit or being even sneakier do count. Of course, Haste also makes you harder to hit and increases your damage mitigation, in addition to doubling or nearly doubling your damage output.

Haste is a terrific spell for rogues. That doesn't mean every AT has to take it, or that the rogue is always the best choice to receive the buff from the wizard or bard, but it's a terrific spell for rogues. Plus, Ready action "Cheap shot him when he goes to attack!" is good fun.

[CantigThimble]

I'm really not sure what you meant by munchkin then if you aren't saying it makes you more powerful than you should be and in fact makes you weaker than you could be.

Regardless of that I'd argue that doubling your movement and giving you another action works very well for rogue mobility, the +2 AC is not to be dismissed and doubling your damage output is something that IS useful, despite its limitations. I wouldn't say a fighters action surge is bad because his party could deal the rest of the damage instead and he'd rather get Ritual Caster: Wizard for the versatility.

If you've got a Shadow Monk or Fey Bladelock (or some other highly mobile melee fighter) you could set up powerful assassinations by one of you teleporting to a target, the rogue disengaging and running 60 feet to them then launching 2 sneak attacks+whatever attacks your buddy has to very likely kill that target before they can accomplish much.

Plus it's a spell that doesn't require a good casting stat, which is nice for 1/3rd casters.

But this is a decision that should be based on your party not made in a vaccuum. If your party has a Fighter and a Blastlock, maybe go for versatility, but I've been in parties where the rogue was needed to deal most of our damage. 2 sneak attacks per round makes all the difference there.

[Nu]

I'm not saying it breaks the camels back, I'm saying it isn't worth using a 3rd level spell to do it. For what you are giving up (3rd level slot) you don't get much in return. In a typical party, more damage won't mean squat. Sure you can powergame and make sure you do *all the damage* but that just simply isn't needed. You aren't the only one out there, you have allies that are also *doing damage*.

I'm not sure I fully agree. Damage is perhaps the single most important thing in the game to be able to do, because "dead" is by far the best status condition you can impose and often the most expedient way to acquire wealth. And if someone said blur was better for my rogue than haste I'd look at them like they were crazy, as the best ways to avoid damage is to not be where the enemy is attacking or kill them before they get to attack, and the doubled speed aspect of Haste will outperform Blur in getting out of melee or getting to a place where you can hide--two things the rogue does very well and Haste allows for further pushing of the envelope. And for those rare situations where you can't, hey, there's still that AC/Dex save bonus.

Control spells have their place (usually as a way to increase damage), but for a 3rd level slot, Haste is a reasonable spell. The usual problem I have with Haste is that giving someone a single extra attack per turn often does not increase their offensive capability sufficiently in order to justify using a 3rd level slot. With the rogue using the "readied action" trick to Sneak Attack off-turn, however, the math changes quite a bit, and becomes a lot more worth it. The only other time I really find Haste a worthwhile use of a 3rd level slot and Concentration is when it's a Sorcerer casting Twinned Haste on two weapon-using combatants.

[Oramac]

Athletics deserves better...you can shove opponent prone and then stab him for sneak attack damage while he's down. Needs multiclass for Extra attack, TWF or Shield Expert to do that in one turn, or a way to keep him down for a longer period of time.

I have this taken care of.

Go Swashbuckler and take 5 levels of Fighter for the Battlemaster Maneuvers (Trip Attack) and an extra attack. Use Trip Attack first, then your second attack get's all the goodies, and you can use Fancy Footwork/Cunning Action to get out and hide before the bad guy gets up.

History* (Int) – University professor by day, fedora-wearing archeologist adventurer by night. Your smart and sexy rogue relies on his trusty whip to stab people during combat and will only rarely reach for the hand crossbow he keeps loaded at his side. You know, if he isn’t feeling well that day or something.

I see what you did there! And I laughed!

[djreynolds]

Fantastic guide. Really well done.

A few thoughts:

1) Remember the SCAG just came out, so be nicer to the thief, its easy to bash on them but they were the first archetype and up until a month ago or so, its what I used as our DM, even with a gun to his head, is a real jerk about PCs getting surprise on constant basis.

2) Mountain dwarf, Half-Orc and Goliath are very viable races and are beasts when they can get a shield via multiclassing or taking the moderately armored feat and then getting shield master, expertise and shoving are awesome together and Mr Crawford's tweet about the bonus action from shield master can come first means you can make your own advantage. A rogue has the feats to take moderately armored and shield master and not even multiclass and can wreak havoc with shield master. A valor bard maybe better at it. Expertise in athletics is that good, golden

4) Mobile can be useful to the non-swashbucklers who find themselves in combat, and need to use that off hand to land that sneak attack and cannot now disengage.

5) I personally grateful you did not include a multiclass section, as it is too much


GREAT GUIDE

[PoeticDwarf]

You rated gold a little bit too easy. Elves are sky blue, some worse and you could say drow is green/purple

An example, extra feat gold...
If I could get evasion (I know shield master), with a feat I should take that feat, and evasion you rated way lower...

Your system is confusing. Why not just
Gold (?)
Sky blue
Blue
Black
Purple
Red
Like everyone in 5e uses. Now it is a combination of two systems

[ImSAMazing]

You rated gold a little bit too easy. Elves are sky blue, some worse and you could say drow is green/purple

An example, extra feat gold...
If I could get evasion (I know shield master), with a feat I should take that feat, and evasion you rated way lower...

Your system is confusing. Why not just
Gold (?)
Sky blue
Blue
Black
Purple
Red
Like everyone in 5e uses. Now it is a combination of two systems

I personally like this color notation.

[PoeticDwarf]

The DM has to ok your ready action. There are examples in the book, but just saying "if anyone acts" is a bit... Munchan-y. DMs don't typically reward munchins.

Haste *potentially* doubles your damage output, something you don't need.

Doubling your damage output will put a target on your back, both in and out of game. You will be seen as a munchin out of game and in game you can get a nickname "patient pete" or whatever and enemies will learn about your fighting style. Then the enemies will plan for your fighting style.

Anything that stops sneak attack will stop this. This is basic tactics that a DM should employ from time to time anyways (but people get lazy or follow published adventures way to strictly).

I don't think a 3rd level slot is worth a huge maybe and being branded a munchin.

WOW. I don't know how it goes by you but if someone's uses a nova option that one isn't seen as munchkin by the guys I play with. Haste isn't OP and haste isn't *for munchkins*. Someone with haste is using options. When I was a ranger (beastmaster, yep weakest comb in the game) with over 80dpr with good to hit everyone saw me as the main damage dealer we needed. Not a munchkin. Our paladin was happy with his nova, the rogue was the skillmonkey and the wizard could do everything except normal damage (magic missile at will from a magic item and using 1/day disentegrate, half the time not on enemies). Nobody thought I was a munchkin with my damage or the wizard with his *I will kill you if you do something I don't like* style. The DM threw some good monsters in and everone was happy

Although the paladin had haste from his subclass

[PoeticDwarf]

I personally like this color notation.

It's a bit confusing for me :/
Sorry for my double post, can't doublequote now because I posted another post

Post post

[CNagy]

Blindsense – This is unlikely to come into play unless you make it happen. Making it happen can be highly advantageous, though. If you are an Arcane Trickster I recommend taking darkness as one of your any-school spells once you get this ability. You know where your opponents are, but they can’t see you. You can also do this with your racial casting ability if you are a Drow.

Highly advantageous is not a phrase I would ever use in connection to Blindsense. Reread the ability: you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10' of you. That's it. Sadly, "aware of the location" does exactly one thing: it keeps you from targeting the wrong area and missing entirely. You still can't see the creature, and sight is what determines a creature gaining advantage to attack on you and you getting disadvantage to attack it. It's Blindsense, not Blindsight, and therefore almost utterly useless.

Dropping Darkness does not do anything to make Blindsense better. The only situation where it does is when you take the hide action in darkness and move within 10' of a hidden creature (or one moves within 10' of you). Then you get to know and attack the square the opponent is in, but the opponent has to guess which one you are in. That's great... except neither of you can see each other, and while the disadvantage and advantage cancel each other out, the fact that there is disadvantage attached to the roll negates any use of Sneak Attack--which is the bread and butter of your existence as a Rogue.


Alert is a much better feat than you give it credit for. Most of the time, when a creature is getting advantage on attacks against my players, it is because the creature is attacking unseen. Removing that, and never being surprised, makes a Rogue basically ambush-proof. The +5 initiative (plus their naturally high Dex) gives them a shot at foiling an ambush before it has even sprung, especially if they have spells (and especially especially if they haven't neglected their Intelligence and have some crowd control spells).

Now granted, the negating advantage part of the feat becomes redundant once you get Elusive, but only if a) you actually get to 18th level and b) you haven't decided to multiclass instead of going pure Rogue.

[SilverCBFox]

Highly advantageous is not a phrase I would ever use in connection to Blindsense. Reread the ability: you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10' of you. That's it. Sadly, "aware of the location" does exactly one thing: it keeps you from targeting the wrong area and missing entirely. You still can't see the creature, and sight is what determines a creature gaining advantage to attack on you and you getting disadvantage to attack it. It's Blindsense, not Blindsight, and therefore almost utterly useless.

Dropping Darkness does not do anything to make Blindsense better. The only situation where it does is when you take the hide action in darkness and move within 10' of a hidden creature (or one moves within 10' of you). Then you get to know and attack the square the opponent is in, but the opponent has to guess which one you are in. That's great... except neither of you can see each other, and while the disadvantage and advantage cancel each other out, the fact that there is disadvantage attached to the roll negates any use of Sneak Attack--which is the bread and butter of your existence as a Rogue.


Alert is a much better feat than you give it credit for. Most of the time, when a creature is getting advantage on attacks against my players, it is because the creature is attacking unseen. Removing that, and never being surprised, makes a Rogue basically ambush-proof. The +5 initiative (plus their naturally high Dex) gives them a shot at foiling an ambush before it has even sprung, especially if they have spells (and especially especially if they haven't neglected their Intelligence and have some crowd control spells).

Now granted, the negating advantage part of the feat becomes redundant once you get Elusive, but only if a) you actually get to 18th level and b) you haven't decided to multiclass instead of going pure Rogue.

Not sure I agree with you. I feel like the wording of blindsense is ambiguous. While I don't disagree that you are well within your rights to interpret it the way you have I don't think OP is out of line saying what they did. As you pointed out the ability becomes almost worthless if it doesnt let you know more exactly where things are and since its a level 14 ability that seems off to me.

Agree 100% on Alert, though. GM dependent in some ways, but I imagine most GMs like to surprise their players

[Dudu]

Find Familiar – Sexy sexy sex sex! Familiars are amazeballs in 5e. You can use them to scout, as a lookout or even to give you advantage on your attack rolls in combat! That’s right the familiar can use the help action during combat to give you advantage. Caution: DMs who are horrible people (Kevin) will likely target your familiar and kill it, even if any rational enemy would attack the person stabbing it before worrying about slaughtering a helpless owl… I miss you, Athena!!!

Quoting this because I was also considering grabbing Ritual Caster (wizard) for my cleric and grab Find Familiar to get an owl... named Athena!

However, since me and my DM decided that my tempest cleric's god is Thor, I'm thinking in putting a nordic name to her (or it, like how you americans like to refer to animals).


Keeping the subject on rogue, I was thinking in making a Swashbucker/Sorcerer. It mixes better with a bard, but this particular build would use the Shadow Sorcerer and resembles, in flavour, one particular char I played in a 3.5 campaign years ago that I'm very fond of.
Wonder how viable he would be. Rog3/Sorc17 sounds good enough, although you could grab just a few levels of sorc to grab the darkness spell for 1 sorc point and invest more on the rogueish part.
A more melee oriented could be Rog 10/Ftr 2+x/Sorc Y, Starting with Sorc, since he is proficient with Con and his Strenght of Grave feature. Since he has two main stats (Dex followed by Cha), trying to stack those ASI is important (good thing both rogues and fighters get them more often than the rest of classes).

[RickAllison]

Quoting this because I was also considering grabbing Ritual Caster (wizard) for my cleric and grab Find Familiar to get an owl... named Athena!

However, since me and my DM decided that my tempest cleric's god is Thor, I'm thinking in putting a nordic name to her (or it, like how you americans like to refer to animals).


Keeping the subject on rogue, I was thinking in making a Swashbucker/Sorcerer. It mixes better with a bard, but this particular build would use the Shadow Sorcerer and resembles, in flavour, one particular char I played in a 3.5 campaign years ago that I'm very fond of.
Wonder how viable he would be. Rog3/Sorc17 sounds good enough, although you could grab just a few levels of sorc to grab the darkness spell for 1 sorc point and invest more on the rogueish part.
A more melee oriented could be Rog 10/Ftr 2+x/Sorc Y, Starting with Sorc, since he is proficient with Con and his Strenght of Grave feature. Since he has two main stats (Dex followed by Cha), trying to stack those ASI is important (good thing both rogues and fighters get them more often than the rest of classes).

Vor (with the double dots on the o): Norse goddess of wisdom.

[Dudu]

Vör? Nice one.

I was thinking about Sigrun (or Sigrún), also good.

BTW, op, you advise taking Find Familiar (which I also think is a good idea).
Any idea on how to protect the familiar? I believe the owl can fly, help action, and fly back behind you. Is that correct? If so, perhaps owl is the best familiar, mechanicwise.

[Cuddlebot5000]

Vör? Nice one.

I was thinking about Sigrun (or Sigrún), also good.

BTW, op, you advise taking Find Familiar (which I also think is a good idea).
Any idea on how to protect the familiar? I believe the owl can fly, help action, and fly back behind you. Is that correct? If so, perhaps owl is the best familiar, mechanicwise.

Protection for your familiar is something that is almost entirely at the discretion of your DM. You can try doing things like taking the owl and having it hide behind you or fly above if your enemies are all or mostly melee. I've heard of people trying things like hiding their familiar in their hood or a pocket (they're technically within 5 ft so they can still use the help action, right?). However a DM can easily just say that whatever you're doing isn't how it works or just have an enemy attack your familiar to spite you (especially if you're trying to be munchkinly with it). I recommend talking with your DM beforehand about what they would allow and not consider cheese as to avoid inciting their wrath.

[eastmabl]

Considering the name of the guide, I'm surprised that OP doesn't review the Mastermind. Of the archetypes, it's the one which is most like the name.

The guide seems more like "Pimp My Stabs."

[RickAllison]

To be honest, Pimp my Stabs sounds like it would be an entertaining reality show for divination wizards to watch

[Edgerunner]

Observant Feat is tricky and relies 100% on the DMs interpretation and use of Passive Perception. Rating it Black isn't underrating it but it has the potential to be Blue easily, depending on the DM.

A really good Pass Perc can be OP and tedious all at the same time.

Below is an excellent post on how Passive Perception can work.
If your DM does Not want to go into that realm of detail however... just take Resiliant if you need that +1 to Wis.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...t_feat/ckehz64

[Daithi]

I'm going to disagree on the ratings of the Alert feat and the Observant feat.

For an assassin the Alert feat is mandatory --- if you don't win initiative then you lose your assassinate ability. You MUST win initiative.

For a thief (or any rogue) you need to find the traps, hidden doors, etc. This is your job. The Observant feat gives you +5 to your perception. Personally, I'd want a score of 30 for my passive perception score as soon as possible. This makes WIS your second most important ability after DEX.

[Rogerdodger557]

Those exact lyrics were playing when I read the title.

[zem77]

No mention of the Scout?

[sophontteks]

Insight is used for more then just telling if someone is lying (though that alone makes it really good.) It can provide insight into their intentions, their goals, things that are bothering them, their mood, potential romantic intrests, interests in an otherwise mundane object, etc.

Its an essential social skill, so I think green is a bit weak. Gathering information about a stranger is a godsend to social checks.

[JackPhoenix]

No mention of the Scout?

Considering this guide was made two and half years ago, almost exactly a year before the UA with Scout was released...

[KorvinStarmast]

Considering this guide was made two and half years ago, almost exactly a year before the UA with Scout was released...

XGtE has been out for a while now. Scout, Mastermind, and Inquisitive are all worth fitting into this guide.

[JackPhoenix]

XGtE has been out for a while now. Scout, Mastermind, and Inquisitive are all worth fitting into this guide.

All right, let me rephrase that for you: this guide is 2 and half years old, and wasn't updated since. The thread was dead for two years, before people who ignore anti-necromancy rules started posting in it again.

[KorvinStarmast]

All right, let me rephrase that for you: this guide is 2 and half years old, and wasn't updated since. The thread was dead for two years, before people who ignore anti-necromancy rules started posting in it again.

I was not aware that guides were subject to necromancy rules. I thought they got special handling.

[JackPhoenix]

I was not aware that guides were subject to necromancy rules. I thought they got special handling.

Only homebrew does.

In any case, the OP hasn't been around for a while anyway.