Magic Items for a 17th Level Diviner

[FinalJustice]

Guys, sorry to interrupt an otherwise great discussion, but I still don't know if I should pick the Tome of Int +2 or the Staff of Power. Help? :)

[Bellberith]

Guys, sorry to interrupt an otherwise great discussion, but I still don't know if I should pick the Tome of Int +2 or the Staff of Power. Help? :)

We both have said that Staff of Power is by far the better choice for a short campaign.

[ThatKreacher]

By the way, Broom of Flying is uncommon, so you get another rare slot to play around with.

[FinalJustice]

Missed that. So apparently I need recommendations on a Rare Item.

And that's true Bellberith, sorry. Just trying to (selfishly) put the thread back in rails. But I read your points and I'm just about to get the damn staff.

[Bellberith]

Missed that. So apparently I need recommendations on a Rare Item.

And that's true Bellberith, sorry. Just trying to (selfishly) put the thread back in rails. But I read your points and I'm just about to get the damn staff.

Not selfish at all, ill stop posting about it completely. Sorry RulesJD and i derailed your thread.

Staff of Power, Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection, Luckstone, Mantle of Spell Resistance, Amulet of Health are all amazing items i would take. You can't necessarily use all of them, so pick your attunement ones wisely.

[RulesJD]

He would always have a longbow, be stupid not to. And the greatsword is powerful but if he has a disadvantage at melee and knows it, he would use a longbow. That is a weapon switch, not a contingency switch which takes significantly longer and much more effort.

The weapon doesn't need to be in his statblock if you read "Angelic Weapons" and the fact he can use any weapon since he is a PC turned into monster and doesn't necessarily have or use those weapons. You think a Large Greatsword comes from nowhere and forms in his hands? He has to go acquire one. Same with the Longbow or any other weapons he needs.

So, tell you who changed more? you.

Besides, you would require knowledge that you are fighting a Planetar beforehand. Which you are likely to not have. The Planetar can gain the knowledge he is fighting a powerful entity that day through commune. And take precautionary steps to test the enemy's power before charging in.

And he can see you ready action to cast a spell and would just stall you out. Waiting game at that point.

1. I'll grant you Staff of Fire and Staff of Power both can't be taken. So (like we are both ironically recommending) I would use the Staff of Power for the free Wall of Forces. Plenty of slots left for the Walls of Fire necessary to burn down your Planetar in its Forcecage (which hopefully you now realize you aren't getting away from no matter what you try).

2. This is a level 17 DIVINATION Wizard. And I quote: "The counsel of a diviner is sought by royalty and commoners alike, for all seek a clearer understanding of the past, present, and future. As a diviner, you strive to part the veils of space, time, and consciousness so that you can see clearly. You work to master spells of discernment, remote viewing, supernatural knowledge, and foresight."

Literally a master level Wizard of knowing what's going to happen. You have Commune? Congrats, you get 3 yes or no answers. My Wizards get:

1. Contact Other Plane. (For free because it's a Ritual AND a Divination spell to boot) 5 yes or no answers. No penalty for asking this again and again, unlike Commune. So right off the bat if you're trying to argue that one of us would know what's coming, we clearly know who that is and it aint the Planetar.

2. Nondetection (last 8 hours) so already your Commune is going to be of suspect worthiness.

Am I fighting a powerful entity? yes
Does it have non-concentration flight? yes
Does it have long ranged attacks? yes
Would it fit in a Forcecage? yes

I literally don't even need a fifth question. And my Wizards will always have Wall of Force prepared (Staff of Power or just regular prep spell), Dimension Door, Forcecage, Featherfall. Those are the only 4 spells you need as a Wizard to beat almost any creature that would answer yes to those 4 questions unless it is a high level spell caster. That leaves my level 17 Wizard with 17 spells he can prepare each day. Contingency only needs to be prepared every 10 days. Wish -> Simulacrum only needs to be done as often as I use the Simu, so already I have a Wish spell just sitting around (which further breaks this encounter). Which means that in a Normal scenario (not taking everything for granted in your favor), I would still have my level 9 spell to play with. At that point it's not even remotely a contest between PWK, Meteor Swarm, Gate (go to Demiplane and then Gate you into a 30x30 room so you can't even fly away), etc.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

And he can see you ready action to cast a spell and would just stall you out. Waiting game at that point.

.....how? He can't move far enough away to avoid 2 Dimension Doors which would all happen in 1 turn. The math simply doesn't work.

[Bellberith]

.....how? He can't move far enough away to avoid 2 Dimension Doors which would all happen in 1 turn. The math simply doesn't work.

I thought this conversation was over it, stop derailing this poor mans thread. And when someone readies an action the other people can see you readying said action. In case of a spell you would perform and/or ready the components beforehand, for a weapon you would ready the swing, bow you would pull back an arrow on the string, ect.

They could dimension door twice in a turn, but they cant use actions to cast forcecage at the same time..... And many of the things you are suggesting require saves that odds are you won't roll low enough on portent to get. And if you continue to pursue him with dimension doors he can have a helm of teleportation take him away. harass you by forcing you to burn spells just trying to get to him repeatedly, while he just vanishes when you do. Very shortly you won't have any spells to come after him with. And regarding the items i would choose, Helm of teleportation would be one of the rare items i would suggest for him if he goes Planetar. Everyone needs something they can just say "Peace" with in a bad situation. He can do this every 6 hours and the wizard would have no response to it. It can harass you for a minimum of 24hours unless you cast spells to prevent it from harassing you at night. But then it turns into a long never-ending battle.

Fifth question would be "can i possibly get in range to forcecage it without it getting away easily? NO"

[RulesJD]

I thought this conversation was over it, stop derailing this poor mans thread. And when someone readies an action the other people can see you readying said action. In case of a spell you would perform and/or ready the components beforehand, for a weapon you would ready the swing, bow you would pull back an arrow on the string, ect.

They could dimension door twice in a turn, but they cant use actions to cast forcecage at the same time..... And many of the things you are suggesting require saves that odds are you won't roll low enough on portent to get. And if you continue to pursue him with dimension doors he can have a helm of teleportation take him away. harass you by forcing you to burn spells just trying to get to him repeatedly, while he just vanishes when you do. Very shortly you won't have any spells to come after him with. And regarding the items i would choose, Helm of teleportation would be one of the rare items i would suggest for him if he goes Planetar. Everyone needs something they can just say "Peace" with in a bad situation. He can do this every 6 hours and the wizard would have no response to it. It can harass you for a minimum of 24hours unless you cast spells to prevent it from harassing you at night. But then it turns into a long never-ending battle.

Fifth question would be "can i possibly get in range to forcecage it without it getting away easily? NO"

1. And yet....you replied. No, you can't escape. If you're now throwing MORE magic items (which your Helm also requires attunement so which attuned item are you losing??) on your character.

2. What requires a save? The Feebleminded? You're at +4 to that. Wall of Fire? +5 Dex. Charisma? You've got +12 base BUT you're facing having 1 Int after failing Feebleminded.

3. AAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHA. So your solution is to run away??? Wizards win. For starters, better hope a Wizard isn't within 60ft because that's getting counterspelled. Also, you do know the Wizards have Teleport without needing a magic item right?

4. HOW? You've yet to say HOW you're harassing the Wizards. You want to talk escape options? Are you that slow?? Demiplace, Mords Mag Manshion, hell a simple Leomounds Tiny Hut and you're screwed while my Wizards sit sipping tea. Oh and no, no you don't get to know what spells my Wizards are readying if anything. Especially from 600ft away and only 120ft of Truesight.

5. You realized you've devolved this into you having to run away? And yes, my Wizards can shut that down too. On their readied action turn (remember it takes an action for you to teleport away and you said previously that you've used your action to attack, you don't get to Teleport away until AFTER the Wizards have had their turn. And I'm done, I'm calling you out for completely changing every tactic you have because my Wizards are prepared to counter it and still ROFLstomp you into the ground. So yes, yes my Wizards have Contingency (Dimension Door) prepared. Congrats, even your Helm of Teleport can't save you because I'll just Counterspell it.

Even if the Wizards don't have it prepared on the first encounter, they just Demiplane away, long rest to change it out, and come back with Contingency (Dimension Door). Please explain now how with 2 Contingency (D-Door) your Planetar would get away? No readied actions so you can't bs that you magically know when to teleport away, and even if you do as soon as you breach 1000ft you're in a Forcecage and two high level Wizards with Counterspell.




Want to know how I know you can't win? Because read back through our back and forth. How many times have I had to rely on some Magic Item or had to completely change my tactics to avoid something YOUR doing? Not once have I changed anything about my Wizards because they are that versatile and powerful. I have a dozen spells that haven't even been mentioned yet because I don't need them to beat a simple martial based character with flight. Nothing you can do can threaten my Wizard, because all you have is a basic attack, regardless of how strong it is. All the +to hit and +damage in the world doesn't matter against magical defenses. The BEST case scenario for you is literally running away, and the average to worst is I get you snapped up in a Contingency (Dimension Door -> Forcecage.

[Bellberith]

1. And yet....you replied. No, you can't escape. If you're now throwing MORE magic items (which your Helm also requires attunement so which attuned item are you losing??) on your character.

2. What requires a save? The Feebleminded? You're at +4 to that. Wall of Fire? +5 Dex. Charisma? You've got +12 base BUT you're facing having 1 Int after failing Feebleminded.

3. AAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHAHA. So your solution is to run away??? Wizards win. For starters, better hope a Wizard isn't within 60ft because that's getting counterspelled. Also, you do know the Wizards have Teleport without needing a magic item right?

4. HOW? You've yet to say HOW you're harassing the Wizards. You want to talk escape options? Are you that slow?? Demiplace, Mords Mag Manshion, hell a simple Leomounds Tiny Hut and you're screwed while my Wizards sit sipping tea. Oh and no, no you don't get to know what spells my Wizards are readying if anything. Especially from 600ft away and only 120ft of Truesight.

5. You realized you've devolved this into you having to run away? And yes, my Wizards can shut that down too. On their readied action turn (remember it takes an action for you to teleport away and you said previously that you've used your action to attack, you don't get to Teleport away until AFTER the Wizards have had their turn. And I'm done, I'm calling you out for completely changing every tactic you have because my Wizards are prepared to counter it and still ROFLstomp you into the ground. So yes, yes my Wizards have Contingency (Dimension Door) prepared. Congrats, even your Helm of Teleport can't save you because I'll just Counterspell it.

Even if the Wizards don't have it prepared on the first encounter, they just Demiplane away, long rest to change it out, and come back with Contingency (Dimension Door). Please explain now how with 2 Contingency (D-Door) your Planetar would get away? No readied actions so you can't bs that you magically know when to teleport away, and even if you do as soon as you breach 1000ft you're in a Forcecage and two high level Wizards with Counterspell.




Want to know how I know you can't win? Because read back through our back and forth. How many times have I had to rely on some Magic Item or had to completely change my tactics to avoid something YOUR doing? Not once have I changed anything about my Wizards because they are that versatile and powerful. I have a dozen spells that haven't even been mentioned yet because I don't need them to beat a simple martial based character with flight. Nothing you can do can threaten my Wizard, because all you have is a basic attack, regardless of how strong it is. All the +to hit and +damage in the world doesn't matter against magical defenses. The BEST case scenario for you is literally running away, and the average to worst is I get you snapped up in a Contingency (Dimension Door -> Forcecage.

I don't know why you are so insistent on this. But....

1. You would normally has resilient sphere on contingency, you yourself stated this in a previous thread.

2. you are forgetting the +5 to saves, but 1 could easily be dropped for the helm, helm is better to begin with the only reason i listed the other items is because the OP had them listed.

3. I never said the wizard didn't have escape options, but its just that, the wizard would be forced to escape eventually also.

4. The harassment comes from range, which you can't reach because your contingency is resilient sphere and you would have to Ddoor twice to reach him, and won't have an action to forcecage, while on his turn he teleports away and comes back later for a rinse/repeat until you have run away or exhausted your spells.

5. Retreating and re-engaging on a wizard is an extremely useful tactic to wear them down and reduce their spells per day to the point where they are able to be killed in a 1v1. Teleportation also works vs forcecage btw.

If the wizard demiplanes away and rests long enough to prepare the proper contingency the Planetar could just back away and wait another day to fight him. Now the wizard lives in fear of the Planetar arriving one day to mess him up and has the wrong contingency prepared if he ever needs a different one to survive. And he can easily find out if you do or not via commune, it doesn't have to be anything specific, just "does this person currently have the means to kill me?".

If you insist, this will be a discussion with no resolution because you seem to believe a fight has to be face to face. Which is astonishing considering you are talking about a wizard to begin with. A fight can be wherever / whenever you hold the advantage. If you must run to prepare a method to kill him, he simply won't fight you until you are forced to remove it.

Like i said before, this can turn into a never-ending fight.

Now, whatever you say after this i honestly do not care. Done with this conversation as there will be no agreement between us.

My conclusion: It would be a fight would no winner over time unless either one does something stupid. The Wizard would win if for some reason it had a contingency dimension door and the Planetar failed its save to teleport out of the forcecage. But only then would it lose. And the wizard would lose if for some reason he didn't have a means of escape prepared so he can batman the fight, and the Planetar harassed him to death. Planetar wins in the per day group encounter scenario because he has the resources to go through many high level encounters per day without worry, whereas the wizard has a limited number of resources and has to rest in between depending on encounter difficulty. You can believe whatever you want, i am being realistic.

[RulesJD]

I don't know why you are so insistent on this. But....

1. You would normally has resilient sphere on contingency, you yourself stated this in a previous thread.

2. you are forgetting the +5 to saves, but 1 could easily be dropped for the helm, helm is better to begin with the only reason i listed the other items is because the OP had them listed.

3. I never said the wizard didn't have escape options, but its just that, the wizard would be forced to escape eventually also.

4. The harassment comes from range, which you can't reach because your contingency is resilient sphere and you would have to Ddoor twice to reach him, and won't have an action to forcecage, while on his turn he teleports away and comes back later for a rinse/repeat until you have run away or exhausted your spells.

5. Retreating and re-engaging on a wizard is an extremely useful tactic to wear them down and reduce their spells per day to the point where they are able to be killed in a 1v1. Teleportation also works vs forcecage btw.

If the wizard demiplanes away and rests long enough to prepare the proper contingency the Planetar could just back away and wait another day to fight him. Now the wizard lives in fear of the Planetar arriving one day to mess him up and has the wrong contingency prepared if he ever needs a different one to survive. And he can easily find out if you do or not via commune, it doesn't have to be anything specific, just "does this person currently have the means to kill me?".

If you insist, this will be a discussion with no resolution because you seem to believe a fight has to be face to face. Which is astonishing considering you are talking about a wizard to begin with. A fight can be wherever / whenever you hold the advantage. If you must run to prepare a method to kill him, he simply won't fight you until you are forced to remove it.

Like i said before, this can turn into a never-ending fight.

Now, whatever you say after this i honestly do not care. Done with this conversation as there will be no agreement between us.

My conclusion: It would be a fight would no winner over time unless either one does something stupid. The Wizard would win if for some reason it had a contingency dimension door and the Planetar failed its save to teleport out of the forcecage. But only then would it lose. And the wizard would lose if for some reason he didn't have a means of escape prepared so he can batman the fight, and the Planetar harassed him to death. Planetar wins in the per day group encounter scenario because he has the resources to go through many high level encounters per day without worry, whereas the wizard has a limited number of resources and has to rest in between depending on encounter difficulty. You can believe whatever you want, i am being realistic.

1. You're literally taking my post in A DIFFERENT THREAD, about what Contingency I would have prepared? Sweet jesus that's desperate. Did you even look at what the title of that thread is?

2. I get more Yes/No's per day than your Planetar does. So yes, I would have Contingency (D-Door). So yes, you do get Forcecaged.

3. Fine, you don't get Forcecaged. Want to know what you do get? A Wish spell, or a Meteorswarm that you autofail, or a Gate. Tell me, how do you counter a no-save Gate into my own personal Demiplane full of all sorts of fun prepared Glyphs of Warding preloaded with whatever I want?

You realize I was trying to keep this as cheese-less as possible right? The reality is you have zero chance, at all. It's not even a competition when Level 8 and 9 spells go up against something that doesn't have those spells. Demiplane -> Gate = I couldn't care less what magic items or abilities you have. Hell I could just Banish myself away at that point. What's your Planetar going to do in a Demiplane it can't escape and can't avoid being sucked into?

4. You want to talk usefulness to a party? Are you high? I can literally just Wish -> Simulacrum the party DPS/Tank if all they want is a high HP/Damage addition. Level 9 spells are literally the most powerful thing in the game, by a LOOOOOOOOOOONG shot. Wish alone breaks the game in ways no Planetar possibly can. Anyone who would give that up isn't even trying to min-max.

5. Just to be clear, I only need my Simulacrum to have Contingency (D-Door) prepared. I don't need it on my Main Wizard (who would have Contingency (Res Sphere). Contingency with the right phrasing lets you double cast in a turn and when I use my 5+ daily yes/no questions and come up with yes to "long ranged, perma flying" you better believe he'll have that one prepared. You don't get to change out magic items and completely change tactics and the environment (who says the fight will take place outdoors??) AND get to dictate what spells I do or do not have prepared.

6. Oh, and notice how I haven't really used magic items on my wizards yes? See the above post referencing cheese. No, you don't get to say this fight will go on forever, because it wont (see: Demiplane -> Gate). Know what else will work? Literally just Simulacrum casting Fly and my Main Wizard casting Haste. Next turn D-Door, Main Wizard can fly 240ft in a turn and still use his Action so he easily flies the 60ft forward and Forcecages you. Hell I could grab a Flying Broom and get the same effect without even needing the Fly spell.

These aren't some obscure spells either. I mentioned several posts back that I had more than a dozen open prepared spell slots and I wasn't cheesing this. But if you seriously thing a bag of HP and some minuscule damage (go check out what an Evocation Wizard with Magic Missile can pump out) trumps level 9 spells, you clearly aren't capable. Hell a GWM spamming Barbarian/Champion Fighter will put out MUCH better numbers (especially with feats + magic items) than your Planatar and have pretty much the same HP/AC in addition to their useful class abilities.

Plus, you can't even level as a Planatar. It would be the dumbest decision to True Polymorph permanently into one. I could see True Polymorphing your party tank for an hour sure, go hog wild with that.

[Bellberith]

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[RulesJD]

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[Bellberith]

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[RulesJD]

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This was absolutely hysterical to read and I wish the last few comments weren't scrubbed. For the record, RulesJD is 100% correct on all of his points and there is no doubt in my mind the Planetar would be toast. But I'd really enjoy you two actually play-fighting this one out. Any way to make that happen?

PS- I came here for ideas on magic items for Wizards and this post answered that too!

[Bobthewizard]

Guys, sorry to interrupt an otherwise great discussion, but I still don't know if I should pick the Tome of Int +2 or the Staff of Power. Help? :)

Staff of Power. For a 2-3 session campaign, don't take anything that just gives you boring bonuses. Try out new magic items that take creativity:

broom of flying (uncommon)
immovable rod (uncommon)
cube of force (rare)
staff of power (very rare)

I'd offer the same advice for spell selection. Don't try too hard for downtime power spells. Instead, take spells that will be fun to use - Tasha's, Web, Levitate, Enemies Abound, Fly, Polymorph, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Telekinesis, Otto's Dance. Things that you can use to make the other players laugh. I do like Simulacrum/Magic Jar combo where the simulacrum casts magic jar, leave it's body at home, and you wear him around your neck until the time comes. I also like using wish to cast simulacrum on the BBEG during play.

[col_impact]

If the Planetar is unseen and keeps himself unseen then the match tips the other way -- well, as long as you make a few other better choices as well. Just an FYI. Portent doesn't work against things you cannot see. I won't spoil exactly how you do that.

Staff of Power is really good. +2 to your saves is HUGE. Also the spells on it will extend the spells you can have prepared for tactical purposes.

Ditch the Amulet of Health, Tome, Cloak of Protection, and Luckstone and get stuff that actually tactically do things.