Heroes of the Storm II: Thread. Augmented. Logical Decision

[Gandariel]

Went 6-4 in placements and got placed Diamond 3. (Was rank 1).

Woo!

One of my placements was with HappyZerg, a streamer /ex SC2 pro.

Right now the heroes I'm most confident with are:

Li Ming
Anub'arak
Diablo
ETC
Zagara

I also can use most ranged assassins, specialists, and most tanks decently.

I don't play support because I don't like it and I don't play melee assassin (or sonya) because I really suck with those.

Kael Thas used to be my best hero, but after the rework (and the fact that it's banned every time) I haven't played him in a long time and I'm not sure I can still use him well.
I'd be very glad to hear suggestions as how to use him now. His talents are also kind of weird, and I don't really see which build is best.

Also, I watched some games in the tournament thing, they were pretty entertaining.
Apparently many games end at 10 minutes in Battlefield of Eternity, because you can make it so that you take the second immortal AND level 10 before the opponent and just push 'til core.

Also saw some high level play, like a support pre-cleansing a Moshing ETC because Muradin was gonna jump in and stun him with his level 16 E talent. (This made Muradin just jump into the mosh pit, get team wiped and lose)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah, I don't think it's worth learning KT, just because he's an always-ban.

I would personally recommend working to learn Thrall at least; despite what Tempest said about him he's still a good all-arounder in HL.

Gratz on the placement! You'll be in Masters soon!

Also, I only caught the very last game in the finals, on Towers of Doom, but it had some absolutely wild plays, including an incredible Force Wall/Sanctification combo that left half of the enemy's team trapped with invulnerable opponents and no escape. Also, so many clutch Mighty Gusts from Falstad, including one that let them clean up the enemy team's remaining three members, who were trying to escape.

[Gandariel]

Ddddayum. i just had a game in Hero league (Diamond 2).

I was ETC, and i now finally understand why picking Stage Dive isn't so completely awful.

I picked Mosh pit without even really thinking, and it turned out the enemies had picked Brightwing(poly), Gazlowe(stun bomb + ult), Li Ming (with the interrupt-y ult), Muradin(Q and talented E) and Falstad (R).

Suffice to say, out of 5-6 Mosh Pits i cast, the longest one lasted less than 2 seconds.
Now i really do feel that Stage Dive would have been a better pick.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Now i really do feel that Stage Dive would have been a better pick.

Until your team tilts because "stage dive trash pick" and "worst etc smh".

[Spore]

I've quit Heroes after finding it very fun as a relaxed alternative to League of Legends. But lately - between Li-Ming's and Xul's release to be exact - I have had terrible teams, salty people to the ground. Additionally I was displeased with their approach to new heroes. Li-Ming was insanely OP at release. I only had fun in QM with premade teams, and I feel forced to play my better heroes in Hero League. Also I don't really like HL because people are mad when you have a bad day.

Can you recommend a return? Is the community still a bucket of salty pickels? How is hero balance right now?

Just for sake of context: My best heroes are Zagara, Valla and Li-Li but I enjoy Sylvanas, Raynor and Jaina too. Hotslogs tells me my QM is Silver at 1648 and HL is Bronze at 1274.

[Gandariel]

Well I really enjoy the game and only occasionally find salty a-holes, but my MMR is a bit higher (2.8k), so it might be because of that.

I do recommend you try again, though.

Right now there is no OP hero, and a lot of surprisingly viable ones.

Li Ming is still 100% picked/banned, but her winrate is very reasonable and nobody thinks she's OP.

Kael just ate another nerf, which apparently balanced him out as well.

Overall, the state of the meta is pretty good.

Since you last played Season 1 also started, so after your placements the matchmaking should be doing good for you.

Also they introduced Unranked draft. Never played it, but looks cool

[Gray Mage]

Li-ming, while good was nerfed considerably. And while you get some salty guys in HL from time to time, I'd say is not the norm (at least on ranks I play). I'm Silver 3 by the way. All your best heroes are viable, although Lili a bit less so, in my experience. If you're NA we could play together sometimes.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

No clue; like, what I see in HotS is still better than the salt and toxicity I've seen coming from League, but it's certainly nowhere near perfect. You won't get a griefer or toxic person every game, but they're still around, and I've run into a few each day I play. (Silver 3 here.)

[Gandariel]

All your best heroes are viable, although Lili a bit less so, in my experience.

Actually Li Li is really good IMO. Every time i've seen her picked she did very well. She counters Auto-attackers really well, has decent damage and her survivability can be exploited very well by good players.

His weakest hero is probably Jaina, and even she is not that bad (she's just a bit outclassed in the mage role)

[Gray Mage]

Actually Li Li is really good IMO. Every time i've seen her picked she did very well. She counters Auto-attackers really well, has decent damage and her survivability can be exploited very well by good players.

His weakest hero is probably Jaina, and even she is not that bad (she's just a bit outclassed in the mage role)

It could be that the players were bad with her as we needed a support and they had last pick (to be fair it happened like 4 times).

[Spore]

No clue; like, what I see in HotS is still better than the salt and toxicity I've seen coming from League, but it's certainly nowhere near perfect. You won't get a griefer or toxic person every game, but they're still around, and I've run into a few each day I play. (Silver 3 here.)

Yeah but I think I'll just suck it up and take the abuse when it comes. After all, everything is better than the League community.

Actually Li Li is really good IMO. Every time i've seen her picked she did very well. She counters Auto-attackers really well, has decent damage and her survivability can be exploited very well by good players.

His weakest hero is probably Jaina, and even she is not that bad (she's just a bit outclassed in the mage role)

I did a quick game with Li Li just now and I see what you mean. 3/20/0 with the enemy Illidan dying 9 times because he doesn't know what Blinding Wind is, the enemy Muradin never stunning me and a party becoming brave enough to dive just enough to get the enemy. Her skill ceiling is likely lower but she allows for mistakes and counters heroes who don't understand her. I still fear me becoming super good with her and then reaching a level of play where her existence is countered hard by pure skill.

As for Jaina: Yes. She lacks the burst damage other heroes have. Her slow is nice but she lacks hard CC and escapes. Wrong position and I am done. Her kit is fine but just not suited for the current meta. I feel Jaina is great vs. comps that suffer from being slowed down.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, uh.

PTR got a huge patch today, so if you want to try out some upcoming massive changes to Heroes, get on the PTR.

They're pretty huge.

As in, at least half of the heroes in the game got some legit talent tweaks, whether it's a few number changes on talents or some honest-to-goodness reworks. Also, some big gameplay changes, like buffs to minions, extra damage on the Garden Terror, and the regen globe/healing fountain changes they were discussing a while back.

[Gandariel]

Yay for globes, meh for Garden terror.

Gul'dan looks... Eh, i have to see him in play to really understand how it works. He does look like a Jaina tho. If your enemy is stuck somewhere, you punch him really hard.

As for the thousands of reworks..

The one i'm really interested in is Zagara, since they basically swapped all the talents. Sad to see Rapid Incubation go </3, it was my favorite talent on her.

Also, it overall looks like a nerf. But i guess we'll see.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah, I played a bit with Zagara, and it definitely feels like a nerf, although new Infest is very nice. Combined with the minion buffs, might make her a horrifying split-pusher. Also, I feel like it was harder to get into the Nydus Network compared to before, but maybe that's because the enemy team had Raynor and Stitches to CC me out of the tunnels. Also, it makes me sad that I can't pop up a worm without creep; I loved being able to hop from one side of the map to the other on a whim. I guess I just have to plan ahead.

Toyed with Gul'dan in Try Mode, he seems really neat. As long as he's safe, he has good range on his abilities, and so he can poke really well for a long time. I'd probably prefer Lunara for ranged poke still, though.

Kharazim's change is one I didn't expect to notice, but it's pretty huge. The quest comes online somewhere around Level 10 based on my one game (which, admittedly, was Infernal Shrines, which is gonna become a great map for Insight Kharazim). And it's like you get Li Li's Kung Fu Hustle about 10 levels early. It is that good. Since Deadly Reach lets you attack faster, Insight lets Deadly Reach reduce the cooldown of Deadly Reach, and at the same time you're also reducing the cooldown of Breath of Heaven. And since Insight gives you back mana, you can basically spam Deadly Reach and Breath of Heaven to your heart's content. And your dash is almost always up. I was outhealing Uther.

[Spore]

I can only imagine a Malfurion/Gul'Dan combo. Regrowth plus Life Tap. Innervate the Li-Ming. Add a good spec and a Tank with shields and you are GOLDEN!

Oh well, in depth Zagara analysis:
- Creep Tumor for free? Good. Finally Zagaras will actually use it. I am quite happy as I often use much mana just on creep tumors. People underestimate the vision and movement speed it granted.
- Baneling Barrage now fires single banelings. Hmpf....idk man. You still have burst potential but don't have to waste a whole "load" on a minion wave if you need just a bit splash.
- Hunter Killer deals less. Meh.
- Maw Damage looks quite dangerous now. This can cost squishies half their health pool.
- Nydus Network looks very fun. But I think you will pick it for the reduced cooldowns and the better creep.

Talents:
Infest as passive on 1st level? Hum. With the doubling of minion damage, people will be astonished. It is a 600% increase from what they are used to. On the long term, Corpse Feeders will probably be the most prevalent talent. It helps soak and gives you an edge in laning early on. What? Mutalisks never time out? Scratch that, Infest + Mutalisk are teh win! And on 20th level you get endless creep and it means it. 2000% increased range? This means a range of 500. Juuuuust need to figure out what range 500 means. :D

[ChaosOS]

You seriously didn't see zags spamming creep? I assume it's an MMR difference, but Creep is the main reason she's picekd in competitive as it's a ward in a game where you can't buy any.

Have not had a real chance to play the patch beyond try mode so I can't comment on that, but I'm really excited for these notes. I'll comment more once I can actually try things out

[CarpeGuitarrem]

- Baneling Barrage now fires single banelings. Hmpf....idk man. You still have burst potential but don't have to waste a whole "load" on a minion wave if you need just a bit splash.

It's basically a Quality of Life change. If you want, you can spam banelings like before, but now you're not forced into it for the whole duration of the barrage, and you don't wind up wasting banelings.

- Maw Damage looks quite dangerous now. This can cost squishies half their health pool.

Honestly, I dunno. Losing the initial damage probably hurts it a good portion. I'll have to try it out. Of course, the strength of Maw is largely from the stasis effect anyhow.

- Nydus Network looks very fun. But I think you will pick it for the reduced cooldowns and the better creep.

Yeah, it's been pretty great having the creep spread baked into the talent. Also keep in mind that there is now no cap on how many Nydus Worms you can have out. In theory, you can cover the map in Nydus Worms so long as you have creep nearby.

Infest as passive on 1st level? Hum. With the doubling of minion damage, people will be astonished. It is a 600% increase from what they are used to.

Infest is now considerably better because it's passive and doesn't use charges up. You just stand next to ranged minions and they get auto-buffed. (Also keep in mind the double damage is only against structures.) Also, the stacking siege damage is really nice too. It's trivial to get 50% or more bonus damage midgame.

And on 20th level you get endless creep and it means it. 2000% increased range? This means a range of 500. Juuuuust need to figure out what range 500 means. :D

In my experience, it was approximately as far as Abathur's mine radius. So, pretty dang far.

[Gandariel]

I actually liked old banelings barrage.
Yes it forced you to stand still while firing, but that just made it more "skillful" to use. Good Zagaras position themselves well to do it.

I'll echo Carpe and say all Zagaras I've seen DO generally spam creep. Not all enemies clear them, but that's another concern.

Also, it looks to me that you can build Zagara to be a stupidly strong lane pusher, but they took out some teamfight power from her.

Wait abathur mine range on creep? That's sick! That's level 20 Dehaka level of sick! Can't wait to see it!

[Gray Mage]

Just wanted to point out, there is a limit to how many nydus are in play (10). It's a high limit, but it exists.

Insfest should also work on catapults, meaning it is very scary to push core with Zagara now.

[Spore]

You seriously didn't see zags spamming creep? I assume it's an MMR difference, but Creep is the main reason she's picekd in competitive as it's a ward in a game where you can't buy any.

Thing is people rarely pick Zagara if I am not playing her. Because my tier is a weird one. I was put into QM Silver. People here play like monkeys with keyboards. Partially because of quests and free heroes of course. I did two games as Li Li, one as Zagara and one as cannon fod....sorry, I mean Sgt. Hammer.

They don't analyze the enemy comp, they overextend, triple ult for a single kill, don't take zoning or CC ults. I won my first game because Illidan didn't know what "blind" was. We delayed our second win because people were afraid to attack the core with 4 of the enemy team down and three lanes of siege minions pushing in. If the Stitches in the third game would have waited until my boosters where active in Hammer to hook me he wouldn't always smelled my afterburners. If people realized that you cannot leave a Zagara unchecked pushing just because a tribute spawns we would not have had a 2 level lead by minute 6.

And that is my main problem when it comes to competitive play. I have played too long with numbnuts. I don't KNOW what good players would do. I have adapted on killing weak noobs.

[Gandariel]

Well you'll only get it easy for so long, so don't take it for granted :P

HL in general is a bit more organized, and people tend to know what they're doing

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Wait abathur mine range on creep? That's sick! That's level 20 Dehaka level of sick! Can't wait to see it!

Yup. At that point, covering the map in creep becomes an afterthought, pretty much. Do you need vision? Put up creep there.

Just wanted to point out, there is a limit to how many nydus are in play (10). It's a high limit, but it exists.

Did I miss that in the patch notes, or is it just a practical engine limit that got coded in?

Insfest should also work on catapults, meaning it is very scary to push core with Zagara now.

I'll have to check and see if that works; they might actually be drawing a distinction between catapults and Ranged Minions, and it's the latter that Infest affects now. Infest used to work on any minion, and it added a ton of damage, so you'd see Zagaras pumping up catapults for a speedy core push.

[Spore]

Hunter Killers are ranged minions, remember that. If you reduce their cooldown and make Mutalisks out of them, an unchecked Zagara can quickly create a big flock of these buggers. 300% to buildings with the primary attack with splash and the Mutas only go away when their target is either dead or they are killed?

I can see a very meta defining push build for many maps. If people counter you, simply nydus to another lane.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hunter Killers are ranged minions, remember that. If you reduce their cooldown and make Mutalisks out of them, an unchecked Zagara can quickly create a big flock of these buggers. 300% to buildings with the primary attack with splash and the Mutas only go away when their target is either dead or they are killed?

They're summons, not minions, so they don't get the bonus. Just checked this on the PTR. Infest specifically affects ranged minions in the wave. brb, will try and figure out if it affects catapults as well.

EDIT: confirmed, catapults are not affected by the new Infest. Which is probably okay, they'd be ridiculous otherwise.

[Spore]

I got minions and the nonheroic tag confused. I am a sag Zigzag now =/

[Gray Mage]

Did I miss that in the patch notes, or is it just a practical engine limit that got coded in?.

It's in the notes. Last bullet point in the Nydus description, right after the increased mana and hp regeneration.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's in the notes. Last bullet point in the Nydus description, right after the increased mana and hp regeneration.

Ah, yeah, I missed that. Still, 10 Nydus should definitely be more than enough for any Zagara needs.

So, pulled out Sonya for another Ranked game today, and I took Ferocious Healing and Leap instead of going Follow Through and Wrath like I normally do. It was a ton of fun, because they had Jaina on the other team. I landed more than a few glorious Leaps that led to the murderization of the other team, and Ferocious Healing is actually pretty useful in a lot of situations! I also was able to use Leap to escape death a couple of times, which was really nice.

[ChaosOS]

Gul'dan trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8g_qxJvT7g

So, new patch is out! Get ready to RUMBLE!

[Gray Mage]

Has anyone tried new Jaina or Zagara yet?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Has anyone tried new Jaina or Zagara yet?

The new Zagara is definitely a lane-pushing monster. Might've split-pushed a bit too hard with her in my one game. Jaina, I can't tell. The change to Blizzard is pretty strong for her PvE, and I tried her out in a Blackheart's Bay game, but I feel like the rest of my team wasn't taking great fights and they also fell behind in XP soak pretty significantly, so we got wrecked.