OOTS #1019 - The Discussion Thread

[KyrtFurey]

[QUOTE=Basement Cat;20315214]Throwing my two cents in on the debate whether Roy still qualifies as bodyguard for the HPoH 2.0 version: We don't know. Rich hasn't revealed the pertinent details so we don't know if Roy's being bodyguard to Durkula automatically transfers over to the nHPoH. [/quote[]

I wouldn't think so. It'd be too easy an out and would render Durkulas leaving to dominate the Dwarven Council moot. Durkula has to think the new HP will survive until the new vote is held.

So - as you say, either Roy is no longer a bodyguard and therefore open to attack as he is now bound by the protection clause.....or the new HP has a way to survive, maybe by turning to mist for a couple of days.

That is, of course, assuming that Hels plan to destroy the world IS her plan. This was a last minute opportunity strike for her, so she may have had something else in motion before that she now thinks is better.

[KyrtFurey]

Except that it's been established that for votes to count, deities must have a living (or unliving) representative physically present at the Godsmoot for their votes to count. This presumably extends to the pantheons, who are simply a group of deities sharing a single representative.

Has it? I thought Roy just assumed it. Yes, Durkula needed to leave a HP, but that could just be a result of the HP can't leave rule.

It seems likely given what's occurred, but it is known for definite?

[Deliverance]

My prediction is: The vote stays in its current deadlocked state for now, Roy finds a way to leave the hall without going through the arches, Roy and the rest of the Order (less Durkon) go after the former High Priest of Hel to destroy him before he can dominate the dwarven elders and destroy the world.

It is possible that he might be able to just walk through the arches.

Given that a situation such as this has probably never come up before and it is unlikely in the extreme that a case of a high priest resigning his position at the moot has been contemplated, and given the rapidity with which events have overtaken them, it is entirely likely that nobody has thought of what status Roy has now.

Assuming that he's not the new HPoH's bodyguard, and I see no reason for her appointing him to that job (if it is even possible to appoint bodyguards after being admitted) and good reason for Roy being able to argue that he is not if pressed (he's a smart guy), Roy is no longer the bodyguard to a high priest, has no formal role in the proceedings and should be allowed to leave by the rules. (It could even be argued that he should be made to leave, not having a valid reason for being present.)

HPoOdin clearly states: Let all who have a formal role remain sequestered here, so as not to influence the outcome. No attendee shall pass through the arches until this issue is resolved.

So one way or another, I don't think Roy will have great problems leaving. If nothing else, he can point out that this is what Hel is taking advantage of by having her former high priest leaving not violating the rules, so it should also apply to said former high priest's bodyguard. Cue all the high priests saying that they never thought of that but it sounds reasonable (or whatever).

[ufis]

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Maybe he had 2 untapped islands?

[Ruck]

And, really, "properly optimized"? I thought that argument was settled in regards to OotS around 2005 or so.

Seriously. I'm sure there's a Giant comment on it somewhere, but I couldn't find it. This is a story about flawed and complex characters, not an attempt to munchkin through a campaign setting.

That aside, I'm pretty excited for what seems to be a shift to a new setting-- not that I was bored with the pacing, but since it became clear Durkula and Gonteratu were going to teleport out of there, I've wanted to know how their plan would succeed or fail / how the Order would eventually stop Hel.

I'm also ready to see Belkar in action again; his character development has made him possibly my favorite part of this book-- because his concern over Durkula comes from the very real place that Durkon saved his life and he owes his teammate, not an attitude your typical Chaotic Evil adventurer would have. Rock on, little buddy!

[Fincher]

Assuming that he's not the new HPoH's bodyguard, and I see no reason for her appointing him to that job (if it is even possible to appoint bodyguards after being admitted)

She might appoint him (or rather, claim that he remained her bodyguard when the high priesthood transferred) precisely to keep him trapped there so he can't interfere with the other vampires.

[ORione]

What race is the vampire who escaped with Durkula, Gontorpire, and the vampire who shattered the orb? He's short, shoed, beardless, and hatless.

Ya know, this story arc is proving an excellent argument for heavy duty optimization.

Why? Cause it's maidenly frustrating and annoying...

I mean, I find optimization frustrating and annoying too, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Oh, wait, you meant the Godsmoot.

[Fincher]

What race is the vampire who escaped with Durkula, Gontorpire, and the vampire who shattered the orb? He's short, shoed, beardless, and hatless.

Maybe a young dwarf? He's the right height.

[talkamancer]

Just noticed Durkular waving bye bye. A lovely touch.

[hroþila]

Aww, I just noticed that Durkon got to keep his first two buddies with him. Ain't that sweet.
edit: No, wait, I totally thought that dwarf girl was the same usher who almost interrupted Durkon when he was having fun with Belkar. My bad. That first usher actually snuffs it in panel 2 of the current strip, when she was just about to make it. A pity, those arrows.

Except that it's been established that for votes to count, deities must have a living (or unliving) representative physically present at the Godsmoot for their votes to count. This presumably extends to the pantheons, who are simply a group of deities sharing a single representative.

You and everyone else who has ever brought up the possibility of Wrecan offing Veldrina are seriously misunderstanding the process here. The Western Pantheon has already voted, and so has the Southern Pantheon. Their votes are final and immutable. Veldrina is not here to vote, but to relay the vote of her Western colleagues. The vote of these demigods is not a tiebreaker for the general, pan-pantheonic vote, but specifically for the Northern Pantheon. Therefore, Veldrina has nothing to do with it.

So it's not just that it'd be in bad taste and/or too dark for OotS; on top of that, it wouldn't even work.

[Nightcanon]

(snip)
I am asking why it is necessary that Durkula to take away the story from the main villain to a point that we have not seen yet. This has happened a million times before, and I would not have a problem with it if it were not for the fact that a. Tarquin already said that was a no-no, and b. the Snarl's rise is a climax that we have been building up for years on end, with no visible indication that it was going to be accentuated by the vampire apocalypse. They are linked, sure, but unless Hel and the Dark One have been plotting this the entire time, it's loosely, and despite the comic having built up to them for years we have not seen Xykon or Redcloak at all. (Even that would not be much of a problem if we were supposed to have the time for such a road bump in the first place.) [emphasis mine]

Rich has specifically said that the plot as currently unfolding is the plot as intended, and is not being 'derailed' or 'taken away' from where it should be going. Xykon and Redcloak have gone to the last gate, where they must conquer the various monsters Serini put there to guard it and then spend several weeks performing the ritual that will assume control of the Gate. That conveniently gives the Order the time required to follow this plot arc (which is the story of Durkon) before arriving in the nick of time on their airship that always does just that. Tarquin's opinions on the matter are of less relevance than those of the dirt farmers in book two: he's been shown to be crazy on the subject of narrative determinism and was last seen ranting and raving because he was unable to bend the story to his insistence that Elan should be the leader of the group that saves the world. Sometimes I think his utterances are there specifically to tweak the noses of those who insist that Rich's story should be written in exactly the way they insist it should be.

[Idiotic_Bird]

Xykon and Redcloak have gone to the last gate, where they must conquer the various monsters Serini put there to guard it and then spend several weeks performing the ritual that will assume control of the Gate. That conveniently gives the Order the time required to follow this plot arc (which is the story of Durkon) before arriving in the nick of time on their airship that always does just that.

And don't forget that the paladin's assumedly went to Kraagor's gate. They split up with OotS... somewhere...right? Dammit.

[ti'esar]

Maybe a young dwarf? He's the right height.

That's a female dwarf. You can see her a bit more clearly in the last panel of 1017.

[Nightcanon]

On the question of Roy's status as bodyguard, I would have thought that the optimum position for the Church of Hel, if it could be made to work, would be for the new Frontarch to declare that Roy is indeed her bodyguard, while maintaining a situation that prevents him from attacking her (the aforementioned 'turning into gaseous form and wafting around near the ceiling' being an obvious choice), and trying to wangle the situation such that Roy was unable to leave. This would of course depend on Roy being unable to resign from the post of his own volition, which may or may not be provided for in the rules. Either way, I don't think it is going to happen: the next stage of the story is pretty obviously going to be the Order chasing Durkula and co to the Dwarven Lands to try to prevent the destruction of the world, and to rescue Durkon's soul from the vampire, and it's highly unlikely that Roy isn't going to be a major part of that. Whether Roy (or Belkar) manages to dust the Frontarch before leaving is almost a moot point: if Durkula succeeds in swaying the vote of the Dwarven Council, he'll likely be in a position to return to the Godsmoot as the newly re-appointed Frontarch, come to replace his murdered predecessor, to take back custodianship of Hel's already-cast vote, if required. The Order's need to pursue Durkula is motivated as much by the quest for Durkon's soul as it is for the future of the world at this point, I think.

[Bulldog Psion]

What race is the vampire who escaped with Durkula, Gontorpire, and the vampire who shattered the orb? He's short, shoed, beardless, and hatless.

'He' is a lady dwarf. You can see her first appearance on the second page here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

Interesting that she seemed to have a cheerful personality while alive, and after being vamped, she's still smiling -- just an evil smile now.

[Roderick_BR]

VampDurkon is wicked smart. He handed the orb to a minion to activate it so he could standby to protect his group, like dispelling that lightning bolt.

[Sir_Norbert]

'He' is a lady dwarf. You can see her first appearance on the second page here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html

Interesting that she seemed to have a cheerful personality while alive, and after being vamped, she's still smiling -- just an evil smile now.

I can see that that's the same character, but what makes you think it's female?

[Emperordaniel]

I can see that that's the same character, but what makes you think it's female?

Take a look at the rounded model used for her body, and then compare it with the rigid and cornered model used for, say, Gontor's body.

[IDrankWHAT]

I have a small theory(and question) on what's going to happen next.

Because the clerics of all Gods (Good and Evil) know what's going on now, I believe that the powers that be, (for Good anyway) will not allow the dwarves vote, because it is not of their free will.

So, that is my question: WILL they be allowed to cast their vote because it isn't of their free will that they cast?

[Kish]

^I think a theory which amounts to "the actions of the heroes will prove irrelevant, the villain's scheme was never an actual threat" is unlikely to be realized.

Oooo. Wonderful as always, Giant.

Edit: Hold on, don't you need to use the same spell to counterspell? How can a Cleric of Hel have a Thor-specific spell to counter with?

Don't know if anyone gave this a serious answer...

Counterspelling Thor's Lightning with Thor's Lightning is one option, but you can try to counterspell anything with Dispel Magic.

[Cizak]

I can see that that's the same character, but what makes you think it's female?

Not to go down the "only women have boobs" route, but... boobs. Plus the rounded body shape mostly used for females.

[Pyrous]

Not to go down the "only women have boobs" route, but... boobs. Plus the rounded body shape mostly used for females.

Also she has the height of a dwarf and doesn't have a beard. Compare with young Durkon and his cousin.

[Sybarith]

I get that long-winded overanalysis is kind of this forum's thing, (the comic updates slowly so this is pretty unsurprising) but I'm not sure why everyone's so annoyed by the characters' mistakes. Not everyone has to use common sense at all times, and the comic is filled with examples of characters being selectively brilliant one minute and then absolutely moronic the next. It's a bit weird that a whole room of High Priests could act braindead for a few minutes, but the plot demanded it so that's what we got. It's not a big deal or atypical of what we've seen so far.

[Bulldog Psion]

Not to go down the "only women have boobs" route, but... boobs. Plus the rounded body shape mostly used for females.

Yes -- her body type is basically identical to Durkon's mother, actually.

Plus, as someone else noted, young male dwarves have stubbly facial hair from birth, apparently.

To tell you the truth, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that anyone could look at her and not think she's a woman...

[hoplathemightly]

I can definitely see Belkar returning to the main chamber of the Godsmoot and exacting sweet re-death on the nHPoH. Thereby suddenly and violently removing any support the Order might get from all those juicy high level clerics. It'd be too easy to say they can't help because they can't leave. But a Belkar style slaying and flaying of the rules due to lack of knowledge would be sweet. That's just a little prediction.

[kaoskonfety]

I get that long-winded overanalysis is kind of this forum's thing, (the comic updates slowly so this is pretty unsurprising) but I'm not sure why everyone's so annoyed by the characters' mistakes. Not everyone has to use common sense at all times, and the comic is filled with examples of characters being selectively brilliant one minute and then absolutely moronic the next. It's a bit weird that a whole room of High Priests could act braindead for a few minutes, but the plot demanded it so that's what we got. It's not a big deal or atypical of what we've seen so far.

"a few minutes"?
A round, or rather most of a round. Possibly part of 2 rounds? Generously 12 seconds with the High Priest of Thor rolling poorly on their initiative as the poor mans held action or very well and going early in the second. Odin's High priest looked pretty shocked back there a couple comics back so this whole "vampires running past" event being, mechanically, a surprise round and the top of the following round would not be in anyway shocking. It would also neatly explain why several priests are not shown doing anything productive, they are too busy picking their jaws off the floor.

[8BitNinja]

Well, I walked in on an interesting conversation about females, that was interesting

But anyway, does any priest know a miracle spell here? they could just ask to de-vampirize Durkon, and I know that Lawful Good or Any-Good deities would answer that prayer

[Breitheamh]

Well, I walked in on an interesting conversation about females, that was interesting

But anyway, does any priest know a miracle spell here? they could just ask to de-vampirize Durkon, and I know that Lawful Good or Any-Good deities would answer that prayer

I'm sure that any of the Good deities would love to help out with that, but there's a particular Evil deity whose will they would have to contend with. Deities can do a lot of things, but controlling other deities is generally nearly impossible for them, as it is for anyone. An act like that could very easily cause another Snarl-forming god-war.

They would have no problems if Durkula was just an average vampire with no goddess paying very close attention to his well-being.

[kaoskonfety]

But anyway, does any priest know a miracle spell here? they could just ask to de-vampirize Durkon, and I know that Lawful Good or Any-Good deities would answer that prayer

This would likely be a case where the unwilling target gets a save, at the very least.

It's also been pointed out that there are a total number of priests who have 9th level spells world wide that lands in the small single digits (like 1 confirmed, and zero with 7th level slots found after non-trivial searching by Haley). There *may* be a couple more, and if they are anywhere they are at one of the 3 meetings. But the High Priest of Thor couldn't cast regenerate when Durkon was a kid. And the gap from Regenerate to Miracle - monster killing/ adventuring wise in this setting - is pretty D*** big. No one having miracle is not only quite reasonable, it make sence.

Also that would be LAME.

[8BitNinja]

Also that would be LAME.

If that's lame, then this whole battle is a dream