Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 87
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    -Sentinel-'s Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Gender
    Male

    Default Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    This article by Gizmodo got me thinking. It features an impressive LEGO reproduction of the Titanic sinking, along with passengers in various states of horror and distress. Many of the commenters (yes, I know I shouldn't read the comments) are expressing outrage, saying that it makes light of a tragedy.

    I will never sneer at anyone for taking offense over the treatment of a tragedy that killed many. Nonetheless, you've got to wonder at what point it stops being "too soon". I think a tragedy becomes fair game if the following three conditions are met: 1) no survivor or witness of the tragedy is still alive, 2) nobody who lost a loved one in the tragedy is still alive, and 3) the tragedy is neither the result nor the cause of a social, political or religious context that persists to this day.

    The last survivor of the Titanic died in 2009. It is exceedingly unlikely, over 100 years after the fact, that anyone alive remembers someone who went down with the Titanic. And the Titanic was an accident, unlike (say) the Holocaust or the 9/11 attacks; I guess you could talk about the lax safety measures of the early 20th century, but other than that, it's hard to bring up the sinking of the Titanic in a present-day socio-political discussion.

    That being said, offense over the treatment of a tragedy doesn't appear to be just a matter of time elapsed. In the example above, I think the medium (LEGO) plays a role. Regardless of the builder's intent, LEGO is seen as not-serious: the characters look comical with their exaggerated expressions, LEGO is seen as more of a game or hobby than an art form, and so on. You can write novels, compose ballads and make movies about a tragedy, but building a tragedy out of LEGO is seen as inherently disrespectful. And yet... if I were to use LEGO to build a Roman arena with gladiator fights, would people be offended on behalf of the tens of thousands who died in Roman arenas? I doubt it. So time does definitely play a role.

    This isn't a "People are so easily offended!" thread. I want to discuss the causes and nature of offense, not the people being offended or offensive. Let's be civil, plz.
    Last edited by -Sentinel-; 2016-01-19 at 05:36 PM.
    Playing:
    The Bloody Crown (WFRP) as Elsabeth Holt, rogue pyromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Oh wow. I will never again underestimate [our characters'] ability to turn friendly conversation into a possible life or death situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Ludo has a crowbar, if that helps.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Toastkart's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    This article by Gizmodo got me thinking. It features an impressive LEGO reproduction of the Titanic sinking, along with passengers in various states of horror and distress. Many of the commenters (yes, I know I shouldn't read the comments) are expressing outrage, saying that it makes light of a tragedy.
    That is an impressive piece of work. As for the commenters, I honestly think they can safely be ignored. Trying to judge the feelings of the audience by internet comments is like trying to judge the average customer by a retail survey. 90% of the people who reply are only doing so because they're already pissed off.


    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    I will never sneer at anyone for taking offense over the treatment of a tragedy that killed many. Nonetheless, you've got to wonder at what point it stops being "too soon". I think a tragedy becomes fair game if the following three conditions are met: 1) no survivor or witness of the tragedy is still alive, 2) nobody who lost a loved one in the tragedy is still alive, and 3) the tragedy is neither the result nor the cause of a social, political or religious context that persists to this day.
    I think these criteria are too restrictive, especially number 3. By these metrics, we'd never have had shows like Hogan's Heroes. Sure, they never mentioned the holocaust, but the plight of POWs is no laughing matter either.

    As for criteria 3, I think restricting things that might be not politically correct kind of defeats the point of comedy. For that matter, worrying about whether someone finds it offensive or not defeats the point of comedy too. Sometimes we need to be offended to be shocked into awareness. That doesn't mean comedy can't be offensive or tasteless (and I don't want to drag the thread down that road so that's all I'll say on that dimension of humor).

    On the subject of "too soon," I don't think you can have hard rules and metrics and still appreciate creativity. Part of the beauty of humor is how unexpected, outrageous, and beyond the norm it really is. It's always going to be too soon for some people, and there are also plenty of people that don't care so long as they get a laugh out of it.

    It's kind of like trigger warnings. You can't censor the world, too much bad stuff happens in it. And trigger warnings create both a kind of fragile victim identity and an unrealistic expectation of what life is really like.
    The first chapter of The Book of Svarog

    “Everything has its time and everything dies.” ~ The Doctor (Doctor Who)

    “The facts of nature are settled within the field of human argument.” ~ The Golem- What Everyone Should Know about Science by Harry Collins and Trevor Pinch.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    1dominator's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    London
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    I do not for one second believe that even 1 in a 100 of those people making a scene are actually emotionally invested in the Titanic or any of the people who were on it or even upset by the diorama. None of them actually care, I'd wager they're all just posers acting morally outraged for the sake of seeming morally outraged.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    -Sentinel-'s Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toastkart View Post
    It's kind of like trigger warnings. You can't censor the world, too much bad stuff happens in it. And trigger warnings create both a kind of fragile victim identity and an unrealistic expectation of what life is really like.
    I don't want to dwell too much on the highly politicized issue of trigger warnings, but I think there's a lot of misinformation and exaggeration regarding their intent. It's not about censorship or about coddling people. It's about allowing people with unpleasant experiences (which we may not share, but should respect) to know what to expect. Those people won't necessarily avoid anything with a TW on it, but will at least be able to approach it on their own terms. Kind of like allergy warnings (minus the life-or-death implications), it means a lot to those who need them, and doesn't in any way inconvenience those who don't.

    I think people would have less of a knee-jerk reactions to trigger warnings if they were called "content notices".
    Last edited by -Sentinel-; 2016-01-19 at 10:38 PM.
    Playing:
    The Bloody Crown (WFRP) as Elsabeth Holt, rogue pyromancer

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Oh wow. I will never again underestimate [our characters'] ability to turn friendly conversation into a possible life or death situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Ludo has a crowbar, if that helps.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    I don't want to dwell too much on the highly politicized issue of trigger warnings, but I think there's a lot of misinformation and exaggeration regarding their intent. It's not about censorship or about coddling people. It's about allowing people with unpleasant experiences (which we may not share, but should respect) to know what to expect. Those people won't necessarily avoid anything with a TW on it, but will at least be able to approach it on their own terms. Kind of like allergy warnings (minus the life-or-death implications), it means a lot to those who need them, and doesn't in any way inconvenience those who don't.

    I think people would have less of a knee-jerk reactions to trigger warnings if they were called "content notices".
    That is correct; they're functionally identical to content advisory warnings on television programs.

    But as for the main issue, I think it depends less on the time involved than the medium and the degree of sensitivity involved. Legos as a medium is seen as inherently comedic and frivolous, because your medium is designed and built as a child's toy.

    It's similar to the time in high school that my friends and I got bored in calculus class and designed a Gummy Bear House of Horror. Everyone thought it was kind of funny because of the medium. Had we built a Gummy Bear diorama in honor of the film Shoah instead, no matter how sincere our intent might have been, it would have rapidly hit "Dude, that is so totally not cool" territory. And I don't know that there was really anything we could have done to save it.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Well, thank goodness none of those "offended" people has ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail, which makes light of the persecution of witches, the legal impunity of the nobility, sexual abuse in religious communities... the list goes on.

    Or Duck Soup, which makes fun of - get this - war! What were they thinking? Dr Strangelove takes it even further, makes fun of nuclear war!

    Build a bridge and get over it. Everyone's got hangups, and if some people really want to publish theirs for the world to see, that's their decision - but I don't see why I, or anyone else, should be expected to change what I want to say or show or do on that basis.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Lost in the Hinterlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    I suspect it has nothing to do with being "too soon."

    More likely, people are "offended" because Lego is a toy and people do not want to associate something light and fun with a major disaster, as it could be seen as mocking said disaster. It would be the same with a Lego model of, say, Auschwitz.

    (A Polish artist actually did make a rather dreary Lego model of Auschwitz as an artwork, and it actually did spark some minor controversy.)
    Last edited by Candle Jack; 2016-01-19 at 11:54 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    And unlike, say, comedies set in WWII, that Titanic model doesn't make fun of anything. And I'd say WWII comedies are actually quite important.
    Secure your own mask before helping others.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Pronounceable's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    you've got to wonder at what point it stops being "too soon"
    Immediately. All you need is to have no care for the people affected. Nobody owes anyone any care or respect, the amount of care and sympathy a human mind is able to produce is limited and you can't blame anyone for not spending it on people they don't know or like. If you do care about the victims, the too soon limit is still absolutely personal and can't be measured and you're not obligated to concern yourself with what anyone might think about your opinion.

    And in this particular occasion, I'm %100 sure the "outraged" people are just internet idiots fishing for brownie points from other internet idiots.
    Founder of the Fanclub of the (Late) Chief of Cliffport Police Department (He shall live forever in our hearts)

    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    As Master Yoda would say. "Tell joke or do not. There is no too soon."
    “Hither came Conan the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand, a thief, a reaver, a slayer, with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet.”


    Spriggan's Den - Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Woody Allen makes jokes about Holocaust, and it's generally considered fine.

    (This could also mean that, if you are somehow involved in the tragedy, you may joke about it and get a sort of free pass)
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK and Bleak Despair battlestation. Species: Spirit-Bound Skeletal Lich (Lawful Evil)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    The only thing I have to contribute is to say how impressed I am the gentleman was able to get the Titanic to support itself at that angle. That's some work of structural engineering, LEGO or no. I think he rather deserves to look cheerful and proud for that effort.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    I believe that making fun of something takes away some of it's power to hurt you so it's probably better to do it while it's "too soon". Sure people might get offended but whatever you do people get offended so that's not a very useful barometer. That's why even though I don't care much for the rest of his career I have a lot of respect for Gilbert Gottfried for having the balls to make his 9/11 joke. More importantly than being a dumb and insensitive joke (which it was) it was a message saying "this horrible thing happened but we're going to be ok".
    Quote Originally Posted by Phase View Post
    The Internet, where men are men, women are men, and little girls are the FBI.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    TheThan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    GI Joe Headquarters
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    The Nostalga Critic has an interesting essay on this topic. While I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says I think it’s still worth looking at.

    Personally I think that when a person looks to be offended; he will find something that offends him.
    I also think there a lot of people that just need to grow a tougher skin and not let offensive things bother them.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Marillion's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    I believe that making fun of something takes away some of it's power to hurt you so it's probably better to do it while it's "too soon". Sure people might get offended but whatever you do people get offended so that's not a very useful barometer. That's why even though I don't care much for the rest of his career I have a lot of respect for Gilbert Gottfried for having the balls to make his 9/11 joke. More importantly than being a dumb and insensitive joke (which it was) it was a message saying "this horrible thing happened but we're going to be ok".
    Very much agreed. In a similar fashion, comedian Anthony Jeselnik has repeatedly gotten into hot water by making a joke on the day of a tragedy. The way he sees it, though, when he does that he's not making fun of the victims: After all, they're not on twitter that day, they've got things to do. As he explains, he's ridiculing the people who feel the need to inject themselves into the discussion of a tragedy with their "thoughts and prayers".
    Quote Originally Posted by Xefas View Post
    I like my women like I like my coffee; 10 feet tall, incomprehensible to the human psyche, and capable of ending life as a triviality.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Lost in the Hinterlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    To be clear, mocking Anakin Skywalker while he's cradling his dead mom is definitely in poor taste.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_69wvG7Bqa8
    A father taken by time, a brother dead by my own hand.
    With this work behold my grief, in Stone and shifting sand.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Cristo Meyers's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Chicagoland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheThan View Post
    The Nostalga Critic has an interesting essay on this topic. While I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says I think it’s still worth looking at.
    I think he forgot one thing, or if he did I don't remember because I kinda just binged 6 or 7 of those: the visibility the internet provides now. Before, someone extremely offended by something inane like, say, a Lego recreation of the Titanic, was probably a single voice in a very large crowd. Easily drowned out or ignored if they even piped up at all. Now? It'll get blogged, tweeted, re-tweeted, facebooked, and before you know it that one voice has found Lord knows how many others and they're going to be heard, dangit.
    Steam Profile
    Doll by Recaiden

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Rockphed's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Near Giant Graffiti.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cristo Meyers View Post
    I think he forgot one thing, or if he did I don't remember because I kinda just binged 6 or 7 of those: the visibility the internet provides now. Before, someone extremely offended by something inane like, say, a Lego recreation of the Titanic, was probabl(y a single voice in a very large crowd. Easily drowned out or ignored if they even piped up at all. Now? It'll get blogged, tweeted, re-tweeted, facebooked, and before you know it that one voice has found Lord knows how many others and they're going to be heard, dangit.
    Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    We should change the collective noun for crocodiles to "an abundance of crocodiles".
    Dragontar by Serpentine.

    Now offering unsolicited advice.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Essex, England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    This article by Gizmodo got me thinking. It features an impressive LEGO reproduction of the Titanic sinking, along with passengers in various states of horror and distress. Many of the commenters (yes, I know I shouldn't read the comments) are expressing outrage, saying that it makes light of a tragedy.
    From what I can remember of the old Lego figures, the originals all used to have the same generic smile on their faces. I wonder what the outrage-o-meter would be reading if the figures were still using that face type.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Pronounceable's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cristo Meyers View Post
    Now? It'll get blogged, tweeted, re-tweeted, facebooked, and before you know it that one voice has found Lord knows how many others and they're going to be heard, dangit.
    That's not new.
    Founder of the Fanclub of the (Late) Chief of Cliffport Police Department (He shall live forever in our hearts)

    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    TheSummoner's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    According to South Park, 22.3 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1dominator View Post
    I do not for one second believe that even 1 in a 100 of those people making a scene are actually emotionally invested in the Titanic or any of the people who were on it or even upset by the diorama. None of them actually care, I'd wager they're all just posers acting morally outraged for the sake of seeming morally outraged.
    This. There are a lot of people who use this sort of thing to feel self-righteous. Because nothing says "I'm a good person" like impotent rage on the internet over non-issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marillion View Post
    Very much agreed. In a similar fashion, comedian Anthony Jeselnik has repeatedly gotten into hot water by making a joke on the day of a tragedy. The way he sees it, though, when he does that he's not making fun of the victims: After all, they're not on twitter that day, they've got things to do. As he explains, he's ridiculing the people who feel the need to inject themselves into the discussion of a tragedy with their "thoughts and prayers".
    Speaking of Anthony Jeselnik, this old image seems fitting. I had to censor a few words to make it forum appropriate... Some people might've been offended by the joke.

    Last edited by TheSummoner; 2016-01-23 at 09:52 PM.
    Quick link for Forum Emblem Rules

    Megaman 9: Mr. Perfect Challenge
    I DID IT!!! I FINALLY DID IT!!!


    Megaman 10: Mr. Perfect Challenge
    I DID... Ya know what? It's not nearly as hard as 9 was...

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mando Knight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Sentinel- View Post
    This article by Gizmodo got me thinking. It features an impressive LEGO reproduction of the Titanic sinking, along with passengers in various states of horror and distress. Many of the commenters (yes, I know I shouldn't read the comments) are expressing outrage, saying that it makes light of a tragedy.
    The "too soon" excuse for the Titanic in particular expired no later than 1997. If it can be the backdrop of a major motion picture that wins 11 Academy Awards, another artist has just as much a right to depict the event as a sculpture made from thousands of plastic bricks.

    Also, the Jeselnik anecdote is hilarious.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2016-01-23 at 10:25 PM.
    Avatar by Mr. Saturn

    Magic... magic never changes

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    People get offended by the stupidest things, and often its being offended "on someone's behalf" like, if I told a mildly racist joke and someone said, "Hey, you cant say that, its offensive to that group of people!" Anyone else remember the honest, seriously meant petition to change the release of the Fellowship of the Rings sequel title because "The Two Towers" was offensive and insensitive to the lives lost on 9/11?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jan 2016

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Spoiler alert: this is a topic I am really interested in. I am, in fact, doing a PhD of novels that have humour + history, and as you can imagine comical versions of terrible historical events appear quite often. So, forgive me for going full nerd on this post and writing at length!

    Spoiler: Nerd mode activate!
    Show
    Now, straight for the core of the thread, I personally think the idea of “too soon” is very awkward. Every creator (but also every victim, and everyone who has heard of the event) makes his own decision. I think it is harsh to tell someone to “get over it”, or to criticise how they have no right to be offended because of this or that. The past is complicated, and each deals with tragedy on his own way. I am gay. Am I wrong because I find (some) jokes about AIDS funny? Would I be wrong for being hurt/disturbed/angry at them?

    I think the problem is partly that the nature of offense (of feeling hurt by the behaviour of others) is deeply personal, as is the act of mourning a tragedy. In real life, usually we know or have an idea about the people we’re interacting with, and hence can control what we say to test the limits of our audience. The way words disseminate online makes it very difficult to have this kind of control. I can say something to a group (say, make a joke about how “everyone knows homosexuals are child-abusers who catch their victims by waving colourful feather boas”… [and I really hope everyone knows I am being 100% irony on this thread :P]) which then gets thrown around, becomes a quote, and makes someone feel really bad. I would feel bad having hurt someone with this, but also not exactly guilty.

    And this is without considering that, because online we don’t have a clear context for words, all readers have a tendency to interpret statements within their own experience (so that very often irony is not caught. All the fake-news that get believed as real are a great example of this).
    In this sense, trigger warnings (content warning, I must say, is a much more accurate term) are useful, because they allow people to know what to expect. And, furthermore, a trigger warning also implies a sort of kindness on part of the writer, because he implies that he knows his words could harm someone, and wants to give them the choice not to be hurt. I think it can be good online manners... Although that might not solve the issue (some people may find it offensive that the joke is done on the first place, and not the joke itself).

    And this whole thing is without considering the role humour (and black, gallows, and all sort of ugly forms of it) can play in allowing a victim to grapple tragedy. It can be a way of putting some distance from the facts (humour can sometimes make a situation feel less real), of venting frustration and sadness, or simply of creating a sense of community. Freud, everyone’s favourite crazy person, claimed in fact that humour was the way our minds coped with forbidden or terrible thoughts. In one example that (unlike most of Freud) makes sense, he spoke of how people joke about mortality and death in order to cope with their anxiety about it.

    When I first started my PhD I considered quite a few humorous Holocaust novels, all of them written by Jews who had survived concentration camps. As you can imagine, they were very, very problematic… But they were also great! And you could see how the authors were trying to grapple with humour (which is, let us be clear, just one more resource of the storyteller, just like fantasy or realism) something that was just too big for simply “use words to tell the real story as it happened”. They were also offensive as hell to a lot of people, and banned all over Israel and Germany for ages. Sometimes I was reading some passages and I had to laugh, and then I felt weird about it (which is often what happens with dark humour). But just as I think a realistic painting is not necessarily better at representing pain that an abstract sculpture, I don’t think this is better or worse than any other choice.

    So, to go back to the original poster, I do not think it is ever “too soon”, although I believe there will always be troubles and polemics about it. It’s just part of the fact each of us is his own individual person.

    That said, I also think your 3 points are perfect for where you can be certain your commentary will not offend anyone. With an addendum, which would be that (4) the content of the joke should not be an act or acts that are disturbing to living people. Because I think people may find jokes about mass graves distasteful, regardless of them being about victims of the Black Death or victims of the Nazis…

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    I think it's wonderful that people can be offended by things like this.

    I'm not meaning that snippy, or sarcastic, actually. I think it is an amazing thing that, if you dislike something, you can just say that.
    There's a lot of people here saying people are "too easily offended", often with "nowadays" added. I think that's not true - I think people were always easily offended, and people will be easily offended. However, I do think it is new that they dare to speak out on it, rather than being hurt in silence.
    These are not new feelings - these are very old feelings that are finally expressed. And I adore that.

    Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make these jokes. It does mean that you can take other peoples feelings into account better, should you wish to. If you're not out to offend someone, at least you know what you're up against. If you are out to offend someone, sure, go ahead, but you can count on the fact that people have as much right to be offended as you have to offend them.


    See, this guy build a Titanic. He got a lot of love for it, and a little bit of hate. Guy's happy, lovers are happy, haters are happy. Seems all good to me.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    There is no "too soon". Only not soon enough .

    Jokes need to be told as soon as they can be crafted IMO.
    Last edited by Zmeoaice; 2016-01-24 at 03:00 PM.
    LoCTBE:Recruitment:OOC:IC:Wiki

    AToM:OOC:IC:Char sheet
    Goblin Tribe:OOC:IC
    LoCRoT:OOC:IC
    Frostmold:Char Sheet
    Plane Hop:Char Sheet

    Colorz:Moar Colorz

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    I think it's wonderful that people can be offended by things like this.

    I'm not meaning that snippy, or sarcastic, actually. I think it is an amazing thing that, if you dislike something, you can just say that.
    On reflection, I think you're right. Thank you for that.

    But I'd put one proviso on it. It's great that people can say "I don't find that funny", or "I'm offended by that". It becomes more problematic when the word "should" gets introduced: "You shouldn't do that because it's offensive". Because at that point, you're presuming to impose your values on someone else, and that's... well, offensive.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Donnadogsoth's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2012

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    I think the problem here is that a tragedy is being represented by children's toys. Granted, LEGO, by virtue of its age, has graduated to being adults' toys as well, but still it's largely promoted to, and perceived as chiefly being for, kids. Viewing a tragedy made of LEGO, whether Titanic or Auschwitz or the Twin Towers, comes off as in bad taste because, were children to play with it, or even view it and think of playing with it, they would likely not understand the gravity of what is being depicted. So that's why LEGO tragedy kits are a bad idea, and why this particular model is a bad idea.
    Last edited by Donnadogsoth; 2016-01-24 at 10:38 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Short answer: it will always be too soon for some people.

    We have to accept that and one has to accept that some people will joke about stuff you find unpleasant. The only thing we should do is if not necessarily go out of our way to avoid offending people, at least go out of our to to not intentionally upset harmless people who are suffering.
    E.g. I will happily make dead baby jokes. I will not make them in the presence of people who have lost a child (and most likely not in the presence of people with children at all).

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Aotrs Commander's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Derby, UK and Bleak Despair battlestation. Species: Spirit-Bound Skeletal Lich (Lawful Evil)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Tragedies and entertainment - When is it no longer "too soon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth View Post
    I think the problem here is that a tragedy is being represented by children's toys. Granted, LEGO, by virtue of its age, has graduated to being adults' toys as well, but still it's largely promoted to, and perceived as chiefly being for, kids. Viewing a tragedy made of LEGO, whether Titanic or Auschwitz or the Twin Towers, comes off as in bad taste because, were children to play with it, or even view it and think of playing with it, they would likely not understand the gravity of what is being depicted. So that's why LEGO tragedy kits are a bad idea, and why this particular model is a bad idea.
    And on the other hand... How about that one Titanic animated movie (The Legend of the Titanic) in which a cartoon octopus prevents anyone from dying?

    I find that... far more inappropriate on a number of levels (not only due to it, tacitly or not, teaching children the wrong things about actual history, but in molly-coddling of the children as well.) It would be no better if it was a cartoon elephant stopping the Great Fire of London or a cartoon, I dunno, dog stopping anyone dying from [pick a hurricane, tsunami or earthquake], let alone if applied to man-made tragedies (i.e. any terrorist attack). Or a caroon mouse finding a cure for the Black Death.

    (The statute of limitations on revisonist history, at least, nevers expires... *looks in direction of Hollywood*)



    (Also, if LEGO did a movie et al about the Titanic officially, all evidence points to the fact it would be actually very smartly done.)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •