Legends Of Tomorrow

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Yeah, "only 2 people could make heads or tails of it" "But Savage already has them on staff for general research and development so he can maintain tech advantage."

I mean, Savage is used to playing the long game.

then why doesn't he have Ray, Stein or heck Wells on his pay roll?

[huttj509]

then why doesn't he have Ray, Stein or heck Wells on his pay roll?

Main characters are always immune to being recruited onto a villain's payroll offscreen, unless it's part of their origin story. All back room scientists are required by law to be nameless experts in their field.

[LaZodiac]

then why doesn't he have Ray, Stein or heck Wells on his pay roll?

If we're being completely honest I imagine it's because Savage has a sense for who is and isn't going to "make waves". He only wants to associate people who'll never really do anything or "fail" like how Ripp only took people who'll never amount to anything according to his history. It helps keep Savage's secret hidden, associating with people who could of gone into the limelight, but didn't for such and such reasons.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Ok, so lets really take a look. Look at star trek 4. Kirk flips open his communicator and it is super sci fi, no one in 1985 knows what it is. Advance the time line 20 years (not today, 2005) and it looks like a rather large not that useful phone. according to Wikipedia June 29, 2007 the first iPhone came out...

I don't know about you guys, but if you went back in time with your current smart phones to the me of 10 years before (so 1997) it would look like something out of star trek...

Now remember that Ray's suit isn't real life 2016 tech, not even super secrete military grade stuff, but it' beyond even that. It is Super Science.

1975 the best brightest person in the world has never seen think about Vinod Dham... he is a genius that one day helped make the Pentium chip that revolutionized late 80's early 90's PCs.

After completing his B.E. degree in Electrical Engineering (Electronics Engg) from Delhi College of Engineering (now known as Delhi Technological University) in 1971, he joined a Delhi-based semiconductor company called Continental Devices as Engineer[11] In 1975, he left this job and went to US University of Cincinnati,[1] in Cincinnati,Ohio;USA,to pursue MS degree in Electrical EngineeringSolid State Electronics. After completing his MS degree in 1977, he joined NCR Corporation[12] at Dayton, Ohio,as Engineer where he did cutting edge work in developing advanced Non-Volatile Memories. He then joined Intel,[13] as Engineer where he led the development of the world famous Pentium processor. He is called the "Father of Pentium"[14][15] for his role in the development of the Pentium processor. He is also one of the co-inventors of Intel’s first Flash memory technology (ETOX).[16] He rose to the position of vice-president of Micro processor Group at Intel.

we are talking 2 years BEFORE those major break through...

the idea of someone looking at my phone (not the most up to date smart phone, nor the most expensive one when it was new) in 1975 would be given a HUGE head start on everyone else, and might really change 2016 science. It just wouldn't be 24 hours, or even 24 months.

It made Savage into a joke "Hey back engineer this thing I think is a from a time traveler, you have 24hrs or I kill you."

technology jumps to fast for it to be anything but a joke of a scene.


I could totally rewrite it to make way more sense.... put it in the future, say 2025. Then his suit isn't quite so cutting edge, and it's imaginable that someone could recreate it and make an army of Atoms...

man that is terrafing... Savage took over 2166 without that... but now imagine if this pushed that up, say 100 years... so instead of 2166 Savage now used an army of Atoms (based on OMACs) taking over easier and now in 2066...

[Sliver]

I've been wondering... Why is Ray surprised that he isn't remembered in the future? He chose to stay dead to society! "Oh, I thought that people would attribute the heroics I do in secret, and the technologies I develop but keep in secret for crime-fighting, to me, even though I'm supposed to be dead." Is that what he expected?

But Rip's reasoning to taking them is that history didn't remember them, so it shouldn't matter that much. But just because something isn't on the records, doesn't mean much, does it? With 2 criminals and 3 presumed dead, you would expect that they would actively avoid having their name associated with most activities, but it doesn't mean that whatever they do is meaningless.

Poorly explained time travel leaves too much nits to pick...

[LaZodiac]

I've been wondering... Why is Ray surprised that he isn't remembered in the future? He chose to stay dead to society! "Oh, I thought that people would attribute the heroics I do in secret, and the technologies I develop but keep in secret for crime-fighting, to me, even though I'm supposed to be dead." Is that what he expected?

But Rip's reasoning to taking them is that history didn't remember them, so it shouldn't matter that much. But just because something isn't on the records, doesn't mean much, does it? With 2 criminals and 3 presumed dead, you would expect that they would actively avoid having their name associated with most activities, but it doesn't mean that whatever they do is meaningless.

Poorly explained time travel leaves too much nits to pick...

I'll admit I don't know Atom's story since I don't watch Arrow and he first showed up their, but maybe he's like "yeah sure I don't care if Ray never becomes historic, but what about the Atom? Why does no one know the Atom in the future, given all the heroics he's done"?

Basically, I believe Atom's reasoning is that while yes he's doing his best to actually go unknown, his actions should still have consequence. But here is this time dude saying "yeah no everything you did is forgotten. EVERYTHING. Even the things you DO want to be known. You could just kill yourself right now and it wouldn't change the future AT ALL."

[Sliver]

Basically, I believe Atom's reasoning is that while yes he's doing his best to actually go unknown, his actions should still have consequence. But here is this time dude saying "yeah no everything you did is forgotten. EVERYTHING. Even the things you DO want to be known. You could just kill yourself right now and it wouldn't change the future AT ALL."

Even if it's forgotten, it doesn't mean that it didn't matter. Eddie Thawne was basically a nobody, but his premature death caused a time vortex.

I doubt that Rip would know the consequences of all of Ray's actions, including those that his name is not associated with, at all. With him being dead, and his shrinking power, there is no reason for Ray's name to be mentioned in any historic logs. That doesn't mean that Ray didn't matter.

Either Rip is ignorant, or outright lying, which he already did, so it is believable. But for a smart person, Ray accepted it a bit too easily...

[LaZodiac]

Even if it's forgotten, it doesn't mean that it didn't matter. Eddie Thawne was basically a nobody, but his premature death caused a time vortex.

I doubt that Rip would know the consequences of all of Ray's actions, including those that his name is not associated with, at all. With him being dead, and his shrinking power, there is no reason for Ray's name to be mentioned in any historic logs. That doesn't mean that Ray didn't matter.

Either Rip is ignorant, or outright lying, which he already did, so it is believable. But for a smart person, Ray accepted it a bit too easily...

Ray may be extrapolating that due to the fact that they're Time Lord's, they're fully capable of having records beyond what actual human history has. Like, Rip says "you did nothing of note" he doesn't mean that recorded human history didn't catalog what he said, he means "we literally looked over all of time, watching you specifically, and nothing you did matters. Everything you did after this point is worthless to the time stream and we could just remove you without causing a single change."

I'm guessing he probably asked Gideon for a confirmation later which is why he's so sure of it. I also feel like, if a time lord said "you're completely inconsequential to the timeline" I'd be incline to believe him. It'd be like someone who's read all of a book telling you "that character doesn't matter they don't do anything."

Like, to use Eddie as an example, the Time Masters would look at him throughout time and see that while yes he himself is worthless to HUMAN history, he allowed his bloodline to persist long enough for The Reverse Flash to be born, and he's a SIGNIFIGENT person in the timeline, due to how Reverse Flash effects the Flash, who is himself also a very important person in time. So they can't kill Eddie, but they could kill say...random stoner number 5 like the Time Hunter did in the first episode.

[Sliver]

Ray may be extrapolating that due to the fact that they're Time Lord's, they're fully capable of having records beyond what actual human history has. Like, Rip says "you did nothing of note" he doesn't mean that recorded human history didn't catalog what he said, he means "we literally looked over all of time, watching you specifically, and nothing you did matters. Everything you did after this point is worthless to the time stream and we could just remove you without causing a single change."

I'm guessing he probably asked Gideon for a confirmation later which is why he's so sure of it. I also feel like, if a time lord said "you're completely inconsequential to the timeline" I'd be incline to believe him. It'd be like someone who's read all of a book telling you "that character doesn't matter they don't do anything."

I guess I'd be less inclined to believe a person that seems like he would rather tell me whatever he thinks will get me to follow him than the actual truth, especially since he is no longer a time lord, and that the other time lords aren't really able to stop a guy from stealing their ship and altering time as he wishes.

If Rip can't pinpoint the location of Savage, his target that also happens to be gathering rich villains and auctioning off nuclear weaponry, gathering artifacts in his mansion where there are a bunch of mooks guarding it, having a bunch of nameless super scientists that can back engineer super futuristic tech in 24 hours, and generally kills at least 2 specific people every once in a while, I wouldn't put my faith in his ability to check on all the secretive deeds the Atom performs, their consequences, and how them not happening would affect the timeline.

If Gideon was so powerful that it could tell you how whatever you want to do will affect the future, season 1 of the Flash would have probably gone differently, instead of Gideon being used like a piece of newspaper taken into the past in Back to the Future.

Edit: Even if Savage is such a master of shadows that he can hide his actions from anyone observing from the future, he leaves a lot of marks on history. Even if the person itself can't be tracked, by the shape of what's missing Rip ought to have been able to find him, had the time lords had such extensive time mastery... He seems to care little about whatever ripples he causes. Why not kill Savage himself before he gets a chance to kill hawkcouple?

[LaZodiac]

Edit: Even if Savage is such a master of shadows that he can hide his actions from anyone observing from the future, he leaves a lot of marks on history. Even if the person itself can't be tracked, by the shape of what's missing Rip ought to have been able to find him, had the time lords had such extensive time mastery... He seems to care little about whatever ripples he causes. Why not kill Savage himself before he gets a chance to kill hawkcouple?

For what it's worth it seems most of these questions are getting answered next episode! My own theory is that the Time Masters do know a general idea of where he is, they just can't pinpoint him EXACTLY because Savage is just THAT good. Maybe he has some knowledge that lets him be aware that time masters exist and this allows him to get into their blind spots, whatever those may be. This may be influenced by me seeing the preview for next episode though, which shows

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Ripp trying to kill Savage immediately after he's ascension to immortal hood in Egypt, allowing Savage to learn of his powers and that time travelers exist.

As for why not kill Savage yourself? It's been established over and over again that the only kill that "counts" for Savage is one of the sacred weapons being wielded by one of the Hawks. Ripp could Power Word: Kill Savage till he's blue in the face and he'll just keep getting up.

Also considering that Ripp is, ahem, ripping into them every time they **** things up even a little, I think he DOES care about ripples, he's just really wants Savage dead.

[Hopeless]

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Remind me does Savage need to kill both Hawks to prolong his life?

They should have kept to the original story because all Rory sorry Rip has to do is maroon the Hawks on Thanagar they create the Hawk Police (eventually) and make sure its about a century before the Great war Savage was winning so no Hawks to kill no way to prolong his life, so without access to time travel (Rory stops in present long enough to snatch Cisco and imprison Reverse Flash so he can't kill Flash's mum...) He's pretty much screwed and Rory's oh god Rip's family are still alive well OK Savage won't be responsible this time!

Can't help shaking my head at this!

[Sliver]

As for why not kill Savage yourself? It's been established over and over again that the only kill that "counts" for Savage is one of the sacred weapons being wielded by one of the Hawks. Ripp could Power Word: Kill Savage till he's blue in the face and he'll just keep getting up.

Yes, after he became immortal. Why not go back further than that?

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Yes, after he became immortal. Why not go back further than that?

if he cares about persurving the time line he can't kill savage until he has done everything that matters... infact they should be in 2164 or 2165 if they want to stop the 2166 war... 1975 is insane.

[Soepvork]

On another note, no comments on how young Stein managed to wake up, build a particle-tracker-tracker and travel to where the PCs Legends are, and just ends up maybe half an hour behind them?

[LaZodiac]

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Remind me does Savage need to kill both Hawks to prolong his life?

They should have kept to the original story because all Rory sorry Rip has to do is maroon the Hawks on Thanagar they create the Hawk Police (eventually) and make sure its about a century before the Great war Savage was winning so no Hawks to kill no way to prolong his life, so without access to time travel (Rory stops in present long enough to snatch Cisco and imprison Reverse Flash so he can't kill Flash's mum...) He's pretty much screwed and Rory's oh god Rip's family are still alive well OK Savage won't be responsible this time!

Can't help shaking my head at this!

They're doing something different in the show, from the comics. There is no Thanagar, the hawks are an Egyptian prince and priestess. Savage is an Egyptian vizier that became immortal, his soul mixed with theirs. So he has to kill them to absorb their life to stay immortal.

If you can't deal with "the story isn't accurate to the comic" you're not gonna have a good time.

Yes, after he became immortal. Why not go back further than that?

I imagine we'll hear about why next episode.

On another note, no comments on how young Stein managed to wake up, build a particle-tracker-tracker and travel to where the PCs Legends are, and just ends up maybe half an hour behind them?

I thought he just woke up from his bong induced coma and followed them from a reasonable distance. Either way, I guess the guy's just that smart! It's silly, but I think it works given how ahead of his time he's meant to be. He could of made like a tracking device or something and put it in his stuff.

[Dienekes]

On another note, no comments on how young Stein managed to wake up, build a particle-tracker-tracker and travel to where the PCs Legends are, and just ends up maybe half an hour behind them?

Yeah that was almost as silly as bidding by shooting into the air.

[themaque]

Yeah, "only 2 people could make heads or tails of it" "But Savage already has them on staff for general research and development so he can maintain tech advantage."

I mean, Savage is used to playing the long game.

But we don't really get to SEE that.

"You have 24 hours to do this"

"We need like a week to even begin to -erk-"

"I said 24 hours, I hope the rest of you where listening"

Now there could easily have been explanations for this. "The people who lost it will be coming BACK for it and I want as much info as I can before then" is a big one. But we never get to SEE any of those.

My biggest problem with him thus far is we are TOLD he's this master planner/manipulator but I mostly just SEE him being a bully. I don't FEEL intelligence just a belligerence.

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah, "only 2 people could make heads or tails of it" "But Savage already has them on staff for general research and development so he can maintain tech advantage."

I mean, Savage is used to playing the long game.

Spoiler: S1E2 Satistically speaking, having a PhD means you are much more likely to be casually knocked out or killed

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The way Savage treats his scientists, I wouldn't think unique specialized knowledge was much of a concern.

In fact, I am getting peevish over the trope of "big bad guy threatens smart guys into developing doomsday device for him" especially when it's implied over and over again that "management by imminent threat of death" is a way to effect immediate scientific progress.

There is no way that Atom-suit-tech can even exist in 2015, but if it could, telling a scientist in 1975 to reverse engineer it in 24 hours is like telling an 18th century gunmaker to reverse engineer an AK-47 with just the tools on hand.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: S1E2 Satistically speaking, having a PhD means you are much more likely to be casually knocked out or killed

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The way Savage treats his scientists, I wouldn't think unique specialized knowledge was much of a concern.

In fact, I am getting peevish over the trope of "big bad guy threatens smart guys into developing doomsday device for him" especially when it's implied over and over again that "management by imminent threat of death" is a way to effect immediate scientific progress.

There is no way that Atom-suit-tech can even exist in 2015, but if it could, telling a scientist in 1975 to reverse engineer it in 24 hours is like telling an 18th century gunmaker to reverse engineer an AK-47 with just the tools on hand.

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Well I mean if he was really smart and had an AK to look at he could probably work backwards fairly easily. It might take like more then 24 hours, but it's not impossible. We've done **** like that in the real world, people weapons made by civilizations more advanced then them and working backwards.

From a pure scientific point of view, a flintlock rifle and a modern assault rifle work on the same basic prinicple of take hunk of metal, use explosion to make go into person. One's just more refined.

[dancrilis]

"You have 24 hours to do this"

"We need like a week to even begin to -erk-"

"I said 24 hours, I hope the rest of you where listening"

That annoyed me for a brief minute - but I have decided that Ray being a superhero likely plans for amnesia so might have worked on making all his stuff user friendly a easy to reverse engineer (also the lab tech might just have a reputation for being lazy and claims it takes weeks to do even easy stuff all the time, and Savage just got sick of it).

However for the best version of you have X hours I think has to go to Stargate:

INT—SGC GATE ROOM
HAMMOND
Just tell me the minute we can send a probe through.
SILER
That'll be 24 hours General, minimum.
TEAL'C
Captain Carter and Colonel O'Neill do not have that long.
HAMMOND
I'll give you half that.
SILER
No Sir, it doesn't work that way. 24 hours is the best I can do.
HAMMOND
Then you'd better get back to it.

I would have preferred if Savage had been more like Hammond in leadership style.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So about ten minutes into the second episode, and there is something that is really bugging me, it is a nitpick but.

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Is it just me or did they nerf the holy crap out of the Cold Gun?

[LaZodiac]

So about ten minutes into the second episode, and there is something that is really bugging me, it is a nitpick but.

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Is it just me or did they nerf the holy crap out of the Cold Gun?

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Remember that he can't REALLY do anything to kill people. He can't freeze people over cause that'll risk causing permanent damage or shattering, and he can't make it ice spike people to death, so right now he's basically just punching everyone with an ice fist, mechanics wise.

Of course it might just also be that his gun is nerfed. I mean it's not like he killed anyone except his Dad in The Flash anyway, right?

[ryuplaneswalker]

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Remember that he can't REALLY do anything to kill people. He can't freeze people over cause that'll risk causing permanent damage or shattering, and he can't make it ice spike people to death, so right now he's basically just punching everyone with an ice fist, mechanics wise.

Of course it might just also be that his gun is nerfed. I mean it's not like he killed anyone except his Dad in The Flash anyway, right?

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Yeah but he could like freeze peoples weapons, make walls of ice in flash he used it to make Giant Ice Patches. It just seemed to go from "Ice Ray" to "Showball Gun"

[LaZodiac]

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Yeah but he could like freeze peoples weapons, make walls of ice in flash he used it to make Giant Ice Patches. It just seemed to go from "Ice Ray" to "Showball Gun"

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Probably a budget thing then. We'll see him be fancier when he needs to be.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Now after watching the whole episode.

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I can't say I like that Kendra -has- to be the one to stab Vandal, simply because it means that how they finally deal with Vandal is limited to "everyone else is a distraction"

everything aside from that and The Ice Gun being Nerfed was mostly good.

Of course Vandal would have unreasonable expectations of his super scientists, he is bored, after WW2 the world is generally stable he is bored, he wants to cause some mass chaos, the world went to crap in the early part of the 20th century..and he had the time of his life now..things are boring again, he wants more fun.

I like that Hawkman got shanked, shaving off the cast a little is a good thing my main worry about the series is that the cast is huge, and we have a ton of people competing for screentime

[LaZodiac]

Now after watching the whole episode.

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I can't say I like that Kendra -has- to be the one to stab Vandal, simply because it means that how they finally deal with Vandal is limited to "everyone else is a distraction"

everything aside from that and The Ice Gun being Nerfed was mostly good.

Of course Vandal would have unreasonable expectations of his super scientists, he is bored, after WW2 the world is generally stable he is bored, he wants to cause some mass chaos, the world went to crap in the early part of the 20th century..and he had the time of his life now..things are boring again, he wants more fun.

I like that Hawkman got shanked, shaving off the cast a little is a good thing my main worry about the series is that the cast is huge, and we have a ton of people competing for screentime

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To be fair if Hawkman used the weapon associated with HIM, it would of killed Vandal just as well as Kendra's knife. It's a soulbond type of thing.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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To be fair if Hawkman used the weapon associated with HIM, it would of killed Vandal just as well as Kendra's knife. It's a soulbond type of thing.

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Oh I am not complaining about it from a logic side, the logic is sound, it just sorta makes me sad that the plan to kill the big bad of the series..will sorta sideline the entire rest of the cast.

[LaZodiac]

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Oh I am not complaining about it from a logic side, the logic is sound, it just sorta makes me sad that the plan to kill the big bad of the series..will sorta sideline the entire rest of the cast.

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It kinda does, but also kinda doesn't. Yes, only Hawkgirl can kill the big bad, but as we've seen quite readily, 1v1 isn't a fight you can DO against Savage. The others are here to beat him to a pulp so she can slip that dagger into his blackened heart.

Since LOT seems like a table top RPG, think of it like the DM going "okay my players are all invested in the story, this one has some backstory with my main villain so lets make her a lynchpin to defeating her. I'll have to think of some other stuff to balance it out though" and that's why we get people like the Time Hunter and "we get to meet Gray's younger self" and stuff. It's that balance.

Also Captain Cold's player is the best because he's like "yeah I don't actually know who you guys really are in character, but also in character you're part of MY crew, and NO ONE kills my crew." thus making the fight personal for him, making the unbalance of Hawkgirl having to kill him a little less.

I'm rambling but I think you get my point.

[ryuplaneswalker]

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It kinda does, but also kinda doesn't. Yes, only Hawkgirl can kill the big bad, but as we've seen quite readily, 1v1 isn't a fight you can DO against Savage. The others are here to beat him to a pulp so she can slip that dagger into his blackened heart.

Since LOT seems like a table top RPG, think of it like the DM going "okay my players are all invested in the story, this one has some backstory with my main villain so lets make her a lynchpin to defeating her. I'll have to think of some other stuff to balance it out though" and that's why we get people like the Time Hunter and "we get to meet Gray's younger self" and stuff. It's that balance.

Also Captain Cold's player is the best because he's like "yeah I don't actually know who you guys really are in character, but also in character you're part of MY crew, and NO ONE kills my crew." thus making the fight personal for him, making the unbalance of Hawkgirl having to kill him a little less.

I'm rambling but I think you get my point.

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Oh I do, and I don't disagree, but honestly the final battle should be "Distract him till Snart gets a good shot..and turns him into an ice block then Kendra can just chizel out his chest and stuff the dagger in it, but it is not enough to make me dislike the show.

Like I said, it was a nitpick.

Also Snart is Mal from Firefly..except his coat is blue..and his gun turns things to ice, WTB Nathan Fillion as a one episode temporal bounty hunter..and him and snart face off..IN THE OLD WEST.

[LaZodiac]

New episode!

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Our team, willing or not, splits into three! Atom and Martin are playing Trauma Center on poor Kendra. Ripp and White Canary are going super spy into Savage's life to see what's going on with him (turns out, CULTISTS!). Captain Cold, Fire gun guy who's name I can't ever remember please help me, and Firestorm's physical component (I also forget his real name >_>) go on a little side adventure to show us that, as cold as it is, Leonard Snart is the Team Heart.

Sadly, one cannot change fate, and a deadbeat **** up Dad is a deadbeat **** up Dad. Sorry, good Captain.