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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    So the Feat's pre-req is
    A) An Extraordinary or Supernatural Ability. Su for Lich's Paralyzing Touch means it is supernatural
    B) You must actually inflict the "Paralyzed" Status effect with said ability. I don't think it matters if the attack is touch, or had infinite duration.

    So not sure how by RAW a Supernatural ability that let's you permanently paralyze someone with a touch attack doesn't qualify for the feat.
    He's claiming that by RAW the only way you qualify for the feat is if your ability is specifically named "Paralysis" regardless of whether or not it paralyzes.

    Which is why I pointed out that any Su or SLA ability that paralyzes is automatically a "Paralysis" attack according to the glossary.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    He's claiming that by RAW the only way you qualify for the feat is if your ability is specifically named "Paralysis" regardless of whether or not it paralyzes.

    Which is why I pointed out that any Su or SLA ability that paralyzes is automatically a "Paralysis" attack according to the glossary.
    This is what we are going to assume going further. No reason to limit our versatility.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrim View Post
    Choose your favorite source of a paralyzing attack, and take 7 levels in kineticist. Control Body is an excellent power that allows you to throw your victim around like a ragdoll. Target the enemy monk/monster with natural weapons first.

    Use standard concentration optimization to augment it, you're already psionic.
    Nifty. Looks like Kineticist Psion is probably the way to go on the Psion componenent of the three-man team I mentioned in my earlier post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    They very much appear to:



    Any monster with a supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze victims has "Paralysis" Presumably if your "Paralyzing Touch" was (Ex) you would not qualify, but it seems that any supernatural or SLA ability to paralzye counts.

    So apparently, my new answer is forget Lich, just be an Archmage and get a Ghoul Touch SLA. (Or you know, a better SLA that has a much longer duration).
    SLAs don't (at least not without Supernatural Transformation) because Contagious Paralysis specifies (Ex) or (Su), but otherwise I stand corrected. That means that a Silver Dragon's Breath Weapon or an Illithid's Mind Blast qualify as well. Getting the former from just a Metabolic Fire Graft (or a few levels of DFA or Dragon Shaman) for a Cold Breath Weapon and a Crown of the North Wind might be possible if you don't mind needing items to qualify. Polymorph/Metamorphosis with Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer, or Dragon Wild Shape would certainly work. I'd favor something that opens up the possibility of being large, as Tempest Breath+Contagious Paralysis+Bag of Rats (or the classic endless chickens) seems like a combo with promise to me.

    The Dracolich version of Paralyzing Touch is pretty snazzy, working off any physical attack. That means weapons, even ranged ones, are fair game. It's +4 LA but I admit I do love a good Dragonwrought Dracolich Archer. I'm fond of a nice simple Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warrior 16, so you can recall your fancy weapon should you die and have to possess a new body. Not sure how you'd make it work with Contagious Paralysis though, unless there's some sort of fancy arrow you can use to reposition enemies or you've got a buddy who'll do it for you.

    Using just class levels, Binders with Acererak bound qualify. DFAs can get a paralyzing breath weapon natively, but not until 15th. The Ghoul Touch SLA option works if it counts as "innate" for the purposes of Supernatural Transformation. Such a SLA could also be acquired through Dragonblood Sorcerer 4 (assuming you duck out and back in so you have access to 3rds when you take the sub-level) instead of Archmage. That'd actually be potentially nifty, since the stench effect would seem to be passed along as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
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    Backstory:

    Born in a savage land to a minotaur mother and an orcish father, Arrus' childhood wasn't easy. The minotaurs of his tribe saw him as small and useless, while the orcs thought he was a mindless brute even dumber than they were.

    Arrus left his tribe at a young age, and dedicated himself to martial arts. Thousands of hours did he spend punching trees and throwing rocks, until one day he deemed himself fit to explore the world.

    One day, Arrus arrived in a city, where he became a mercenary fighting for whoever paid him. Yet luck was not on his side, and one day most of his company was killed by a group of adventurers. Struck with grief, Arrus tried to drown his sorrows.

    The minotaurling became an outcast who slowly wasted away in gutters. The will to live was gone from his body, and only his love for alcohol kept him going. Sometimes people saw him crawl through dark alleys, a liquor bottle in his hairy hand. Over time, parents started to scare their children with tales of 'the Horned Hobo' who would abduct and eat them if they didn't obey their parents.

    Then, one day, Arrus died. Yet only moments after perishing, his body stirred once more, and Arrus rose again. He looked around with surprise, then drank deeply from his bottle. The weakness of living in filth was gone from his body, but his hunger and thirst hadn't. The ghoulish minotaur didn't mind.

    Nowadays, Arrus roams the world looking for more food, whether flesh, blood, or liquor. Gluttony is his only drive, but it is a powerful drive. Arrus might be a villain, a beast, a wild card, or even an unlikely hero, but no matter what...

    there better be some booze for him.


    Arrus Steeludder:
    CE Gravetouched Ghoul Half-Minotaur Arctic Orc Ex-Cobra Style Monk 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 4/Drunken Master 10/Fighter 1

    Ability scores (32 point-buy):
    STR 36
    DEX 12
    CON -
    INT 10
    WIS 10
    CHA 12

    Feats:
    Level 1: Power Attack, DodgeB Improved Unarmed StrikeB
    Level 2: MobilityB
    Level 3: Great Fortitude
    Level 4: -
    Level 5: -
    Level 6: MultiattackB, Improved Multiattack
    Level 7: -
    Level 8: -
    Level 9: Contagious Paralysis
    Level 10: -
    Level 11: -
    Level 12: Ability Focus (Paralysis), Improved GrappleB
    Level 13: Improved FeintB
    Level 14: -
    Level 15: Improved Paralysis
    Level 16: -
    Level 17: Shock TrooperB

    Tactics:
    You begin battles by charging 100 ft. (not necessarily in a straight line) and full attacking. Three of your four natural attacks can inflict paralysis (DC 25 to resist), and you've got four unarmed strikes from Flurry of Blows, to go with this.

    Once you paralyze an enemy, you can pick them up and wield them as an improvised weapon. This gives you a slight damage boost, and (more importantly) makes your attacks with said enemy paralyze foes on contact. If you want to get even cheesier, you can enforce the rule that a natural 1 rolled by you kills whatever you are swinging around.

    In addition to all this, your strength is through the roof (40 while raging), and you've got power attack and shock trooper. Oh, and you'll also be stunning and bullrushing foes on a successful charge.

    Adaption:
    If LA buyoff is on the table, take Unorthodox Flurry as your 18th-level feat, which should let you make FoB attacks with your teeth. It fits the gluttony theme while also increasing your number of paralysis attempts.


    TL;DR Ubercharger paralyses foes, uses them as weapons, and paralyses more people.
    I think I like the Drunken Master builds I posted above (based around wielding a length of Troll intestine that they chew on continually out of combat) are a little slicker and a bit more effective. That said, neither of them have Pounce due to sticking lawful.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2016-01-23 at 11:52 PM.

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Illithid's Mind Blast qualify as well.
    An Illithid's Mind Blast doesn't paralyze at all.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    An Illithid's Mind Blast doesn't paralyze at all.
    Derp, you're right. It stuns. Nevermind that bit then.

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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    I like that freezing the lifeblood (CW) on a warforged (immune to paralysis) can replace gravetouched ghoul on the drunken master builds and still be relatively effective. Cuz most DM's, in my experience, are more ok with a drunk robot than they are with a PC being an undead.

    On the other hand, I'm thinking about adding a metagame to this silly contest: little things called "Bounties"
    They will start with the next optimize this feat contest. A Bounty is a "winner-take-all" style miniquest for users to provide as many examples as requested. The hope is to allow these "Optimize this Feat" Contests can serve as a longform mini-handbook to the use of their namesake feats.
    The example Bounties that I would choose for contagious paralysis would look like this:

    Bounty 1: Monsters & races and templates that grant paralysis
    Each monster, PC race and template a user identifies that grants a SU or EX paralysis attack is worth 1/2 a point. These will be collated into a list at judgment time.

    The user or users that suggest the highest number receives all of the points, rounded down.
    e.g. if OMG Ponies suggests 6 creatures from MM1 and Races of Eberron, and Zetapup identifies 25 entries from the rest of the monster manual series, Zetapup would win 15 points on the bounty (31 X 1/2=15.5 round down). He suggested the most entries, and thus won.

    If more than 1 poster ties for first place, the pot of bounties will be split evenly between all winners of the bounty. If fewer than 10 points worth of creatures are identified, the bounty becomes 10 points.

    First come first serve, I only count unique entries. (e.g. if john says lich, 1/2 point is added to pool, if Jake says lich, even if from a different source, no more points are added to the pool)

    Pathfinder doesn't count.

    If you are seeking the Bounty, Clearly label it. The bottom of your post should look like this

    Bounty 1:
    Source: entry (e.g. MM1: Lich)
    Source: entry
    Source: entry

    Bounty 2:
    Source: entry


    Bounty: Ordinary equipment & Magic Items that grant a paralysis attack to a character
    For this category: This including Spell-like and Psi-like abilities granted by equipment that can be combined with Savage Species' Supernatural Transformation feat to produce a paralysis attack to trigger the contagious paralysis feat. Custom magic items don't count. Self resetting traps don't count. Spell completion items don't count. Wands don't count. Staves don't count. Each singular item that produces a paralysis effect is worth 1/2 point.

    Assuming that a DM permits this combo, having a list of magic items that can produce a paralytic effect would be useful for optimizing this feat.

    The user or users that suggest the highest number receives all of the points, rounded down.
    e.g. if OMG Ponies suggests 6 items from Arms and Equipment and Drow of the Underdark, and Zetapup identifies 25 entries from the Magic Item Compendium, Zetapup would win 15 points on the bounty (31 X 1/2=15.5 round down). He suggested the most entries, and thus won.

    If more than 1 poster ties for first place, the pot of bounties will be split evenly between all winners of the bounty. If fewer than 10 points worth of creatures are identified, the bounty becomes 10 points.

    First come first serve, I only count unique entries. (e.g. if john says, 1/2 point is added to pool, if Jake says lich, even if from a different source, no more points are added to the pool)

    Pathfinder doesn't count.

    If you are seeking the Bounty, Clearly label it. The bottom of your post should look like this

    Bounty 1:
    Source: entry (e.g. MM1: Lich)
    Source: entry
    Source: entry

    Bounty 2:
    Source: entry

    Again, This is not in effect for this particular optimize this feat contest. This is an example. But I will have bounties available starting with the next contest.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-24 at 01:06 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I like that freezing the lifeblood (CW) on a warforged (immune to paralysis) can replace gravetouched ghoul on the drunken master builds and still be relatively effective. Cuz most DM's, in my experience, are more ok with a drunk robot than they are with a PC being an undead.
    Unfortunately, this is only the case if we're ruling that all (Ex) abilities that paralyze are valid as well as (Su) abilities, which is not as clear. As Beheld's post notes, the text he quoted only mentions (Su) and (Sp) abilities.

    It's also really hard to meet the Wis prereq on a Warforged. Dragonwrought Kobolds are immune to paralysis as well, and might be a better choice.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2016-01-24 at 12:13 AM.

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Unfortunately, this is only the case if we're ruling that all (Ex) abilities that paralyze are valid as well as (Su) abilities, which is not as clear. As Beheld's post notes, the text he quoted only mentions (Su) and (Sp) abilities.

    It's also really hard to meet the Wis prereq on a Warforged. Dragonwrought Kobolds are immune to paralysis as well, and might be a better choice.
    The text for the feat specifically allows Su and Ex abilities. We are explicitly allowing any effect that results in the paralysis condition, not just abilities entitled "Paralysis."

    For Builds, we can assume that supernatural transformation can turn a spell like or psi-like ability into a supernatural ability that can be used in conjunction with Contagious Paralysis. The exception to this is using manifesting in general or (arcane/divine) magic or infusions in general to produce paralysis. For example: getting the innate spell feat to make a single spell into an SLA in conjunction with supernatural transformation would totally count. Having access to a spell that causes paralysis on your spell list as a sorcerer or cleric and having the supernatural transformation feat will not count in regards to being able to trigger contagious paralysis.
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-24 at 12:54 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Drunken Master to get the same reach as the size of your weapon, plus spool of endless rope, great cleave, and great throw. Great throw allows you to put a creature you drop - typically by reducing it below 0 hit points, but today by tripping it - you get a new, free action against it. Paralyse a creature, so that you always pass your trip attacks against it, and then trip it, putting it on top of another creature you want to paralyse. You've just tripped the creature, so it's dropped, so you can trip it again, and dump it on another creature you want to paralyse.
    I'm sorry, but the bolded part doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleave
    Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
    You aren't dealing a creature enough damage to make it drop. The amount of damage you are dealing is completely irrelevant to the question: 'did I drop a creature'. If it said something like 'if you drop a creature' or 'if your damage-dealing attack drops a creature' I'd agree with you, but RAW the trick doesn't work.

    But don't give up hope! There should be an item/weapon/class that lets you attempt a trip every time you deal damage to a creature, right?
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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    I'm sorry, but the bolded part doesn't work.



    You aren't dealing a creature enough damage to make it drop. The amount of damage you are dealing is completely irrelevant to the question: 'did I drop a creature'. If it said something like 'if you drop a creature' or 'if your damage-dealing attack drops a creature' I'd agree with you, but RAW the trick doesn't work.
    Well actually, that just means that the great cleave feat is utterly stupid, because you get a free attack each time you deal zero or more damage to a creature, because that's enough to make it drop.

    Like I said, though, you can just plonk the guy 5 feet in the air, and AoO him when he comes down with your epic combat reflexes because although your trippy throw doesn't provoke, the fall does.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    The text for the feat specifically allows Su and Ex abilities. We are explicitly allowing any effect that results in the paralysis condition, not just abilities entitled "Paralysis."

    For Builds, we can assume that supernatural transformation can turn a spell like or psi-like ability into a supernatural ability that can be used in conjunction with Contagious Paralysis. The exception to this is using manifesting in general or (arcane/divine) magic or infusions in general to produce paralysis. For example: getting the innate spell feat to make a single spell into an SLA in conjunction with supernatural transformation would totally count. Having access to a spell that causes paralysis on your spell list as a sorcerer or cleric and having the supernatural transformation feat will not count in regards to being able to trigger contagious paralysis.
    Okay, cool.

    My first Drunken Master is pretty feat tight, so it's hard to convert the Gravetouched Ghoul LA into anything too great (point buy is likely a bit tight too, especially if we need 17 Wis). Most likely we just add a few strategically placed levels in Fighter to shuffle feats around and fit in Stunning Fist and Freezing the Lifeblood. That also means needing to get immunity to paralysis from items. Flaws could cover the feat issues involved in switching over to being a Warforged (assuming also a a lack of multiclass penalties), though the racial Wis penalty is still painful unless we can fit a LA+0 Wis increasing template into the mix. Using our second flaw on this Warforged (and swapping the Fighter levels for PsyWar levels), we can convert Dodge into the Midnight Dodge+Psycarnum Infusion combo to kick Deceptive Dodging up a notch.

    My Dungeoncrasher should be able to stomach losing a feat by being a Warforged and opening up Warforged Juggernaut helps lessen the sting of that Wis penalty. It could, I suppose, also trade in the Gravetouched Ghoul LA for 2 levels in the Half-Dragon savage progression, though that's basically an entirely negative trade-off. Duergar are immune to Paralysis as it turns out, and the Psionic version is are actually pretty decent, especially if you have a few feats to spare on Duergar Expansion. Being naturally Psionic opens up the Midnight Dodge+Psycarnum Infusion+Deceptive Dodge combo as well. Let's see...

    Spoiler
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    Psionic Duergar Monk 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Drunken Master 4
    1. Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Midnight Dodge
    2. Monk 2 -
    3. Fighter 1 - Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
    4. Fighter 2
    5. Fighter 3
    6. Fighter 4 - Combat Expertise, Great Fortitude
    7. Drunken Master 1
    8. Drunken Master 2
    9. Drunken Master 3 - Duergar Expansion
    10. Drunken Master 4
    11. Fighter 5
    12. Fighter 6 - Freezing the Lifeblood
    13. PsyWar 1 - Deceptive Dodge
    14. PsyWar 2 - Psycarnum Infusion
    15. PsyWar 3 - Contagious Paralysis
    16. PsyWar 4
    17. PsyWar 5 - Duergar Expansion
    18. Drunken Master 5 - Knockback or Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)
    19. Drunken Master 6


    Neither does well with the effective loss of two feats and small size involved in being a Dragonwrought Kobold, unfortunately. Small size (not to mention low Str) messes with most of non-casting mechanisms for moving enemies around the battlefield in general. I suppose a Kobold could focus on Deceptive Dodge/Manticore Parry/Scorpion Parry/Elusive Target type stuff, though that's pretty feat intensive, especially if you're trying to squeeze into Master of Nine for more fancy counters.

    This certainly helps with the Tempest Breath build though, especially if you don't mind item-based qualification (Metabolic Fire Graft+Crown of the North Wind). Two more class levels and removing any need for Breath of Unlife is helpful indeed. We could even be good aligned and use Dragonborn to have a breath weapon in early levels to qualify for metabreath feats before the graft is applied.

    Spoiler
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    Dragonborn Half-Ogre PsyWar 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6
    1. PsyWar 1 - Tempest Breath, Power Attack
    2. PsyWar 2 - Improved Bull Rush
    3. PsyWar 3 - Clinging Breath
    4. PsyWar 4
    5. Fighter 1 -
    6. Fighter 2 - Knockback
    7. Fighter 3.
    8. Fighter 4 - Shock Trooper
    9. PsyWar 5 - Practiced Manifester, Lingering Breath
    10. Fighter 5
    11. Fighter 6
    12. PsyWar 6 - Contagious Paralysis

    With Dragon Magazine available, switch to Dragonborn Half-Minotaur Mongrelfolk Commoner 1/PsyWar 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6. Chicken Infested gets one extra feat, which can be spent on Enlarge Breath. Further levels probably go into more PsyWar for utility powers and a few more feats that fit well, while regular feats from levels go to more metabreath (with one more flaw the Dragon Magazine version can actually fit the feat tree for Extend Spreading Breath, which would mean a 240ft radius Hurricane of Paralysis and Chickens that serve as Paralysis vectors that lasts for several rounds.


    EDIT: The Assassin Death Attack is untagged, but the Black Dog version, and likely most other instances are labeled as (Ex). Contagious Paralysis might be a handy way of getting around the 3 turn study period.

    A simple enough Paralysis-immune way to get Ghoul Touch as a (Su) ability is as follows.

    Spoiler
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    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer 3/Singer of Concordance 2/Dragonblood Sorcerer +1/Casting Advancement 14
    1. Sorcerer 1 - Dragonwrought
    2. Sorcerer 2
    3. Sorcerer 3 - Draconic Resevoir
    4. Singer of Concordance 1
    5. Singer of Concordance 2 - Knowledge Devotion
    6. Sorcerer 4 - Supernatural Transformation (Ghoul Glyph)
    7. Casting
    8. Casting
    9. Casting - Contagious Paralysis

    If you don't like auto-qualification cheese, a Lesser Aasimar can enter Paragnostic Apostle early and take Draconic Heritage as a feat to qualify for Dragonblood Sorcerer 4 when they duck back into Sorc. No Paralysis Immunity, unfortunately.

    The Telekinesis suggestion from earlier in the thread was a good one. Get yourself a bag of rats and go to town. I imagine there must also be a good way of upgrading the widespread sickened condition from spreading Ghoul Touch around to nauseated but I don't know of one off the top of my head. I had thought Rot of Ages would do it (which would have been really slick what with Black Dragonwrought Kobolds being able to cast it as a swift action), but as it turns out it only stacks with itself in that regard. It'd still be worth it if we found a good way of exploiting the sickened condition though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    But don't give up hope! There should be an item/weapon/class that lets you attempt a trip every time you deal damage to a creature, right?
    Knock-down? You need to deal at least 10, but that's not hard, and this seems to be in melee.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2016-01-25 at 01:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Paralyzing Fist from DotU is worse (shorter duration, longer set up, and more costly) than Freezing the Lifeblood, but has lower prereqs, higher DC, and can are not limited to humanoids.
    Quote Originally Posted by MERC_1 View Post
    I find it very amusing that a very theoretical discussion of how to Optimize Bardic Music, turns into a discussion on how much worms you can eat in 7 minutes.

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Ok. Here is a weird build what I figured out.

    Gnome rogue 3/illusionist 1/swordsage 2/gnome artificer 6
    Depending on gnome artificer rules, you may need to take gnome artificer all the way to level 9.

    The errata for magic of Faerun allows: “Add after the first sentence: An artificer may research additional device powers as if they were spells.” Which means that we can use spells up to level 4 as EX spell completion abilities.

    And chances are that our Familiar can do the same.

    Level Class Feat BAB Class abilities & misc. Spells/Maneuvers/Device Powers
    1
    Poison Use (DotU) Martial (UA) Rogue 1 Lightning Reflexes (1), bonus fighter
    0
    Poison Use, Bonus Feat.
    2
    Spell Reflection (CM) Martial Rogue 2 bonus fighter
    1
    Spell Reflection: Bonus feat
    3
    Gnome illusionist sub level (RoS), Focused Specialist (UA), Combat Wizard bonus fighter, Precocious Apprentice (3)
    1
    Focused Specialist: Replaces: You lose one spell slot from each level of wizard spells you can cast.You can prepare two additional spells of your specialty school per spell level each day. These extra spells are in addition to those normally granted to a specialist wizard. Ban Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment.
    Gnome Illusion Spells: A gnome illusionist who takes the 1st-level racial substitution level uses her wizard level as the caster level for her racial spell-like abilities. In addition, she can prepare and cast the following illusion spells at the indicated spell level, rather than at their normal spell level: 0 level: silent image, ventriloquism 1st level: Leomund’s trap, minor image 2nd level: illusory script, major image Conjuration cast at -1 level.
    Familiar
    0: 2, 3 All 0 levels, including silent image and ventriloquism
    1: 1, 3 3 first level spells, including: Leomunds Trap, Minor image, Truestrike
    2: 1, 3 1 2nd level spell: Major image
    4
    Quick Fingers (Ds p.13), Martial rogue 3
    2
    Quick Fingers: When you use Disable Device to disarm a trap, the time required to perform the check is reduced.
    5
    Swordsage
    2
    Quick to Act +1 initiative
    6
    Swordsage Skill Focus Craft(6),
    3
    AC bonus, Discipline Focus
    7
    Gnome artificer 1
    3
    Artificer item 0: Launch bolt, Mage Hand, Acid Splash, Light
    1: Launch Item, Expeditious retreat
    Build Mage Hand device.
    8
    Gnome artificer 2
    4
    Bonus item Launch Item Bazooka (Cape, Neck).
    9
    Gnome artificer 3 Extra-ordinary Artisan (9) or Willing Deformity (9)
    5
    skill focus, research ghoul glyph as per “Add after the first sentence: An artificer may research additional device powers as if they were spells.”

    1: Spiderclimb
    2: Ghoul Glyph
    10
    Gnome artificer 4
    6
    bonus item Ghoul glyph light armor (Waist Ring)
    11
    Gnome artificer 5
    6
    Salvage, research hold person 3: Hold Person
    12
    Gnome artificer 6 Contagious Paralysis (12)
    7
    Bonus item Hold Person (Ring & Bracers).
    13
    Slime lord 1 or sword sage 3.










    So this build works like a tricky illusionist engineer. Use disable device rolls on anything you can think of during your early levels. City of stormreach has rules for disabling weapons and armor.

    The illusions are used for utility purposes. Consider taking the UA Illusion Mastery ACF where you give up a specialist spell and in return gain spell mastery with all of your illusion spells. If access to Major image isn't that important to you, you can swap out precocious apprentice for willing deformity and dip slimelord earlier.

    Swordsage abilities offer you an opportunity to take some setting sun maneuvers, the throws of which are very important. Basically, use your sword sage throw maneuvers to heap opponents onto your paralysis pile.

    Once you get to gnome artificer, build yourself a device of launch item, Get a bonus device of ghoul glyph after you research that spell, and do the samething again for hold person. Those paralytic abilities will allow you to begin contagious paralysis. If you expend a ghoul glyph charge on a small animal of up to 10 pounds, you can launch that animal at opponents.

    A slime lord dip will allow to grow pseudopods 1 per day which you can use to load animals into your item launcher. Consider extracting liquid pain from all the sentient beings and selling that. Consider taking a monkey familiar and giving it an item launcher as well, perhaps with a few flasks of contact poison or alchemist fire.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Building off the swarm idea, here is a stub that should work
    Changeling
    Max cha after getting at least a 14 in intelligence.
    Cross class escape artist and knowledge nature at every level. Take the knowledge or plant domain at level 5 to get access to knowledge: nature.

    If you're allowed, retrain racial emulation to quick change and instead take contagious paralysis at level 6.

    1: Dragonblood sorcerer Sub level: racial emulation (emulate dragonblood subtype), draconic heritage (silver)
    2: Sorcerer
    3: Sorcerer: silver dragon lineage
    4: Dragonblood Sub level
    5: Sorcerer, Domain access ACF (CC) (plant or knowledge) Ghoul Glyph as an SLA
    6: Sorcerer: Quick change
    7: Dragonblood Sorcerer Sub level (evil)
    8: Master of Flies
    9: Master of Flies: Supernatural Transformation(SS) (on your paralysis SLA)
    10: Master of Flies
    11: Master of Flies
    12: Master of Flies: Contagious paralysis

    Now you can assume swarm shape, you can summon swarms as per insect plague spell, your swarms can all over lap and you can burn a spell slot to paralyze all adjacent opponents, which, as we discussed in swimby attack, includes the square that you are in, or you can ghoul glyph yourself using your SLA turned SU ability to trigger contagious paralysis, and choose to fail the saving throw. If you are intermingled with your wall of bugs, and they with each other, then you have heaps of sleepy crickets that knock people down for the count.

    Take leadership at level 15 and get yourself a warforged cohort to drag you out of that mess. And then ya'll can work on coup de gracing some fools on your bed of bugs.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Troll in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    I'm going through and awarding points now while I have some time. Feel free to continue to comment, I'm just decreasing my workload for later.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis
    You could combine this with chicken-infested to throw paralyzed chickens.
    There's the unbodied, an incorporeal monstrous humanoid, with racial manifesting as a telepath. An unbodied thrallherd could stay paralyzed inside a solid 5' cube of adamantine, and be thrown by their hulking hurler thrall, while manifesting telepath powers all the time. The trouble is getting paralysis without being immune to it, but in this case, it doesn't have to be your own paralysis. You just need a (temporary) lich cohort. Or a lich enemy, really.
    chicken infested on a paralyzer: 1 point
    The unbodied: 1 point.
    Paralyzed telepath as ammunition: 1 point
    Cohort who throws PC:1 point
    Lich paralysis: 1 point

    Thoughts:
    Synad? Their racial multi-tasking feat seems custom built for this.
    Spoiler: Synad multitasking
    Show
    1/day: Spend 1PP for a swift action that can only be applied to a mental action.


    Chicken infested on a bloodstorm blade? I’ll draw up a stub later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    The most obvious choice is to get some kind of forced movement (Dungeoncrasher?) to force the enemy you want to paralyze into the enemy you've already paralyzed, though it's a little bit unclear whether you can move though an ally's space (especially a paralyzed ally's space) without "touching" them.

    I don't feel like drawing up a full build for it, but you might have some better luck with the Fling Enemy feat from Races of Stone. And/or the Setting Sun throw maneuvers.
    Dungeoncrasher? Bullrush is the maneuver, dungeon crasher just adds damage. Unless you are mentioning the build, which includes shock trooper’s domino rush: 1 point
    Rules Clarification Notice: moving through paralyzed enemy/ally space without touching: 1 point
    Fling enemy: 1 point
    Setting sun throw line of maneuvers: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    It gets worse. You can use the Distant Shot feat (DWK shenanigans) and the utterances Archer's Eye and Sensory Focus to lob paralysis chickens at anyone, anywhere.

    Of course, you can use a variant of this trick to paralyse every last living being in the universe.
    DWK using epic feats & true naming: 1 point +3 points for a ready made build stub with paralysis immunity.
    Spoiler: Stub
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand
    commoner 1/truenamer 14/whatever gives you spot and some skill ranks 1,
    Assassin? or maybe metabolic fire graft + crown + class with spot

    So feats looks like 1st level dragon wrought, 3rd favored, 6 primary contact, 9 item familiar 15 contagious paralysis (take assassin before level 15)


    The whole movement via RAW abuse is debatable and very TO. However, for your efforts in the field of gamebreakiology, you are awarded 1 point for finding a way to saturate the entire world with paralyzed chickens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yes, it says so in the text.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand
    Another trick: Put an immovable rod (or an infinite-level truenamer utterance, powered by the magic of garblers and heightening) into an energy transformation field, which has the spell teleport other inside it, set to transfer each of its targets to a location with a paralysed creature in it, which is also the furthest location from the ETF on the plane. When it has enough charges, it will teleport the nearest creature onto the pile of paralysed creatures, meaning that the ETF will just create a huge pile of paralysed creatures at the furthest location in existence from the ETF.

    What do you do with a massive pile of paralysed creatures? Well, you could steal all their souls, or use them for liquid pain, or all manner of other things. But also it's a nice way of paralysing everyone in an entire town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand
    Yes.

    Creatures are not terrain, but if you're in contact with a creature you're paralysed an infinite number of times as state-based events, so unless the creature is somehow making a touch attack (which is only one touch, rather than an over-time state of touching) while paralysed, the save isn't actually helpful unless you somehow can't fail it.

    No; you need to move and you can't.
    4 Rules Clarifications: 4 points
    Garbler abuse + energy transformation field: 2 points for cleverness
    Pile of helpless bodies: 1 point
    Liquid pain + pile: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Yay. I'm not sure it's altogether fair for me to get scored this round, since I had recommended it in the first place and had a few pre-existing builds using it.
    We’ll see. It looks like the tallying process is going to take multiple posts.
    Spoiler: Scoring fairness:
    Show
    I’ll calculate your points, if you take 1st place, then we’ll decide whether or not you should recuse yourself from consideration then. I don’t want people to suggest feats only to find out that they may not bask in the glory of their optimization ideas. I don’t like the idea of a back to back winner so early in the series, but I see quite a few regulars already to the optimize this feat threads. And I have now instated upcoming optimize this feat schedules so as to level this playing field a bit in this regard. Now everyone can unleash their fury early.


    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    The throwing/bull rushing of enemies is a good suggestion. I'll come back to it at the end, but first I'll go over some prior builds I made based on using paralyzed enemies as improvised weapons.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Gravetouched Ghoul Human Passive Way Monk 2/Warblade 8/Crusader 3/Drunken Master 5
    1. Warblade 1 - Contagious Paralysis, Dodge (Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Steel Wind) (Hunter's Sense)
    2. Monk 1 - Contagious Paralysis, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise
    3. Monk 2 - Great Fortitude, Improved Trip
    4. Warblade 2 (Wall of Blades)
    5. Crusader 1 (Mountain Hammer, Crusader's Strike, Leading the Attack, Tactical Strike, Foehammer) (Iron Guard's Glare)
    6. Drunken Master 1 - Combat Reflexes
    7. Drunken Master 2
    8. Drunken Master 3
    9. Drunken Master 4 - Power Attack
    10. Crusader 2 (Thicket of Blades)
    11. Crusader 3 (Defensive Rebuke)
    12. Drunken Master 5 - Deceptive Dodge
    13. Warblade 3 (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, or Mithral Tornado)
    14. Warblade 4 (Trade Wolf Fang Strike for Pouncing Charge) (Leaping Dragon Stance)
    15. Warblade 5 - Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior (Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, or Mithral Tornado)
    16. Warblade 6 (Trade something for Manticore Parry)
    17. Warblade 7 (some maneuver)
    18. Warblade 8 (Trade something for Scything Blade)

    If multiclass penalties aren't an issue, take Crusader 4 instead of Drunken Master 5 and get WRT that way. If LA buyoff is allowed, take two more levels of Warblade to get your Adamantine Hurricane on.

    Wield a length of troll intestines as an improvised weapon. Outside of combat, chew on it with your bite constantly to keep it paralyzed and forestall the regeneration (it also freaks out other players and NPCs). Might also not be a bad idea to have a friendly caster lay down a few long term debuffs to its Fort save (Bestow Curse and the Greater version, etc) so it stays paralyzed and drain its Dex away as a fail safe. The Contagious Paralysis feat now lets you convey your Paralysis attack through it with iteratives and reach and everything. From there it's basically just a standard ToB AoO tripper but with a few neat wrinkles. Against natural attacks, use Deceptive Dodge or Manticore Parry to redirect an attack into an already paralyzed enemy or (more reliably and hilariously) your still alive length of intestine to make them trigger Contagious Paralysis. Stormguard Warrior also gets a good deal scarier when the touch attacks can paralyze.

    Going for a more castery build, a Gravetouched Ghoul Wizard build can keep a large creature paralyzed in gruesome, evil overlord style by eating from a troll's finger (the rest of the troll having been destroyed by fire) and then dunking the finger in an open wound of the (still alive) Area Attack weapon to continually paralyze them out of combat (the "troll" should regenerate more or less exactly what you deal with your bite). When combat starts, a Contingent Draconic Polymorph into an Ibraldin will make you large enough to qualify for and use Area Attack. I made a build for a Villainous Competition based on this a while back (though I didn't get it in on time, and in retrospect, the Area Attack+Channel Spell combo probably doesn't work).


    Gravetouched Ghoul is probably the best source of a Paralysis attack. RAI Paralyzing Touch should probably work, but it doesn't seem good enough to qualify by RAW. However, once you have "Paralysis" as an (Ex) or (Su) ability, you can use other paralyzing special attacks with Contagious Paralysis.

    A good one in this regard would be the Silver Dragon's paralyzing breath (likely acquired through a Cold breath weapon and a Crown of the North Wind). Using the Chicken Infested suggestion from earlier, I propose the following.

    Gravetouched Ghoul Half-Ogre (Or other large race with no RHD that is a valid base creature for Gravetouched Ghoul) Commoner 1/PsyWar X/Whatever Y. Get a Cold Breath Weapon from a Metabolic Fire Graft and a Crown of the North Wind. Besides Contagious Paralysis you want Tempest Breath (you can take it as an undead without Breath of Unlife, as it has a Str requirement, not a Con requirement). Breath of Unlife, Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, and Enlarge Breath might not be bad ideas either if you can fit them in though. Using Tempest Breath on your Paralyzing Breath, you can blow paralyzed chickens at people at hurricane force wind speeds. If you have Lingering Breath, then you can leave a wind tunnel which you can drop chickens into in subsequent rounds to send them flying paralyzed in the general direction of an enemy. Since it's large (gargantuan when expanded) anyway and Dungeoncrashing/Setting Sun throwing aren't too feat tight, you might be able to staple one of those two onto it as well. Especially fun if you can Bull Rush/Throw non-chicken targets into your wind tunnel for multiple paralysis opportunities.

    If you just want to Dungeoncrash, I'd just simplify my first build into Gravetouched Ghoul Passive Way or Cobra-Strike Monk 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Drunken Master 4/Whatever X. Keep Deceptive Dodge because it's funny and just requires feats (which you've got a bunch of). If you can stomach the extra LA, then go Goliath for Knockback, otherwise Human is the way to go. Beyond that, it's standard operating procedure for a Dungeoncrasher build. Get Shock Trooper for Domino Rush and Directed Rush and go to town.
    Full build: 11 points (10 + for build, +1 for troll intestines craziness)
    Area Attack build: 3 points for ready made build
    Cold breath weapon + crown of north wind (Dragons of Faerun): 1 point
    Metabolic Fire graft (RoD)+ crown of north wind: 1 point.
    Tempest breath + paralyzing breath weapon: 1 point
    Lingering breath+Tempest breath+chicken infested: 1 point
    Dungeoncrash stub: 4 points

    Quote Originally Posted by Zetapup View Post
    Rather amusingly, the wording of this feat doesn't seem to require that the paralyzed creature remain paralyzed for it to spread paralysis. "Any creature touching a creature that you have paralyzed is immediately affected...". There doesn't seem to be any end or cure to this, so you could go around the local enemy kingdom paralyzing everyone in sight. They would paralyze anyone who touches them, ever. I'm sure there's an amusing way to utilize that.

    Another way to optimize it would be to convince everyone in your party to use unarmed strikes: unarmed swordsages, monks, fighters, barbarians, whatever. Paralyze them all at the start of the game. Anyone they touch/hit with their unarmed strike after that will have to save against paralysis. Hopefully your teammates can avoid paralyzing everyone (eg, merchants, friends, etc) they touch by wearing gloves or something, but the feat doesn't specify.

    Offer your services to the local army (for a price, of course). Paralyze as many soldiers as they want. Or heck, paralyze captives, which can later be used as siege ammunition that paralyzes enemies hit by it. Nothing lowers morale quite like your own troops being shot at you and paralyzing you. The main drawback would be a lack of range, but you can get around that with a necklace of natural attacks (with the throwing and returning enhancements), firing/throwing tiny creatures (or larger, if you have a hulking hurler available), or maybe being a bloodstorm blade (I'll have to reread their abilities to doublecheck, but I think they work on unarmed attacks. Upon doublechecking, you need to be able to throw your fists/whatever at people. Use the amulet or the detach feat for this).

    I'm sure the feat wasn't meant to be used like this, but it's pretty easy to optimize it when it has no end time. Pump the dc as high as you can and enjoy the show. I'll post a build stub later when I have more time.
    Clever observation of permanent vector status: 2 points
    Unarmed strikes based on RAW vector: 1 point
    Paralyzed captive warfare + range extension NoNA: 1 point
    Detach feat + Bloodstorm blade: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    You could easily also parse it in accordance with the RAI, taking "creature paralyzed by your special attack" to mean "creature [currently] paralyzed by your special attack" instead of "creature [that has at some point been] paralyzed by your special attack." I don't see a reason to take a deliberate cheese reading when the text doesn't support that reading any more than the intended one.

    I did recommend the use of paralyzed captives as siege ammunition/improvised weapons for Death's Chosen or undead minions in the unsubmitted Villainous Competition build I linked above. I think I focused on Drunken Masters, though Hulking Hurlers could also make good use of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    I think this has some potential, but we should note that even if the thrown ally can perform mental actions, they're still vulnerable to CDG'ing and possibly to other things that work on helpless targets. That means we either need an ally that can be paralyzed but is immune to (at a minimum) crits, or we need to somehow be making use of that vulnerability. Fortification or a non-discernible anatomy would cover the first option.

    For the second, I propose use of Forced Share Pain, especially as our paralyzed pal is probably psionic anyway. They should probably also have the usual Vigor+Share Pain with Psicrystal combo up, and might benefit from a casting of Delay Death (or at least the Diehard feat) and perhaps a Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain as well. After they're used as a thrown weapon to send them wherever they're needed and paralyze an enemy (or two if we get Master Thrower or the like in on the fun), a third teammate (a Factotum 8/Whatever with the Death Blow feat and all the flat damage boosts you can get your hands on) will CDG them with a scythe a bunch of times to deal Forced Share Pain damage to some other enemy. Said Factotum may also find find utility in getting CDGs in on enemies on the verge of getting up from paralysis.

    Regarding the earlier Fling Enemy suggestion, can you actually use Fling Enemy to throw enemies at each other, or can you just throw them into a specific square?
    RAI/RAW counterargument: 1 point
    Coup de Grace danger for flung allies (fortification or non-discernable anatomy): 1 point
    Vigor + share pain+ delay death or diehard+ nippleclamp: 2 points
    Additional Factotum ally. 1 point

    That is a good question. I don’t know. If you’re attacking a square, the folks in the square likely get a reflex save to avoid the paralytic sentient ammunition. Unless, of course, they are already paralyzed there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    I have a few little ideas that I tried patching up together, and even managed to make them all work by level 12 (assuming at least LA+1 buyout is ok)! This build assumes certain things, such as touch is two-way, in that anything you touch can be considered as touching you. Paralyzing yourself will make it next to impossible to touch others under your own power, but this build tries to get around that.

    Spoiler: Ol' Ztiv Jon
    Show
    Diabolus Divine Minion Beguiler 1 / Ardent 11 / Fiend of Possession 6 / Void Disciple 1 / Mindbender 1
    Progression: B1/A2/F5/A3/V1/F6/M1/A11
    Mantles: Communication, Knowledge, Natural World, Magic
    Ability Scores: INT (at least 14) = WIS >> CON >> CHA >> DEX > STR

    Feats:
    1 Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell (Flaw: whatever), Versatile Spellcaster (Flaw: whatever)
    3 Spell Penetration
    6 Practiced Manifester
    9 Contagious Paralysis
    12 Assume Supernatural Ability (Xill's Planewalk)
    15/18 <whatever...Mindsight?>

    Tricks: Basics Our paralysis seed will be the Xill's sweet 1d4 hour CON-based paralysis, obtained at level 9 via Metamorphosis and your Outsider type. Of course, no benefit from Contagious Paralysis when not metamorphosed.

    (#1)Yeah, that's the Ticket: This is Ol' Stiv's favorite, most practical, and least rules-questionable trick. In addition to paralyzing your enemies, a Xill's Implant lets you lay an egg on them as a standard action. NO SAVE. Now, while some Alien action after 90 days is all hilarious, the funnier part is how this egg gets removed: via Remove Disease or a Heal check. Need I explain further?

    (#2)World of Paralysis: This trick hinges on the FoP's ability to animate Colossal non-continuous objects, the fact that Colossal size has no upper limits, and the reading that any creature can suppress its immunities. Basically, you animate something like a tree, a section of a floor, a puddle of water, an ocean, a mountain, a continental plate, "the atmosphere", or anything that can be described as non-continuous object that is in constant contact with a large number of creatures. Of course, you'll have the animated creature suppress the relevant immunities (Fort save & paralysis), and then let it forgo its saving throw for Paralysis. Voila!!

    (#3)The Carlton Special: This trick utilizes Void Disciple's Sense Void ability, in conjunction with using Paralysis on yourself, and then leaving your paralyzed body to touch other creatures. Once per day (or night, if you follow the original way this technique was done), a DC25 Spellcraft check enables you to touch and see your enemies from a thousand-mile range. Of course, you are still limited to the passing-by 1min/ML time limit of Metamorphosis.

    (#4)The Medusa: This trick utilizes Touchsight: you "see them", they get paralyzed on a failed fort save. Pretty simple...if it works.

    (#5)Dude, where's my car?: This trick utilizes the Xill's Planewalk ability, because paralyzed creatures are obviously helpless. Basically, everything you can turn to a helpless creature (like animated continental plates with suppressed immunities), you can send to the ethereal plane. Sweet!
    Full build: 12 points + 5 (1 point bonus for each “trick”)

    Clever. It gets TO real fast, but is online as a paralytic vector by level 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Spoiler: Arrus Steeludder, the Horned Hobo
    Show
    Backstory:

    Born in a savage land to a minotaur mother and an orcish father, Arrus' childhood wasn't easy. The minotaurs of his tribe saw him as small and useless, while the orcs thought he was a mindless brute even dumber than they were.

    Arrus left his tribe at a young age, and dedicated himself to martial arts. Thousands of hours did he spend punching trees and throwing rocks, until one day he deemed himself fit to explore the world.

    One day, Arrus arrived in a city, where he became a mercenary fighting for whoever paid him. Yet luck was not on his side, and one day most of his company was killed by a group of adventurers. Struck with grief, Arrus tried to drown his sorrows.

    The minotaurling became an outcast who slowly wasted away in gutters. The will to live was gone from his body, and only his love for alcohol kept him going. Sometimes people saw him crawl through dark alleys, a liquor bottle in his hairy hand. Over time, parents started to scare their children with tales of 'the Horned Hobo' who would abduct and eat them if they didn't obey their parents.

    Then, one day, Arrus died. Yet only moments after perishing, his body stirred once more, and Arrus rose again. He looked around with surprise, then drank deeply from his bottle. The weakness of living in filth was gone from his body, but his hunger and thirst hadn't. The ghoulish minotaur didn't mind.

    Nowadays, Arrus roams the world looking for more food, whether flesh, blood, or liquor. Gluttony is his only drive, but it is a powerful drive. Arrus might be a villain, a beast, a wild card, or even an unlikely hero, but no matter what...

    there better be some booze for him.


    Arrus Steeludder:
    CE Gravetouched Ghoul Half-Minotaur Arctic Orc Ex-Cobra Style Monk 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 4/Drunken Master 10/Fighter 1

    Ability scores (32 point-buy):
    STR 36
    DEX 12
    CON -
    INT 10
    WIS 10
    CHA 12

    Feats:
    Level 1: Power Attack, DodgeB Improved Unarmed StrikeB
    Level 2: MobilityB
    Level 3: Great Fortitude
    Level 4: -
    Level 5: -
    Level 6: MultiattackB, Improved Multiattack
    Level 7: -
    Level 8: -
    Level 9: Contagious Paralysis
    Level 10: -
    Level 11: -
    Level 12: Ability Focus (Paralysis), Improved GrappleB
    Level 13: Improved FeintB
    Level 14: -
    Level 15: Improved Paralysis
    Level 16: -
    Level 17: Shock TrooperB

    Tactics:
    You begin battles by charging 100 ft. (not necessarily in a straight line) and full attacking. Three of your four natural attacks can inflict paralysis (DC 25 to resist), and you've got four unarmed strikes from Flurry of Blows, to go with this.

    Once you paralyze an enemy, you can pick them up and wield them as an improvised weapon. This gives you a slight damage boost, and (more importantly) makes your attacks with said enemy paralyze foes on contact. If you want to get even cheesier, you can enforce the rule that a natural 1 rolled by you kills whatever you are swinging around.

    In addition to all this, your strength is through the roof (40 while raging), and you've got power attack and shock trooper. Oh, and you'll also be stunning and bullrushing foes on a successful charge.

    Adaption:
    If LA buyoff is on the table, take Unorthodox Flurry as your 18th-level feat, which should let you make FoB attacks with your teeth. It fits the gluttony theme while also increasing your number of paralysis attempts.


    TL;DR Ubercharger paralyses foes, uses them as weapons, and paralyses more people.
    Full build, similar to whambamsams, but uses enemies as ammunition rather than paralyzed troll guts: 10 points for the write up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Surprised no on has mentioned this, as I thought it was fairly obvious. Could make a Lich Sorcerer that simply pick up this feat and abuses telekinesis with it. Simple Build:

    Spoiler
    Show
    LE Undead (Human) Sorcerer
    Base Stats
    10 Str
    15 Dex
    - Con
    14 Int
    12 Wis
    21 Cha

    Feats: Craft Wondrous Items at level 6 and Contagious Paralysis at 12. Maybe Extend Spell and some other meta-magic. Take enough meta-magic and should probably take the rapid meta-magic feat. Or just have some rods of Extend and/or Empower Spell.

    Take Sorcerer for 11 levels to qualify for Lich. After becoming one and gaining your 12th level you qualify to take the feat. Pump CHA as much as you can as it helps your spell casting and the DC for your paralyzing touch.

    Spells don't matter too much, but we want Telekinesis for sure. A cheap lower level summoning spell works well to so we can summon a group of small defenses-less monsters to paralyze and chuck around. Also on that note, if a target is paralyzed shouldn't it take a penalty on opposing Bull Rush attempts? Could make a line of parallelized creatures we just push into each-other here.

    After level 12, just take another 4-7 levels of Sorcerer depending on whether or not LA-buyoff is on the table. Though to be honest this would probably make a much better villain than a PC.
    Full...ish build: 9 points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nashira View Post
    How about this:

    Summon enough swarms to blanket the battlefield. The bigger the swarm the better. Command line of the swarms to willingly fail a save against your paralysis. The swarm now forces a save against all the other swarms, which you command then to fail, and against everything else in the battlefield.

    This strategy needs a little love to make it more elegant, but I think it has potential.
    I love it. 1 point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Step 1) Cast Planar Binding a Bunch to get a bunch of Demodand allies.
    2) Paralyze them all with your paralysis.
    3) Paralyze yourself, also polymorph yourself into a Demodand and/or wear a Ring of Freedom of Movement and/or cast/persist FoM.
    4) Run around doing other stuff, casting spells, whatever. Have your Demodands punch people.

    Result: Anyone who attacks you or your Demodands in a way that touches you (natural attacks mostly) also has to make a save against Paralysis. Also all of your many Demodands get a free save vs paralysis with all their natural attacks.

    Basically, FoM allows you to move freely, but doesn't make you not Paralyzed. So you can still rock out, but also anything that touches you might get paralyzed, and you can get all your demodands a free save or lose on every attack, since they are all constantly FoM.

    Presumably this is best on fullcaster/lich? Maybe there is a better way to get a paralyzing touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by nashira
    Might not be allowed, since touch attacks might fall under "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures."
    Freedom of movement: 1 point
    Demondands are from Fiend Folio 3.0: They have a Freedom of Movement effect as a trait: 1 point
    Easily combined with the lich suggestion above: 1 point.
    RAW debate: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Liches' Paralyzing Touch does not appear to qualify them to take Contagious Paralysis by RAW.
    I disagree, but it is important that we highlight this stuff: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    They very much appear to:
    Any monster with a supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze victims has "Paralysis" Presumably if your "Paralyzing Touch" was (Ex) you would not qualify, but it seems that any supernatural or SLA ability to paralzye counts.

    So apparently, my new answer is forget Lich, just be an Archmage and get a Ghoul Touch SLA. (Or you know, a better SLA that has a much longer duration).
    Rules Clarification: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Fling Ally/Fling Enemy allow you to throw a creature, while Lightning Throw allows you to throw that creature in a 30 foot line and then return that thrown creature to your hand at the end of the throw. The applications of this should be both obvious and hilarious.

    EDIT: Comet Throw, Ballista Throw, Mighty Throw, Soaring Throw, Devastating Throw and Tornado Throw are all hilarious for this too.
    Thanks for listing all of the ToB throw maneuvers. 1 point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I've got it.

    Drunken Master to get the same reach as the size of your weapon, plus spool of endless rope, great cleave, and great throw. Great throw allows you to put a creature you drop - typically by reducing it below 0 hit points, but today by tripping it - you get a new, free action against it. Paralyse a creature, so that you always pass your trip attacks against it, and then trip it, putting it on top of another creature you want to paralyse. You've just tripped the creature, so it's dropped, so you can trip it again, and dump it on another creature you want to paralyse.

    If you're not sure that great cleave works, you can place the creature 10 feet in the air, and make an attack of opportunity with epic combat reflexes as it comes down instead.

    Another fun trick is that creatures 2 or more sizes below you are light weapons, so they work with Storm of Throws.
    Zany drunken master shenanigans again: 1 point.
    The “drop” characteristic of great cleave is a weird word not to define. This plan will have to hashed out with the DM (or players).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Umm:
    So the Feat's pre-req is
    A) An Extraordinary or Supernatural Ability. Su for Lich's Paralyzing Touch means it is supernatural
    B) You must actually inflict the "Paralyzed" Status effect with said ability. I don't think it matters if the attack is touch, or had infinite duration.

    So not sure how by RAW a Supernatural ability that let's you permanently paralyze someone with a touch attack doesn't qualify for the feat.
    Rules clarification: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Polymorph/Metamorphosis with Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer, or Dragon Wild Shape would certainly work. I'd favor something that opens up the possibility of being large, as Tempest Breath+Contagious Paralysis+Bag of Rats (or the classic endless chickens) seems like a combo with promise to me.

    The Dracolich version of Paralyzing Touch is pretty snazzy, working off any physical attack. That means weapons, even ranged ones, are fair game. It's +4 LA but I admit I do love a good Dragonwrought Dracolich Archer. I'm fond of a nice simple Soulbound Weapon Psychic Warrior 16, so you can recall your fancy weapon should you die and have to possess a new body. Not sure how you'd make it work with Contagious Paralysis though, unless there's some sort of fancy arrow you can use to reposition enemies or you've got a buddy who'll do it for you.

    Using just class levels, Binders with Acererak bound qualify. DFAs can get a paralyzing breath weapon natively, but not until 15th. The Ghoul Touch SLA option works if it counts as "innate" for the purposes of Supernatural Transformation. Such a SLA could also be acquired through Dragonblood Sorcerer 4 (assuming you duck out and back in so you have access to 3rds when you take the sub-level) instead of Archmage. That'd actually be potentially nifty, since the stench effect would seem to be passed along as well.
    Polymorph/Metamorphosis with Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer, or Dragon Wild Shape: 1 point
    Bag of rats: 1 point
    Dracolich: 1 point
    Binder + Acerak: 1 point
    DFA level 15: 1 point
    Dragonblood sorcerer 4 + supernatural transformation: 1 point
    What ghoul touch SLA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    I'm sorry, but the bolded part doesn't work.

    <quote>"Jormengrand's great cleave wordplay hijinx"

    You aren't dealing a creature enough damage to make it drop. The amount of damage you are dealing is completely irrelevant to the question: 'did I drop a creature'. If it said something like 'if you drop a creature' or 'if your damage-dealing attack drops a creature' I'd agree with you, but RAW the trick doesn't work.

    But don't give up hope! There should be an item/weapon/class that lets you attempt a trip every time you deal damage to a creature, right?
    Rules clarification: 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Okay, cool.

    My first Drunken Master is pretty feat tight, so it's hard to convert the Gravetouched Ghoul LA into anything too great (point buy is likely a bit tight too, especially if we need 17 Wis). Most likely we just add a few strategically placed levels in Fighter to shuffle feats around and fit in Stunning Fist and Freezing the Lifeblood. That also means needing to get immunity to paralysis from items. Flaws could cover the feat issues involved in switching over to being a Warforged (assuming also a a lack of multiclass penalties), though the racial Wis penalty is still painful unless we can fit a LA+0 Wis increasing template into the mix. Using our second flaw on this Warforged (and swapping the Fighter levels for PsyWar levels), we can convert Dodge into the Midnight Dodge+Psycarnum Infusion combo to kick Deceptive Dodging up a notch.

    My Dungeoncrasher should be able to stomach losing a feat by being a Warforged and opening up Warforged Juggernaut helps lessen the sting of that Wis penalty. It could, I suppose, also trade in the Gravetouched Ghoul LA for 2 levels in the Half-Dragon savage progression, though that's basically an entirely negative trade-off. Duergar are immune to Paralysis as it turns out, and the Psionic version is are actually pretty decent, especially if you have a few feats to spare on Duergar Expansion. Being naturally Psionic opens up the Midnight Dodge+Psycarnum Infusion+Deceptive Dodge combo as well. Let's see...

    Spoiler
    Show
    Psionic Duergar Monk 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Drunken Master 4
    1. Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Midnight Dodge
    2. Monk 2 -
    3. Fighter 1 - Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
    4. Fighter 2
    5. Fighter 3
    6. Fighter 4 - Combat Expertise, Great Fortitude
    7. Drunken Master 1
    8. Drunken Master 2
    9. Drunken Master 3 - Duergar Expansion
    10. Drunken Master 4
    11. Fighter 5
    12. Fighter 6 - Freezing the Lifeblood
    13. PsyWar 1 - Deceptive Dodge
    14. PsyWar 2 - Psycarnum Infusion
    15. PsyWar 3 - Contagious Paralysis
    16. PsyWar 4
    17. PsyWar 5 - Duergar Expansion
    18. Drunken Master 5 - Knockback or Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)
    19. Drunken Master 6


    Neither does well with the effective loss of two feats and small size involved in being a Dragonwrought Kobold, unfortunately. Small size (not to mention low Str) messes with most of non-casting mechanisms for moving enemies around the battlefield in general. I suppose a Kobold could focus on Deceptive Dodge/Manticore Parry/Scorpion Parry/Elusive Target type stuff, though that's pretty feat intensive, especially if you're trying to squeeze into Master of Nine for more fancy counters.

    This certainly helps with the Tempest Breath build though, especially if you don't mind item-based qualification (Metabolic Fire Graft+Crown of the North Wind). Two more class levels and removing any need for Breath of Unlife is helpful indeed. We could even be good aligned and use Dragonborn to have a breath weapon in early levels to qualify for metabreath feats before the graft is applied.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Dragonborn Half-Ogre PsyWar 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6
    1. PsyWar 1 - Tempest Breath, Power Attack
    2. PsyWar 2 - Improved Bull Rush
    3. PsyWar 3 - Clinging Breath
    4. PsyWar 4
    5. Fighter 1 -
    6. Fighter 2 - Knockback
    7. Fighter 3.
    8. Fighter 4 - Shock Trooper
    9. PsyWar 5 - Practiced Manifester, Lingering Breath
    10. Fighter 5
    11. Fighter 6
    12. PsyWar 6 - Contagious Paralysis

    With Dragon Magazine available, switch to Dragonborn Half-Minotaur Mongrelfolk Commoner 1/PsyWar 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6. Chicken Infested gets one extra feat, which can be spent on Enlarge Breath. Further levels probably go into more PsyWar for utility powers and a few more feats that fit well, while regular feats from levels go to more metabreath (with one more flaw the Dragon Magazine version can actually fit the feat tree for Extend Spreading Breath, which would mean a 240ft radius Hurricane of Paralysis and Chickens that serve as Paralysis vectors that lasts for several rounds.


    EDIT: The Assassin Death Attack is untagged, but the Black Dog version, and likely most other instances are labeled as (Ex). Contagious Paralysis might be a handy way of getting around the 3 turn study period.

    A simple enough Paralysis-immune way to get Ghoul Touch as a (Su) ability is as follows.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer 3/Singer of Concordance 2/Dragonblood Sorcerer +1/Casting Advancement 14
    1. Sorcerer 1 - Dragonwrought
    2. Sorcerer 2
    3. Sorcerer 3 - Draconic Resevoir
    4. Singer of Concordance 1
    5. Singer of Concordance 2 - Knowledge Devotion
    6. Sorcerer 4 - Supernatural Transformation (Ghoul Glyph)
    7. Casting
    8. Casting
    9. Casting - Contagious Paralysis

    If you don't like auto-qualification cheese, a Lesser Aasimar can enter Paragnostic Apostle early and take Draconic Heritage as a feat to qualify for Dragonblood Sorcerer 4 when they duck back into Sorc. No Paralysis Immunity, unfortunately.

    The Telekinesis suggestion from earlier in the thread was a good one. Get yourself a bag of rats and go to town. I imagine there must also be a good way of upgrading the widespread sickened condition from spreading Ghoul Touch around to nauseated but I don't know of one off the top of my head. I had thought Rot of Ages would do it (which would have been really slick what with Black Dragonwrought Kobolds being able to cast it as a swift action), but as it turns out it only stacks with itself in that regard. It'd still be worth it if we found a good way of exploiting the sickened condition though.


    Knock-down? You need to deal at least 10, but that's not hard, and this seems to be in melee.
    The idea density is high in this one, some of which are just musings, which I either award a point to or not

    Build re-arrange: 1 point
    If we are going warforged, how would the feat construct lock work?
    Duergar build: 10 points Nice!
    half ogre stub: 6 points
    Different Kobold build: 4 points
    Aasimar paragnostic 1 point

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Paralyzing Fist from DotU is worse (shorter duration, longer set up, and more costly) than Freezing the Lifeblood, but has lower prereqs, higher DC, and can are not limited to humanoids.
    Paralyzing fist + Good analysis: 2 points
    Last edited by daremetoidareyo; 2016-01-28 at 05:10 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Contributor Points PLACE
    Ex Libris Mortis 5
    Zaq 4
    Jormengand 15 3
    WhamBamSam 56 1
    Zetapup 5
    ben-zayb 19 2
    Dire_Stirge 11
    Zancloufer 10
    Nashira 1
    Beheld 5

    Taking 1st Place for the second Optimize this Feat Tournament in a Row, comes WhamBamSam!

    more like WhamBuildSpam! Anyways, I know we talked about possible recusal of WBS, But I don't like the idea of people suggesting feats that they want the groupthink to optimize with them and then punishing them for having already having great ideas that are going to waste in some file labelled "possible builds."

    This was a great round. As promised, your name is now being put in a fancy font. How about a little Bold Book Antiqua in ghoul-pus grey: WhamBamSam


    If you find that you have a suggestion for contagious paralysis that wasn't covered, feel free to post even though the contest is closed. I would like these optimization exhibition matches to serve as little stockpiles of knowledge and know-how for other 3.5 optimizers.

    Thanks to everyone who participated. Don't draw discouragement from low score if you got them. They are an arbitrary incentives program to drum up and encourage posting and analysis. A score, in no substantive way, is a judgment of your idea's quality or usability; it's only a measure of how much yall helped to craft the current state-of-knowledge about the feat, and thus serves as a rough way to provide credit to people who help. The most helpful of which earn their name in a non-standard Font.


    Coming up next round: Dungeonscape's Hammer and Piton.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    RogueGuy

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    Aug 2014

    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Lastly,
    Chicken throwing robot

    Warforged, ex stun abilities, chicken throwing abilities. Double stun your chickens to paralyze them and toss them as paralytic weaponry.
    Level Class Feats BAB
    1
    Commoner Chicken Infested (DM #330): feat, feat
    0
    2
    monk IUS, stunning fist
    0
    3
    monk combat reflexes, point blank shot
    1
    4
    warblade
    2
    5
    warblade
    3
    6
    bloodstorm blade quick draw
    4
    7
    bloodstorm blade
    5
    8
    fighter Rapid Stunning (CW)
    6
    9
    bloodstorm blade Paralyzing fists, (DotU)
    7
    10
    bloodstorm blade
    8
    11
    bloodstorm blade
    9
    12
    fighter contagious paralysis (LM), freezing the lifeblood (CW)
    10
    13
    warblade

    14
    bloodstorm Blade

    15

    pharaohs fist (Sa)
    16




  18. - Top - End - #48
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    WhamBamSam's Avatar

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    Default Re: Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis from Libris Mortis

    Pharaoh's Fist is a Fighter Bonus Feat, so you can get it back at level 9 with the one Bloodstorm Blade gives you.

    As we discussed previously, Psionic Duergar is also a paralysis-immune race that works here. Since you have some feats open to spend on Duergar Expansion and possibly even fit in something like Knockback (your thrown chickens can count as melee after all, you just need the size), it might be worth the LA +1. Maybe even Psycarnum Infusion+Sapphire Fist to boost the save DC (though that takes a while to outperform Ability Focus and may not be worth it).

    Also make sure to take some more Warblade latish to pick up Manticore Parry for the purpose of redirecting natural attacks into paralyzed chickens.

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