Warhammer 40K Fluff Thread XI - Juggling Idiot Balls

[Blackhawk748]

Wazdakka Gutsmek once drove hs motorcycle through a Titans Void Shields, and all that did was set him on fire.

Also Stonecrusher Carnifexes all have regen, and 2+ armor, and really big scary claws. The Alpha probably just has better regen.

I do love how the Hive Mind uses a classic Distraction Carnifex maneuver.

Also the first book in the 40k Word Bearer series, which I cannot remember by name, has a titan boarded by a bunch of guys running up to it while it's braced for firing, which also probably wouldn't work too well if the void shields around it's body stopped people from running through them. The shields should definitely have been on in this case because it was an active battle.

I read that series, dont remember the name of the book either lol

[Grim Portent]

I read that series, dont remember the name of the book either lol

I always just think of it as the first part of the Word Bearers Omnibus.

[Blackhawk748]

I always just think of it as the first part of the Word Bearers Omnibus.

Thats what it is to me too, solid series, made me really hate the main character, but in a good way.

[Manticoran]

Yeah, that's what I thought. But, for me, personally at least. I would prefer that they hard-and-fast mentioned that it was Old One Eye. Rather than a cheap copy. Like, a very, very specific organism from Hive Fleet Behemoth had been sighted within Hive Fleet Leviathan which could easily spell doom for the Galaxy. Contrary to the tabletop, different Hive Fleets are vastly different, and seeing Old One Eye at the head of a Leviathan Tendril would be really bad news.

The Eldar even specifically had to stop Behemoth and Leviathan from merging biomass on Valedor.

A note that to my understanding, Leviathan has regenerating Carnifex BECAUSE of the fact that they got it from Old One Eye?

[thethird]

A note that to my understanding, Leviathan has regenerating Carnifex BECAUSE of the fact that they got it from Old One Eye?

No. But it would be a cool (in the dreadful sense) implication. In fact if you want to make the grimdark more grimdark get some genestealers from Kraken and Behemoth and send them close enough to Octarius. That will draw them, or at least splinters, to where Leviathan is.

[The Glyphstone]

Has there ever been a canon occurrence of organisms from two different Hive Fleets encountering each other? Would they just merge into one fleet if they did, since it's all under the same Hive Mind, or would they go to war in a survival-of-the-fittest situation?

[comicshorse]

I remember it happening in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels and the two different factions of Tyrannids turn on each other and rip each other to shreds
I think it was 'The Greater Good'

[Manticoran]

Yeah, they fight to eat each other, kind of like Orkz will fight and the remaining ones will be tougher and scarier.

[Artanis]

Would they just merge into one fleet if they did, since it's all under the same Hive Mind, or would they go to war in a survival-of-the-fittest situation?

With the Tyranids, the two options are one and the same. You'd wind up with one fleet that has both fleets' gene libraries and biomass reserves, the only difference is whether the individual organisms are alive or dead when they're reabsorbed.

[Voidhawk]

Generally they immediately fight, so as to determine which has absorbed the stronger traits from fallen worlds (read as: give two 'Nid players an excuse to have a game). Since the loser is entirely consumed there's no loss of biomass, and 'Nids have never seemed to follow conservation of energy anyway. The hive-ships themselves don't generally fight however, prefering to vomit broods over whatever planetoid is nearby to test the adaptions on each other.

If there is nearby prey, or if the fleets haven't been seperate long enough to acrue meaningful differences (eg two splinters of Kraken), they may simply skip the process entirely. I'm pretty sure that Ciaphas Cain book ended with the experimenter getting a harsh lesson in exactly how bad underestimating the Hive Mind is. Followed by getting eaten.

[LeSwordfish]

Surely, evolutionarily speaking, that would produce a warrior race evolutionally perfect at killing other tyranids and only coincidentally good vs anything else.

[The Glyphstone]

Surely, evolutionarily speaking, that would produce a warrior race evolutionally perfect at killing other tyranids and only coincidentally good vs anything else.

It'd also produce warriors perfected at killing tyranids who were optimized to kill tyranids in turn (tyranid-killer-tyranid killers?), looped endlessly - whoever came out on top would be both so good at killing tyranids designed to not be killed by tyranids and so hard to kill by tyranids designed to kill tyranids that even coincidental overlap would render them practically invincible versus any opponent who hadn't optimized their tyranid-killing ability to such a ludicrous degree.

[Grim Portent]

I think there's also meant to be a high level of independence and free thought among the Norn Queens, with any given Queen council being more than willing to advance their own fleet at the expense of other fleets.

[Manticoran]

My understanding is that Norn Queens craft new Tyranids, and are fairly selfish, but don't actually control the fleets. Is that a wrong understanding?

[Grim Portent]

My understanding is that Norn Queens craft new Tyranids, and are fairly selfish, but don't actually control the fleets. Is that a wrong understanding?

Some fluff, which is probably of dubious canonicity now, said that Norn Queens served as the rulers of their hive fleets, with all the Queens in the fleet collectively making the decisions on where to attack and how to adapt the swarm, guiding the evolution of the Tyranids to be the best predators they could be. They probably don't command things on the ground personally, they have Dominatrixes and Tyrants for that, but they serve as the center of the synaptic web that connects all Tyranids.

[Manticoran]

Some fluff, which is probably of dubious canonicity now, said that Norn Queens served as the rulers of their hive fleets, with all the Queens in the fleet collectively making the decisions on where to attack and how to adapt the swarm, guiding the evolution of the Tyranids to be the best predators they could be. They probably don't command things on the ground personally, they have Dominatrixes and Tyrants for that, but they serve as the center of the synaptic web that connects all Tyranids.

If true, that makes me very sad. I always really liked the idea that all 'nids are the same thing.

[The Glyphstone]

There is seriously a bio-titan called a Dominatrix.

You'd think with all the money they make, GW could buy a thesaurus/dictionary.

[Blackhawk748]

If true, that makes me very sad. I always really liked the idea that all 'nids are the same thing.

They are, sorta. While the Hive Mind is the same across all Nids, each Hive Fleet develops its own quirks, and its just more efficient to have them go into a battle royale when they meet.

What book is the Norn Queens in? Cuz i dont remember them from the 4th ed codex.

There is seriously a bio-titan called a Dominatrix.

You'd think with all the money they make, GW could buy a thesaurus/dictionary.

I completely agree.

[Sayt]

There is seriously a bio-titan called a Dominatrix.

You'd think with all the money they make, GW could buy a thesaurus/dictionary.

I think they did, and looked up "Unpleasant Woman", thence Harridan, Harpy, Termagant, Crone...

[Grim Portent]

They are, sorta. While the Hive Mind is the same across all Nids, each Hive Fleet develops its own quirks, and its just more efficient to have them go into a battle royale when they meet.

What book is the Norn Queens in? Cuz i dont remember them from the 4th ed codex.

Codex: Tyranids (2nd Edition)
Codex: Tyranids (3rd Edition)
Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition)
Warriors of Ultramar (Novel) by Graham MacNeill
White Dwarf 146 (UK), "Warriors of the Hives"

Copied the sources from a wiki page.

Dubious canon these days since it's pretty old. The Queens certainly still exist, but the role they fill may not be part of GWs concept of 'nids these days.

[Blackhawk748]

Codex: Tyranids (2nd Edition)
Codex: Tyranids (3rd Edition)
Codex: Space Marines (5th Edition)
Warriors of Ultramar (Novel) by Graham MacNeill
White Dwarf 146 (UK), "Warriors of the Hives"

Copied the sources from a wiki page.

Dubious canon these days since it's pretty old. The Queens certainly still exist, but the role they fill may not be part of GWs concept of 'nids these days.

Well it looks like the Nid Codexes stopped using them around 4th ed, which is why i dont know of them. I wonder if they just get sorta mentioned in the SM codex. In any case, i view them as old school Telephone Operators, they simply act as Synapse relays to the rest of the fleet.

[Drasius]

One would imagine that it's the basis for the norn crown relic biomorph that increases synapse.

[Cheesegear]

There's Wrath of Iron, in which Warhound titans are working very closely in tunnels with infantry and tanks around their feet and get killed by daemonettes ramming their void shields until they collapse. Which was honestly s pretty stupid scene.

Ah, yes.

Has there ever been a canon occurrence of organisms from two different Hive Fleets encountering each other?

Yes, at Valedor. Hive Fleets Leviathan and Kraken met each other, and, even though there wasn't even anyone living on the planet, the Eldar decided that having two Hive Fleets merge (by eating each other) would be very, very bad. So they decide to fight the Tyranids. Eldar vs. Kraken and Leviathan, but only so it isn't Leviathan vs. Kraken. Whoever wins, we lose.
Basically, Eldar DNA that Kraken has, isn't allowed to fall into the hands of the greater Hive Mind.

Different Hive Fleets do not have the same adaptations (the tabletop is all sorts of wrong on this issue). The Hive Mind needs to create ever-superior Hive Fleets, which have to consume the previous Fleet in order to receive new genetic information.

The only way that other Fleets have access to Old One Eye's template, is if Old One Eye is eaten by another Hive Fleet. The Norn-Queens of Hive Fleet Behemoth can churn out Old One Eye as many times as they want (but only once, at a time?), but the Norn-Queens of Hive Fleet Leviathan can't produce Old One Eye. But they can feasibly create Regenerating Carnifexes at-will. 'Cause why not?

[Tehnar]

Hive fleets absorbing parts of each other makes sense to increase variation makes sense. Fighting each other beforehand doesn't in a evolution sense. If two species (or subspecies) compete for the same resources, after a while only one will win. Any adaptive advantages held by the loser will be lost.

Lets say hive fleet Kraken is in the TEQ meta..they evolved a lot of AP2/rending stuff. Hive fleet Behemoth is in the current meta, so has a lot of AP 4 ignores cover. If the two hivefleets meet and fight then the new fight fleet will only resemble either Kraken or Behemoth, not both.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear Reads: The Shield of Baal

Spoiler: Previously in The Red Scar

Show

Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Warning
Breach!
Battle of Lysios
Battle of Asphodex
Battle of Ixoi
Battle of Aeros
Battle of Tartoros

With all five planets now having a piece of the action, and four out of said five having fallen - Canoness Magda Grace being the only shining example of Humanity. Day 3 (?) of the Invasion dawns on Asphodex and the city of Phodia;

Dhrost receives word that Flax and his 'private army' will finally join the fight. Flax tells Dhrost that he's been safeguarding evacuated routes, and that's why he hasn't been around. Behind closed doors, however, the Cadians believe that the Phodian underground is no longer safe. A man like Flax would only come out of his hidey-hole if it was safer to be behind a line of Guard than in his own personal bunker.
...But seriously though. What happened with the Broodlord knocking at Flax's door? Are the writers just going to pretend that they didn't write that? That it seems like Flax has a prior relationship with a Genestealer Cult. For real, what is going on with Flax?

The Dragon Strikes

• Dhrost's Astropaths' eyes roll back into their heads, all of them repeat the same phrase; 'The Dragon reared back, only to strike.' A phrase which I assume comes from the prophecy Cryptus and the Dragon, but it's not like the writers actually told me that. I had to figure that out myself, because in context, the phrase makes no sense.
• Flax orders his army to stand overwatch on sewer grates and manholes. Dhrost, clearly seeing that something is up, orders his men to do the same.
• Too little, too late. Genestealers in the tunnels come spewing out onto the streets.
• Unlike the last disasterous battle, Dhrost decides that this time, he wants to hold the streets. He has set up Hellhound roadblocks, which simply set fire to everything in the streets.
• Remember how all of Dhrost's men are stranded on the roofs of buildings from two days ago? Well, the smoke from the Hellhounds - and the ash clouds of burning Genestealers and Lictors - rises up to choke the Guard on the roofs and block sightlines to the ground.
• From out of nowhere, turns out, Flax has his own, personal Psyker Corps. WHAT!? Execute Flax. Right now. Turns out, an Inquisitorial Black Ship crashed on Ixoi a while back. Flax, a greedy a-hole, decided to loot the Black Ship. In the wreckage he found three Alpha-level Psykers (a Pyromancer, Telekine and Telepath, if it matters - it doesn't) as well as over two dozen lesser psykers. Evidently, Flax has been hiding Psykers instead of reporting them. As the Planetary Governor as well as the de facto System Governor, he has to report Psykers. He hasn't been doing that. Pretty sure you should shoot him, Dhrost.
  Seriously Dhrost. It's martial law time. Flax serves no purpose right now, and has arguably committed treason by having secret psykers. As well as looting an Inquisitorial Black Ship, and then not reporting his findings. Flax has stolen assets from the Inquisition. Shoot him. Shoot him now. I'm not even kidding. Whatever secret Flax is hiding that I know will bite everyone in the ass, becomes irrelevant if you shoot him. Conveniently - plottingly, so - Dhrost does not shoot Flax on the spot after five seconds of finally meeting him in person.
• With the three Alpha-level Psykers strolling down main street and dominating the fight, the rest of Flax's Psykers come out to play.
• With Flax and his armies finally deciding to help, Dhrost has the populace on his side, and looks like he might win.
• Miracles start stacking. Dhrost receives a message from one of the Militarum Tempestus' super-voxes that can punch through the Tyranid static. A Tempestor Prime (wink, wink) is on his way with an entire regiment of Scions.
• Little does Flax know, throwing Psykers into the fight had just made things infinitely worse.

PROTIP: Psykers are for fighting Chaos, not Tyranids. If you let Tyranids know that you have Psykers on the field, the Hive Mind instantly start salivating. Tyranids are drawn to Psykers like moths to a flame, and Tyranids really, really, really want to eat them and gain their tasty biomass. Which is another reason why Dhrost should be shooting his Astropaths anyway. Like, everything I know about anything says that Dhrost doesn't know how to fight Tyranids. Why would he? He's from Cadia, and he fights Chaos, and it's already been established that he's completely out of his depth. So, okay, Dhrost (and Flax) decided to lift their Idiot Ball high, and declare to the Tyranids that they have Alpha level Psykers on their team. Now the Tyranids are going to escalate - as they do - knowing that there are Psykers to be eaten.
This story would be infinitely better with Catachans (who come from the Ultima Segmentum, BTW, and would actually make sense being near Baal). You could have Straken and Nork Deddog buddy movie-ing and Monster Hunting Hive Tyrants all over the place. You could have Sergeant Harker and his Devils take the fight to the Genestealers. You could have Genestealer claws vs. Catachan Fangs.
*Sigh*...Forge Better Narratives, indeed.

Back to Abraxes (FINALLY!)
So if Abraxes burnt out his Navigator, how did he get to Cryptus? I hear you asking. Easy. What Abraxes didn't do, was burn out his Astropaths. He's still got those. Abraxes has telecommunicated with Tempestus High Command, he's looking for a Rogue Trader in the Sector that he can blackmail. Which is the coolest thing I've ever heard, which reminds me of Pandorax*. Imperial authorities already know when any given Rogue Trader is sketchy. But they don't care. There are bigger problems. But, when time comes, the Imperium gets to stroll up to a Rogue Trader and say;
"We know what's in your cargo bay, and we don't care. So, here's the deal. Do what we want, or we'll start caring."
Anyway, Abraxes has been spending the last year or so sitting on his hands, waiting for Astropaths to do their thing across the Galaxy, and then waiting for a Rogue Trader, and then travel time.

Turns out, what I thought was a throwaway line 'rumours persist that the Rogue Traders that originally settled the system found non-lethal [Warp] tunnels that could theoretically allow [passage through the Aegis Diamando' is actually plot-relevant. Turns out, the Rogue Trader in question, who's being blackmailed, is one of the RTs who knows a safe passage through the Aegis.

Stay tuned for the next installment of Shield of Baal when Tempestor Prime Uther Abraxes finally makes it to Cryptus.


*Grey Knights know all about the Dark Angels' Fallen, and they don't care. The Dark Angels have to help the Grey Knights, or the Grey Knights will simply decide that the Dark Angels are all corrupt and begin an investigation. If you help us, there's no problem. If you don't...Well, we're not responsible for what happens next...

[Cheesegear]

Any adaptive advantages held by the loser will be lost.

That's not how Tyranids work. Tyranids eat your heart to gain your strength, quite literally. Once the Norn-Queen has a genetic code, she can remake it again and again and again.
I think - though I could be wrong - that Tyranids don't eat other Tyranids when there are no adaptations to take. That is, Tyranids recognise their own Hive Fleet, but not much else. Basically, Tyranid-on-Tyranid action is described as "You are a different to me. So I must eat you to gain your secrets."

If the two hivefleets meet and fight then the new fight fleet will only resemble either Kraken or Behemoth, not both.

Wrong. That's how your fancy real-world science works. That's not how 40K works. A Hive Fleet is the sum of its parts.

Kraken has super-Zoanthropes thanks to eating Iyanden and mainly focusses on lots of little gribblies (<3rd Ed.).
Behemoth has - as the name suggests - highly adapted Monstrous Creatures designed for ripping into Tanks and Space Marines, because Battle of Macragge (4th Ed.).
Leviathan focusses on greater Synapse control and fliers (5th Ed<).

The Eldar quite strongly believe that if Kraken eats Leviathan (or vice versa), the result will be a mess of highly psychic, highly Synaptic brood of Fliers. I, for one, would very much like to see a psychic Harridan.

[shadow_archmagi]

So basically, every hive fleet is following its own tech tree, but when they eat each other, they pick up everything the other hives had researched?

[Cheesegear]

So basically, every hive fleet is following its own tech tree, but when they eat each other, they pick up everything the other hives had researched?

Affirmative.

[thethird]

How does the swarmlord work? Is it kinda assuming direct control by the hive mind?

[Manticoran]

Yeah, it might be useful to think of the Swarmlord as a kind of Avatar of the Hive Mind or something.

To date, I believe we've got confirmed sightings with Kraken, Behemoth, and Leviathan. It basically pops up anywhere that the 'nids have a large concentration of fleet combined with a chance of actually losing.

And the entirety of 'nids are under "Direct control" of the Hive Mind. But it might be useful to think of different Fleets as being like a person who can split into parts and merge again. Each Fleet IS the Hive Mind, but they can't talk to each other/share memories until they merge. The Swarmlord existed before the Fleets split presumably, but... Also apparently stores memories even across Fleet movement, so there's something strange going on there too.