Warhammer 40K Fluff Thread XI - Juggling Idiot Balls

[Grim Portent]

How does the swarmlord work? Is it kinda assuming direct control by the hive mind?

Hive Tyrants possess a measure of freedom and personality, much like the Norn Queens and Dominatrix, and serve as field commanders for the fleets but aren't transferred between fleets. The Swarmlord is simply the greatest of Hive Tyrants and can be recreated by any of them.

If we assume the Nid fleets shared units are only available to them because of a shared heritage, with specific Tyrants being limited to their swarm and it's splinter fleets, the Swarmlord could be the first Hive Tyrant and therefore be able to be made by any fleet descended from the original swarm, with his memories being updated through the synaptic network.



The Hive Mind itself probably shouldn't be thought of as if it was one being. I prefer to think of it as being like the Geth from Mass Effect, the resultant 'mind' is the result of a form of discussion very alien to us but still composed of individuals only some of which participate in decision making process.

[The Glyphstone]

You'd think it would be vastly simpler, and easier, to just pay the first Rogue Trader he sees to play taxi, rather than wait for one who conveniently is carrying illegal cargo and blackmailing them on this fact. Give a Rogue Trader money and they'll basically do anything you want. But no, Abraxis has to play the hard-ass my-way-or-my-bolt-pistol Stormtrooper, cause the only Social skill they teach in Stormtrooper School is Intimidate.

[Artanis]

Hive fleets absorbing parts of each other makes sense to increase variation makes sense. Fighting each other beforehand doesn't in a evolution sense. If two species (or subspecies) compete for the same resources, after a while only one will win. Any adaptive advantages held by the loser will be lost.

Lets say hive fleet Kraken is in the TEQ meta..they evolved a lot of AP2/rending stuff. Hive fleet Behemoth is in the current meta, so has a lot of AP 4 ignores cover. If the two hivefleets meet and fight then the new fight fleet will only resemble either Kraken or Behemoth, not both.

Like Cheesegear said, that's not how it works. The loser's advantages aren't lost, they're put into the same storage compartment as the winner's advantages, ready to be called upon whenever they're needed. One fleet will stomp TEQ with its AP2 and the other fleet will stomp guys hiding in cover with its Ignores Cover, but the combined fleet will stomp both thanks to its large library of AP2 Ignores Cover options.

[Manticoran]

Well, not exactly. They'll have the capacity to make AP2 weapons and AP4 Ignore Cover weapons, and maybe SOME of that can get combined into AP2 Ignore Cover, but unlikely. More likely, you'd have a fleet that rather than having problems when it runs into Termies or Scouts in Cover, just uses the appropriate 'nid. MAYBE they'll get AP3 Ignore Cover as a combination, though?

It's not like you can take a Barbed Strangler and a Venom Cannon and put them together to get a Barbed Venom Cannon that has all of the best parts of both.

[Artanis]

Well, not exactly. They'll have the capacity to make AP2 weapons and AP4 Ignore Cover weapons, and maybe SOME of that can get combined into AP2 Ignore Cover, but unlikely. More likely, you'd have a fleet that rather than having problems when it runs into Termies or Scouts in Cover, just uses the appropriate 'nid. MAYBE they'll get AP3 Ignore Cover as a combination, though?

It's not like you can take a Barbed Strangler and a Venom Cannon and put them together to get a Barbed Venom Cannon that has all of the best parts of both.

I was trying to convey that the combined fleet could fight both opponents just as easily as either of the component fleets, but apparently went about it poorly. I'll try to lean more towards specific and less towards concise in the future.

[Drasius]

The Eldar quite strongly believe that if Kraken eats Leviathan (or vice versa), the result will be a mess of highly psychic, highly Synaptic brood of Fliers. I, for one, would very much like to see a psychic Harridan.

Then the eldar must have failed, because the pentyrant list is a thing, and everyone and their brother knows spamming flyrants (flying synaptic Psykers) is win. A case of life imitating "art" perhaps?

[Eldan]

Thing is, Leviathan has better fliers than Flyrants, and Kraken has better psychics than tyrants, at least in the fluff. If they combine, you wouldn't get flyrants as we know them. You'd get the various flier formations from Leviathan (some of which are quite, quite good), except the various Harridans, Crones and Harpies are also high-level psychics.

[Blackhawk748]

I love how Flax did almost the exact same thing as the main antagonist in Faith and Fire. Like im looking at that and going, "I've seen this before"

[Cheesegear]

How does the swarmlord work? Is it kinda assuming direct control by the hive mind?

Since The Swarmlord has been sighted many times, sporting many different coloured carapaces, it's more accurate to call it The Lord of the Swarm, and every Hive Fleet has one - apparently. The Swarmlord appears whenever adaptations and primal instincts aren't working. The Swarmlord appears when it turns out the Tyranids needs something that can think for itself. Presumably Norn Queens don't like it when one of their babies starts thinking for itself, and that's probably why he doesn't show up all that often.

The Swarmlord is not so much the Hive Mind taking direct control of the battle, more like, "We need to win this." Creating a Swarmlord construct is a panic move, because, yeah. It thinks for itself. Because The Swarmlord is also Synaptic, he not only exerts the Hive Mind's will, but he exerts his will on lesser creatures. If anything, throwing a Swarmlord into the mix is losing control of the Swarm.

Then the eldar must have failed, because the pentyrant list is a thing, and everyone and their brother knows spamming flyrants (flying synaptic Psykers) is win. A case of life imitating "art" perhaps?

Hive Tyrants are a standard template.
What you're really afraid of is Warriors with Zoanthrope powers, and Zoanthropes that can fly. Not to mention that instead of Sonic Screeches, you'd have Harpies that shoot Warp Blasts. Harridans going 'full Dragon' and gaining magic powers, etc.

[Cheesegear]

Double post.

But no, Abraxis has to play the hard-ass my-way-or-my-bolt-pistol Stormtrooper, cause the only Social skill they teach in Stormtrooper School is Intimidate.

See, I thought you were making a joke. But for reals, Intimidating people is literally the only thing they know how to do. The rest of the things they learn are 'Being A Man' Talents.

Spoiler: Glyphstone isn't even kidding

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Just to make sure, I checked Dark Heresy: Ascension for what happens with high ranking Storm Troopers (Abraxes is a Prime, after all)... Nope. Correct again. Higher ranked Storm Troopers can gain...
Talented (Command)
Talented (Intimidate)
...and that's it. A Tempestor Prime can tell you do something, and then he'll make you.

Abraxes' behaviour seems perfectly in line with what I know about Storm Troopers. He's a character written 100% correctly. If you ask me, it'd be weird if Abraxes tried diplomatic, non-violent solutions.

[Red Planet]

Discussion of rogue traders brought up a couple of questions for me. I know that rogue traders will sometimes have assistance from Space Marines, either as a one-off because they're owed a favour, or as a long-standing alliance or obligation between them. What I'm wondering is, what are some likely ways that such a relationship would come about? And how do the marines perceive the missions they undertake for RTs? I can see them being on board with 'bringing the light of the Emperor to unknown regions of the galaxy' etc, but I imagine they'd be less enthusiastic about being asked to help one trader 'confiscate' a rival's cargo, or assist in intimidating a colony into accepting a bad deal. Are they likely to only begrudgingly go along with what they see as an unfortunate duty, or would they see assisting an RT as an important and worthwhile use of their skills, as they are perceived as being important to the Imperium?

[Blackhawk748]

Discussion of rogue traders brought up a couple of questions for me. I know that rogue traders will sometimes have assistance from Space Marines, either as a one-off because they're owed a favour, or as a long-standing alliance or obligation between them. What I'm wondering is, what are some likely ways that such a relationship would come about? And how do the marines perceive the missions they undertake for RTs? I can see them being on board with 'bringing the light of the Emperor to unknown regions of the galaxy' etc, but I imagine they'd be less enthusiastic about being asked to help one trader 'confiscate' a rival's cargo, or assist in intimidating a colony into accepting a bad deal. Are they likely to only begrudgingly go along with what they see as an unfortunate duty, or would they see assisting an RT as an important and worthwhile use of their skills, as they are perceived as being important to the Imperium?

I have a feeling the RTs that get these kinds of deals are strictly on the Up and Up, otherwise i doubt that Space Marines would help them.

[Manticoran]

I have a feeling the RTs that get these kinds of deals are strictly on the Up and Up, otherwise i doubt that Space Marines would help them.

I'd be kind of surprised by that. Space Marines can be surprisingly on the Down and Down sometimes, especially if it's for the good of the Chapter or of the Imperium.

[Blackhawk748]

I'd be kind of surprised by that. Space Marines can be surprisingly on the Down and Down sometimes, especially if it's for the good of the Chapter or of the Imperium.

Oh right, not everyone acts like Ultramarines. I forget that quite a few act like Dark Angels.

[The Glyphstone]

Plus, I suspect even the RTs who get sweetheart deals with Space Marines have to be careful about when they call on that help and for what. I can't imagine any Chapter being willing to farm out their battle-brothers to confiscate a rival's cargo, as was suggested; that's way beneath a Marine's dignity even for a friend of the Chapter. But if there's some nasty Xenos or heretics on a planet the RT wants to colonize/mine/loot, most Chapters would be all over that as military support.

[Manticoran]

If nothing else, I imagine they have to worry a little bit about BECOMING the Space Marine's mission.

[Cheesegear]

What I'm wondering is, what are some likely ways that such a relationship would come about?

Providing support would be a start. It seems that you're fighting Tyranids and have run out of ammo. Isn't it totally lucky that I have all these Bolt-shells just lying around?
Providing extraction at a critical point would also be looked up as a highly favourable act. Space Marines are totally all in that 'honour-bound' nonsense, so saving a Space Marine's life, or a whole squad or half a Company or whatever would be pretty awesome.

A similar thing exists with House Belisarius and the Space Wolves. Belisarius Navigates for every. Single. Space Wolf ship. In turn, the Space Wolves outsource 24 Space Wolves - indicating that the Space Wolves have 24 Navigators - to the House for miscellaneous tasks. While the Space Wolves are honour-bound to the pact, the Wolves that get sent to glorified bodyguard duty aren't particularly happy about it.

That said, Navigators are indispensable. Especially for Space Wolves who hang around the Eye of Terror. The biggest Warp Storm ever. I don't think a Rogue Trader even comes close.

I can see them being on board with 'bringing the light of the Emperor to unknown regions of the galaxy' etc, but I imagine they'd be less enthusiastic about being asked to help one trader 'confiscate' a rival's cargo, or assist in intimidating a colony into accepting a bad deal.

Getting them to murder uncooperative xenos would be fairly straightforward, and if you know a rival Rogue Trader - or House - is committing Heresy - and you can prove it - convincing Space Marines to wipe out a rival would be fairly easy, too. At the very least, you can get them Investigated, and that's always fun.

Are they likely to only begrudgingly go along with what they see as an unfortunate duty

If it's beneath them, they wont do it. Marines have one job. Defending the Imperium from without and within. Unless the 'mission' you want from them is directly tied to hunting mutants, witches and heretics - and xenos - it's unlikely that they'll go along with it. Not impossible. Just unlikely. You'd need something special...Like having 24 Navigators serving at any given time for ten thousand years.

Duty and Honour only go so far. Even for Space Marines. Being assigned to The Wolfblade is form of exile for the Space Wolves. It's a joke. Space Wolves hold up their end of the deal by sending the Marines they don't like, as punishment.
So, the Space Marines that get assigned to Rogue Trader duty, LOL.

or would they see assisting an RT as an important and worthwhile use of their skills

Hell no. Like I said, Navigators are one of the cornerstones of the Imperium. You think a Rogue Trader House is more influential than a Navigator House?

[Red Planet]

Thanks folks, shed some light. Might have to try the Wolfblade novel/SW series at some point. How the different organisations of the Imperium interact with each other is among the most interesting parts of the setting to me.

[The Glyphstone]

Though it will depend on the Chapter. As mentioned, the Space Wolves use their pact with the Navigators as a dumping ground for screwups and internal embarassments. But the Space Wolves are also notorious for being hyper-independent and uncooperative towards other agencies of the Imperium, especially other Marines (a logical extension of their original duty as a Legion), especially when said agencies are indispensable. Of course they're going to be resentful of their end of the bargain, so while they'll uphold it (cause SPACE VIKINGS), it's a burden.

Comparatively, a chapter like the Ultramarines might take such a pact more seriously, if with a Titan-sized load of condescension hidden or otherwise. They're just doing their part to look out for the small squishy humans that they're meant to rule over protect. For Ultramarines, a stint on liaison duty might be something expected of anyone aspiring to high command rank, since they've got that whole statesman-diplomat thing going on and experience dealing with allies you can't automatically order around and whom squishing into paste would be impractical is useful. Or a group like the Salamanders, who are practically naive by 40K standards and still actually take their duty as guardians of the Imperium's people foremost. It'd still have to be something extremely up-and-up, but as long as they got to kill bad things with fire, a Salamander on extended liaison duty might actually enjoy it.

[Kris Strife]

Space Wolves might not be too objected to serving with some RTs. Beyond the going out and exterminating strange, new life forms and new civilizations, provided of course the RT and his crew treat them with respect. The Space Wolves are, as far as I know, the only chapter that drinks, feasts and carouses, and there probably aren't too many parties that are bigger and better than a Rogue Trader's.

[Red Planet]

For Ultramarines, a stint on liaison duty might be something expected of anyone aspiring to high command rank, since they've got that whole statesman-diplomat thing going on and experience dealing with allies you can't automatically order around and whom squishing into paste would be impractical is useful.

This is really interesting!

[bluntpencil]

Both the Marines Errant and Novamarines have traditions of helping out Rogue Traders for different reasons, as do many other Chapters.

[thethird]

Both the Marines Errant and Novamarines have traditions of helping out Rogue Traders for different reasons, as do many other Chapters.

I was just going to recommend loking over Marines Errant (boy there is a lot less info on lexicanum than in the wiki, I guess deathwatch is involved).

They are fleet based and marines can be stranded for long periods of time if they go on a particular quest, as the fleet moves on, so a RT can potentially offer them a ride in exchange of having the errant on board.

[Platinius]

Having a SM on board is great for defence of your ship and for your prestige/reputation, both very valuable commodities for any RT.

[Pilum]

Agree that the 'how' for a one-off favour is going to mainly involve pulling Astartes bacon out of the fire somehow. A secondary objective for many chapters could be to get out and have extra eyes in darker parts of the galaxy - whether it's for objects of great reverence (Vulkan's lost treasures), kit that's less spiritual but still significant ("I'm getting a weak machine-spirit communication from that ork ... thing that's a corrupted match of our tank pool alarm codes. I must provide absolution.") to simple intelligence gathering - especially if it's something you'd rather not have be noticed. That's a cracking idea for the Ultramarine officer training up there, too.

[shadow_archmagi]

Information is certainly a valuable commodity. I can definitely imagine a scenario where a Space Marine chapter finds out that Something Shiny is at X system, and a Rogue Trader gives them the fastest route into that system.

[comicshorse]

Pity the poor RT who earns a favour from the Iron Hands

[Cheesegear]

Both the Marines Errant and Novamarines have traditions of helping out Rogue Traders for different reasons, as do many other Chapters.

Marines Errant are a totally different kettle of fish.
The Errants loan out Companies, complete with Captain. Each Errant Captain is also in charge of his own Strike Cruiser. Not only is the Rouge Trader dealing with an SM Captain, he's dealing with Marines with their own ship, where he has no authority. In addition, if an Errant Captain is like most SM Captains, his sphere of authority is anywhere he happens to be. If a Captain walks aboard a Rogue Trader vessel...Look at me...He is the Captain now. In addition, the Marines Errant being in Companies, are not isolated. They're surrounded by their brothers, knowing an SM Captain is in charge.

Having one, two, five or ten Marines lower-ranked Marines, with the highest among them being a Sergeant, on someone else's ship, is completely different. The Errants do not operate that way. They send full Companies, with their own Captain, with a Strike Cruiser, and everything that that implies. Also, have you looked at the Errant's mission statement? Anything that a Rogue Trader finds is basically automatically the Errant's, by way of anything that is anywhere belongs to the Imperium, not the RT who finds it, and now we're confiscating it.

The Errants are not helping the Rogue Traders, insomuch as the RTs are helping them. If an RT is hanging around Errants, he definitely needs to be on the up-and-up, because pretty much anything the RT has in his hold that is worth anything at all, is probably getting confiscated - even if it's legal.

Information is certainly a valuable commodity. I can definitely imagine a scenario where a Space Marine chapter finds out that Something Shiny is at X system, and a Rogue Trader gives them the fastest route into that system.

Ghoul Stars. Marines Errant mapped it, with the help of a Rogue Trader who has already been there.

[Destro_Yersul]

The Errants are not helping the Rogue Traders, insomuch as the RTs are helping them. If an RT is hanging around Errants, he definitely needs to be on the up-and-up, because pretty much anything the RT has in his hold that is worth anything at all, is probably getting confiscated - even if it's legal.

Which leads to an interesting RPG campaign idea, where the concept is that the Rogue Trader party is buddying around with the Errant because their dynasty just got nearly obliterated by a much more powerful rival, and helping the Errant with stuff is a good way to have a strike cruiser sitting around as backup when their enemies come for them.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear Reads: The Shield of Baal

Spoiler: Previously in The Red Scar

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Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Warning
Breach!
Battle of Lysios
Battle of Asphodex
Battle of Ixoi
Battle of Aeros
Battle of Tartoros
The Dragon Strikes

With Psykers on the field, the Tyranids redouble their efforts on Asphodex, sending in even more waves of Tyrannocytes. Hydras spray the first few hundred, but then thousands more come down. Cadian Special Teams would run up to the Tyrannocytes, Melta- and Plasma Guns ready to blast the spores. But would run screaming from a noise that nobody could hear.

Neurothrope

• Zoanthropes burst out the Tyrannocytes, however, more than a few Zoans seem to be even bigger, and even more spine-tingleingly deadly. The newly-evolved Neurothropes were here to end the fight.
• Snipers line up shots. But the Neurothropes seem to know exactly when they get targeted. Hidden snipers fall to the ground, clutching their chests without knowing why. Shots untaken. With each kill, the Neurothropes glow more brightly, and more hotly.
• An Armoured Sentinel flanks a Zoanthrope Brood and vapes a Zoan. The 'soulthief' leader simply turns its attention to the Sentinels and blows away all three Sentinels in the Squadron.
• Genestealers leap from alleyways to jump on a Baneblade. Zoanthropes beam holes in the Super-Heavy Tank, and Genestealers rush into the opening, tearing apart everyone inside in close quarters.
• A massive-crested Hive Tyrant lands with his Tyrant Guard
• As if on cue, once the Hive Tyrant lands, all of the smaller creatures who had previously ducked into the sewers on Phodia come sprawling back out. The Swarm is no longer running straight into the Guards' bullets, but snaking and running serpentine through the ruins of the city.
• Dhrost orders his Ogryns into the fray. They make short work of the smaller Gaunts.
• The Hive Tyrant and his Tyrant Guard smash into the Ogryns. The Hive Tyrant wins combat by a bit, and the Ogryns fail their Morale check and run. The Hive Tyrant sweeps them and continues forwards.
• Lascannons target the Hive Tyrant. Within seconds of the first shot, the Hive Tyrant swivels his head...Genestealers approach the Lascannon nest and everyone dies. Another Lascannon shot, another head-swivel. Genestealers fall. Everyone dies.
• Ministorum Priests lead a Charge against Tyranid Warriors. The Priests die a hideous death.
• Neurothropes are basically unstoppable.

Looks Like We Arrived in the Nick of Time

• Suddenly, Phodia's sky is filled with Valkyries. Nose-Lascannons stabbing at the larger ones, while Heavy Bolter mounts on the sides strafe the smaller Tyranids.
• Scions drop out of the Valkyries with their Grav Chutes. Their Hot-Shot Lasguns killing more Tyranids before they hit the ground.
• Tempestor Prime Uther Abraxes' craft uses its Hellstrike Missiles to blow away some Sporocysts, clearing a landing zone.
• Abraxes notes that the flying organisms that Leviathan is famed for aren't on Asphodex. HOW CONVENIENT!? That means his Valkyries have free reign over the sky.
• Abraxes orders a strike at three, huge quadrapedal psyker-beasts. His craft's missiles hit oily ectoplasm, and do no effect. The Neurothrope on the ground beams a 'shadow' onto the Valkyrie. Abraxes braces for impact, but nothing happens. Abraxes is about to re-issue the order (how many Hellstrike Missiles do you have!?), when he notices that his craft's pilot and co-pilot are convulsing violently...Then both of their heads exploded.
• Bail, bail, bail! Abraxes can't hear anything. But he yells the order to his men.
• The Valkyrie nose-dives into the city. While Abraxes and his men jump out of the Valkyrie. Abraxes notices that all of his Valkyries are falling, their cockpits stained red from the inside.
• Scions are dying en masse to white-hot blasts of psychic energy. Abraxes notes that two-thirds of his men are dead, floating to the ground on their Grav-Chutes.
• Stercus, stercus, stercus, moritus sum. The three massive psyker-beasts (Maleceptors) come galloping at him. The Maleceptors plough through Ogryns like they're nothing.
• Abraxes takes cover behind a statue.
• Thump, thump, thump. Are they grenades going off? Or footsteps?
• Abraxes vision fades and returns as he sees a Maleceptor and several Zoanthropes surrounding his command squad.
• 'Uther Abraxes had time to see the head of his vox officer bursting redly before his own skull flew apart.'

WELL THAT SUCKS!
Tempestor Prime Uther Abraxes, is dead. Death by Tyranid Neural Node. Abraxes didn't even die well. He showed up to save the day...And got smashed instead. Still, Flax put Alpha Psykers on the battlefield...And the Tyranids responded. I don't like the idea that Leviathan has Maleceptors and Neurothropes, that sounds like a thing that should belong to Hive Fleet Kraken. I'm not saying that any Hive Fleet can evolve super-Psykers, I'm just disappointed that we don't really see major differences in the Hive Fleets when we should.

• Cadians are in full retreat. They thought the Militarum Tempestus would save them...And they absolutely didn't. But, it's Flax's fault for escalating the fight, right?
• Only the evac zone remained green. Everywhere else in Phodia belonged to the Tyranids now.
• The Psykers that Flax had brought to the fight are now screaming in agony from pain that only they can feel. Ogryn corpses are liberally ripped apart. Tyrands met force with greater force, and the Ogryns had borne the brunt of most of that escalating force.
• Squad after squad arrives at the evac site. Unfortunately, by the time they arrive, the site is no longer green. Guns drop, hope drains from faces. 'The evac vessels were buried under a shifting horde of armoured bioforms, some of them as large as hab-blocks.' Well...There are officially Tyranid Bio-Titans on Asphodex. Not that they're ever called as such and they've never been referenced before. But, if they're as big as hab-blocks, then that's what the writers have written.

Flax and Dhrost are nowhere to be seen. Where have they gone?

Find out next time in The Shield of Baal...