Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights.

[Cheesegear]

What did the Scions achieve Cheese?

Deep Strike in to double Melta to destroy a Vehicle (Drop Pod) and then ObSec'd an Objective off of me in the same turn, netting 2 VPs. 90 Points for 2 VPs sounds like a good trade.

Was it just for deep striking melta and the Commisar as a tax

No nefarious plan. That's exactly what happened. MTs can Deep Strike anywhere they want thanks to MTC, and the Commissar was held in Reserve-to-not-die as a tax, since he can't ride in an Inquisitor's transport, because nerf.

I submitted my terracon list today

Is Terracon using the new FAQs Errata? Fish of Fury make me sad if that's the case. Or you can just not Jink. A 'Fish is AV12 and generally good for it.

[Drasius]

Is Terracon using the new FAQs Errata? Fish of Fury make me sad if that's the case. Or you can just not Jink. A 'Fish is AV12 and generally good for it.

Nope, they came out too close to list submission, so my breachers are free to fire at their disgracefully low native BS even if the 'Fish jinks. If I had a few more markerlights to throw around, I would've taken less breachers and got D-pods, but alas, comp is rough on tau and I wanted to field a bunch of hammerheads and skyrays, and that eats up a bunch of comp. Hopefully people see the breachers and the lack of d-pods and decide to allocate more firepower than they probably should to them. I've found that they're fairly effective at drawing fire away from the hammerheads (probably because the hammerheads are far less effective and I should have simply taken 6 'Fish full of breachers and a single AIC). Still, spamming Hammers is what I wanted to achieve and win, lose or draw, it's what I'm going with.

Some fairly rough lists coming out for this year, so it's going to be interesting.

Edit: Found this whilst browsing dakka, prepare to be underwhelmed;



Bad weapons, bad wargear, meh rules, restricted to one chapter, boring model. What a chump.

[Cheesegear]

Bad weapons, bad wargear, meh rules, restricted to one chapter, boring model. What a chump.

Don't forget, he's restricted to the U.S. only.

The thing that bothers me, is that nobody uses Tactical Doctrine to make Boltguns better. Tactical Doctrine is to ensure that your Meltas actually hit and that you're Combi-Meltas aren't wasted by missing. The secondary use for Tactical Doctrine is to ensure that your Plasma weapons roll less 1s on Rapid Fire.

[Tehnar]

Bolters, lasguns and the like exist anymore? Or are they just purchased in the minimum amount necessary to get to the better weapons?

Unless your basic weapon has a super duper special rule like gauss or rending or whatever the eldar one is, why even bother? Was there ever a time in a tournament game where a game would be won if he just took more marines with bolters? And I'm not talking about objective secured marines, but actual bolter fire making a difference?

My opinion is that its sad that such guns are no longer relevant.

[Cheesegear]

Bolters, lasguns and the like exist anymore? Or are they just purchased in the minimum amount necessary to get to the better weapons?

Bolters exist, it's how you mow down 5+ Armour Infantry. Unfortunately, because of Boltguns, 5+ Armour is no longer relevant to The Meta. Boltguns have essentially determined The Meta. Does your Infantry have 5+ Armour? If yes, then you need an Invulnerable or FNP. A Cover Save would be nice, but you still have 5+ Armour and a Template weapon will kill you. Hence the reason for AP4, Ignores Cover being the best.

Boltguns are the minimum. They exist, and serve as the lowest benchmark; You must be this good to pass.

[Turalisj]

So, my local group is doing a very back to basics style campaign... One thousand points, CAD only, no superheavies, and no special characters that modify how a list is built. I'm thinking a very simple Grey Knights list with a Grand Master, two units of terminators, a unit of Strike Knights, and a unit of Purgation Knights camping out in a lascannon armed razorback. It should be a fun enough list to run, using the termies to clear obj markers and punch out vehicles.

[Cheesegear]

So, my local group is doing a very back to basics style campaign... One thousand points, CAD only, no superheavies, and no special characters that modify how a list is built. I'm thinking a very simple Grey Knights list with a Grand Master, two units of terminators, a unit of Strike Knights, and a unit of Purgation Knights camping out in a lascannon armed razorback. It should be a fun enough list to run, using the termies to clear obj markers and punch out vehicles.

Sounds like an event I went to not too long ago. I should probably get around to writing a report on it.

Your Grand Master should immediately be replaced by;
Librarian; ML3, Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Book - 165 Points

There's absolutely no reason not to. Replace the Hammer with Melta Bombs if you want.
Remember that Grenades no longer kill Vehicles, and you'll need more Hammers and Melta Bombs that you used to have.
Incinerators are amazing.

No Dreadknights makes me sad. But it is 1000 Points, and DKs are expensive, so I'll let it slide. Although if it were me in 1000 Points, I'd take more Strike Knights to specifically make room for more Dreadknights. Also nothing that I would drop said Strike Knights the second I had more points to spend.

[Turalisj]

Another thought is Cult Mechanicus.... but how good are they without their special formation?

Spoiler: Cult Mechanicus

Show

+++ Campagn Cult Mechanicus (1000pts) +++

++ Cult Mechanicus: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Dominus [Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Conversion field, Infoslave Skull, Phosphor serpenta, Volkite blaster]

+ Troops +

Kataphron Destroyers
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]

Kataphron Destroyers
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]

Kataphron Destroyers
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
Kataphron Destroyer [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robot Maniple
Cybernetica Datasmith [Anzion’s Pseudogenetor, Conversion field, Infoslave Skull]
Kastelan Robot [Heavy phosphor blaster, Twin-linked heavy phosphor blaster]
Kastelan Robot [Heavy phosphor blaster, Twin-linked heavy phosphor blaster]

I have.... Wow, 5 armies that could fill out a list for this campaign.

So, for Necrons

Spoiler

Show

+++ Necrons Campaign (995pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Cryptek [Staff of Light, The Veil of Darkness]

Overlord [Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Resurrection Orb, Voidreaper]

+ Elites +

Lychguard
10x Lychguard [10x Hyperphase Sword & Dispersion Shield]

+ Troops +

Warriors [Ghost Ark, 15x Necron Warrior]

Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

Feels really... bare. But, I'm taking 10 Lychguard, and the cyptek and overlord jump in the group to hop around the table stabbing things. Or they ignore the Lychstar and try to go for the warriors, who just camp an objective while the ghost ark hides behind something.

[Blackhawk748]

They are great even without their formation, cuz Grav Cannons.

[Cheesegear]

Another thought is Cult Mechanicus.... but how good are they without their special formation?

I think they're way too slow, and the nerf to the Taxi Service makes them unplayable by themselves.
a) It's 1000 Points, every army is going to have problems of one sort or another...Except Space Marines and Eldar.
b) Speed doesn't matter if you aren't playing Maelstrom. I find it hard to believe that you'll be playing Maelstrom in 1000 Points, though.

If you're not playing Maelstrom, the Mechanicus is super durable, and with two different guns you can deal with pretty much anything, it does well.

[JNAProductions]

So question-what would be reasonable point values for all the CSM Special Characters? I know that some of them (Abaddon, Ahriman) are overpriced, but what about guys like Typhus, or Kharne?

[Requizen]

So, for Necrons

Spoiler

Show

+++ Necrons Campaign (995pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Cryptek [Staff of Light, The Veil of Darkness]

Overlord [Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Resurrection Orb, Voidreaper]

+ Elites +

Lychguard
10x Lychguard [10x Hyperphase Sword & Dispersion Shield]

+ Troops +

Warriors [Ghost Ark, 15x Necron Warrior]

Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

Feels really... bare. But, I'm taking 10 Lychguard, and the cyptek and overlord jump in the group to hop around the table stabbing things. Or they ignore the Lychstar and try to go for the warriors, who just camp an objective while the ghost ark hides behind something.

That's because Necron characters are really pricey for what they do, except Crypteks. Overlords and Lords are just really expensive beatsticks that don't bring much else to an army other than tanking wounds and maybe carrying a useful Relic.

Don't take Lychguard in low point games, at least not in those numbers. You need to be able to spread out, and one semi deathstar that's walking ain't gonna cut it. If you really want to bring them, keep the numbers small. 1000 points will take a long time to chew through even 5-6 Lychguard, especially with 4+ RP and an Overlord tanking the wounds. Spend the points on Tomb Blades, if you have them.

[DaedalusMkV]

So question-what would be reasonable point values for all the CSM Special Characters? I know that some of them (Abaddon, Ahriman) are overpriced, but what about guys like Typhus, or Kharne?

Abaddon is tricky. If Chaos Marines had any decent way to deliver him into combat, he'd totally justify that pricetag. In melee he stomps all over basically everything in the game (at-initiative AP2 and S8 Shred on the same chassis, all at I-better-than-you with a million attacks? Yes please!) and he's harder to kill than a full-sized Terminator squad, which makes him an absolute Challenge machine. The problem is he's in a codex that absolutely doesn't work well with Terminator armour at all. Your choices are to buy him a crappy Chaos Land Raider and put 800 points into one basket in the hopes your opponent doesn't have the means to kill AV14 or Deep Strike him with no mitigation whatsoever and no ability to manipulate your reserves in-army. And he must be the Warlord, which means you can't even roll Strategic to hope for improving your Reserves rolls that way. In generic Space Marines, where you could drop him in on turn 1 guaranteed in a Drop Pod? You'd see him on the table pretty regularly. I mean, this is a guy who puts down a Wraithknight in two close combat phases, completely unaided*, then turns around and cuts the other guy's Chapter Master down before his Initiative step rolls around, all while packing T5, 4 wounds, good saves and Eternal Warrior.

Kharne is pretty much fine where he is. Again, in a better codex Kharne would be quite deadly. For his points he hits harder than basically anything else in the game, and his Warlord trait is one of if not the best in his book. He can pretty reliably cut down an Imperial Knight in one CC phase, and that's no mean accomplishment. If you had a good way to deliver him into CC you'd be set.

Typhus is, likewise, pretty reasonably priced. I don't think you'd need to tweak him much, especially thanks to his fairly potent psychic abilities.

The rest obviously have some problems. Ahriman as-written is worth around 170 points, and would still be a hard sell when you could have an ML3 Sorcerer on a Disc with a Spell Familiar for a similar price tag. Lucius is a budget hero priced at premium, and really shouldn't cost more than 120 points at the top end, and even then nobody would waste a Chaos HQ slot on him. Fabius Bile is pretty much a total joke, and there's basically nothing that could convince me to waste an HQ slot on something like him when I could have a Sorcerer or Chaos Lord. He needs a rewrite to make him actually useful, not just a points adjustment.

For the most part, the CSM HQ slot is the best in-book. Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are both competitively priced with Space Marine equivalents and bring some very powerful abilities to the table, and Kharne and Abaddon are both top-tier melee monsters. The problem is the only ways to play CSM semi-competitively are Typhus tarpit lists and hyper-speed Bike and Spawn rush lists backed by Obliterators. Which means if you're taking an HQ slot, it needs to either buff Oblit shooting (IE be a Balestar Sorcerer) or be on a Bike or Juggernaut. It's not Abaddon's fault his codex has no means whatsoever to get him where he needs to be, and it's not Kharne's fault he didn't bring a Bike to the book that only hits melee with Bikes and Beasts.

*Except for the chumps who take the Ghostglaive to the face for him. About the only thing in the game Abby can't take a ton of hits from and keep on trucking is Str D.

[Cheesegear]

So question-what would be reasonable point values for all the CSM Special Characters? I know that some of them (Abaddon, Ahriman) are overpriced

Abaddon: You can make a rough approximation of Abaddon for ~225 Points or so. Not that the Chaos Lord would be legal, but Abaddon's wargear adds up to 225 Points or so. Then Abaddon picks up an extra point of WS, an extra Wound and an Attack. He comes stock with a decent Warlord Trait, and picks up Eternal Warrior while he's at it. Also makes Chosen, Troops. While en masse Chosen is garbage, one unit of Chosen with ObSec is pretty good - like Thousand Sons.

Abaddon is not overpriced. For the amount of points you pay for him, you get exactly what you pay for. The problem is that the Chaos Codex sucks. Abaddon has one use; In a Slaanesh Chosen (ObSec) unit, in a Dedicated (also ObSec) Dreadclaw.

Abaddon is great. It's the rest of the Codex that's the problem.

Huron Blackheart: If anything, he's undercosted. He's great. But the rest of the Codex sucks.

Kharn the Betrayer: If anything, he's undercosted. He's great. But the rest of the Codex sucks.

Ahriman: Ahriman is a Chaos Lord with one less Weapon Skill. His wargear comes out to around ~200 Points, given 25 points per Mastery Level, for a total of 100 Points. You then pay ~30 Points for the Black Staff, which is amazing, 'cause Psychic Shriek doesn't roll To Hit anymore. Get spammed. Alternatively, Smite and Life Leech are routinely fired off by Ahriman since Ahriman loves rolling for Iron Arm, and sometimes doesn't get it. Like Huron, Ahriman also comes stock with the best Warlord Trait in the book. Like Abaddon, he also makes a very expensive unit, Troops, so you probably don't want more than one units of them. So, Ahriman is perfectly costed. It's the rest of the Codex that sucks.

Typhus: He comes to about 180 Points or so. Then pays another ~50 for an extra Wound, for FNP, which can be taken against Perils wounds for when you want to use Typhus to Summon, because it's better than rolling on the Nurgle table. Typhus also gets The Destroyer Hive, which is kind of fun for nuking a crap tarpit that he doesn't want to be fighting. He makes Plague Marines, Troops, and they're nice to have one or two units running around with double Melta in a Rhino. His Warlord Trait sucks. Then he has Manreaper, which is decent, seeing as how he's T5, with 2+ Armour and FNP, so he's fine with going last. Then he's paying however many points he's paying for Plague Zombies.

Lucius the Eternal: He shouldn't cost any more than 140 or so. Even if he did, the rest of the Codex would still suck.

Fabius Bile: His wargear isn't really anything, and his only defense is FNP. He shouldn't cost any more than 100 or so. Being generous, he should be 120, tops.

Basically, Chaos have excellent HQs all things considered. Which should be the case. They have specific rules in their book that actively incentivise them to play HeroHammer, and Chaos Marines have some really good Heroes - that's the point. Unfortunately, once you leave the HQ section of the book, you get sad, real fast.

inb4;
If your next question is 'How to make Chaos good then?', I can answer that for you fairly easily.
1. Drop Pods that don't cost over 100 Points.
2. Infiltrate/Scout/Outflank on certain units as standard, and
3. An MFD that doesn't suck.

[JNAProductions]

So (since I'm doing a rewrite of the CSM codex) how many points would Abaddon be if he had a Sigil of Corruption, bringing his Invulnerable Save to a 3+?

Leave Kharne, Huron, and Typhus the same.

Drop Lucius to 140.

And for Fabius, what if he instead gave any infantry unit the option to gain Fearless and +1S for 5 Points a model?

Edit: Completed (tentatively) my CSM Update, except for Renegade Tactics (the equivalent of Chapter Tactics). Any thoughts on what those could be?

[lord_khaine]

Im not sure there is anything that would be able to face Abbadon in CC without a S-D weapon if you improve his profile further.
So he should most likely get a lot more expensive. And is it even nececary to do that, if your already improving the rest of the Chaos codex?

[JNAProductions]

Im not sure there is anything that would be able to face Abbadon in CC without a S-D weapon if you improve his profile further.
So he should most likely get a lot more expensive. And is it even nececary to do that, if your already improving the rest of the Chaos codex?

That's legit. I'll get rid of the Sigil. I will, however, add the rule "First to the Fray" which lets him Deep Strike Turn one.

[Cheesegear]

So (since I'm doing a rewrite of the CSM codex)

Why? The Legion Crusade Army Lists already exist. Forge World have stated that with the exception of the Primarchs, 30K is legal in 40K.
The only thing you lose are the Daemonic units and Spawn. If you are homebrewing, insert them into the Legiones Astartes and done.
Any meta that doesn't allow 30K sure as Hell isn't going to allow homebrew.

Posted from phone.

[Requizen]

Why? The Legion Crusade Army Lists already exist. Forge World have stated that with the exception of the Primarchs, 30K is legal in 40K.
The only thing you lose are the Daemonic units and Spawn. If you are homebrewing, insert them into the Legiones Astartes and done.
Any meta that doesn't allow 30K sure as Hell isn't going to allow homebrew.

Posted from phone.

Anyone have a guide to starting a 30k Legion? I was interested in pursuing that route, but have no idea how to do it since I don't have the FW books.

Also, how does 30k stack up to 40k in power levels? A lot of our recent events started allowing 30k armies, is it worth even trying?

[JNAProductions]

Why? The Legion Crusade Army Lists already exist. Forge World have stated that with the exception of the Primarchs, 30K is legal in 40K.
The only thing you lose are the Daemonic units and Spawn. If you are homebrewing, insert them into the Legiones Astartes and done.
Any meta that doesn't allow 30K sure as Hell isn't going to allow homebrew.

Posted from phone.

I don't have any of the 30k rules. Where are they available?

[Turalisj]

Anyone have a guide to starting a 30k Legion? I was interested in pursuing that route, but have no idea how to do it since I don't have the FW books.

Also, how does 30k stack up to 40k in power levels? A lot of our recent events started allowing 30k armies, is it worth even trying?

Fairly well, they have a few different rules and a different detachment setup, but they don't operate too differently form their modern brethren. I frequently play against 30k Death Guard and World Eaters, and they stomp me pretty good >.>

[Cheesegear]

Anyone have a guide to starting a 30k Legion?

I made one a while back, but that was for 6th Ed., and the advent of Eldar/7, ObSec and Maelstrom means I have to do a new one.

I was interested in pursuing that route, but have no idea how to do it since I don't have the FW books.

If Vaz was around, he knows far more than I do. But I don't know if he plays 40K, or just 30K.
I do know that the Horus Heresy box actually is a good start for most Legions.

Also, how does 30k stack up to 40k in power levels?

Orbital Assault is basically ObSec'd Drop Pods, and that's as good as it always is.
Pride of the Legion is actually worth doing, since Elite units in 30K are actually Elite, and not just Troops that cost extra points. Which saves you money by spending more points. If you're building on a budget, Pride of the Legion is probably the way to go. But, I happen to have Drop Pods for 40K, and they haven't changed much in ten thousand years, so 40K Drop Pods transfer to 30K.

Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard, being the 'trial' Legions, are generally considered the worst that 30K has to offer (but I say that without having read HH6). Said Legions only 'git gud' when you add Special Characters. When I do another full review of the Legions and how they perform in 7th, I'll get back to you. I've got a couple of weeks spare soon, and I'll do it then. It's coming. I will guarantee that, now. Horus Heresy 6 has apparently changed a number of Legions. So I'll need to get my hands on that. Well. I'm waiting for it. Since I've bought it anyway because it has Garro (proto-Inquisitor) and Blackshields (precursor Deathwatch) in it, and I love Garro and Deathwatch.

Iron Hands are silly strong in the current meta (vs. Eldar), since shooting attacks are at -1 Strength against them, which Scat Packs do less damage, and you need S9 - turns to S8 - to double them out. Night Lords are good, but come with significant drawbacks, so they're average in the larger scheme of things.
Word Bearers are the only Legion that is Battle Brothers with Chaos Daemons. Any of their HQs can have Mastery Level 1 with Telepathy and Biomancy (not Div).

Iron Warriors in 7th don't tend to Score a whole lot, and they go for Tablings, which, to be fair, they can do.

Alpha Legion and Raven Guard dominate 30K, in 40K, they'd be near the top. They're on par with the current Kor'sarro Battle Company. So...That's all I'll say on that.

In short, the Legions are good. Some are certainly better than others, 30K is just as broke as 40K (and I'm looking directly at Alpha Legion). So, yeah. In 40K terms, it stacks up rather well. Depending on the Legion, I'd put them above Necrons or Daemons. They don't beat the Gladius (believe me, I checked), and Eldar are still stupid, no matter what.

The Legion's major disadvantage is that they do not ATSKNF, which means they take Fear checks like noobs, same as everyone else, and, obviously, they can be Swept in Assault, which is a kick in the teeth for those of us (wink, wink) who are used to Space Marines, rather than Astartes.

EDIT:
Word-of-mouth says that the 30K Mechanicum and Solar Auxilla happen to be quite strong in 40K. But I don't have first-hand experience of it. So take that for whatever it's worth.

[Drasius]

Compare Abbadon to Chapter master smashface and prepare to be thoroughly disappointed.

Abby is more expensive, moves half the distance, has a worse invulnerable save, can't sweep, doesn't get adamantium will, has no chapter tactics, has a bad warlord trait, must be the warlord, lacks an orbital and can lose all his wargear and turn into a spawn or naked daemon prince for doing the thing that he has to do. In return, he gets str 5 AP2 at I6 and WS7. Whoo? In a casual game where people forget to take a counter to a land raider he can do some work provided it's not hammer and anvil, but he's basically an infantry version of the swarmlord, except Abbadon can't even take his own drop pod without FW.

Kharn is probably ~10 points too cheap. He's extremely killy, absurdly so since he can effectively ignore invisibility, but suffers from the same issues as Abbadon while also being a single 5++ away from being a smear to the abundance of str 8 that gets thrown around so easily these days. Fortunely he is cheap and killy, so the mandatory land raider tax isn't quite as bad. Also suffers from not-a-juggerlord syndrome, because you can make a slightly less killy but somewhat tougher lord on a jugger with MoK, Axe of Blind Fury and a sigil for 5 points over kharn, stick him with some ablative spawn and go rampage through anything that's not a superheavy walker.

Huron is about as close to 1/2 of Abbadon as you can get, but also comes stock with the budget version of the best strategic warlord trait, is a psycher (albeit an unreliable one) and sufficiently punchy to win more than his fair share of challenges considering his points. The lack of AP2 is the only thing holding him back from taking the title of best named character in the book away from Kharn. That one time he rolls iron arm though...

Ahriman can have his moments, but the loss of a spell level to the Tz discipline hurts (hurts less if you roll doombolt though), as does his lack of a spell familiar. He only unlocks TSons though and you can get all the benefits and more from a ML3 unmarked sorc with a spell familiar, bike and sigil for less points. Also comes with the same trait as huron, but is 60 points more. If you don't get Iron Arm, prepare to lose him to the first krack missile that he can't LOS. Compare him to Tigurius and Ahriman comes up short IMHO.

Everyone except me always loved typhus. Now that zombies get no saves at all against scatbikes, very few people bother anymore since a nurgle fisticlaw biker lord with sigil will give you plague marines for better and cheaper. Same old story as the rest of the dex, stuck moving 6" a turn, no threat projection, no real options outside of a land raider. Nurgle has all the love in this codex since their generic lords are some of the best, their cult troops are the best, the MoN is vastly superior to all others on virtually every unit that can take it and T6 bikers are no joke.

Lucy is a joke, what sort of master duelist forgets to bring an AP2 weapon to a challenge? He could be 120 points instead of 160 and still would never see the table. Seriously, go look at the Empror's Champion and then caompare that option that rarely sees the light of day to the falming pile of fail that is Lucius.

At the very least, Fabulous Bill makes a unit of troops fearless, so he could be worse (see: Lucius). There is at least one amusing thing you can do in combination with one of the new formations, and that's make a blob of 20 CSM str 8 on the charge with 4 attacks each and hatred. It's never going to be something you can bank on, and it almost certainly won't work if you don't sieze the initative, but that one time a bunch of marines tear down an imperial knight barehanded, it's pretty funny.

IMHO, the only options you ever saw was Typhus back when zombies were worth a damn and sometimes Kharn. Every other time it's a mix of Juggerlord, fisticlaw nurgle biker or unmarked Sorc on bike, usually some combination of the 3. Very occassionally people try and make an infiltrating list work with Huron, but I've never seen it pay off with any real consistancy. The HQ section, while pretty good, can't carry the rest of the codex (and neither can baledrakes and oblits, though they try).

Everyone else is indeed correct when they say that since CSM lacks a way to get into combat that their HQ options will always be lacking, but the complete and utter lack of a 2+ save outside of a single relic in a supplement or terminator armour, a 3++ requireing a minimum 40 point investment and locking you into the worst mark, lack of relevant bonuses, forced challenges, lack of support from the remainder of the codex, overpriced junk in virtually every slot and absolute rubbish for formations means that you are going to struggle to pin down what the HQ's should cost since it would need the rest of the dex to work before you can make a real call.

On the subject of 30k, as I understand it, the general consensus is that 30k gets its lunch money taken at 1850 or lower, it evens out at 2k or above and by 3k, you'd better hide-yo'-children-an'-hide-yo'-wife.

Still, just like 40k, there's different levels of lists in 30k, especially considering literally your entire list is forgeworld, so you can go from the DKoK roughrider end of the spectrum through to the sabre weapon platform end in the same way you can go from Thousand Sons all the way through to wraithknights in 40k.

One interesting thing possibly in 30k is an arbitrarily high number of wounds.

Spoiler

Show

-BA characters with the option for a volkite serpenta may instead take a hand flamer.
-Moritats may take Volkite Serpentas.
-Moritats may chain fire a pistol weapon until they miss.
-Place flamer template, roll to wound, repeat, until even an ork would concede that enough dakka has indeed been reached
-?
-Profit
-Remove any models in target unit within 8" unless T>6

This bring us to mechanicum, where you can bring T7 monstrous creatures as troops and T5 jet pack infantry as troops with T8 MC's as heavy support. In a meta where EVERYONE gears for anti MEQ/TEQ and AV. Mechanicum can be compleatly and utterly broken if they so choose. Apparently solar Auxilia can do something similar with their cheap as chips lasrifle sections and can also do a mean impression of the power axe guard blob, but in their version, everyone has a power axe.

The group of 30k players up here have basically bought themselves into a stalemate since it's basically rock/paper/scissors as everyone's list either hard-counters or is hard-countered by someone elses, to the point where quite a few games are not even played because the outcome is so obvious. A good example of such imbalance is a WE infantry list against an IW "Ironfire" RoW. If there's anything in WE colours on the board by the bottom of turn 2, I'd be amazed.

Edit: Remember, 30k scoring is basically 6th ed with a couple of exceptions. Infantry only, troops only and anything with implacable advance are scoring, anything else is contesting only (sometimes not even that IIRC). That only matters if you're playing 30k rules instead of playing a 30k army against a 40k army with 40k rules though, but bear in mind that that is factored into how HH stuff is priced, alledgedly.

Also - link to one of the better forums: http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/
Plenty of advice on how to start HH there. The 30k section on dakka is also a decent resource. Be aware that you'll get the casual-at-all-costs talk from most people though, so if that bothers you, you'll have to filter quite a few threads.

[Cheesegear]

Compare Abbadon to Chapter master smashface

No.
Compare a Kern'gar Juggerlord to Smashface. Compare Abaddon to Marneus Calgar. And least pretend you're not making false equivalencies.

Calgar is 275 Points. He has five, I5, S8 AP2 attacks. Four Wounds and Eternal Warrior. He can pick his Warlord Trait off the Space Marine Table, which is usually going to be FNP. But free Rending is nice, too. Depends on your opponent. Calgar is also a LoW, meaning you have to take another HQ first (hint; It's Tigurius). For whatever it's worth, Calgar also packs an Orbital Strike.

Abaddon - 10 points less - has an extra point of WS, an extra point of Toughness, I6, and if using his Daemon Weapon, way more attacks than Calgar.

Calgar is actually used in games, whereas Abaddon is not. Even though Abaddon is better, for less.

What's the difference? The difference is in retinue. Space Marines get Honour Guard, with 2+ Saves and Power Weapons/Relic Blades, or, Vanguard with Lightning Claws and Power Fists and Storm Shields. Those are the guys that Calgar hangs out with. Ultramarine Super Friends. It's a thing. In addition, 8-9 of those, plus Calgar, can ride in a Drop Pod to be inserted into your opponent's DZ on Turn 1. Sideways.

Meanwhile, Abaddon looks at his super-sweet wargear, stares at himself in the mirror, then says "Who's with me!?", and Abaddon's bodyguard try real hard to be looking at anything other than Abaddon...His shoes are nice...Abaddon looks at his men. Fine, he'll pick himself. "Who has got a Power Weapon or Lightning Claw?" a maximum of four Chosen put their hand up, "Okay. Good, but it'll do. How many of you guys have 2+ Saves or an Invulnerable?" The Chosen look at each other... Abaddon shoots them all for being incompetent. "Who's got a Power Fist?" The Chosen point to the dead guys on the floor. "No." says Abaddon. "Those guys have Lightning Claws. Who has the Power Fists?" The Chosen point to the dead bodies. "Only those guys can have weapons." Abaddon shoots the rest of his Chosen.
Abaddon, looks at his bridge. "Where's my Drop Pod!?" ...Abaddon's Officer of the Fleet suddenly has anywhere to be that isn't on the bridge.

On the subject of 30k, as I understand it, the general consensus is that 30k gets its lunch money taken at 1850 or lower

I've found that at 2000 Points, it's basically a 1600 Point army, plus a Primarch or other LoW.
In 40K, removing the Primarch simply takes you down to 1600 Points, and you have to fill that spare 250 with something that doesn't suck. Some Legions (*cough*World Eaters*cough*) are simply terrible without their Primarch. But, yeah. Playing 1850 is super dependent on your Legion of choice, and how well it fares without its Primarch.

it evens out at 2k

AKA; Everyone gets a Primarch.

[Drasius]

No.
Compare a Kern'gar Juggerlord to Smashface. Compare Abaddon to Marneus Calgar. And least pretend you're not making false equivalencies.

Calgar is 275 Points. He has five, I5, S8 AP2 attacks. Four Wounds and Eternal Warrior. He can pick his Warlord Trait off the Space Marine Table, which is usually going to be FNP. But free Rending is nice, too. Depends on your opponent. Calgar is also a LoW, meaning you have to take another HQ first (hint; It's Tigurius). For whatever it's worth, Calgar also packs an Orbital Strike.

Abaddon - 10 points less - has an extra point of WS, an extra point of Toughness, I6, and if using his Daemon Weapon, way more attacks than Calgar.

Calgar is actually used in games, whereas Abaddon is not. Even though Abaddon is better, for less.

I'll respond to the last point first in that I have never, ever seen calgar used even once since SM got their 7th ed book (mainly because he doesn't fit with a gladius and why would you not take a gladius for free wins?). I have, however, seen Abbadon used in game (one of the guys up here already had every single one of the new black legion formations ready to go when the book came out, it was almost as if someone had looked at his army and then made the formations to suit) multiple times. He either fails his reserve roll and doesn't show up until turn 4 once the game is over, comes in on time and gets shot to pieces before he can do anything or makes a bunch of saves and then rampages around the place stomping stuff. 60%* of the time, it works everytime.

The problem with a kerngar juggerlord is that he's not an actual juggerlord because you can only have 1 relic per model, so it's either the skull or the axe, not both, and if you're taking a fist (instead of the AoBF), you might as well be a nurgle biker lord, at which point you're T6, so you don't need eternal warrior anymore. One of the main points of the juggerlord was the bunch of extra attacks he gets that a dude with a fist doesn't. That loss of 3-7 extra attacks at initiative 5 is HUGE.

Also, Abbadon isn't a LoW (yet, bookies aren't even taking bets that it won't happen, but GW chaos is fickle...). I really don't see how you think Abbadon is better than Calgar anyway, Calgar craps all over Abbadon rules-wise.

Compare skull of kerngar to shield eternal - 40 points for adamantium will and EW vs 50 points for a 3++, Ad Will and EW. There's a reason (beyond being in the terrible BL supplement that puts an additional tax on already terrible units) that no-one ever takes it, because MoN on a bike is better for cheaper.

* - Actual % is more like 30%, but that would ruin the joke, wouldn't it?

I've found that at 2000 Points, it's basically a 1600 Point army, plus a Primarch or other LoW.
In 40K, removing the Primarch simply takes you down to 1600 Points, and you have to fill that spare 250 with something that doesn't suck. Some Legions (*cough*World Eaters*cough*) are simply terrible without their Primarch. But, yeah. Playing 1850 is super dependent on your Legion of choice, and how well it fares without its Primarch.

Depends, we don't see Primarchs all the time up here, but that could just be the local meta, even at 3k. It's more a fact that the contents of your legions spartan isn't quite such a large portion of your list that now you can add in that 10 man lascannon heavy weapons squad or put a pair of fire raptors in or take a quad mortar battery with phosphex shells and a pair of sicarans or ally in some mechanicum thallax and a thanatar or anyone one of the other firgeworld broken things of broken-ness that gives everyone fits and forgeworld its reputation.

[Cheesegear]

I'll respond to the last point first in that I have never, ever seen calgar used even once since SM got their 7th ed book (mainly because he doesn't fit with a gladius and why would you not take a gladius for free wins?).

Oh noes. It looks like you've fallen into the 'If it's not the best, it's the worst.' trap again.
Calgar absolutely fits into the Gladius. That's why he's so damn good.

Spoiler

Show

Ultramarines, Gladius Strike Force
- Battle Company
Captain Sicarius - 175 Points
Chaplain; Auspex, Melta Bombs - 100 Points

Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Drop Pod - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma + Drop Pod - 95 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Meltagun, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod - 90 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp + Rhino - 105 Points
Tactical Squad (x5); Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp + Rhino - 105 Points

Command Squad; Apothecary, x4 Storm Shields & Meltaguns + Drop Pod - 185 Points

Assault Squad (x5); x2 Flamers + Drop Pod - 80 Points
Assault Squad (x5); x2 Flamers + Drop Pod - 80 Points

Devastators (x5); x2 Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps + Rhino - 140 Points
Devastators (x5) + Razorback - 70 Points

- Strike Force Command
(W) Marneus Calgar - 275 Points

- 10th Company Task Force
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points
Scouts (x5) - 55 Points

Total: 1850 Points

Alternatively, the classic Superfriends if the person in question can't get a $1000 Gladius together.

I have, however, seen Abbadon used in game

I've seen Abaddon used in games. In the exact one configuration that I keep mentioning; Dreadclaw or nothing.

Also, Abbadon isn't a LoW (yet, bookies aren't even taking bets that it won't happen, but GW chaos is fickle...). I really don't see how you think Abbadon is better than Calgar anyway, Calgar craps all over Abbadon rules-wise.

Not from what I'm looking at. As far as I can see, they're roughly the same.

Compare skull of kerngar [...] because MoN on a bike is better for cheaper.

Fair enough. Still, you shouldn't be comparing Abaddon to a Chapter Master on a Bike, because they're not the same.

The question was "Is [Abaddon] overcosted?" No. No he's not. His wargear adds up to what it should add up to, and his fixed Warlord Trait with additional Eternal Warrior and WS7 and his other stuff appear to make up the difference. I don't think Abaddon is overcosted. Neither is Ahriman.

Is Abaddon good or playable? No. Abaddon - and Ahriman - are priced at about exactly what they should be priced at. Abaddon and Ahriman give you exactly what you pay for, more or less. The problem is that the standard metagame is 1500-1850. Due to the way the game is played (and the rest of the Codex), nobody has room in their list for single, ~250 Point models that move slow (especially without Drop Pods). Abaddon and Ahriman cost exactly what they should cost, but does that mean you should pay that cost? No. Split the difference and roll with Huron. Pick up two Sorcerers for Ahriman's cost.

If I had 2500-3000 Points to play with, pretty sure I'd be taking Abaddon every time. It's not that Abaddon is overcosted, it's just that Abaddon costs too much to be affordable in 1850.

It's more a fact that the contents of your legions spartan isn't quite such a large portion of your list

Hey, I just explained this. Rad. Same point for two things. Kind of.
In lower point games (such as 1850), you can't afford Spartans. That means not taking Spartans. 30K, 1850 lists, just have to be more economical with their points. Like, that's the meta. Deal with it. In Kill Team, the single-best unit in the format, are Space Marine Scouts (followed by their direct counter, Necron Tomb Blades). Scouts are 11 ppm, come with Infiltrate and Scout. Baller. You can run successively more and more Scouts all the way up to 1250 Points, at which point they get outclassed by Tactical Squads...Because Demi-Companies and the Gladius. Not that Scouts somehow got worse when you went up in points. But, that if you can afford better options, you should take them.

"Scouts are the best unit in the book!" ...Yeah. Of course they are. Up until you start getting enough points to bring a Demi-Company and not care about Devastator or Assault Squad taxes. I hate campaign/escalation events "All the models from the previous month/s must also be present in future month/s." Units that work in 500 Points (e.g; Swarmlord so broke), don't necessarily work at 1500 Points (e.g; I shoot Swarmlord, he dies Turn 1). So...Yeah.

For 30K, you hit that cutoff point, but at the low end. At 1850 Points, which units are affordable? You start crossing out units left and right. Until you're left with certain units, but not other units. Just like you've crossed Abaddon out of your Codex for costing too much. You need more, cheaper, economical options. Unfortunately, 30K is a bit...Spare...With cheap, economical options, tending for - you guessed it - 'too-expensive-but-actually-worth-every-point' options.

It's not that in 40K, 1850 Points, 30K armies get rolled. They don't. I promise you, they don't. It's just that the same list that you used in 30K, isn't viable in 40K, and not just because you lose 150 Points (~1-2 units is not that big of a deal. It's 150 Points. Come on).

Certain units in 30K, work in 30K, those same units wont necessarily work in 40K. Given how expensive a 30K/Heresy can be, most people aren't actually okay with buying extra units/models for 40K, so they use the same stuff, and get rolled.

[Drasius]

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Abbadon and Ahriman aren't overcosted, it's just that nobody ever uses them because they cost too much? No, I don't think that's how it works.

2.5k+ games have virtually no relevance when talking 40k unless you specifically say you're talking about games in that points region because the vast, vast majority of games are between 1000 and 2000 points. If a unit is too high in points cost for a normal game, then it's overcosted and in a meta where superheavies and GMC's are par for the course, being good in a 3k game doesn't cut it. If Abbadon could go in a 35 point drop pod that came down first turn with a bunch of his friends, sure, he'd find his way into a few lists, but now? No. As such, he doesn't pull his weight because for his points, he has an insufficient impact on the game. He's not worth his points because he has no way of reliably getting into combat. This comes back to my previous comment in my wall of text - You can't assess accurate and relevant points costs for CSM HQ's because the rest of the dex needs to be fixed first. If it remains the way it is, combat monsters who move 6" a turn and cost more than a land raider will remain on the shelf, if they get reserve manipulation and/or scatter mitigation, then suddenly there is a niche for them.

Also; the guy up here doesn't use a dreadclaw (since FW is ... Looked down upon would be a better phrase than "banned"), he actually just deep strikes Abbadon in with terminators and tries not to mishap.

The If-it's-not-the-best-then-it's-the-worst doesn't even come into it, Calgar just doesn't fit in with a gladius. You're already pressed for points and if you really want a beatstick, you're already forced to take a captain who can be turned into smashfaces younger brother and now your command squad can go on bikes and be less terrible. I stand by my comment that there is no place for Calgar in a gladius because what he brings isn't needed and can be done for less cost on models you already have to take.

[Cheesegear]

The If-it's-not-the-best-then-it's-the-worst doesn't even come into it, Calgar just doesn't fit in with a gladius.

I literally just showed you that he does.

You're already pressed for points and if you really want a beatstick, you're already forced to take a captain

Which is Sciarus, for 2+ Reserve rolls, because of how many Drop Pods you have.
If you are playing not-White Scars, you are playing Drop Pods. Sicarius enables Drop Pods. He is the best Captain that Ultramarines have.

and now your command squad can go on bikes and be less terrible.

If the Captain isn't Kor'sarro, the Bike Command doesn't have Scout, and is a waste of time.

Chapters that don't have Kor'sarro, use the Gladius differently. End.

[Drasius]

I literally just showed you that he does.

Which is Sciarus, for 2+ Reserve rolls, because of how many Drop Pods you have.
If you are playing not-White Scars, you are playing Drop Pods. Sicarius enables Drop Pods. He is the best Captain that Ultramarines have.

If the Captain isn't Kor'sarro, the Bike Command doesn't have Scout, and is a waste of time.

Chapters that don't have Kor'sarro, use the Gladius differently. End.

I didn't mean he doesn't fit due to points, I meant he doesn't fit with the army. I take one look at the list you wrote and is just seems like you've wasted a bunch of points (either that or I don't get the subtleties of the list, which is entirely possible).

All your important stuff is down first turn, leaving useless tacs in pods for turn 4 would be bettwe since then they only have to survive for 1-2 turns when they come down on an objective.

What's a waste is burning a bunch of points on a melee models that move 6" a turn just so they can protect Calgar and Sicarius. Much better to have the mobility of a bike squad sine you can actually get to places, especially if you're playing maelstrom and your enemy is popping pods on objectives.

Yes, of course they do, but just because you don't have Khan doesn't mean you're not taking a bunch of razors because 20 points for lasplas or TLAC on an AV11 box is an incredible deal. Pods are an option, but so are razors, even for non-WS.

Meh, I doubt either of us is going to change the others mind, so I'm willing to agree to disagree if you are?

[Cheesegear]

Meh, I doubt either of us is going to change the others mind, so I'm willing to agree to disagree if you are?

I know where you're coming from.
Can you jam Calgar into an army list? Yes, you can. I've just done it per the Gladius, and I have a guy in my meta who plays Superfriends. I've seen Calgar go to town. I've seen lists built around him, specifically, and I just made a list where his impact wont make you lose the game. 'Less good' doesn't mean 'bad'. A core Gladius is going to do work regardless of one or two individual parts. The most important part of the list is probably Sicarius, whose job it is to get your Drop Pods in to maximise Tactical Doctrine across the most units (that's the intricacy, by the way; More units on the board means more effective Doctrines).

Could the list be better without Calgar? Probably. But, the point is, with a Drop Pod, and four bodies around him with 3++/FNP, he'll drop down Turn 1, his friends will die, then in Turn 2 he'll be in combat. He does what he says on the tin. If you want Calgar, standard spiel; I bought the model and I want to use it. Can't Calgar be put into a list where he is effective, or, at worst, where his inclusion in the list wont damage the list too hard. Yes. He can. Are there better things in the book than Calgar? Of course there are. But is Calgar bad? Due to Drop Pods and support elements, no. Calgar can be in the enemy's DZ on Turn 1. Go, go, go.

Now, I've decided that Abaddon is perfectly costed. I actually do play larger games. I play Apocalypse. It's my favourite. I enjoy Apocalypse more than I enjoy playing 1850. I actually get to use my lofty, expensive and otherwise unusable toys. Just like my opponent gets to use Abaddon. In a way, expensive models almost feel like "You must play 1500 or more to include." rules. Abaddon's expensiveness actually lends to the fact that he shouldn't be leading 1850 games. If you want to talk about relevance, then in 1850, he's not. If you only play <1850, you'll never, ever, ever use Abaddon, ever. But, some people (i.e; Not you) happen to play 2000, 2500+, Abaddon is relevant to them, because the points cost is higher.

In my 30K for 40K, the limit is 1850. A Spartan Tank is not relevant to me. "But Spartans are the best!" Yeah. I know. In 2500, 3000+, not in 1500-1850. I know Spartans are good, I can read. But I also see their points cost and realise that I wont ever have one. See how this works? The other option, is for GW to remove Abaddon from the Codex, 'because he's not relevant in 1850'. That seems dumb.

But, we're both in agreement; Abaddon is too expensive for 1850.
Given that IMO, he's perfectly costed (similar to Calgar except actually better); Start carving out his rules. To make him cost less points, you need to take away some of his wargear or special rules. How much wargear do you carve out of Abaddon, how many points does each 'thing' cost? Furthermore, how many of those things can you drop, before he stops feeling like Abaddon? You can't really drop anything from Abaddon to make him cost less. He is what he is, and what he is, is 265 Points.

How many things can you drop from Ahriman? Well, he doesn't need Inferno Bolts, -10 Points. He's still 220, and I can't think of anything to else drop.