New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 121 to 150 of 152
  1. - Top - End - #121
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Hal0Badger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Turkey/Izmir
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Here's the thing - people don't say that wizards are unbalanced for challenges, they claim it's for an unbalanced party mechanic. The fighter contributes little, and the cleric/druid/wizard does everything.
    Though the given example takes out a CR 20+ encounter all by himself, and makes a CR 22+ encounter in favor of himself, again, all by himself. How is this an example of party mechanics?

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    Just to be sure, you can build a wizard, without consulting gate/binding/shapechange, which can take a CR 20 monster almost all by himself, including his pre summoned minions (which can be a cr 16 horned devil). Even if there are 2 of them (including extra minions), best they can do is to retreat to track you down later, if it is possible to bypass your mind blank in a manner.

    And nothing is wrong with a wizard in terms of balance, considering the current CR system with the provided monsters, if you take out binding/gate/shapechange.
    I can build a level 6 character than can kill the Tarrasque. Some monsters have weaknesses, some of them are huge (the Tarrasque) some of them are small "If you have enough HD, energy immunity, Greater Invisibility, and a very large number of save or dies or a very high DC, you can kill a Pit Fiend that refuses to run away."

    Although, looking at it again, you actually have to be evil to be able to even draw against a Pit Fiend. Because otherwise they just permalock you until your spell durations run out and then kill you.

    Now, the Shades trick that allows you to kill it in one round instead of like, 5-6 any one of which he could just leave, is broken. Shades emulating Trap the Soul is broken, Archmage SLA trap the soul is also broken.

    Anything that bypasses Trap the Soul's material component cost is going to be broken.

    But absent broken Shades/Trap the Soul interaction, Broken Gate, Broken Planar Binding, Broken Dominate Person, Broken Shapechange, Broken Incantatrix, Broken Arcane Thesis, yes, skipping out on specifically those things, you actually can't beat a Pit Fiend, and unless you are evil, you die, and if you are evil, then you still have a best case scenario of a Draw.

    Of course, all of this is based on you trying to use sleight of hand, A 17th level Wizard is a 20th level Wizard, they are the same character, because they cast the same spells, and that's all the character is, a vehicle for spells. So yes, a 20th level Wizard with sufficient optimization can be an unoptimized straight out of the MM Pit Fiend with no money spent.

    Of course, if he as a custom treasure that includes a True Seeing item, then you just die. But you know, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    Though the given example takes out a CR 20+ encounter all by himself, and makes a CR 22+ encounter in favor of himself, again, all by himself. How is this an example of party mechanics?
    Actually, he draws against a CR 20 monster without treasure (and probably with treasure) and he draw against an EL 22 encounter, which is not the same thing as a CR 22 encounter. Adding more monsters with the same flaw isn't very impressive, a level 17 Cleric can also easily beat 13 12 headed PyroHydra and 13 12 headed CryoHydras, an EL 22 encounter, because minion clearing spells like Holy Word exist, and immunity spells like Energy Immunity exist. And flight Exists.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2016-02-02 at 07:40 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    Though the given example takes out a CR 20+ encounter all by himself, and makes a CR 22+ encounter in favor of himself, again, all by himself. How is this an example of party mechanics?
    It's not, that's the point. The Wizard isn't, say, teleporting in an archer whose BAB and feats plus the bard's buffs overcome the Pit Fiend's AC and deliver the Holy Arrow of Asswhooping. The wizard is going in solo.

    The Wizard is not imbalanced against the CR system. The Wizard is unbalanced against the Core noncasters. Largely because the game was designed for low-level to mid-level play, with the higher level spells implicitly intended to be tools the BBEG wields against the mid-level heroes.

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Although, looking at it again, you actually have to be evil to be able to even draw against a Pit Fiend. Because otherwise they just permalock you until your spell durations run out and then kill you.
    I think you're thinking of the Balor. The Pit Fiend's blasphemy is only CL 18, so it doesn't lock down a 20th level character.

    Unless you're talking about a 17th level Wizard, in which case yes you do need to be evil.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I think you're thinking of the Balor. The Pit Fiend's blasphemy is only CL 18, so it doesn't lock down a 20th level character.

    Unless you're talking about a 17th level Wizard, in which case yes you do need to be evil.
    Yeah, I was referring to the level 17 Wizard. Though like I said, a level 17 Wizard is functionally a 20the level character, because he casts the same spells.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Hal0Badger's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Turkey/Izmir
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    It's not, that's the point. The Wizard isn't, say, teleporting in an archer whose BAB and feats plus the bard's buffs overcome the Pit Fiend's AC and deliver the Holy Arrow of Asswhooping. The wizard is going in solo.

    The Wizard is not imbalanced against the CR system. The Wizard is unbalanced against the Core noncasters. Largely because the game was designed for low-level to mid-level play, with the higher level spells implicitly intended to be tools the BBEG wields against the mid-level heroes.
    It is both actually. CR system assumes you play as 4 player, with distinguished roles. If a class can solo encounters designed for 4 people, it is not balanced against both CR system and to other classes as well. If a party containing 4 of the same class, not just overcomes the level appropriate challenge, but obliterates it, there is definitely a design flaw here. I completely agree with you on the bold part of the quote though.

    Let me elaborate why I think wizard is a badly designed class, from example of Beheld:

    The wizard in given example has just stated some items to boost his CL and casted spells. No class features(from PRC that advances wizard casting), feats, or any other essential items. Yet still can triumph over a CR 20 pitfiend, with a 40% chance outright killing him on the spot. CR system, as noted by Beheld, assumes he has a chance of losing of 50%, which as it seems, hardly comes into play. While, as a team game, you would need your teammates to cover your weaknesses, a wizard could simply say "Just tag along, I got this by myself".

    The spells casted on the wizard are from ranging schools, from necromancy to illusion, probably as well as abjuration. Wail of the banshee is a 9th level spell, while superior invisibility is 8th level. Both are from different schools, with widely different themes and powers, and both are high level. This kind of versatility without giving up any power, with the combination of powerful spells granted by the wizard spell list, what makes wizard class unbalanced and poorly designed, therefore a bad point for balancing the classes.

    As a side note; Eventhough I admit tier system is not a good point of view to discuss balance, I do not look any differently to other T1 classes (I hate druid). However, if you block archivist spell selection by banning divine alternatives of arcane classes, wizard spell list is the strongest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Yeah, I was referring to the level 17 Wizard. Though like I said, a level 17 Wizard is functionally a 20the level character, because he casts the same spells.
    This is me being lazy actually. I just wondered if there is a way to overcome Blasphemy with a 17 level full caster, maybe a spell, maybe an item, maybe a way to count your HD higher for spells like this. +3 caster levels, as well as HD increase and 6 more spells known definitely increases the power of wizard.

  7. - Top - End - #127
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    I would argue for placing the balance point at tier 1 for the sheer benefit of strategic and tactical freedom the tier provides. At any level the players are making more choices, and thus more interesting decisions than any other balance point. Keep in mind playing an optimized wizard even under constraints only seems easy when you have fairly extensive knowledge of the options. The class itself has some of the most complex choices to make. As an added bonus learning spells by scribing means you regret choices that end up being poor less because it's cheaper to find new spells to scribe than get knowstones or equivalent. This is much more friendly a mechanic than a set limit on spells known per level for new players in other words. They can make ''wrong'' choices without being punished as hard. Naturally you'd have to adjust the CR system to the rise in player power, but it's hardly well put together now, and you can do better with a more solid grasp on consistent player power potential.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
    Thread wins: 2

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    I would argue for placing the balance point at tier 1 for the sheer benefit of strategic and tactical freedom the tier provides. At any level the players are making more choices, and thus more interesting decisions than any other balance point. Keep in mind playing an optimized wizard even under constraints only seems easy when you have fairly extensive knowledge of the options. The class itself has some of the most complex choices to make. As an added bonus learning spells by scribing means you regret choices that end up being poor less because it's cheaper to find new spells to scribe than get knowstones or equivalent. This is much more friendly a mechanic than a set limit on spells known per level for new players in other words. They can make ''wrong'' choices without being punished as hard. Naturally you'd have to adjust the CR system to the rise in player power, but it's hardly well put together now, and you can do better with a more solid grasp on consistent player power potential.
    Under that regime, players are pretty much limited to clerics, wizards and druids, maybe Sublime Chord Bards with another ACF to let them have prepared casting from a full list.

    Am I wrong? That's a plausible game, but is it the game you intend? (OK, Beheld might still play a Rogue.)

    And with that game, do you need anybody else at the table besides a GM?

    MAybe as the player base ages and dwindles, that's a feature not a bug, transitioning from a group game to a partner game?

  9. - Top - End - #129
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Under that regime, players are pretty much limited to clerics, wizards and druids, maybe Sublime Chord Bards with another ACF to let them have prepared casting from a full list.

    Am I wrong? That's a plausible game, but is it the game you intend? (OK, Beheld might still play a Rogue.)
    Archivists and StP Erudites are often grouped at T1, also. Alternately, you could play with Frank & K's Tomes, which reads as the balance point some in the thread are coming from anyway.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  10. - Top - End - #130
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Archivists and StP Erudites are often grouped at T1, also. Alternately, you could play with Frank & K's Tomes, which reads as the balance point some in the thread are coming from anyway.
    True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?

    Or is the game optimization chess with the DM? (Which is a perfectly fine game and not Badwrongfun if that's what you like.)

    I'm just wondering what gameplay is like with high system-mastery players running Tier 1 characters in upper-level games.

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    It is both actually. CR system assumes you play as 4 player, with distinguished roles.
    This is incorrect on an explicit level and an implicit level. First, the game is not balanced on 4 players with different roles, the rules explain how ELs apply to parties of 1 and parties of 10. 4 Characters of the same "role" are balanced the same way as 4 parties of different "roles" because no part of the rules state that balance is predicated on "roles" at all.

    Implicitly, you are wrong because you are trying to imply that those 4 roles have to be covered by different classes, but they really don't, any possible role in the game can be covered by the Cleric, and they clearly intended that, because you don't give a class Divine Power and Find Traps and Banishment if you don't want him to be able to do all those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    The wizard in given example has just stated some items to boost his CL and casted spells. No class features(from PRC that advances wizard casting), feats, or any other essential items. Yet still can triumph over a CR 20 pitfiend, with a 40% chance outright killing him on the spot. CR system, as noted by Beheld, assumes he has a chance of losing of 50%, which as it seems, hardly comes into play. While, as a team game, you would need your teammates to cover your weaknesses, a wizard could simply say "Just tag along, I got this by myself".
    1) Optimization matters, I can do the same thing with a Rogue and Fighter. I also explained how a Pit Fiend can kill the Wizard by having custom item choices that cover for his huge glaring weakness. Hell if he has constant Mindblank from an item, then the Wizard may never find him and he can just assail locations with summons and undead from safety.
    2) Level 20 always has and always will be a bad example. The game becomes a fundamentally different game that breaks down at level 15. High level characters are not playing the same game at all, and they basically operate entirely based on the concept of dictating the terms of engagement. Level 20 is also never played. If you want to complain about how Wizards are broken, because they are too strong for the CR system, use an example that involves a Wizard from level 1-14. If you can't, then the argument you make based on a CR 20 is flawed.

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sovereign State of Denial

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?

    Or is the game optimization chess with the DM? (Which is a perfectly fine game and not Badwrongfun if that's what you like.)

    I'm just wondering what gameplay is like with high system-mastery players running Tier 1 characters in upper-level games.
    Usually I focus on making enemies fit to the players (I helped pretty much all my players save three make T1 characters, and all but one have run T1 characters) but also focus on RP. Most of the time it's just a fun thought experiment and combat is secondary to halfway decent RP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

  13. - Top - End - #133
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?
    If you are under level 15, yeah you need other players. Level 15+ is a bad example, because it is fundamentally not the same kind of game anymore.

    If a level 1-14 Wizard needs the party to deal with challenges of CR = his level without dying, I'm fine with that, because I've only played one game in the last 3 years at higher level than that anyway.

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    Let me elaborate why I think wizard is a badly designed class, ...
    Your point is a good one, but there's one point I think needs to be slightly modified.

    The original wizard class had fewer hit points in a game in which area effects could (and did) kill characters. They didn't get an army of followers like Fighting Men (yes, that was the class name) in a game that was intended to lead to large scale battles. And spells only went up to level 6. And against anything but spells, their saving throws were not as good.

    Wizards had higher power (though not horribly), paid for by higher risk.

    Over time, however, the power level kept trending up, and the risk level kept trending down.

    Wizard was a moderately well designed class. It has been badly updated.

  15. - Top - End - #135
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sovereign State of Denial

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Your point is a good one, but there's one point I think needs to be slightly modified.

    The original wizard class had fewer hit points in a game in which area effects could (and did) kill characters. They didn't get an army of followers like Fighting Men (yes, that was the class name) in a game that was intended to lead to large scale battles. And spells only went up to level 6. And against anything but spells, their saving throws were not as good.

    Wizards had higher power (though not horribly), paid for by higher risk.

    Over time, however, the power level kept trending up, and the risk level kept trending down.

    Wizard was a moderately well designed class. It has been badly updated.
    Even in earlier editions, it was much more powerful than other classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

  16. - Top - End - #136
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Even in earlier editions, it was much more powerful than other classes.
    Only at high levels, where you had enough HP as a cushion against whatever. A 2E wizard at 5th level had 5d4 hit points, with a max +2/level for Con, for 30 hp max. Pretty squishy. Average Wizard 5 with 15 Con (+1/level, IIRC) 4 (max) + 4d4 + 5 = 19 hp. At level 10, 9d4 + 9 + 3 = max of 48 hp.

    High level wizards had enough HP to get by, and enough power to more or less rule the world. But the idea was that most wizards would not survive to those levels. The idea was that the wizard was balanced over a campaign--he spent the first few levels hiding behind the fighter and casting one or two spells per day, before becoming a BBEG in his own right at double-digit levels.

    And Amazon magic mart was not a thing. (It existed depending on your DM, but was basically limited to the items in the DMG--there weren't generic rules for a permanent item of SL X at CL Y for Z,000 gp.) The default assumption that any magic item is available boosts everyone, but as usual, the casters have the best ways to take advantage.

  17. - Top - End - #137
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    I'm pretty sure that encounter enders like sleep and color spray already existed in 2E. Also defenses that blocked access to the wizard's measly HP like mirror image did also exist then.

  18. - Top - End - #138
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andezzar View Post
    I'm pretty sure that encounter enders like sleep and color spray already existed in 2E. Also defenses that blocked access to the wizard's measly HP like mirror image did also exist then.
    Mirror image is and was an excellent 2nd level spell. But, so many 1st level wizards ran
    "I cast sleep on the 4 Goblins!"
    "3 of them save"
    "Crud. I'm out of spells."

  19. - Top - End - #139
    Titan in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London, EU
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andezzar View Post
    I'm pretty sure that encounter enders like sleep and color spray already existed in 2E. Also defenses that blocked access to the wizard's measly HP like mirror image did also exist then.
    Yes, but a high level Fighter would take down a Wizard should they close to combat.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
    Warped Druid Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  20. - Top - End - #140
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sovereign State of Denial

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Mirror image is and was an excellent 2nd level spell. But, so many 1st level wizards ran
    "I cast sleep on the 4 Goblins!"
    "3 of them save"
    "Crud. I'm out of spells."
    Fairly certain that's statistically unlikely, but ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

  21. - Top - End - #141
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Yes, but a high level Fighter would take down a Wizard should they close to combat.
    That's not really balance though.

    First, the ability of Fighters to kill Wizards is just one data point in terms of Fighter/Wizard balance. Because Fighters don't fight Wizards, they fight monsters. And yes, some of those monsters are Wizards. But the vast majority aren't.

    Second, "should they close to combat" is glossing over huge swaths of what high level Wizards could achieve even then in terms of summons and defensive preparations.

    Third, as levels go up combat is an increasingly small part of what you actually do. A 1st level party might be called upon to go to the town graveyard and kill some zombies, a task which is wholly dependent on personal combat ability. A 10th level party might be called upon to conquer and administer an enemy nation, a task for which simply "being good at fighting" is woefully inadequate.

    That's a good jumping off point to a much deeper issue, actually. As long as the Fighter is defined by "fighting" he is going to be ineffective in the face of higher level challenges which can be bypassed, negotiated with, bribed, investigated, tricked, built, or any verb other than "fought".

  22. - Top - End - #142
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2012

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Yes, but a high level Fighter would take down a Wizard should they close to combat.
    If that is so, didn't the wizard already have the tools to prevent the fighter from getting close?

  23. - Top - End - #143
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Even in earlier editions, it was much more powerful than other classes.
    Yes, but that was (somewhat) balanced by higher risks, and those risks have been reduced or eliminated.

  24. - Top - End - #144
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sovereign State of Denial

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Yes, but that was (somewhat) balanced by higher risks, and those risks have been reduced or eliminated.
    Not really, at least in my experience. Everyone had basically the same risk of dying. That doesn't balance anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

  25. - Top - End - #145
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Not really, at least in my experience. Everyone had basically the same risk of dying. That doesn't balance anything.
    Yes, well, in my experience, a 17-hit point fireball kills a 14-hit-point magic-user but not a 25-hit-point fighting man.

  26. - Top - End - #146
    Titan in the Playground
     
    nedz's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    London, EU
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    First, the ability of Fighters to kill Wizards is just one data point in terms of Fighter/Wizard balance. Because Fighters don't fight Wizards, they fight monsters. And yes, some of those monsters are Wizards. But the vast majority aren't.
    NPCs were always more of a threat than monsters mainly because of a wider set of options. I guess it depends upon the game, but in the AD&D games I ran this sort of combat was common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Second, "should they close to combat" is glossing over huge swaths of what high level Wizards could achieve even then in terms of summons and defensive preparations.
    True, but less so than in 3.5. There were no immediate actions, or Quicken, and I would expect a Fighter to shrug off most spells thrown at them. During the combat the Fighter would doggedly aim to close, whilst the casters would keep each other occupied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Third, as levels go up combat is an increasingly small part of what you actually do. A 1st level party might be called upon to go to the town graveyard and kill some zombies, a task which is wholly dependent on personal combat ability. A 10th level party might be called upon to conquer and administer an enemy nation, a task for which simply "being good at fighting" is woefully inadequate.

    That's a good jumping off point to a much deeper issue, actually. As long as the Fighter is defined by "fighting" he is going to be ineffective in the face of higher level challenges which can be bypassed, negotiated with, bribed, investigated, tricked, built, or any verb other than "fought".
    There wasn't a skill system so Fighters were not stopped from pursuing other options - at least not quite so much. One of the problems with Fighter in 3.5 is the poor selection of class skills to the extent that the 2 skill points per level isn't even a restriction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    That's not really balance though.
    Well I always regarded playing a Fighter as dull, whereas in 3.5 they just become irrelevant.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


    Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
    Warped Druid Handbook

    Avatar by Caravaggio

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?

    Or is the game optimization chess with the DM? (Which is a perfectly fine game and not Badwrongfun if that's what you like.)

    I'm just wondering what gameplay is like with high system-mastery players running Tier 1 characters in upper-level games.
    You bet your hide you need the other players. While all tier 1s will eventually learn literally everything and have a wide array of answers to any given problem, different classes get different answers faster/better/more cheaply and that MATTERS for a long time even at really high levels of optimization. Similarly you're likely to face more enemies who cast or have casting equivalent abilities and you need more caster bodies just to keep the resources on both sides somewhat even for most of the game.

    At high level, while everyone could easily answer any problem from even a level or two earlier alone, competently played caster enemies on a somewhat even level keel are scary enough for a team to be desired.

    Now lets assume you've reached a point where all the classes could in theory solve any problem alone. Thing is four heads think of ways of making their solutions HILARIOUS much more efficiently than just one.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
    Thread wins: 2

  28. - Top - End - #148
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rocky Mountains, Colorado

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Ettins and titans and trolls, oh my.

    Devout skillmonkey checking in.
    This has been a good thread. Among my peers I'm considered a pretty good optimizer of rofyes n clerics. But around this bunch i sometimes haven't much to add. I play clerics because "we need a healer" and rogues because i love it. My favorite thing is to void or win major encounters with paying attentio, and creative use of mundane abilities. I certainly can't beat everything that way, but I'm pretty good at it. Our party once beat a dragon because i grappled it, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
    Though the given example takes out a CR 20+ encounter all by himself, and makes a CR 22+ encounter in favor of himself, again, all by himself. How is this an example of party mechanics?
    This is really one of the best line s in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?

    Or is the game optimization chess with the DM? (Which is a perfectly fine game and not Badwrongfun if that's what you like.)

    I'm just wondering what gameplay is like with high system-mastery players running Tier 1 characters in upper-level games.
    I don't enjoy games past mid op 15th level, and like 3 to12 best. I also like story better than combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    Mirror image is and was an excellent 2nd level spell. But, so many 1st level wizards ran
    "I cast sleep on the 4 Goblins!"
    "3 of them save"
    "Crud. I'm out of spells."
    I swear this has happen ed TOO many times, lol.

    I like Grod's style, and his fix(es). But the important thing to remember the market. People WANT to have simple options
    Like fighters.

  29. - Top - End - #149
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    True. But the point is, with a high-level Tier 1 in the party, do you need any other players?
    A. You can't develop a high-level Tier 1 without other players. Three kobolds killed her at level 1, or some such.

    B. A good DM keeps finding ways to involve all the characters. Eventually they should find themselves stuck in an anti-magic field, and need the fighter to break down the door or the Rogue to pick the lock.

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Quick fix for wizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    A. You can't develop a high-level Tier 1 without other players. Three kobolds killed her at level 1, or some such.

    B. A good DM keeps finding ways to involve all the characters. Eventually they should find themselves stuck in an anti-magic field, and need the fighter to break down the door or the Rogue to pick the lock.
    He was asking about games where tier one is the balance point. In other words the world is some horrible combination of dark souls, dwarf fortress, and the darkest dungeon.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
    Thread wins: 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •