Alternate Casting Systems

[ekarney]

Has anybody heard of any alternative casting systems? Possibly more rules light/looser ones that speed up combat a bit?

This is more of a curiosity thing, though I know my players would be more interested in the playing casters if they were less effort to maintain.

[MisterKaws]

Has anybody heard of any alternative casting systems? Possibly more rules light/looser ones that speed up combat a bit?

This is more of a curiosity thing, though I know my players would be more interested in the playing casters if they were less effort to maintain.

• Spheres of Power
• Play spontaneous casters
• Psionics
• Warlocks
• Truenaming(it's actually pretty balanced if you look closer)

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Invocation users are probably the simplest published mages. There have been some good homebrew stuff... I remember seeing a big project to create magic- users who followed ToB rules, which looked like a nice alternative?

• Truenaming(it's actually pretty balanced if you look closer)

...Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

(But seriously, even if you give them utterances at-will and houserule all the flat-out dysfunctional bits they're not very strong. Even compared to noncasters)

[Fizban]

Depends on what you mean by casting, and what's keeping your players from playing them. I'd usually expect the best bet are the fixed list spontaneous casters: Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, followed by 'brewing some more for other specializations. But if the problem is that you can't even get your players to read the spells then you'll need to go even further, probably to Warlock/Dragonfire Adept level territory where each "caster" really only has a few tricks, and maybe supplement it further by making a lot of necessary game functions like Remove Disease/Remove Curse into Incantations, which is a fancy way of saying anyone can do them with skill checks but they're a pain in the but to use. Anything less than Warlock, such as Binder or Incarnum, can't be called a caster with a straight face and will never fill the role.

If they're willing to read spells but it's the spell slot system and number of books getting in the way, Psionics is the way to go with it's unified power point pools, augmentable/multifunction powers that mean you don't need to learn the same trick several times as you level up, and only having 1-2 main books (there are powers scattered about but not nearly as many, XPH is enough on it's own). It's still missing a few clerical functions that the game expects you to have, but you can again do those with Incantations or make them into powers or whatever.

The thing to remember is that complexity is power. Any alternate magic-ish system that's less complex is inherently less powerful, and there are many monsters with abilities that absolutely assume the party has a cleric or wizard (depending on the monster) who can cast or get access to specific spells. Not just stuff like "this monster is hard to kill with weapons, use spells" or "this monster has friends, use AoEs," but stuff like "if you don't cast spell Q by tomorrow morning you die, period." A party that is lacking a cleric or wizard requires the DM to also pay attention to what monsters they're using and make sure not to hit the party with something which is literally impossible for them to deal with. A Warlock isn't really a caster, they're an Archer that deals annoying no-miss damage and has a few extra tricks. A Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro is not a sorcerer or wizard: they're an artillery unit, mind controller, or skeleton and curse monkey (a sorcerer has few spells known, but still gets to pick whatever they want after all).

I haven't read Sphere's of Power, but from what I understand it's sort of like Warlocks with a mana system that can increase their normally reduced at-will effects to full power on a limited basis. Bringing in Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts with a similar boost pool and a pile of homebrew invocations for options should have a similar effect. Vael has some good stuff here, and the guidelines for Incantations can be found here- or you can just feed them a little extra gold and buy (or craft via Imbue Item) scrolls for any problems they can't handle naturally.

[Necroticplague]

Psionics is basically casting that's closer to casting that you've seen in most other systems.

[RegalKain]

I will also put a word in for Spheres of Power. It has a few extremely broken combos. But for the most part its a solid and simple system.

[MisterKaws]

The Invocation users are probably the simplest published mages. There have been some good homebrew stuff... I remember seeing a big project to create magic- users who followed ToB rules, which looked like a nice alternative?


...Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

(But seriously, even if you give them utterances at-will and houserule all the flat-out dysfunctional bits they're not very strong. Even compared to noncasters)

Considering all the skill boosters, the knowledge checks so high you might as well force your DM into just passing his notes to you, and the easiest way to ignore SR ever, they're pretty balanced, using targetted utterances at lower levels, and gradually switching to Perfected Map once the appropriate levels come.

And let's not forget the Potion Tablet abuse...

In short, as long as you don't compare it to a T1 caster or an upper T2, it's a nice class.

did I mention the DC 35(when you're rolling around 70s) gate at lvl 20?

[ekarney]

I'll definitely have a look at spheres of power,

I think what my players are most looking for is to just not have to worry about all the micromanagement. Like they'll play Paladins and others who only know a small amount of spells, but they feel that playing any sort of full caster is just too much effort.

[Obsessionist]

If it's spell slots that are messing your players up, Psionics might be an option; if it's the complexity of the spells themselves, or an unwillingness to do some out-of-game research & clarification, I don't think Psionics will help. Psionics entails a lot of small decisions (like augmentation) and bookkeeping, with more variable DCs and effects than most spells.

Consider Summon Monster vs. Astral Construct. With the former the player chooses and animal from a list, and either the DM or the player or both pulls up a stat sheet. With the latter the player 1) has to choose whether to augment the construct or not, which depends not on simple spell slot availability but on a more abstract PP system, 2) choose a menu ability (or abilities, again weigh the options is more complex), 3) modify the given stat block with the ability. Plus the psion is managing their Psionic Focus, which is one more thing to keep track of, particularly if maintaining it is giving passive bonuses.

I wouldn't dismiss Warlocks outright, if multiple players are interested in simplified spellcasting, a couple of Warlocks can cover a fair number of magical utilities. And of course you could reflavor the class as necessary.

[TheIronGolem]

Warlock's definitely the way to go if you want to optimize for simplicity first and foremost. You have Magic Lasers with semi-decent damage and variable rider effects, and you have a small number of SLA's you can use at will without having to track daily uses. It's about as easy as magic gets in 3.X/PF.

Spheres of Power is pretty sweet, and definitely more manageable than classic casting, but might still be off-putting to players who are prone to analysis-paralysis. If you're getting mixed reactions on SoP, take a look at some of the more focused classes like Elementalist and Armorist. Any players who just want to blow things up or otherwise use a relatively small amount of magic can be steered towards those, while players who want to more fully explore the magic system can try classes like Incanter and Hedgewitch.

Psionics are a good option if you like the versatility of all the spells Vancian offers but find spell-slot management to be tedious. Spending points is a fair bit easier, especially if you have a background in CRPG's where they're in frequent use. Obsessionist's caveats definitely apply, however.

[ekarney]

I might suggest Warlock next time the topic comes up, or even just paste some spells from another list on top of the Warlock's invocations for a bit of versatility and re-flavouring.

I'm not exactly sure what their issue is, so I'll check with them next time the topic comes up, I know personally, whilst I love playing casters I find preparing spells a la wizard and cleric each day pretty tiring, so I tend to only prepare a handful that I like casting and leave most of my slots open. For spontaneous casters I just get overwhelmed by choice because obtaining new spells is far more difficult and I feel trapped if I make a bad choice, but that's me not my players.

Alternatively, I might try and back-port my own casting system I've been working on for a d20 variant, and see if they're into it.

Edit: If I were to backport the system I'm using would I be able to post it here, or would I have to post it in homebrew? What if I posted the entire system/setting? Would that have to be posted in homebrew, or could I post it here?
Cause I mean, I'd prefer to post it in d20, but if I have to post it in homebrew I will.

[LTwerewolf]

Also a fan of spheres. Lot of customization without all the accounting.

[DrMartin]

i would also add my voice for spheres of power and psionics. Psionics can become somewhat heavy on the notekeeping when you get to higher levels though (maybe not as much as regular prepared casters, but certainly more so than warlocks and fixed list casters). Don't have any experience (yet) for spheres of power beyond 10th level so can't really comment on that, but at lower levels it works wonders.

[Fizban]

Analysis paralysis, sounds like you'd definitely like some fixed-list casters then. It's too bad WotC only printed three, all of them potentially controversial (minon-mancy, all the mind control, and "blasting is weak"). I'll put my expanded/fixed Warmage list down below, but I haven't gotten around to the low-impact Healer fix I've been meaning to do. There are other homebrews around, I've got three in my bookmarks here: the Time Mage, Alchemist, and Rapeller. The first two are quite old so their tables are broken, but you can still read them if you squint and the text with the class features and spell list are obviously fine. All are much stronger than the existing fixed list casters: I helped with the Time Mage's spell list (it's where I earned that ego sig) and it's got some strong powers in addition to it's casting, the Alchemist's Metamagic Draught is either free metamagic or loans people feats and either way is a bad idea, and the Rappeler is a summoner/buffer (which might involve more recordkeeping than desired). If using any of the fixed list brews I'd suggest boosting the Warmage's class features (at the very least unlock the metamagic feats), but the Dread Necro has plenty of features and the Beguiler has plenty of skills.

There's also this Planeswalker here, which still chooses spells known like a sorcerer but has a much smaller list to choose from and fewer spells known-effectively one spell known at each level is replaced by a sort of planar domain that can be changed every day, with the additional benefit that you when you get a new level of spells known you start with two instead of one (1+planar attunement).

Another possibility would be trying to just get them to try a Sorcerer and chill out on the spell choices. It doesn't help that the standard "switch one every two levels but not your highest" is ridiculously restrictive for learning: make it "switch whatever you damnwell feel like when you level up because this is a game and it's supposed to be fun, just don't go nuts please" or at least one at each level and no spell level restrictions. If you make it easier to change and/or buy access to spells known it should be a lot easier to pick whatever spells sound good or cool and fill in the rest. MiC items like the Raiment of the Stormwalker and Runestaves, or allowing Knowstones (Dragon Mag, same price as a Pearl of Power and unslotted) will let you drop spells into loot, which the players can play around with and either keep, sell, or learn and then sell. If they want to try a new spell they can buy an item, and if they don't like you can let them trade it in for something else and charge only a minor fee. The feat Alacritous Cogitation (spelling?) allows a wizard to basically cast one spontaneous spell per day, a Sorcerer feat allowing them to use a spellbook or scroll to cast one spell not on their list per day would be even cheaper than using stones and staves, and then you can give it away for free by putting it on the Sorcerer bonus feat list (and adding a bonus feat progression). There's a PrC in Bestiary of Krynn that allows you to just straight up change one or more spells known per day because you're that awesome, as well as one of the only non-broken metamagic reducers I've seen.

And finally, you could take the likely controversial option of just picking spells for them. Just be like "Hey, I'll put together a solid list to start, and then you can play around with spells in game and change it up if you want." Then you drop various cool spells on them and soon enough I'd think they'd start catching on.

As for your homebrew casting system, Homebrew would indeed be the place to put it.

Here's my Warmage stuff. If you don't feel like reading just skip to the Spell Compendium (+PHB) and slap it on in along with the original Warmage list. For more you can change Advanced Learning to one at every spell level (on the odd class levels), and change the bonus feats to any metamagic at 5/10/15/20.

Spoiler: Warmage notes, warning: messy

Show

contrary to what one might assume, the warmage list is not all the blasting spells, nor is it blasting spells only. there is a deliberate spread of energy types and occasional battlefield control spells, but the higher levels are woefully short. there's a clear theme of one of each energy type, a neutral type, a non-damage, and an objecty crusher at each level, but the top levels just don't have enough spells to fill that in PHB/CA (it could also be deliberate limits since you have plenty of lower level options, but screw that). so the goal here is to fill out the warmage list to match beguiler/dread necro, preferably using just one book (which is always spell compendium)

note on spell counts: the warmage list is also somewhat inflated due to multiple copies of the same spell in different energy types (the orb spells), these shall not be counted at full cost.

warmage count (-extra orb spells)
lv0: meh, just fill it up
1: 9
2: 11
3: 10
4: 7
5: 7
6: 8
7: 8
8: 7
9: 6

beguiler count
1: 14 (-2 low HD caps)
2: 19 (-1 mid HD cap)
3: 20 (-1 mid HD cap)
4: 11
5: 11
6: 8
7: 8
8: 7
9: 6
dispels, solid fog, and time stop generally better than warmage options

dread necro count
1: 10ish
2: 12
3: 8
4: 13 (but animate dead should be 3rd)
5: 15
6: 9
7: 7 (though FoD vs Destruction is pointless)
8: 4
9: 5
gets dispel at 4th but then greater dispel at 5th, spells way too clustered


so, warmage is a bit short and could boost 5-2 spells up until 6th or so. I think it'd be enough to just fill out the patterns and add a couple more iconic variants.
goal: energy cycle, neutral, BC, anti-obj, util, self-troll buff? (warmages are not for melee combat but they have self-trolling buffs that look nice, it amuses me)

Spoiler: Warmage expanded list

Show

spell compendium set (+PHB)
1: +corrosive grasp, ice dagger, wall of smoke, scatterspray, blades of fire (SpC dropped to 1st)
2: +scorch, snowball swarm, snake's swiftness? (flame blade)
3: +acid breath, icelance, chain missile, rust ray
4: +(dispel magic), defenestrating sphere? ("divine" power?)
5: +(waves of fatigue), vitriolic sphere, earth reaver
6: +acid storm, +(greater dispel magic)
7: +radiant assault
8: +bombardment, avasculate (and -incendiary cloud and polar ray because I hate them)
9: +black blade of disaster


CM/PHB2 (options i'd consider)
1: blade of blood (sub blades of fire), burning rage
2: blackrot (sub shatter?), grave mist (sub scorch+snowball?),
3:
4: channeled pyroburst?
5: channeled soundburst?
6: lingering flames?, storm of fire and ice (sub earth reaver)
7: plague
8: touch of the graveborn, chain dispel? (or 9th?)
9: prismatic deluge

spell compendium: ice dagger/knife/lance is like a series, grasp matches chill touch, scatterspray is "object hate", warmages should have the lv2 AoEs, acid breath fills energy cycle, chain missile sux but is a series, even dread necros get dispel so it's a gimmie, should have both fatigue+exhaustion waves, acid storm is like blast of fire for SR: no option at 6th, 7-8th levels suck so add radiant and bombardment, and implosion/wail/weird can't multi-hit a tough boss so black blade ('cause sphere is objectively better so we'll avoid it). snake's swiftness and defenestrating sphere would get the spell counts higher, but are quite strong and unique and possibly not appropriate. divine power is a perfect "self troll-buff," but it's also not normally an arcane spell so. . . ?

CM/PHB2: blade of blood actually good, burning rage has heavy drawback, blackrot's kinda cool but overlaps with shatter a bit, grave mist is worth cold+area+debuff so it's worth more, channeled pyro/sound perfect but again unique and maybe not for default list, lingering flames possibly too perfect. plague is the mass version of contagion so it should be on there, touch of the graveborn is strong and not a bad idea, chain dispell probably too strong (we're adding standard dispels out of neccesity, not because it's their speciality-though dispelling people is an extremely warmage thing to do) prismatic deluge fits with prismatic spray but starts glutting their 9th level list,

I reach the end here and realize I've said nothing for divine casters but, uh, well the whole point of them is generally that they have all the spells in the world to choose from every morning. You can do the same thing as sorcerer though: use Favored Soul or some other spontaneous divine caster, allow easier spell re-picks and lots of items with spell knowledge, and offer to pick their spells if they want.

[AmberVael]

Bringing in Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts with a similar boost pool and a pile of homebrew invocations for options should have a similar effect. Vael has some good stuff here.

Yeah, I like warlocks, and would definitely recommend them (especially to people who find standard casters to be too complex). Though, I would also note that warlocks are a little bit underpowered? You could afford to give them more invocations, especially at low levels. I've come to the conclusion that I'd want to build them a bit more like the ToB classes, somewhat front loaded so that you start off with interesting options, but don't get too many by the time you are high level. So, maybe buff warlocks a bit if you point your players in that direction - one invocation per level is commonly agreed to be acceptable.



But I'll also chime in for Spheres of Power, which is a pretty interesting system. There's lots of options for it, but when it comes down to builds your character ends up pretty focused, and its not too hard to figure out what you can and will do each turn.
Of course, I'm definitely not biased on the subject. Nope. Amber has no reason to suggest Spheres of Power at all.

Some of the spheres are more complex than others though - something like Illusion or Creation will involve lots more possibilities and thinking due to their ability to generate a wide variety of figments or items, while something like Destruction just boils down to what flavor of laser or bomb you want to fling at someone each turn.