How do I handle cutting down a tree...as a DM

[obryn]

Don't worry about the physics; worry about what will make an exciting scene.

I think fighting off bloodthirsty pirates while trying to hack apart a lighthouse sounds like a rollicking good time, myself! Make them split their resources between combat and non-combat activities. So, for these purposes, it would take ... say ... 5 rounds or so to knock it over.

[krugaan]

The right way to do this would be to set it on fire, or excavate beneath the foot of the pole. Move Earth or similar under the footing would make the tower tilt, and it's probably not designed to take the stress.

If you combine the two - excavate a pit beneath the pole, fill the pit with oil, ignite the oil - I think collapse is fairly probable.

I like this move earth idea, it is by far the simplest and lowest level idea. Of course, it would also depend on how far the supports are sunk into the earth, but maybe as little as two castings would be sufficient to tip the tower.

You could have a two man flimsy-tower-destroying team: a wizard with move earth and a druid shifted into badger form or something.

[DanyBallon]

I would ask my players what exactly they wanted to do, and how they plan to do it. Then together we would set what ability check would be best to use according to their plan, and give them advantage on the roll if they bring tools or have a creative solution, disadvantage if their plan is not well thought, this check would be oppose to a perception check from the group of pirates.

If they succeed, they manage to do it without being interruted by the pirates, otherwise they may endup surprised by the pirate sneaking on them while they try to bringing it down.

[Vogonjeltz]

Don't worry about the physics; worry about what will make an exciting scene.

I think fighting off bloodthirsty pirates while trying to hack apart a lighthouse sounds like a rollicking good time, myself! Make them split their resources between combat and non-combat activities. So, for these purposes, it would take ... say ... 5 rounds or so to knock it over.

I dare say 30 seconds is an implausibly short amount of time to chop through even one leg of a tower. I mean...cutting through a 'tree' could take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour even if they had the correct tools for the job and the size of the tree.

Given that raspin said they had completely ineffectual equipment, I'd put their eventual time to cut down this tower at somewhere around Never, which coincides with the DMG advice on damaging very large objects.

If the players want to cut through, make them get something that can actually cut through. Presumably they'd have to get past the damage threshold to even harm the tree (as one could lamely hit the tree and do little to it, even with an axe).

[AbyssStalker]

Perhaps they could steal one of the pirates' cannons and use it on the support (if they have cannons).

[Sigreid]

So, you don't usually have to go after one of the main legs to collapse a structure. If the structure is long term stable I think there pretty much has to be interconnecting supports that they could take out to undermine the integrity of the tower. Maybe allow a carpentry or masonry roll to know where the weak point is.

[Malifice]

So, you don't usually have to go after one of the main legs to collapse a structure. If the structure is long term stable I think there pretty much has to be interconnecting supports that they could take out to undermine the integrity of the tower. Maybe allow a carpentry or masonry roll to know where the weak point is.

Id go with intelligence (investigation) personally.

[Kane0]

List of spells of 2nd level and lower that may be of use:

Acid Splash
Create Bonfire/Firebolt/Produce Flame
Eldritch Blast (moreso with repelling blast)
Frostbite/Ray of Frost (plus large bludgeon)
Gust
Mold Earth

Burning Hands/Searing Smite
Catapult
Earth Tremor
Thunderwave

Aganazzar's Scorcher/Flame Blade/Scorching Ray
Enhance Ability
Enlarge/Reduce
Gust of Wind
Melf's Acid Arrow
Shatter

Not including utility spells that help you get away with chopping it down the hard way (Silence, Darkness, charms, etc)

Axes and the like should be at least as effective as spells that deal plain HP damage.

[RickAllison]

Id go with intelligence (investigation) personally.

Oooooo, no. All those artisans' tools that never come into play? Make them use those as the proficiency bonus! Finally a use for more than making an adequate lifestyle in off-time.

[kaoskonfety]

Simulationist: Take a look at how long it take the "best of the best" to fell a tree of roughly the same size (its kinda shockingly fast), compare this to the players relative skill level at the task (probably athletics or "tool: carpenter/woodsman" with expertise being the "fast" benchmark) and apply penalties/ significantly extended times based on crappy gear for the task (i.e no axe/saw). Someone with a rapier ain't doing squat.

Narrative: how is this interesting to the story? It takes "as long as it stays interesting plus or minus a bit of screen time varied by a (single or group) skill roll"

Gamist: A multi-round task, say 5-15 successful checks (adjust as desired) at DC 10-20 (adjust as desired) while under attack. Anyone cutting down the tower grants advantage to people attacking them in melee. Bad guys keep coming till the tree is down (or you've killed X bads where X is quite alot). Alternatively its a bank of significant HP with some damage reduction vs everything but Axes.

Is there a fail condition (aside from getting killed by mooks)? Some sort of time frame before overwhelming reinforcements show up (BBEG en-route with cloudkill or something)? or can the players kill everyone defending it and drop it at their leisure?

[obryn]

I dare say 30 seconds is an implausibly short amount of time to chop through even one leg of a tower. I mean...cutting through a 'tree' could take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour even if they had the correct tools for the job and the size of the tree.

It's not supposed to be particularly realistic. It's supposed to feel like an action scene with multiple goals.

[REVISIONIST]

Unrelated to the chopping part, why not just climb the tower and disable the beacon on top. Seems easier.

[Knaight]

I dare say 30 seconds is an implausibly short amount of time to chop through even one leg of a tower. I mean...cutting through a 'tree' could take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour even if they had the correct tools for the job and the size of the tree.

It depends on the size of the legs, but if it's a comparatively small lighthouse (and as a wooden structure it probably is) 30 seconds isn't too unrealistic provided they bring an actual ax. The group almost certainly includes at least one person who is extremely strong, and the setting in question is one where skills like wood cutting are significantly more prevalent than they are today.

[Sigreid]

Id go with intelligence (investigation) personally.

I might would allow investigation as a fallback if they didn't have any structures specific skills, at a higher difficulty since one knows and the other is trying to reason it out without the direct experience to draw upon. But it's the DM's call and you're isn't an unreasonable take that I'd argue with at the table.

[Sigreid]

It depends on the size of the legs, but if it's a comparatively small lighthouse (and as a wooden structure it probably is) 30 seconds isn't too unrealistic provided they bring an actual ax. The group almost certainly includes at least one person who is extremely strong, and the setting in question is one where skills like wood cutting are significantly more prevalent than they are today.

Based on some lumberjack competitions I've seen on t.v. two strong and practiced men with one of those two man saws can get through even a pretty large tree with mind boggling speed.

Edit: and now that I think about it, relatively quietly.

[RickAllison]

Based on some lumberjack competitions I've seen on t.v. two strong and practiced men with one of those two man saws can get through even a pretty large tree with mind boggling speed.

Edit: and now that I think about it, relatively quietly.

Keep in mind that those are people who are trained to do with a specialty tool. As a lumberjack competition, it will have people who have specifically trained to do it fastest.

[Sigreid]

Keep in mind that those are people who are trained to do with a specialty tool. As a lumberjack competition, it will have people who have specifically trained to do it fastest.

Yes, but the players are HEROES! And as I was typing it I had in my mind that we as commentators really don't know what if any tool proficiency the party has available to them. Heck for all I know they are, in fact, a roving band of hero lumberjacks and they're O.K.

[RickAllison]

Yes, but the players are HEROES! And as I was typing it I had in my mind that we as commentators really don't know what if any tool proficiency the party has available to them. Heck for all I know they are, in fact, a roving band of hero lumberjacks and they're O.K.

Based on the fact that it is in question whether they even have an axe, I find it unlikely they will have one of those handy-dandy two-person saws...

[BW022]

Except this isn't a tree; its a tree trunk like pole which is one of four legs of a tower on which rests a beacon which immitates a lighthouse rather nicely for the pirates who reside in the camp next to it.

I'd need more details on this tower/lighthouse. If this structure is of even reasonable size, then we are talking about it weighing tons and any support structure would be massive. Presumably this tree is at least several feet in diameter. Say 5'. In ancient times, cutting down 5' trees would take days if not weeks for large numbers of men. Two man cross-cut saws weren't around until the 17th century and most PCs don't carry multiple tree falling axes, hammers, metal wedges, etc. You can't hit a tree for hours with regular weapons and expect them not to be destroyed. Fireballs, flame bolts, and such spells wouldn't do much to a tree that size.

I would ask players how they plan on falling such a tree and maybe asking for some knowledge checks -- with some bonus to anyone with say forestry, woodworking, farming, etc.

In ancient times, you would typically have a large gang of people with axes and wedges to fall it. You would need multiple cuts and likely scaffolding to allow multiple people working on it. A few days taking alternating 3-4 person shifts. Alternately, you would have a crew of people digging a tunnel under the root system. Then fill it with smaller wood or oil barrels and keep a long term fire burning. Likely burn through in a few days.

You would also have the issue of how many supports you need to take out in order to fall this place and whether whoever is in it is going to just let a construction crew spending days to take it down.

[Doug Lampert]

I'd need more details on this tower/lighthouse. If this structure is of even reasonable size, then we are talking about it weighing tons and any support structure would be massive. Presumably this tree is at least several feet in diameter. Say 5'. In ancient times, cutting down 5' trees would take days if not weeks for large numbers of men. Two man cross-cut saws weren't around until the 17th century and most PCs don't carry multiple tree falling axes, hammers, metal wedges, etc. You can't hit a tree for hours with regular weapons and expect them not to be destroyed. Fireballs, flame bolts, and such spells wouldn't do much to a tree that size.

I would ask players how they plan on falling such a tree and maybe asking for some knowledge checks -- with some bonus to anyone with say forestry, woodworking, farming, etc.

In ancient times, you would typically have a large gang of people with axes and wedges to fall it. You would need multiple cuts and likely scaffolding to allow multiple people working on it. A few days taking alternating 3-4 person shifts. Alternately, you would have a crew of people digging a tunnel under the root system. Then fill it with smaller wood or oil barrels and keep a long term fire burning. Likely burn through in a few days.

You would also have the issue of how many supports you need to take out in order to fall this place and whether whoever is in it is going to just let a construction crew spending days to take it down.

I wouldn't expect a 5' log simply because that's too hard for the pirates to move and raise as a support. If they were interested in fascinating careers in the medieval equivalent of heavy construction work then they probably wouldn't be pirates. They'll have used the lightest wood they can manage the work with, if it only lasts a few years, well, they're probably not building for the long term here.

So likely 2' logs rather than 5'. Which really isn't much help given the lack of tools.

You're not taking this down in a reasonable period by cutting the main support, that's the toughest part!

But the wood is probably held in place by a combination of ropes and wooden pegs, it should be possible to make it fall apart without directly attacking the logs by using your "Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering".

[swrider]

As a player my first instinct would be to see if there are any dying trees close enough to the tower to be knocked over. If so I would attempt to push (cut etc..) that tree so it would fall onto the tower. Even if it was not sufficient damage it might unbalance the structure so it falls over and if you can do it with out using equipment any investigating pirates may be deceived into thinking it was just bad luck.

Of course if the pirates were smart enough to clear the area round the light house this may not be an option.

[raspin]

They decided to murder the pirates by night as they slept in their tents. The paladin, having been told he wasnt stealthy enough to join them and having been assured they would try to subdue the pirates, went off on his own. Climbed to the top of the tower and spent the time putting the beacon out with a view to deconstructing the tower when time was less of an issue....

[Doug Lampert]

They decided to murder the pirates by night as they slept in their tents. The paladin, having been told he wasnt stealthy enough to join them and having been assured they would try to subdue the pirates, went off on his own. Climbed to the top of the tower and spent the time putting the beacon out with a view to deconstructing the tower when time was less of an issue....

Real Life: First pirate whose throat is cut wakes up, desperately tries to either hold his throat together or attacks whoever just cut his throat, in either case he makes a lot of noise prior to losing consciousness about 15 seconds later and expires shortly thereafter having woken the camp.

D&D land: Autocrit, may or may not instant kill.

This assumes that Pirates who maintain a lighthouse don't maintain a night watch and that none of them are having trouble sleeping that night.

Sneak into the camp and kill everyone isn't an impossible plan, but it's also not something that's worked at all often historically.

[raspin]

The pirates did have sentries, mostly drunk and phoning it in. They died first. Two of them, the monk and rogue, went tent to tent. The pirates were weak, 11 hps, so they killed them easily until they got about halfway round and heard a monkey getting agitated in a tent. A voice in the tent told the baboon to calm down. They skipped this tent and went on to the next one and killed the pirate inside but heard the previous tent open hearing the mini boss pirate telling off his monkey. The monk cut a small hole in tent so he could see out. He could see boots and furry feet. Obviously a fair few stealth checks but they used the monks move without trace. They then heard him say...where are those lazy dam sentries and realised the jig was up. They sneaked up behind the baboon and mini boss and killed his monkey and attacked him. The mini boss ranger then stabbed himself in the arm with an arrow and fired it into the trees. As they went to attack again he vanished before their eyes (appearing where the arrow landed out in the darkness of the trees). The camp was now waking up and one of the assassins indicated to the chunky cleric and paladin it was time to rumble as the remaining pirates poured from their tents. They were victorious but not before the mini boss pirate ranger downed the paladin.

Then they disguised themselves like the pirates and rowed out toward the pirate sloop moored in the bay....

[Sigreid]

They decided to murder the pirates by night as they slept in their tents. The paladin, having been told he wasnt stealthy enough to join them and having been assured they would try to subdue the pirates, went off on his own. Climbed to the top of the tower and spent the time putting the beacon out with a view to deconstructing the tower when time was less of an issue....

Just goes to show that good plans start by lying to the party paladin!

[ShikomeKidoMi]

They decided to murder the pirates by night as they slept in their tents. The paladin, having been told he wasnt stealthy enough to join them and having been assured they would try to subdue the pirates, went off on his own. Climbed to the top of the tower and spent the time putting the beacon out with a view to deconstructing the tower when time was less of an issue....

Time doesn't seem to matter much in this scenario, then, unless the pirates are expecting reinforcements. After all the pirates are dead you can just tell the players it takes them half an hour/an hour/several hours to collapse the whole tower and you won't have to waste game time on damage rolls on a log support.

[Cybren]

It's not supposed to be particularly realistic. It's supposed to feel like an action scene with multiple goals.

It's not very plausible at establishing that. Once the fight starts why bother with the tree? The pirates are all going to die anyway.

[ericgrau]

Figure out hp, apply a bonus to an axe, apply a penalty to a club or mace. Job done, next encounter, moving on. But seriously don't spend too much time on something like this. Just make something up and keep the game moving. That's what a proper DM does, not waste time hunting down a rule for every little action. It's bla bla bla, ok you guys take X minutes, 1 minute of real world time passes, story goes on.

Dunno if 5e has object breaking rules like 3.5e but they could be helpful for next time so you don't have to think as much. Key words are "next time" though. Midgame you just ad hoc.

There's no quiet way to chop barring silence magic or some such. So set a very low flat perception DC, maybe -10, and increase for distance. Use passive perception unless foes are actively scouting. Compare passive perception to DC to see if anybody comes.

[bulbaquil]

When I am running 5e and have to deal with object hardness and hit points, I usually just borrow them from Pathfinder, with some common-sense adjustments. Using appropriate tools (in this case, fire or a woodcutter's axe) either bypasses the hardness and/or does additional damage.

[raspin]

Time doesn't seem to matter much in this scenario, then, unless the pirates are expecting reinforcements. After all the pirates are dead you can just tell the players it takes them half an hour/an hour/several hours to collapse the whole tower and you won't have to waste game time on damage rolls on a log support.

Well they hadn't yet decided what they planned to do when I posted. I was trying to ensure I was prepared. As it was it didn't matter and they will no doubt disable it next session.