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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    I think the main problem is that GW has no sense at all of subtlety, this can be seen from their models to their rules. Rather than dialing something back a bit they gut it, and then it is too weak so they make it super powerful again. The funny thing is that GW can never see this but the community does within days (or sometimes hours) of seeing the rules.
    I don't know if GW is so unaware. They know the sellings percentage... I tend to imagine it goes more like:
    "Big monsters don't sell too much. In this edition give 'em a boost".
    later:
    "We sold a lot of Big monsters... the market is basically full of 'em. In the next edition give a boost to anti-monster units!".

    They may not care about the game, but I doubt they were so blind to consequences of unbalanced rules and overpowered models...
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2016-02-22 at 07:10 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    I don't know if GW is so unaware. They know the sellings percentage... I tend to imagine it goes more like:
    "Big monsters don't sell too much. In this edition give 'em a boost".
    later:
    "We sold a lot of Big monsters... the market is basically full of 'em. In the next edition give a boost to anti-monster units!".

    They may not care about the game, but I doubt they were so blind to consequences of unbalanced rules and overpowered models...
    That is very likely. I don't know if "they are incompetent idiots" or "they're purposefully screwing over the players by changing the rules to drive sales" is worse though. Probably the malicious intent version. But given how they've killed the game for so many people, I'm still not ruling out complete and total incompetence either.


    I think the most telling of the quality of the game is "would you play the game if it didn't have GW's name on it?" and for most people the answer is no. The game might play decently (if you balance it yourself) but pretty much no one, even many of the fans of the new game, have said they wouldn't even have tried the game after looking over the rules if it weren't for the fact that it is GW and that they already had all of the models and the rules were free.

    I simply can't see the game pulling in new players. There are *so* many options out there for peoples hobby/entertainment money that you have to have something that really stands out. AoS rules don't stand out, they don't do anything revolutionary or unique. Their models are good (though I think they've got from a very wide range of appeal to a more extreme design which is going to have its own appeal but much more limited in who that will appeal to) but they are also really expensive. There are a lot of other companies that make good models and at lower to much lower prices.
    Why would a potential new player go into AoS over the many options that are out there now? Even board games are getting some really great models, with less complex rules and quicker play times than the traditional TT wargame.

    edit:
    a quick recap of the latest GW/Fantasy news as stolen from someone else:
    GW in 2004: "We will not squat another army."
    GW in 2015: "You will be able to continue playing your Fantasy armies in Age of Sigmar."
    GW in 2016: "We're squatting Tomb Kings - and probably will squat Bretonnia soon as well. We are not sorry, and we won't apologize."
    Last edited by Erloas; 2016-02-22 at 10:47 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    My theory on that is they wanted to make the Horned Rat more important while maintaining the general rule of four with the big gods of Chaos (they did kill all the others in the End Times or had gradually retconned them away over the years, four gods works well in 40k, so why not try it elsewhere?) so one of the others needed to get sidelined, for whatever reason they picked Slaanesh to be removed as a major force but still kept him around because he has miniatures.

    I assume they picked Slaanesh because his minis don't sell well compared to the others.
    But making the Horned Rat one of the Big Four makes zero sense. The primary difference between the Big Four and the minor Chaos Gods is that they are associated with broad-ranging and common concepts. The thing is, the Horned Rat represents nothing. He is a mere racial Chaos God (like Hashut), associated with a single race. He doesn't even have a really unique theme! He is just an amalgamation of Tzeentch and Nurgle with some rats for aesthetics. And he only gets power from worship, since there is no specific emotion or concept belonging to him. This means he is ultra-vulnerable: take out his worshippers and he is toast. The Big Four doesn't have such problems, because even if nobody worships Khorne, as long as there is war and bloodshed, he still gets power.

    Make no mistake, I am not bashing the Horned Rat. I like him and the Skaven very much. But I don't like them being pushed forward in exchange of one of my other favorites being removed. This is like killing off the Adeptus Mechanicus, so that the Iron Hands can be more prominent. It is just madness...

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    But boobies.

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    But boobies.
    Your argument is invalid, because you can still field his/her booby-armies if you want.
    Furthermore, there are many other visual shorthands for Slaanesh. Like snakes, bulls, crabs, the colors purple and pink, etc.
    Besides, I have just realized that we have tons of prophecies in fluff (especially in Liber Chaotica) concerning Slaanesh that portray him/her as the "Last and Greatest" of the Chaos Gods. The inheritor of the Throne, the fulfiller of the promise of Chaos. GW just retconned these to oblivion with this AoS nonsense.

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    I don't want the horned rat to be a chaos god for a different reason. Because I don't want the skaven as yet another chaos army. I want them to have their own goals and reasons, seperate from those of chaos. And I especially always disliked how every campaign always automatically threw them in with chaos. Why can't we ever be serving in the background behind the Empire, because humans make good slaves and food and we don't want to see them wiped out by daemons?
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I don't want the horned rat to be a chaos god for a different reason. Because I don't want the skaven as yet another chaos army. I want them to have their own goals and reasons, separate from those of chaos. And I especially always disliked how every campaign always automatically threw them in with chaos. Why can't we ever be serving in the background behind the Empire, because humans make good slaves and food and we don't want to see them wiped out by daemons?
    But the Horned Rat has always been a chaos god, just a minor one like Hashut (who to my knowledge is still dead.)

    Last I checked the Horned Rat's goal was for the Skaven to kill every other race, making him supreme deity of the Warhammer world. That plan ultimately failed, and a power vacuum opened up with Slaanesh dead, so now he's filling the vacuum as the new fourth most powerful god. Though he, like the others, is stronger than before having glutted himself on the souls of the old world. Millions of Skaven souls is quite a power boost.

    The mortal followers of Chaos, the Gods themselves, and most importantly Archaeon don't consider him a Chaos God, instead viewing him as a verminous pretender. He is still mostly just served by the Skaven, since Archaeon and his forces rejected him.

    I remember hearing he was going to be somehow involved with the new Beastmen, but so far I don't think GW have fleshed out either the Skaven or the Beastmen in AoS, so that's still a wait and see thing. Though I think the Skaven are meant to be able to gnaw holes between the realms, enabling them to sneak and skulk throughout reality rather than having to wage full scale wars for the natural portals between realms.
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I don't want the horned rat to be a chaos god for a different reason. Because I don't want the skaven as yet another chaos army. I want them to have their own goals and reasons, seperate from those of chaos. And I especially always disliked how every campaign always automatically threw them in with chaos. Why can't we ever be serving in the background behind the Empire, because humans make good slaves and food and we don't want to see them wiped out by daemons?
    Honestly, Chaos wanting to erase the entire world never made much sense for me. Sure, turning it to a Chaos Wastes-esque hellish paradise is one thing. But why would you destroy your own pantry?
    And I am totally with you on this question. I would go even as far as to suggest that not even Chaos Warriors should be presented as a united front. Sure we have the Everchosen to lead them around, but who honestly thinks that the Gods or their followers would ever consider putting aside their own agenda? Archaon should be absolutely swamped by domestic issues ("Nurglites again infected the rest of the horde with a new, fatal plague." "The Slaaneshi managed to taunt the Khornates into attacking everyone in sight." "Tzeentchians won't stop betraying everyone to everyone.")

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Malistrae View Post
    Honestly, Chaos wanting to erase the entire world never made much sense for me. Sure, turning it to a Chaos Wastes-esque hellish paradise is one thing. But why would you destroy your own pantry?
    And I am totally with you on this question. I would go even as far as to suggest that not even Chaos Warriors should be presented as a united front. Sure we have the Everchosen to lead them around, but who honestly thinks that the Gods or their followers would ever consider putting aside their own agenda? Archaon should be absolutely swamped by domestic issues ("Nurglites again infected the rest of the horde with a new, fatal plague." "The Slaaneshi managed to taunt the Khornates into attacking everyone in sight." "Tzeentchians won't stop betraying everyone to everyone.")
    The Chaos Gods destroyed the world because they got bored with it. They didn't actually need it as a source of energy anymore, there were other worlds for that, so when they felt like they had wrung the last bit of amusement out of it they sucked it dry and moved on to other places to play their Great Game. Worlds, mortals, souls, these things don't really matter to them, they're just ways to keep score.

    What makes you think the Warriors of Chaos are presented as a united front? There are hundred of warbands, almost all of which fight whenever the chance comes up, all of which have internal strife and are based around the rule of the strong over the weak. Archaon has even been attacked by Chaos forces numerous times, he's just acknowledged as the single strongest of all chaos champions.
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Malistrae View Post
    Your argument is invalid, because you can still field his/her booby-armies if you want.
    Furthermore, there are many other visual shorthands for Slaanesh. Like snakes, bulls, crabs, the colors purple and pink, etc.
    Besides, I have just realized that we have tons of prophecies in fluff (especially in Liber Chaotica) concerning Slaanesh that portray him/her as the "Last and Greatest" of the Chaos Gods. The inheritor of the Throne, the fulfiller of the promise of Chaos. GW just retconned these to oblivion with this AoS nonsense.
    At the moment.

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    The Chaos Gods destroyed the world because they got bored with it. They didn't actually need it as a source of energy anymore, there were other worlds for that, so when they felt like they had wrung the last bit of amusement out of it they sucked it dry and moved on to other places to play their Great Game. Worlds, mortals, souls, these things don't really matter to them, they're just ways to keep score.
    This is sound logic in a way, but it disregards the fact that A, Chaos only held total dominion over the entire world for a short amount of time B, they could have just turned it into a Daemon World. While I am conflating F and 40k here a bit, the Chaos Gods were almost never shown completely destroying a world. Daemons might have massacred all the inhabitants, the world might have become inhospitable to mortals, etc. but the these worlds still existed in some shape or form. We have near-zero precedent of them completely erasing a world.
    And let's face it, it was GW that decided that they were bored with the WF world. If we follow the characterisation of the Chaos Gods given in various sources, such as Liber Chaotica, they should have kept the world around as yet another daemonic battlefield of the Great Game. Why single out this world for complete destruction specifically?
    Edit: To clarify, I am clinging to this position, because I prefer portraying Chaos as a legitimate alternative in both 40k and Fantasy. End Times seriously undermined my position (as GW went with cartoonishly omnicidal for no reasons whatsoever portrayal of Chaos), which is why I loath it.
    Last edited by Malistrae; 2016-02-22 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Malistrae View Post
    To clarify, I am clinging to this position, because I prefer portraying Chaos as a legitimate alternative in both 40k and Fantasy. End Times seriously undermined my position (as GW went with cartoonishly omnicidal for no reasons whatsoever portrayal of Chaos), which is why I loath it.
    Most of the champions of chaos survived the End Times, either by ascending to Daemonhood or by travelling to other places through the Warp. For them Chaos was and is a viable choice of faction.
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Most of the champions of chaos survived the End Times, either by ascending to Daemonhood or by travelling to other places through the Warp. For them Chaos was and is a viable choice of faction.
    Well, I accept that as compromise. While not quite the nuanced portrayal of Chaos that I prefer, it's still better than everyone (including the champions) getting their soul devoured, which would portray Chaos followers as suicidally idiotic (which many of them are, just for different reasons). As long as the important people (the ones with marks) made it out, it's cool. The common trash deserved everything they got.
    Last edited by Malistrae; 2016-02-22 at 01:55 PM.

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Malistrae View Post
    But making the Horned Rat one of the Big Four makes zero sense. The primary difference between the Big Four and the minor Chaos Gods is that they are associated with broad-ranging and common concepts. The thing is, the Horned Rat represents nothing. He is a mere racial Chaos God (like Hashut), associated with a single race. He doesn't even have a really unique theme! He is just an amalgamation of Tzeentch and Nurgle with some rats for aesthetics. And he only gets power from worship, since there is no specific emotion or concept belonging to him. This means he is ultra-vulnerable: take out his worshippers and he is toast. The Big Four doesn't have such problems, because even if nobody worships Khorne, as long as there is war and bloodshed, he still gets power.

    Make no mistake, I am not bashing the Horned Rat. I like him and the Skaven very much. But I don't like them being pushed forward in exchange of one of my other favorites being removed. This is like killing off the Adeptus Mechanicus, so that the Iron Hands can be more prominent. It is just madness...
    This is a pretty nice sum of my feelings on the matter. Thanks
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    I suppose this could be posted also in warhammer fantasy thread...

    Dear GW, the decision to put an end to Tomb Kings was already filling me with infinite sadness... why are you cutting down also a large part of models of dwarfs, elves (all the three factions) Brets and Empire?

    Farewell, my beloved Old World...
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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    I suppose this could be posted also in warhammer fantasy thread...

    Dear GW, the decision to put an end to Tomb Kings was already filling me with infinite sadness... why are you cutting down also a large part of models of dwarfs, elves (all the three factions) Brets and Empire?

    Farewell, my beloved Old World...


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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    I suppose this could be posted also in warhammer fantasy thread...

    Dear GW, the decision to put an end to Tomb Kings was already filling me with infinite sadness... why are you cutting down also a large part of models of dwarfs, elves (all the three factions) Brets and Empire?

    Farewell, my beloved Old World...


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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Fear not, they live on, in the 9th age: http://www.the-ninth-age.com/

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Its been gone for years. The possible good things that came from the start of Time of Legends and then The End Times were wasted. I'm happy Fantasy died at a time in which Inhad Rose tinted glasses to look back on it.

    At the same time i'd like to work for a company that allows such criminal incompetence to continue. In the day and age in which even cereals have a twitter that GW are that stupid to see the various Customer Service parts as another catalogue is... Imbecilic.

    I think they should just cut the crap and stop selling games books completely and let their 'model company' attitude take center stage completely.

    Because lets face it, while technologically good, the new models are soulless and ****.

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    Default Re: WarHammer: Age of Sigmar Discussion Thread

    Just listened to Prisoner of the Black Sun, and Sands of Blood. I'm sure the big reveal at the end of 'Prisoner would have been awesome if 'Sands didn't spoil the whole thing right on the back.

    I also noticed a lot of repetition. Word-for-word. If they're designed as a series, you shouldn't have to keep explaining the same thing over and over again. Read the first book, it's there. In the sequel, you don't have to explain it again because your audience has already had it explained to them in the first book, right?

    It's atmospheric (all the audio dramas are), and the story line is...Fine. But the copy-pasted repetition of whole paragraphs really bothers me.
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