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2016-02-10, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
The Efreet was chilling at home, hanging with its buddies in the City of Brass (or whatever that town on the Plane of Fire is called), when all of a sudden, BOOM! called to the Material Plane. What would you do in the situation? Be neighborly? The Efreet helps you today sure, because it knows tomorrow, you're dead.
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2016-02-10, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
No.
Outsider Type
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
Features
An outsider has the following features.
8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creatures entry).
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual natureits soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, dont work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2016-02-10, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I believe it was either detailed in a splat, or is something specific to perhaps demons/devils. But there is something that says that at least some outsiders are pretty much incapable of being killed, as they always reform on their home plane at some point in the future.
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2016-02-10, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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2016-02-10, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Word of giant* on this. I don't think anyone is winning this argument.
* Not really 'word of giant' in the inarguable sense, but conveys the point better than I can.
If they do reform they will be pissed. If they don't reform they will have friends who are even more pissed. Planar binding is stealing power, and stealing power is always dangerous. The more powerful or useful the creature the more dangerous it is.
How would people rule the wish
"I wish for this efreeti to be protected from planar binding"?
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2016-02-10, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
The Fluff to Crunch ratio really is a mess here.
Itīs Calling, so you get the actual creature, an NPC then, not a perfect copy of one.
That also means that it has to understand what you want from it and has the knowledge to act upon that. This whole discussion hinges on "transparency" and having "clear and perfect knowledge" about all elements involved.
I point to the ongoing discussion with Behest here: You are not your character. The "technical side" does not automatically carry over to in-game knowledge and an NPC does not automatically understand what you mean when youīre using "technical terms".
So far, I havenīt read any really convincing arguments that any side, character or outsider, knows the exact items (in the sense of the technical term) weīre talking about.
The same would hold true for sudden teleports to location XY or plane shifts to YZ. That is player knowledge intruding into the game.
Note that I donīt advocate "Keeping characters small" or "Barring players from options" here, I just have the very distinct feeling that most exploits are based on the purely "technical side" of player knowledge and donīt carry over all too well to the in-game side of things.
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2016-02-10, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-10, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
You certainly can argue that it is impossible to wish for items because you character can't possibly know what an item is, and likewise it is impossible to craft items, and likewise impossible to buy items... I don't know why you would think that when the DMG has rules for buying items and crafting items, and the PHB has rules for wishing for items.
Maybe they just assumed that no one would seriously be so purposefully dumb as to demand a rules citation for knowing that items exist. Maybe, just maybe, arguing that people can't buy or craft items because what even are items is not the best way to address Wishes for Items. Just maybe.
If you are using Gate (Or Candle of Invocation, which casts Gate) then you don't need anything, because you just super mega mind control them for the duration of the Gate, and make them Wish properly and give you what you want.
So just to be clear, you admit that you were completely in the wrong and Efferti doesn't come back to life, he stays dead?
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2016-02-10, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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2016-02-10, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
It actually is detailed in the summoning section.
Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it cant be summoned again.
But as I pointed out that's not the case because a calling spell is being used, then that was refutted by saying it was an inherent thing of outsiders. I flatly said no to that.Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2016-02-10, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-10, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
@Behest:
You do like to use your hyperboles, donīt you?
I asked a very simple question and that is where you character (not the player) gets all the necessary knowledge from to make all of it work. Itīs a simple assumption that when you have the according crafting feats and be the right class, once you hit the necessary CL you know what you do, i.e. divine CL17 for a Candle of Invocation.
The answer you fail to provide so far is how the heck everyone else knows what that items is, what itīs name is and how it works. Itīs that simple, just state where the knowledge comes from and all is well.
@zergling.exe:
Mostly itīs blank territory where we know nothing about. We do know some details about specific outsider races (Demons for example), but mostly, itīs a blank slate.
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2016-02-10, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I already answered that. Just state how you know what an item is in order to buy it, just state where the knowledge comes from and all is well.
Once you accept that you can buy items without a rules citation for how you know a specific item exists, you can move on to wishing them too.
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2016-02-10, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I think we really have to go back to some basics here so we can discuss this further and go into the details, as I find the whole topic to be very interesting.
First, there is a certain disparity here that we need to clear up first, and that is between "Available Items" and "Creating characters beyond 1st level and using WBL".
When you use the rules to create a community, you randomly roll for what items of which kind are available to buy for the current month. That is what is available and known, changing every month.
Itīs a common house rule to scratch that and simply focus on the spending limit, but that is just that: a house rule, far away from being RAW.
Second option here is to create NPC based on community creation and see what kinds of items they could craft/sell, commonly assuming that they have the necessary crafting feats, knowledge of spells and a willingness to do just that. Again, house rule territory, no RAW involved.
Generally speaking, we have a problem here. Using RAW, we canīt actually generate the environment we need to make it work. Sad but true.
Bizarre as it is, creating a higher-level character from scratch using pure WBL gives us way more options then the rules governing in-game items would allow for. A Candle of Invocation pretty much is the prime example here, being reasonably cheap but needing a CL 17 Cleric to craft it.
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2016-02-10, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2016-02-10, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Sorry, no citation right now as Iīm on my mobile and that is a chore. If needed, I can do that when I come home.
The rules on the DMG/SRD are quite clear on this topic, though: If you donīt find the answer in the rules, refer either to "our" reality or the specific campaign setting you use and go from there.
Using those rules only lets us generate NPC up to a certain level and thatīs it. If we use the aforementioned guidelines, "someone needs to create it so we can buy it", then there is a very specific cap on what is available before we have to find it or create it ourselves.
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2016-02-10, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
It doesn't say that anywhere in my DMG. In fact it says pretty much exactly the opposite of that:
Originally Posted by DMG
Or perhaps you can tell us the hypothetical rule that allows PCs to know an item exists and therefore look for it in the city?
Absent that, I'm going to have to stick with "The characters know what items can be created/wished/bought because knowing what items can be created/wished/bought is just something that is assumed everyone relevant knows."
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2016-02-10, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-10, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I went and checked the fiendish codex, pg 9, a demon does reform into a new demon. It mentions reincarnate though, so I am willing to concede that memory is preserved. It doesn't mention how long it takes. So that's most likely a plot coupon.
Of course the fact that demons have that specific ruling bears no consequence to the general ruling of they are dead. So it's most decidedly not a blank slate.
Pg 106, 114.Last edited by thethird; 2016-02-10 at 11:58 AM.
Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2016-02-10, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Uh what? You are going to have to take a whole heaping of steps back and explain that reasoning that led you to challenge me to point to some specific thing that I never claimed anything about, and seems completely unrelated to any of my claims.
Items exist in cities, and you can totally just buy anything under the GP limits, even though zero rules tell you that you know any items exist at all, do you disagree that you were completely wrong about your previous claim of rolling up items in cities?
Can we get back to the point where you present any difference at all between items in cities being bought by people without a text citation of how they know to look for items and items being wished into existence?
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2016-02-10, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I have stated my base reasoning. Someone crafted it and put it up on the market, it is for sale. Very easy chain of effects to follow.
Thereīs a rather huge gap here between "what is possible because we have the rules for it" and "what is reasonable because we have rules for it and donīt need gm fiat".
So when we use the rules for creating campaign worlds, what we end up is lvl 12th casters at most before applying gm fiat and introducing "named" NPC. So where does that stuff come from? Who crafts and sells it? This issue is best exemplified when using the Eberron core setting, as no NPC there is stated to be higher then level 12. So where does that magic junk come from? Again, basic DMG thingie here: Base it on "our" reality if you donīt have answers. No creators, no items, no ready knowledge about them. Simple.
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2016-02-10, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2010
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
That is not an answer to the question on distinct levels:
1) All the items exist, we know they exist because the DMG says they exist, so we don't need to find out how they exist, even if only level 12 casters exist, maybe every single item in the game was wished up by Efferti. The issue is "How do PCs know the items exist in order to look for and buy a specific one?" The DMG explains over and over that the PCs get to come to their decision about what items to look for, and then they find them. How, in your twisted imagination in which you need a rules cite to know an item exists, do they do that?
2) How did the person who crafted the item know the item existed to be crafted? Do you have a page citation for your completely baseless claim that being able to craft an item immediately grants you knowledge of it's existence as a thing you could craft by psychic insertion?
And wishing for items that you know exist is something that we don't need gm fiat for.
And knowing that items exist is so basic, that if your DM declares you can't know about them, you can't buy them.
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2016-02-10, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2012
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Worst case scenario: Knowledge:
If you really need and in-game, mechanical basis for knowing items exist, Knowledge: Arcana (DC 10 or less) for general knowlegde of the existance on Magic Items;
Knowledge: Religion (DC 15, or more likely 20+) for the specifics of the Candle of Invocation;
Knowledge: The Planes (DC 20) for information about the Efreeti.
True, none of those (aside from info about monsters) are RAW, per se, but does seem a fairly reasonable use of the skill.
Also, Wizard...(all Knowledge skills as class skills, generally accepted to put ranks in (at least) the the ones that give information about creatures...)Remember, posting links to TVTropes is Vile.
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2016-02-10, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2016-02-10, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Perhaps there is no end point to this conversation.
Apparently Beheld is simply arguing RAW, not what should happen in real games.
And the RAW are dumb on multiple levels. It's very buggy code. The game crashes when you push on it. Especially against a dummy DM.
And wish is terrible RAW. No gp limit on magic items? WHY DID YOU DO THAT, WOTC? Open permission for the DM to interpret a wish in such a way to hurt the players? No limitation, even bad buggy limitation on wishing for more wishes? WOTC DGAF.
This entire conversation has no discernable endpoint because... schroedinger's circumstances.
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2016-02-10, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I repeat it a third time: Iīm not talking against high-level stuff as that is part of the high-level game and therefore part of D&D.
.
I argue against mixing player and character knowledge and basing all decisions on pure player knowledge as that simply doesnīt work and breaks any versimilitude, thatīs all.
You, the player, can have way more knowledge about the in-game reality than the character you play actually has. If you donīt separate those things, a lot of stuff simply becomes meaningless.
In the same way, the rules themselves provide way more options than may actually be part of the in-game reality.
So yes, there is a glaring disparity here. RAW provides options but that options must be available in the in-game reality, else any notion of a simulation is pretty meaningless and you can simply screw any attempt at making a setting internally consistent.
Taking Eberron as an example, the highest level core NPC being lvl12, again, do tell me where CL 13+ items do come from when not simply falling out of the sky.
Simple answer: They donīt. Weīre either talking about blindly sticking to RAW here or we talk about pure gm fiat.
Now if we go by pure gm fiat, then screw RAW and anything goes in any way possible.
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2016-02-10, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Maybe they come from somewhere extradimensional? I have no idea. The game says the items are there, so they're there. If you're going to blindly follow RAW to determine demographic breakdowns, might as well blindly follow RAW to determine item breakdowns. And, again, this plan doesn't rely at all on out of character knowledge. You are fully in your rights to wish for a custom item. And, besides that, your character is necessarily both hyper-intelligent, and specifically specialized in this area. Can we say with 100% certainty that the character knows about this item? No. Can we say that with sufficient certainty that it's ridiculous to assert that metagaming is necessarily occurring? Absolutely. Can we use something as simple as a knowledge roll to determine this knowledge without causing any problems? Definitely. And, again, if the wizard doesn't know about the item, it doesn't matter, cause they don't need to. Hell, you could even know about the far less expensive and thus better known candle of invocation of the ring is causing such problems. Knowledge discrepancy isn't a problem here on any level.
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2016-02-10, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
I'm clearly not understanding your arguments.
Let me paraphrase.
1) You challenge to find where 17th level cleric NPCs are stated on the DMG
2) I provide a page number
3) ...?
4) You claim that high level is irrelevant, and then use Eberron as an example of only going up to 12th level
Now, allow me to introduce you to Thondred, player's guide to Eberron pg 17, an epic artificer (who by definition is an NPC with more than 12 levels and crafting feats in Eberron).Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2016-02-10, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
Yep. As far as I can tell, the conflict here isn't really about wish or Efreet, it's about willingness to accept that RAW is broken. One camp wants RAW to work, so they rely on bad DM ("the gods kill you if you try") or bizarre interpretations of RAW ("epic magic items aren't items") or whatever Florian is doing. The other camp thinks people should just admit that RAW is broken, fix it in a way that works for their games, and move on.
And wish is terrible RAW.
No gp limit on magic items? WHY DID YOU DO THAT, WOTC?
1. Forgot how SLAs worked.
2. No playtesting.
3. A designer thought it was cool.
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2016-02-10, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick question regarding the infamous "efreeti wish" loophole...
You simply overlook the middle ground here, where I base my argument on.
All the stuff we talk about (Gate, Wish, Efreeti, Candle of Invocation) do not pose a problem until you begin to combine them to create an ever-growing infinity loop, a thing that is also ok by itself.
But your character must know all that stuff and how they interact to make the infinity loop work in the first base.
So the character must know what an Efreet is and that it grants wished (Knowledge Planes)
He must know that a Candle of Invocation exists and that it gates in outsiders. (Spellcraft check to identify that item once you see it)
He must further know that gated Efreeti will grant further wishes.
And so on.
My argument is simply based on where that exact knowledge came from and how your character came into its possession.
@thethird:
No, I challenged where "regular" 17th level casters come from without being "handcrafted" by the GM.
Stuff must come from somewhere or else "its magic" will simply run rampant. Eggs come from chicken and Candles of Invocation come from 17th Cl divine casters and thatīs it. No chickens, no eggs, no crafting divine casters of that level, no candles. Simple as that.
I think that eggynack nailed it that stuff has to come from somewhere and that this somewhere might be extraplanar, but that is just giving RAW an explanation.