Naruto IX: [Epilogue Intensifies]

[Ramza00]

The reason why her Shannaro personality vanished is because she learned how to show her true self.

At least that was the intent. It never amounted to anything, sadly.

Well I want to see more of this Sakura being expressed now and then!

Spoiler: Links to an image from the Boruto TV show

Show

https://pa1.narvii.com/6610/cf1d24e8...d66460e_hq.gif

Sigh, Naruto is a mess on so many levels even if it was good also on so many levels. It is a mixed kind of thing.

I hope someday we get an edited / redone Naruto anime in the spirit of Dragonball Kai. I have given up on Boruto, I still read the manga but it is both too slow and also so much a mess.

[LaZodiac]

Well I want to see more of this Sakura being expressed now and then!

Spoiler: Links to an image from the Boruto TV show

Show

https://pa1.narvii.com/6610/cf1d24e8...d66460e_hq.gif

Sigh, Naruto is a mess on so many levels even if it was good also on so many levels. It is a mixed kind of thing.

I hope someday we get an edited / redone Naruto anime in the spirit of Dragonball Kai. I have given up on Boruto, I still read the manga but it is both too slow and also so much a mess.

The world would be a better place if we had more "Sakura throwing entire buildings at mother****ers" gifs.

[Ramza00]

The world would be a better place if we had more "Sakura throwing entire buildings at mother****ers" gifs.

While posting that above GIF I realized / remembered that Sakura's power set is similar to All Might, and suddenly I was sad for she is such a disappointing character, and it need not be so, yet it is.

Literally All for One is a multi generational version of Strength of a Hundred Seal + Yin Seal: Release. Both of these techniques / quirks give you enhanced strength and a form of invulnerability (now it is regen vs high resistance of damage, but still it is invulnerability.)

Sigh!

[khadgar567]

actualy good way to fix the plot of naruto / boruto stuff is kinda intruduce supreme kai of all thinks aka main brach member of ootsuki clan to get story have solid grip on where it is going as whole series one focuses oootsuki clan members mistake thus creation of tailed beasts which kickstarts the entire plot of naruto thus all story focuses on who becomes perverbial goku to connect the main struggling plot to connect to entire story.
all naruto managed to done is actualy beat pilaf arc of entire story then thanks to sheer luck or cardinal rule of japanese anime he married to hinata thus updating plot to acces first kai level people and pass the torch to boruto who kinda makes last needed piceses to start space arc of naruto stories by marring his team mate sarada and all sakura adds to mix is second chakra storage vessel to newest natural rinnegan holderwhich explains entire plot in his mega arc.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, dammit. Ain't gonna finish Polaris sector tonight, after all that effort, so frack it, little late probably, but it's panto next week so I'mma not get anything useful done anyway...

Bleakbane Catches Up With Naruto

The Infinite Tsukuyomi

And, with a messy splat, the midden hits the windmill!

Sasuke twigs just barely in time to dive down to Team Seven and encase them all in the Susanoo.

The Infinite Tsukuyomi activates. (Gotta say, Magic Tree Lady does have some style, at least...)

The four prior hokages are unaffected (though we don't see Minato until the very end).

Hiruzen, though, is close enough to see that Zetsu guy fighting on the giant hundred-hand wood golem give up and reveal him to be...

Yamato.

Huh. Well. Damn. Didn't see that coming, though it should have been REALLY OBVIOUS in hindsight. Nice one, show.

So we get a little sliver of a Yamato episode (poor bloke, finally free for half a minute and then right back down again).

Apparently, his perfect world consists of Kakashi nearly getting kidnapped by Kabuto, and Yamato largely failing to save him, except for Sasuke showing back up at the last moment and the Kakashi making him permenant leader of Team Seven.

...

Given they showed what'shername girl from the ANBU arc, I was three-quarters expecting him to have imagined her being married to him or something, seeing as he was on about not having a family, but no, apparently Team Seven Plus Sai is it.

That's... kind of sad really.

To the Dream World and Where Tenten Belongs

Oh hell yeah! Tenten arc! Road to Ninja World! Doesn't get better than this! I've been looking forward to this for absolutely ages, since I saw a clip on youtube.

We join Tenten as she legs it towards Madara, legendary ninja tools in-scroll-in-hand.

But not quie in time as the Infinite Tsukuyomi lands! Tenten is still - impressively reaching for the scroll when she's wrapped up.

Road to Ninja World!

Now, see the problem here is that it's ever entirely clear whether Road-to-Ninja world is entirely a fabrication, or whether it is an actual paralellel dimension. We've seen it more than once, and in one episode, apparently Sakura from the Road-to-Ninja world manifested in the primary... which indicates, I think there is maybe slightly more going on here than just "plain" old ridiculously-powerful genjutsu.

Tenten wakes up and is enormously confused. She still has the scroll - a slit in it where a rock pierced it just before she got discomknockerated. She soon runs into "cool and hip" Guy and Lee, which horrifes her (and rightly so) - and is even more bewildered by Neji (who is dead) showing up and then perving on her bra with his byankugan.

She is growing more alarmed - especially when she doesn't recongnise the face of the Forth Hokage (Sakura's dad) and lunch with the Rookie Twelve is both hilarious (for us) and worrisome for Tenten. She excuses herself and finding a quiet spot, tries desparately to break the genjutsu.

In the morning, she blows of training and missions (which bemuse and alarm Lee and Neji - apparently, Tenten isn't so different here) to go research. Cue hijinks (watching Sasuke get pummeled by Sakura for being flirty is totally worth it), with an increasinglt frustated Tenten trying so hard to stay on task and get home, so she can save everyone.

In the end, it comes to blows, literally as Road-to-Hinata (she sounds so different her voice is almost unrecognisable!) steals her scroll and very nerly gets a Giant Axe to the face. Menma (the local not-Naruto) stops it and gives Tenten the scroll back.

She next tries Kurenai, but around here, Kurenai can't use genjutsu, only collects it. But it handily removes any of the regular methods of breaking out. Despairing, Tenten is approached by a merchant dude, who says there is a bloke in Rain who might be able to help, and gives her a map. This means deserting the village, but as Tenten rightfully thinks, it's not like they're real, no matter no realistic they are, right?

But she gets captured on the way out - turns out the merchant was working for Rain and used her as a patsy. She is still uncomfortable, paraded past the versions of her friends. Tenten realises the merchant guy must be planning something bad, but she can't warn anyone.

Lee and Neji are still, ultimately, Lee and Neji even here, and sneak in to see her in prision, saying they still believe in her. But, as they leave, Rain attacks, using summoning jutsu placed around (presumably by the merchant guy) and things go south. Menma shows up, though, saying he's been following her the whole time, but aside from her attempts to learn about genjutsu, she hasn't done anything wrong. He gives her scroll back, and says that he can;t figure her out, that she is like his Tenten, but not. He says he does believe she might not be from around here. (Which, of course, is kinda the problem.)

Hanzo the Salamander turns up - riding one - and then stuff gets bad. Tenten resolves to help. Menma squares off against Hanzo, but he summons another salamander for the flanking bonus.

But Tenten is here to save the day and digs out the ninja tools and...

FEMALE-PARENT-COPULATING ILLEGITIMATE CHILD MALE PROGENY OF A FEMALE CANINE, SHOW!!!!

You cut AWAY from Tenten saving the day?! You cut AWAY! You... YOU!

*incoherent screeching, sounds of things being demolished and explosions*



... So. We then FRACKING DAMMIT ALL TO HELL SHOW see Tenten, having saved the day being congratulatd by ner mirrior-friends, and at this point, she succumbs to the jutsu.



Was she right? Should she have stuck to her guns and damned the torpedoes, not matter what the apparent fragments of reality of her friends said? Was that act of selfless her downfall?

Well... As I say, it might not be as simple as a really convincing and smart genjutsu - there is some suggestion that there are one or more realities that THAT close to the primary, that her mind may very well have shifted to one. Is it real? Is it real enough that the echoes of reality therein have real feelings and are alive, if their world was not created in a conventional sense? Or is it all really just a really convincing illusion, no more real than a computer game character - something that convinces you it is alive, but isn't? Without actual telepathy or necromancy (or an immunity to mind-control that would allow you to use those without doing so as if in a dream), how could you tell? Er on the side of caution or not?

It's actually a very good question. At the sort of level being thrown around, it could be either - it might have just been a long, clever way of finally tricking Tenten into lowering her guard (which, if her teammates appreciated her properly, LEE, wouldn't be a deep-seated desire, because Tenten is FRACKING AWESOME) - or was it a parallel reality, and in that action that saved actual, real lives tragically left her open to the lingering effects of the genjutsu?

I honestly don't know (and I suspect, there is a 50/50 chance that the remaining dreams might not give a solid answer).


Next time, two-part Killer Bee arc, by the looks of it, which ought to be good for a laugh, if nothing else.

[LaZodiac]

Ten Ten isn't allowed to do anything.vid

[Ramza00]

Ten Ten isn't allowed to do anything.vid

Ten Ten gets all this screen time in the Anime where she is super effective, but it ends up her super effective actions do not change the reality making her ineffective towards the plot. It is the ultimate cruel joke.

Meanwhile in the Manga Ten Ten screen time is almost non existent and she gets defeated off screen. I am looking at you Naruto Manga #73.



Ten Ten vs Temari is literally 3 panels. 1 Panel where they are not shown but you hear the buzzer to start the match. A 2nd panel where Lee is surprised at the battle, saying No Way, and Neji is stating that Ten Ten's attacks are being nullified. And then suddenly the final result which I posted above.

For the most part Ten Ten is an anime creation where she exists in the manga but she does literally nothing. Ten Ten is the definition of Naruto filler.

[Traab]

Ten Ten gets all this screen time in the Anime where she is super effective, but it ends up her super effective actions do not change the reality making her ineffective towards the plot. It is the ultimate cruel joke.

Meanwhile in the Manga Ten Ten screen time is almost non existent and she gets defeated off screen. I am looking at you Naruto Manga #73.



Ten Ten vs Temari is literally 3 panels. 1 Panel where they are not shown but you hear the buzzer to start the match. A 2nd panel where Lee is surprised at the battle, saying No Way, and Neji is stating that Ten Ten's attacks are being nullified. And then suddenly the final result which I posted above.

For the most part Ten Ten is an anime creation where she exists in the manga but she does literally nothing. Ten Ten is the definition of Naruto filler.

Maybe she is called that because kishi needed one last character to fill the slots, it had to be a girl to keep the balance going and as she was the tenth.....

[LaZodiac]

I feel like Tenten is a legitimately valid Japanese name to use in a series but also her literally being called 10/10 would be ****ing hilarious.

[Traab]

I feel like Tenten is a legitimately valid Japanese name to use in a series but also her literally being called 10/10 would be ****ing hilarious.

The sad thing is you can even see how it goes.

"Ok, lets see, ive finished putting together the team of slightly more experienced rookies for the most part. Gave the sensei a crazy personality to make him memorable along with his rivalry. Now we have the two boys who are rivals in taijutsu. Now I need a girl. Hmmm. "

"Dear! Dinner!"

"Just a minute! Oh to heck with it, its not that important, she is character 10/10 and like weapons. I can always give her a real name later. Itadakimasu!"

[Aotrs Commander]

Then tragic thing is Tenten's move set is frickin' amazing and could be so, so, so overpowered (and is ridiculously cool) if she was actually allowed to do anything.

And yet, just like Jubilee (aha, fireworks are just pretty ineffective lights and they're totally not explosives made with gunpowder (if you want to ignore the fact that's not EVEN what her paff ARE) and aha, none of the other heroes ever adopted a child just because they found one, she such a loser), she is written off as a bad joke.

And, just like Jubilee, naturally, she's my favourite, which is why you can imagine I get SO HACKED OFF.

Still, at least Tenten hasn't been made not-a-ninja then vampire, so there's always that.

Why are all my favourite characters always freaking crapped on?!

*looks at Catherine Foundling*

Why are most of my favourite characters always freaking crapped on?!

[Lord Raziere]

Why are all my favourite characters always freaking crapped on?!

*looks at Catherine Foundling*

Why are most of my favourite characters always freaking crapped on?!

Aotrs, I ask that every time I look at Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals or read most books with orcs in them. there is no answer other than "because first come, first serve, and Naruto/Solar Exalted/elves were there first in the franchise, so everyone likes them better".

to use an example relevant to this series, One of my favorite characters is Konan. she does almost nothing, has one moment of awesomeness that amounts to nothing, then dies. because Sharingan users. I still like her because she has that cool paper release jutsu and has a no-nonsense attitude, and probably a great work ethic considering she built an entire fake lake out of explosive tags just to kill one dude. but she is probably never going to be relevant now and I'd be surprised if the paper release bloodline ever comes up again. why? because she is so late series in Shippuden that there is no way she would get any spot lgiht over Rookie Nine who came long before her.

its the same reason Goku always wins his fights and no one else does: he was there first, because he is the protagonist, therefore comes for him. its longevity thing, unfortunately.

[Traab]

Then tragic thing is Tenten's move set is frickin' amazing and could be so, so, so overpowered (and is ridiculously cool) if she was actually allowed to do anything.

And yet, just like Jubilee (aha, fireworks are just pretty ineffective lights and they're totally not explosives made with gunpowder (if you want to ignore the fact that's not EVEN what her paff ARE) and aha, none of the other heroes ever adopted a child just because they found one, she such a loser), she is written off as a bad joke.

And, just like Jubilee, naturally, she's my favourite, which is why you can imagine I get SO HACKED OFF.

Still, at least Tenten hasn't been made not-a-ninja then vampire, so there's always that.

Why are all my favourite characters always freaking crapped on?!

*looks at Catherine Foundling*

Why are most of my favourite characters always freaking crapped on?!

I agree, tenten has so much potential. I suppose making her all about throwing things means she couldnt exactly represent in a mountain range destroying nuke hurling competition very well but even so, total waste. Honestly most of the rookie squads have a ton of potential. Its one of the reasons why I love the third fang stories once more with a little extra help this time and its sequel. Because the guy takes everyones canon skills then cranks them up to 11. And it all makes at least semi logical sense. Tenten is admittedly probably the biggest stretch as she "just happens" to have the same gifts as a character from another series whereas everyone else is taught to emulate them or whatever, but still. Seeing choji do more than turn into a giant beach ball or kaijuu fighter, lee meshing silent homicide with his raw strength speed and skill is terrifying, using the chakra control of a hyuuga and their skills like kaiten to be able to shred people with casual ease, and shino, unholy HECKFIRE shino! He does bugs in a way that should terrify anyone with the slightest bit of sanity left to them.

[Rater202]

aha, none of the other heroes ever adopted a child just because they found one, she such a loser), she is written off as a bad joke.

Aren't like... Jubilee as a character is basically only around because wolverine has a habit of doing that about once a decade... Though eh apparently stopped after finding his actual daughter.

Anyone who seriously makes such a complaint is a god damned idiot.

Onto Tenten... Tenten's shtick is that she does the things that literally every Ninja does(Kunai and Shuriken) but... More. she uses a couple of other weapons, too, but

I can kind of understand her not getting to do cool stuff simply because she's got basically the single worst gimmick in terms of practicality--once you can reliable block or dodge kunai and shuriken, it's not that much harder to reliable block or dodge a lot of kunai and shuriken. She has melee weapons and is decently proficient in basically all weapons, but she'd probably have been better if she'd just pick one and specialize or at least learn some support techniques... I mean, excluding anime Filler and movies, none of the weapons she uses are in any way special until she get the sacred Ninja tools which she never uses in the Manga.

She's also apparently really skilled at Fuinjutsu, but she only ever uses it to make storage scrolls to keep her weapons in instead of any direct combat applications. Except in the anime, where she sometimes seals other things in storage scrolls.

to put in in MMO Terms, Tenten selected the "Weapon Master" class and proceeded to take low level abilities from all of it's tech-trees instead of specializing in one or two, leaving her under powered when she got to high level.

[Aotrs Commander]

Aren't like... Jubilee as a character is basically only around because wolverine has a habit of doing that about once a decade... Though eh apparently stopped after finding his actual daughter.

Er, no. I don't mean, like "taking a young lass under his wing as his sidekick" - which he does ALL THE TIME (Kitty, Jubes, Laura, Armor to name four off the top of my head, and I think the only reason he stopped was because he was literally dead for a bit - I mean like, legally adopting a baby.

Spoiler

Show

Very different kettle of fish between a thirteen-year old girl and a baby, actual adoption aside, even.

So, yes, Shogo is now officially Jube's kid and she has the paperwork to prove it.

Which I think is pretty damn impressive, actually (not to mention I guess that single mums now have a superhero model, too.)

Onto Tenten... Tenten's shtick is that she does the things that literally every Ninja does(Kunai and Shuriken) but... More. she uses a couple of other weapons, too, but

I can kind of understand her not getting to do cool stuff simply because she's got basically the single worst gimmick in terms of practicality--once you can reliable block or dodge kunai and shuriken, it's not that much harder to reliable block or dodge a lot of kunai and shuriken. She has melee weapons and is decently proficient in basically all weapons, but she'd probably have been better if she'd just pick one and specialize or at least learn some support techniques... I mean, excluding anime Filler and movies, none of the weapons she uses are in any way special until she get the sacred Ninja tools which she never uses in the Manga.

She's also apparently really skilled at Fuinjutsu, but she only ever uses it to make storage scrolls to keep her weapons in instead of any direct combat applications. Except in the anime, where she sometimes seals other things in storage scrolls.

to put in in MMO Terms, Tenten selected the "Weapon Master" class and proceeded to take low level abilities from all of it's tech-trees instead of specializing in one or two, leaving her under powered when she got to high level.

Dude, she's like, literally ninja Batman with his utility belt. She sealed a fraking chunk of OCEAN in there.

(She's also not "decently proficient" shes a weapons progedy on the level of Captain Kirk. To put it in Rolemaster terms, she has the Natural Weapons Master background option which lets you develop skills for a category of weapons instead one weapon, like, several times. (Narutopedia also suggests she's later on excelling at space-time jutsu.) Tenten is as much a progedy as Neji or maybe even Sakura, in her own way.)

The fact that Kishi entirely missed the point of the mythos he'd laid down himself of teamwork in favour of the Naruto and Sasuke Party (which I suppose is still a step up from the Series Protagonist Alone Party) is a crying tragedy.

[Traab]

The thing is, her stuff that was shown is easily overshadowed by the big guns. Throwing knives is what everyone has been doing from episode one. Its rarely been treated as anything serious to worry about, and by the time we reach the end of the series we have seen energy blasts capable of melting entire armories without even noticing on its path to whatever target the user is obliterating. I mean lets just take the naruto/orochimaru fight where he goes 4 tails. He basically created another VotE by going 4 tails, not too mention when he fired off that bijudama. The frick are a couple dozen kunai going to do against an enemy like that?

[Aotrs Commander]

The thing is, her stuff that was shown is easily overshadowed by the big guns. Throwing knives is what everyone has been doing from episode one. Its rarely been treated as anything serious to worry about, and by the time we reach the end of the series we have seen energy blasts capable of melting entire armories without even noticing on its path to whatever target the user is obliterating. I mean lets just take the naruto/orochimaru fight where he goes 4 tails. He basically created another VotE by going 4 tails, not too mention when he fired off that bijudama. The frick are a couple dozen kunai going to do against an enemy like that?

Easy - make it a couple of thousand. Or more. Like that train-mounted shuriken launcher from the first movie. With explosive tags. Or some new shiny tag which does something else that's worse. Or, as mentioned, half an ocean. Or lava from a volcano. Or, if you want to get all WMD, mass poison gas clouds. Bonus points for going Divinity Original Sin 2 on it and making the poison flammable. Or the first one followed by any of the latter, because while you're busy getting smug that you can deflect a load of kunai, you can't be dodging anything else.

Actually, screw all that, how's about just tons and tons of flour dispersed in a nice airbourne patten and a single light.

Or, it you want to get REALLY clever, how about you start oh, I dunno, sealing stuff while maintaining its inertia. And then Have Friends who might have, oh, I dunno, the ability to fire said energy blasts (we know from Jiriya you can seal energy from way back with Itachi and Kisame and Amaratsu) and then, say, borrow Naruto for an afternoon to seal away, I dunno, forty or fifty rasenshuriken. Or seal away that half of a building Sakura through or some boulders. (Hell, if teamwork was as big a thing as the show says it is and then ignores, Tenten can go around preparing those scrolls for easy use for all her mates. And then even Kiba stops being a joke when he can just UMD scroll a load of beast-bomb rasashurikens right into your face.)



Preparation. Like I said - you're not thinking Batman enough. Esepcially adult Tenten wiith that "excelling at space-time jutsu," whatever that specifically means. I mean, is that just sealing, or does she then know how to teleport? Because if you can't figure out a way to abuse the living hell out of that you really aren't trying.

Hell, Tenten has potentially the greatest potential for firepower than more or less any of the rest of the Konoha Twelve And Friends aside from Gaara and maybe Sakura and Temari aside from Those Two.

[Traab]

The thing is, setting up and/or explaining what the frack just happened would require even more chapters of exposition and focus on a tertiary character. Remember the scene where all the rookies showed off against the various goo creatures the ten tailed summoned? Kiba and his three headed wolf, the ino shika cho yo yo combo attack, etc? All of that was straightforward enhancement of what we already saw. We didnt need a lengthy explanation as to how the heck they did it. Geez kibas explanation was basically "I learned shadow clone too!" If tenten starts unleashing volcanoes in mid eruption, sealed jutsus by the dozen and other such things, that needs explanation as to how she pulled it off. Yes these are things that as a character it would make sense for her to learn, but we saw little to no sign of her learning said skills as they are more than just "What she did pre time skip, only more so."

[Aotrs Commander]

The thing is, setting up and/or explaining what the frack just happened would require even more chapters of exposition and focus on a tertiary character. Remember the scene where all the rookies showed off against the various goo creatures the ten tailed summoned? Kiba and his three headed wolf, the ino shika cho yo yo combo attack, etc? All of that was straightforward enhancement of what we already saw. We didnt need a lengthy explanation as to how the heck they did it. Geez kibas explanation was basically "I learned shadow clone too!" If tenten starts unleashing volcanoes in mid eruption, sealed jutsus by the dozen and other such things, that needs explanation as to how she pulled it off. Yes these are things that as a character it would make sense for her to learn, but we saw little to no sign of her learning said skills as they are more than just "What she did pre time skip, only more so."

Which is a problem of the focus being placed on Naruto and Sasuke and not the other characters - and I call bullcrap on that being bullcrap, as Naruto, Sasuke, Madara and Obito were pulling crap out of their arses; so everyone else should be allowed to do the same and frankly it makes LESS logical sense that they DON'T have a load of secret crap they've been working on.

(And the other counterpoint, I don't remember there being any necessary explanation as to why Hinata sudden could make frickin' carking great lion-fists out of nowhere in the Pain fight. Suddenly, freaking BOOM, Hinata Is Being Awesome.)

Actually - that's a bloody good point overall - why the merry heck to we NEED to see everyone Doing A Training Montage for everything they have? That's not only a pointless waste of time that isn't interesting (no, none of the long arcs with Naruto training and doing stuff over and over again while one or two random people go on about how his determination is amazing was engaging; we could have done with less of that, frankly) but it also removes any narrative impact - and delighted surprise - when Suddenly, We Remember That All Our Characters Are Frickin' Awesome.



As I say, Naruto's biggest fundemental flaw is that is goes out of its way to espouse being all about the Will of Fire and Teamwork and Friendship and then completely ignores it and only focuses on two characters in particular, two slightly less and every one else even less, despite it being at it's absolute unquestionable best when it's using all of its massive ensemble cast. (Which is partly why I stopped watching for all that period, because I realised to my depression that there was no way the main show was going to be able to top Will of Fire the movie.)

Followed closely by the need to OVER-explain everything repeatedly, with flashbacks.

[Rater202]

Dude, she's like, literally ninja Batman with his utility belt. She sealed a fraking chunk of OCEAN in there.

Only in anime filler, which I specifically excluded.

Tenten's schitck lacks substance--she throws ordinary, non-special weapons and tools at people. The only difference between her and literally any genin is that she does it more.

She doesn't even know any support techniques for her fighting style.

Being a master with throwing knives and ninja stars doesn't mean crap if everyone and their grandma knows knows how to fight someone who uses throwing knives and ninja stars.

Tenten vs Zabuza, to give a made up example, is Mister Satan with a mundane bo-staff trying to beat up Goku with his power pole. Mr. Satan's an impressive martial artists but the other guy has supernatural powers and a magic weapon.

Adult Tenten's space/time Ninjutu is apparently her summoning a Sand Village puppet, which she apparently figured out how to use, that it equipped with a gun that rapidly fires Kunai.

which is to say, Tenten got a special weapon and put in the time to learn how to use it and is therefore more effective than someone whose shtick is "what literally everyone else does but more."

[LaZodiac]

Tenten gets a bad wrap because her attacks are too lethal, I think. Kunai and shuriken and stuff are actually too permanent and deadly to make for good combat in this martial arts ninja magic series, so kunai and shuriken in general don't do anything. As a result the woman who focused on them exclusively to other talents is the weakest person in the world.

In an actual real life situation Tenten would probably be able to kill god.

[Rater202]

Another thought is that Tenten originally wanted to be like Tsunade--being a Weapon Mistress was her second choice because she didn't have the chakra control needed to be an effective medic-nin.

If she "changed majors" she might not have done the background research and that's why her idea of being a weapon mistress is to be really good at all the weapons instead of being really good at one or two high-quality weapons with a bunch of techniques that support the use of that weapon.

[Aotrs Commander]

Only in anime filler, which I specifically excluded.

And which I specifally WON'T exclude, because it is an official thing that was put out; and frankly, the series is better for it (even with the bad filler arcs). Kishimoto isn't so amazingly perfect that his work stands inviolable and can't be improved on. Or even close to that, considering for the middle part of Shippuden, the filler was MILES better than canon.

[Rater202]

And which I specifally WON'T exclude, because it is an official thing that was put out; and frankly, the series is better for it (even with the bad filler arcs). Kishimoto isn't so amazingly perfect that his work stands inviolable and can't be improved on. Or even close to that, considering for the middle part of Shippuden, the filler was MILES better than canon.

Not what I'm arguing.

But anime filler is usually done without the input of the original author.

Which, in turn, means that its place in the canon is questionable at best, assuming that the author's own material doesn't contradict it entirely.

Like the Fillar Arc in OG Naruto where Hinata pulls a technique out of her ass that basically amounts to shooting lasers at people. We can conclude by the fact that Hinata literally never does that again, not even in situations where it would have been hella useful, that this filler arc is completely non-canon.

the reason Tenten never does anything cool when it's meaningful is because all of the cool stuff she does in the anime is stuff that the anime staff made up to pad out the episode count.

[Traab]

Which is a problem of the focus being placed on Naruto and Sasuke and not the other characters - and I call bullcrap on that being bullcrap, as Naruto, Sasuke, Madara and Obito were pulling crap out of their arses; so everyone else should be allowed to do the same and frankly it makes LESS logical sense that they DON'T have a load of secret crap they've been working on.

(And the other counterpoint, I don't remember there being any necessary explanation as to why Hinata sudden could make frickin' carking great lion-fists out of nowhere in the Pain fight. Suddenly, freaking BOOM, Hinata Is Being Awesome.)

Actually - that's a bloody good point overall - why the merry heck to we NEED to see everyone Doing A Training Montage for everything they have? That's not only a pointless waste of time that isn't interesting (no, none of the long arcs with Naruto training and doing stuff over and over again while one or two random people go on about how his determination is amazing was engaging; we could have done with less of that, frankly) but it also removes any narrative impact - and delighted surprise - when Suddenly, We Remember That All Our Characters Are Frickin' Awesome.



As I say, Naruto's biggest fundemental flaw is that is goes out of its way to espouse being all about the Will of Fire and Teamwork and Friendship and then completely ignores it and only focuses on two characters in particular, two slightly less and every one else even less, despite it being at it's absolute unquestionable best when it's using all of its massive ensemble cast. (Which is partly why I stopped watching for all that period, because I realised to my depression that there was no way the main show was going to be able to top Will of Fire the movie.)

Followed closely by the need to OVER-explain everything repeatedly, with flashbacks.

I could have sworn we got a flashback training session of hinata, or maybe it was hanabi talking about her big sister where she worked on those, but I honestly dont recall. I agree with your point about flaws. To me the entire series kinda fell apart. Its earliest message of hard work and effort allowing you to change your fate, how even an orphan three time academy failing loser could become hokage if he worked at it hard enough eventually turned into ninja jesus, almost literally. He is descended from the progenitor of the ninja world, has a pedigree that is quite exalted, his holding of the 9 tails gave him so many advantages its almost sharingan levels of hax (I say almost because nothing is more hax than sharingan eyes) And bingo bango, suddenly its not about hard work at all, its that he friendship is magiced his way into near godhood and universal approval. Like you said, team work and friendship ARE still involved, but they take a decided backseat and support role rather than a direct one often enough. I think the biggest exception being the obito tug of war when they all dropped in to help. It wasnt just another "Omg, my friends need me, I cant give up" No, it was an actual "All my friends are here helping me, thats why you lose!"

Despite all that I still enjoyed the series though, I just have to ignore any messages it tries to convey and enjoy the spectacle.

[Aotrs Commander]

Not what I'm arguing.

But anime filler is usually done without the input of the original author.

Which, in turn, means that its place in the canon is questionable at best, assuming that the author's own material doesn't contradict it entirely.

Like the Fillar Arc in OG Naruto where Hinata pulls a technique out of her ass that basically amounts to shooting lasers at people. We can conclude by the fact that Hinata literally never does that again, not even in situations where it would have been hella useful, that this filler arc is completely non-canon.

the reason Tenten never does anything cool when it's meaningful is because all of the cool stuff she does in the anime is stuff that the anime staff made up to pad out the episode count.

And the point I'm making is, well, FRACK CANON and adapt to fit. You CANNOT translate one media to another directly and have it work anyway, ven something as relativcely close and manga and anime because different media is different, so you might as well take something you have and improve it, flesh it out and make it better. The "adapted/extra" thing is fundementally a poor idea that needs to be dumped, just like the dozens and dozens and dozens of other problems at all levels in the world. Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't mean it is a good or desireable idea.

Especially if it leads to an overall improvement.



I can assure you, if I was the manga writer on something as long-term like Naruto you can bet I'd be watching the anime and taking taking notes to see if they had any better ideas or better execution I could feed back into the manga later on, because there is nothing that is not above improvement and refinement. (The kind of asshat who thinks their work is completely beyond reproach is usually quite easily out-done by someone else, because they are never as good as they think they are.)

[Rater202]

And the point I'm making is, well, FRACK CANON and adapt to fit. You CANNOT translate one media to another directly and have it work anyway, ven something as relativcely close and manga and anime because different media is different, so you might as well take something you have and improve it, flesh it out and make it better. The "adapted/extra" thing is fundementally a poor idea that needs to be dumped, just like the dozens and dozens and dozens of other problems at all levels in the world. Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't mean it is a good or desireable idea.

Especially if it leads to an overall improvement.



I can assure you, if I was the manga writer on something as long-term and Naruto you can bet I'd be watching the anime and taking taking notes to see if they had any better ideas or better execution I could feed back into the manga later on, because there is nothing that is not above improvement and refinement. (The kind of asshat who thinks their work is completely beyond reproach is usually quite easily out-done by someone else, because they are never as good as they think they are.)

The whole point of Anime Pillar is because the Anime comes after the Manga.

By the time "cool thing" happens int he filler, the manga is already well past the point where that "happened" and probably past the point where it would have mattered.

the reason Tenten never does anything cool is because all of the cool stuff she did was made up for the anime because they needed some episodes to keep the story from reaching the point where the Manga ends and then having to figure out what to do next.

Filler rarely gets made canon because it often invokes plotholes--How many friends and Allies did Naruto make in filler episodes whose very existence just doesn't work because they'd have been really useful to have tagging along in one arc but the manga was already well past that point when the filler was made?

[Traab]

And the point I'm making is, well, FRACK CANON and adapt to fit. You CANNOT translate one media to another directly and have it work anyway, ven something as relativcely close and manga and anime because different media is different, so you might as well take something you have and improve it, flesh it out and make it better. The "adapted/extra" thing is fundementally a poor idea that needs to be dumped, just like the dozens and dozens and dozens of other problems at all levels in the world. Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't mean it is a good or desireable idea.

Especially if it leads to an overall improvement.



I can assure you, if I was the manga writer on something as long-term like Naruto you can bet I'd be watching the anime and taking taking notes to see if they had any better ideas or better execution I could feed back into the manga later on, because there is nothing that is not above improvement and refinement. (The kind of asshat who thinks their work is completely beyond reproach is usually quite easily out-done by someone else, because they are never as good as they think they are.)

Too be fair, using the bikochu beetle arc as an example, its not just about hinata learning to use lasers which is awesome, its that there is serious growth in the relationship between naruto and hinata that would also become canon if he used those skills. Naruto actually first sees hinata as a desirable young woman in that filler arc. (Gee, who would have thought a well developed young lady dancing naked in the water would attract attention from a hormonal teen?) If kishi didnt want him to have that realization yet, then he couldnt consider it as an arc that actually happened. A lot of the filler arcs were like that. Not just about demonstrating awesome skills that should totally be canon, but about developing the relationship between characters earlier, or in a different way than kishi was planning on.

Another was the fuuma clan arc. In that one sakura gets to see a surprisingly competent naruto proceed to whup all sorts of arse in front of her eyes pre timeskip. You can tell it changes the way she looks at naruto as a ninja as I believe its the first time she personally gets to see naruto cut loose and do well outside of his neji fight. Up till then, and even afterwards most of narutos biggest feats are offscreen as far as konoha is concerned. Let me use an example that actually happened, the naruto orochimaru fight post time skip. She KNOWS he is fighting orochimaru, but she never sees anything of the fight but the shockwaves and the very end where he was out of control and whacks her upside the head with his tail (Mind explaining why that didnt dissolve her like it did orochimaru when he tried to snake arm grab naruto?) So yeah, thats a reason why the fuuma clan arc "didnt happen" because displaying far greater skill than he had at the time aside, it would have altered his relationship with sakura in a way kishi didnt want.

Filler rarely gets made canon because it often invokes plotholes--How many friends and Allies did Naruto make in filler episodes whose very existence just doesn't work because they'd have been really useful to have tagging along in one arc but the manga was already well past that point when the filler was made?

THIS! This right here! I cant believe I didnt include that as to why filler doesnt count. Naruto would be a world famous ninja in every sense of the word with a vast web of alliances (and probably a few arranged marriages) by the time we reach the end of the series if filler counted. Again, it doesnt matter that the various ninja involved used awesome skills that by all rights should be included, because it changes the path of the storyline in a subtle but powerful way if kishi treats them as things that happened. I suppose technically he could try to just crib the attacks and state the filler arcs themselves didnt happen but the cast DID learn these skills, but thats a bit complicated and damages suspension of disbelief imo.

[Aotrs Commander]

THIS! This right here! I cant believe I didnt include that as to why filler doesnt count. Naruto would be a world famous ninja in every sense of the word with a vast web of alliances (and probably a few arranged marriages) by the time we reach the end of the series if filler counted. Again, it doesnt matter that the various ninja involved used awesome skills that by all rights should be included, because it changes the path of the storyline in a subtle but powerful way if kishi treats them as things that happened. I suppose technically he could try to just crib the attacks and state the filler arcs themselves didnt happen but the cast DID learn these skills, but thats a bit complicated and damages suspension of disbelief imo.

Filler DOES count, because it is part of the thing they are showing. You're making an adaption of something and chosing to had more to it, so yes, it counts. (If you don't want to do that, then don't add anything extra, don't add any padding and have a shorter show you can't have on all the time and not make as much money, lads. 'Cos you cna be damned sure I don't have any sympathy for you doing a slid-shod job (not that Naruto filler very often is) so you can gouge a few more pennies. You do the job right, or not at all.) It counts even if the writer of the original thing doesn't like it or hates it (in which case, he shouldn't have sold his rights off, then). If the writer is having any kind of input into it, then he himself should be actively working with the script guys to integrate it, because there is no reason AT ALL for them to have to follow by-rote the source if they can improve and expand it. (If (the metaphorical) he's the type of asshat who thinks his work is perfect, then double frack-him, because he's inevitably wrong.) If the original writer isn't helping, then the onus is on the show writers to do the job (and after ten to fifteen bloody years, they ought to damn well know how as well as anyone collectively).

Basically, "it didn't happen in the manga so it doesn't count" ITSELF doesn't count as an excuse for anything, because - guess what - I'm not reading the manga. Nor am I GOING to read the manga, to be perfectly honest, so I kind of don't give to flying fracks what does or does not happen in the manga, because that's not the bit I'm interested in. Nor do I set any stock by "but that's his artistic vision" because I don't care about "artistic vision;" I only care whether the thing is actually any good. (At the ened of the day, I don't give much of a flying frag about who wrote it and only care about authors in the sense that "this person has done good stuff previously.") And let's be clear, in Naruto especially towards the middle of Shippuden, the filler was better than a lot of the main plot. And again, Will of Fire, which was fracking the very best it's ever been.

(Look, you're talking to someone who very much enjoyed both the LotR and the Hobbit movies and especially Tauriel's inclusion in the latter, and Tolkien still stands as my favourite author. So "you didn't adapt this by-rote from the source material" doesn't mean diddly-squat to me.)



Long story short, the entire concept, no matter how popular, no matter how ingrained, no matter the reason, of "anime adaption ('canon') plus extra ('filler')" needs to go die screaming in a fire forever and I simply won't accept it as a legitimate excuse for lazy or poor writing.



YES, I know that's what they have done, but my point is the fact they HAVE is the damned problem, they shouldn't have, 'cos it's now crapper than it ought to be.

[Rater202]

You're basically asking these people to completely ignore the practices of the industry they work in--if you wait weeks at a time for their to be more manga chapters to aapt, you're not gonnabe able to competewith the people who do make noncanon stories to buy time and thus are on consistantly.

Furthermore, in Japan they take adaption seriously: The absolute most that ever gets down is taking a side-story from the manga--a back-up or an omake--and expand it out into a full episode. Maybe extend a fight scene or add a few lines of dialog.

So the Anime adaption can't change the storylines that are in the manga unless they fully decide to deviate fromthe manga completly(As happened as in Soul Eater or the first Hellsing Anime.)

To use an example from much earliar, you questioned why they couldn't use the think Kabuto did with the Gyuki's horn to get the 8-tail's chakra... The reason for that was becuase the manga was already well past the point where they needed that by the time the Anime completly made that up.