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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default That's what you did?

    Ok. Every single cell in my body (and my ranks in Knowledge (literary devices)) says that Wanda's reaction is "Oh my God, you just completely screwed us over." (Or, at best, wasted a turn.)
    On the other hand, if Parson HAS majorly booped up, he's gone. Which, since he's the protagonist, would make for a very short story. Also, Ansom's reaction seems to indicate that Parson really did make a positive difference for Gobwin Knob.
    Discuss.
    The above post made a lot more sense in my head.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    I think the reaction is more of shock that Parson was able to take down 50 siege units without losing a single unit of their own. I don't see how anyone could construe Wanda's reaction to such a battle as being negative considered they are outnumbered 25-1. To pull off such an effective offensive action against such odds without any loses is apparently something even Wanda wasn't expecting.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    The only counterargument I can countenance is one based on Wanda's motives. She summoned the Ultimate Warlord, so I don't think she wanted to lose the city. Consequently, I think she was pleased.

    Now, I don't know where Jillian fits into her plans, but I think/hope we're in for a rather fun Parson kickin a$$ ride right now, and she's of the viewpoint to enjoy that. Especially since she seems to be the one in control.

    Now... you could counter that a second competent and commanding personality in the mix could be a new one for her. But I think she'd be able to handle that, too.

    What honestly interests me at least as much, if not more, is how to read Sizemore's reaction. There's surprise, but I'm wondering if there is also concern for the welfare of the other side.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    "That's what you did?"

    The emphasis on "did" tells me that it was astonishment at his amazing accomplishment -- destroying lots of siege units -- as opposed to what he didn't do (win a lot of battles).
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Here's how I read it. The emphasis on That's suggests surprise or shock about the plan and strategy. The emphasis on did is emphasizing the use of past tense. Meaning, she's not only stunned that his plan was to wipe out the siege units, but that he managed to already do it. As in, "that's what you did", and not "that's what you'll do".

    Remember that Erfworld warlords are stuck on this idea of wins and losses to get points and (apparently) level up. To them, destroying 50 siege units would take...many, many turns, and many, many battles. Parson's accomplished all that in one morning without losing a unit.

    Yeah. I'd be pretty stunned too.
    Last edited by Sky_Schemer; 2007-06-17 at 10:12 AM.
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    I don't think the loss of expirience(or whatever warlords use to level up) is what they could be mad about, uncroaked units seem to fall appart sooner or later as Parson mentioned.

    As for the enemie's warlords getting expirience:
    1: Do they still get it they are not in the same Hex?
    2: Would it not be very little exp if they only manage to damage the enemy(and not too much at that)?

    So a positively amazed resonse seems to be the most likely solution..
    Last edited by Yenkaz; 2007-06-17 at 10:36 AM.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    as everyone else pointed out, yes, she is in awe to how epicly great parson plan was. Come on, 50 units in one turn with no losses is impressive in any kind of game.

    edit: remember, wanda knew parson had a plan but not what it consisted on
    Last edited by PePe QuiCoSE; 2007-06-17 at 10:36 AM.
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Astonishment at the amazing victory is certainly explanation enough to satisfy me.

    Still, I can't rule out the possibility that a siege was an important part of Wanda's plans.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Hammer View Post
    Astonishment at the amazing victory is certainly explanation enough to satisfy me.

    Still, I can't rule out the possibility that a siege was an important part of Wanda's plans.
    Wanda's plans are still fairly inscrutable, but we can be pretty confident that she does want to win this battle -- if not, she could have said "OK, sure, promote the next sucker to Chief Warlord".

    Ansom having to switch gears might run at cross-purposes to her plans for Jillian ("sleeper agent" mental suggestions, perhaps), however.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    I think it is obvious that Parson's action was a success, though through unusual tactics. Just remember Ansom's reaction ("grasp") when he got the unit reports....

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    I actually thought of Wanda's reaction as neither anger nor elation. More as just plain confusion. I got the impression that most of the leaders in Erfworld are more concerned with unit strength than most special abilities. That is to say, a surgical strike against weaker, support-type units would never have even *occurred* to either the Tool or Wanda. Just as it didn't occur to Ansom. (By the way, what happened to Vinnie that he's such a think-outside-the-box type of guy?)

    I don't have any evidence from earlier comics to support this theory (and won't look...too lazy), just an overall impression of the characters themselves. Everyone else has been amateurs on this playing field. Very straight-forward. A new chess player will never understand that sometimes taking a pawn is more important than taking a bishop, and thus will never consider it. A master, will. And the amateur will never see it coming until it has already happened.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckALF View Post
    I actually thought of Wanda's reaction as neither anger nor elation. More as just plain confusion.
    That's what i'm kinda thinking now... it's not that she think's Parson screwed up as some others think, but that she is really skepticle of Parson's success. She just can't believe that he could do so much damage without loss

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckALF View Post
    By the way, what happened to Vinnie that he's such a think-outside-the-box type of guy?
    Its not that he's an out of the box thinker its that really doubts that something can be that good, it was in fact too good to be true...

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerHunter View Post
    Ok. Every single cell in my body (and my ranks in Knowledge (literary devices)) says that Wanda's reaction is "Oh my God, you just completely screwed us over." (Or, at best, wasted a turn.)
    This is the sort of question that makes me wonder what it is about this story that makes people immediately jump to the most tortured, backwards, unexpected, non-obvious, opposite-of-common-sense conclusions?

    Look, there's a simple test here. Explain how exactly it is GOOD for the attackers to have their seige engines destroyed, and BAD for the defenders. You can't do it. Afterwards, explain why, if it was BAD for Stanley's side to have them destroyed, Ansom's side didn't destroy them themselves.

    It just makes absolutely no freaking sense, and half a second's thought should make that absolutely clear.

    She wasn't expecting him to do so well. Just like Ansom wasn't expecting to get hurt so bad. Until there is actual hard, specific evidence to the contrary - as opposed to "I feel this to be true" - there is absolutely no point in looking beyond the simple interpretation.

    PARTICULARLY when, from any military or wargaming standpoint, the interpretation you are suggesting would be flatly impossible to make work with the actual situation and outcome. You aren't thinking about this, and are trying too hard to read more into it than what is there. It's a waste of your time. Enjoy the story for what it is.
    Last edited by Rollory; 2007-06-17 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckALF View Post
    By the way, what happened to Vinnie that he's such a think-outside-the-box type of guy?
    Probably either Rob's or Jamie's idea of a joke.

    I mean, Ansom's only man capable of thinking outside the box sleeps inside of a box. (So naturally if he does his thinking while he's awake...)
    Last edited by Bilgore; 2007-06-17 at 03:27 PM.
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    There is still much that Parson (and us fans) don't know about the mechanics of Erfworld, or the current plans for the defense of Gobwin Knob. By withdrawing he loses the battle to win the war. But what side-effects does that have in the meantime? Will Ansom's side receive more gold/resources for their "victories"? Will not levelling the warlords come back to haunt Lord Hamster? The siege equipment was slowing down the approach of the column. It may be now that they will get to the city too soon for other plans (set in place by Wanda/Stanley) to come into fruition.
    Sometimes the best of intentions leads to bad side effects.

    Whats got me on the edge of my seat right now isn't the siege. That was only the first part of the move. What else did Lord Hamster manage to do on this turn?
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    I could see Wanda being unhappy at his results if (1) he wiped out all of Ansom's siege engines (after the opener of taking out 50, maybe with the first dwagon stack), (2) this makes it likely that the Alliance will be demoralized and fall apart, and (3) Wanda wants some Alliance members defeated at Gobwin Knob. For example, I think Stanley would be unhappy if Ansom were to leave without delivering the Arkenpliars, and Wanda may have something in mind for Jillian and/or Ansom personally.

    But I think at this point it's just surprise or disbelief (the line is delivered before he actually says he did it, remember). She's probably expecting "Well, not yet. But next turn I should be able to if Ansom falls for my trap" not "Yes, and I also took out a bunch of cloth golems, and then I did it 3 more times, and now Ansom is going to feed his flying units to our fresh dwagon stacks. Want me to capture Jillian again, or croak her this time?"

    It's also possible that they think that he's left the damaged dwagon stacks somewhere that the marbits in the column can finish them off or at least the flying units can get them, since they wouldn't have enough movement to get back to the safety of Gobwin Knob and must have taken significant damage from archers. After all, avoiding that issue is half of the plan as given in the klog, and he hasn't told them about that yet. Novice strategy gamers often manage turns in which they cause extensive damage (by min-maxing the battles they get into) but leave their units exposed for the enemy's ideal battles the next turn, and I doubt Wanda's seen anything better than that level of strategy.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by iabervon View Post
    "Yes, and I also took out a bunch of cloth golems, and then I did it 3 more times, and now Ansom is going to feed his flying units to our fresh dwagon stacks. Want me to capture Jillian again, or croak her this time?"

    LOL! Parson is TEH AWESOME, but I don't think he's quite that good. Maybe in a few more turns.... :D


    It's also possible that they think that he's left the damaged dwagon stacks somewhere that the marbits in the column can finish them off or at least the flying units can get them, since they wouldn't have enough movement to get back to the safety of Gobwin Knob and must have taken significant damage from archers.

    Now, that's also possible. The 'Death Star' is a very nice exploit in itself, which makes the "heal every morning to full" and "swapping warlords" tricks much more potent.



    After all, avoiding that issue is half of the plan as given in the klog, and he hasn't told them about that yet. Novice strategy gamers often manage turns in which they cause extensive damage (by min-maxing the battles they get into) but leave their units exposed for the enemy's ideal battles the next turn, and I doubt Wanda's seen anything better than that level of strategy.
    Quite possible.... If that's the case, man, they're all in for a HUGE shock. :D
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by iabervon View Post
    She's probably expecting "Well, not yet. But next turn I should be able to if Ansom falls for my trap"
    It's a good thing that wasn't what he had to say -- remember, Stanley is displeased with him because his* previous plan didn't work when Ansom didn't walk into the trap. He'd be lucky to just get demoted rather than disbanded on the spot.

    *It may have actually been Wanda's plan, but Parson got the "credit" for it.

    It's also possible that they think that he's left the damaged dwagon stacks somewhere that the marbits in the column can finish them off or at least the flying units can get them, since they wouldn't have enough movement to get back to the safety of Gobwin Knob and must have taken significant damage from archers. After all, avoiding that issue is half of the plan as given in the klog, and he hasn't told them about that yet. Novice strategy gamers often manage turns in which they cause extensive damage (by min-maxing the battles they get into) but leave their units exposed for the enemy's ideal battles the next turn, and I doubt Wanda's seen anything better than that level of strategy.
    If, as I suspect, the "for openers" refers to his expectation that Ansom will walk into a meat grinder of fresh dwagons by trying to chase down the wounded ones, they'll realize soon enough that that won't be an issue -- if Ansom takes the bait, his forces will get further damaged; if he doesn't, the wounded dwagons will have a guaranteed safe chance to heal.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Tool and Wanda simply never considered retreating from a rattle after dealing damage as a viable tactic. In Erfworld, it just isn't done; which is why it took Vinny some time to even come up with that as a scenario where Ansom's forces winning every battle made sense.

    Happiness or unhappiness hasn't set in yet; we're seeing shock and disbelief. To use a D&D analogy, it is the equivalent of witnessing a game-breaking feat combo comprised of something previously considered useless.
    Last edited by CNagy; 2007-06-17 at 05:26 PM.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    Tool and Wanda simply never considered retreating from a rattle after dealing damage as a viable tactic. In Erfworld, it just isn't done; which is why it took Vinny some time to even come up with that as a scenario where Ansom's forces winning every battle made sense.

    Happiness or unhappiness hasn't set in yet; we're seeing shock and disbelief. To use a D&D analogy, it is the equivalent of witnessing a game-breaking feat combo comprised of something previously considered useless.
    Like if a Monk managed to defeat... well anything, using the <Toughness> feat.
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Wanda isn't the sort of person who could process what 'Ultimate Warlord' actually means. Sure, she's smart, but she's focused on her own interests.

    I'm sure she expected him to do something reasonably clever and competent from a strategic standpoint, but I doubt she expected him to turn yesterday's "disaster" into such a stunning triumph.

    I'm really hoping Parson will pull out the "the trick of winning is to not seek one path to victory, but to make sure all paths can lead to victory" line that Cavillo used on Miles in The Vor Game.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerHunter View Post
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Well, I can actually think of a scenario that would make destroying the siege towers a bad thing.

    when ansom was describing the battle plan he stated that travel time would be several turns due to the slow move of the siege engines.

    also keep in mind that there were troops out in the open on stanleys side, like that twoll and some skellies.

    it could be that stanley needs time to consolidate any last few troops that are a field and now this faster attacking armor will get there before the dispatched troops return to gobwin nob, but i don't think the lost siege engines were worth this added maneuverability, primarily because their enemy is completely stationary. an attacking army only has to be more maneuverable than his opponent. which in this case could be accomplished with a turtle.

    Of course parson's gone onto offense with this same fact in mind, his dwagons are considerably swifter than the siege towers.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    If, as I suspect, the "for openers" refers to his expectation that Ansom will walk into a meat grinder of fresh dwagons by trying to chase down the wounded ones, they'll realize soon enough that that won't be an issue -- if Ansom takes the bait, his forces will get further damaged; if he doesn't, the wounded dwagons will have a guaranteed safe chance to heal.
    Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with this completely. I'm thinking Parson is counting on Ansom with all his pride and arrogance to walk right into a trap. I was wondering why Parson set up that ring of dragon stacks like that. :)

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilgore View Post
    Ansom's only man capable of thinking outside the box sleeps inside of a box. (So naturally if he does his thinking while he's awake...)
    Brilliant. I can't believe I didn't catch that.
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Parson has taken advantage of the following things:

    a) Realtime command control and intelligence on the battlefield for his side, versus limited command, control, and intelligence on the other side.
    b) Using warlords to control combats (selective targeting of enemy units, ability to break off combat).
    c) Using restricted terrain and special unit capabilities to prevent an effective counterattack on his weakened A-dwagons.

    If I had to guess (and I do), and if Parson has managed to wipe out the siege units already, his next stunt will be to wipe out the weaker warlords in the column using the A-dwagons and wipe out enemy scouts using the B-dwagons, withdrawing the dwagons to Gobwin Knob at the end of the turn. This would wipe out Anson's already limited recon and reduce Anson's ability to control the column. That would improve Parson's ability to stage ambushes and to force Anson to fight battles at unfavorable odds in the future. In essense, he takes two of the advantages that he already has exploited and increases his edge in those areas.

    There is also the potential foreshadowing from earlier that Parson is considering how to force Anson to make the main effort underground. If he wipes out the siege engines and if he can obtain air superiority (perhaps through ambushes of air units), then Anson will be forced to make the underground diversion into the main effort. My impression is that Gobwin's Knob's underground defenses may actually be stronger than the aboveground ones ... particularly because it will be so hard to have accurate intelligence of them and because Jillian can be used to pass false information about them (she can "remember" incorrect details about her escape, for instance).

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by talse View Post
    Well, I can actually think of a scenario that would make destroying the siege towers a bad thing.

    when ansom was describing the battle plan he stated that travel time would be several turns due to the slow move of the siege engines.

    also keep in mind that there were troops out in the open on stanleys side, like that twoll and some skellies.

    it could be that stanley needs time to consolidate any last few troops that are a field and now this faster attacking armor will get there before the dispatched troops return to gobwin nob, but i don't think the lost siege engines were worth this added maneuverability, primarily because their enemy is completely stationary. an attacking army only has to be more maneuverable than his opponent. which in this case could be accomplished with a turtle.

    Of course parson's gone onto offense with this same fact in mind, his dwagons are considerably swifter than the siege towers.
    I don't think that Parson destroyed all the siege units.

    1) Parsons says he destroyed 50 siege units and not all the siege units. It would have had even more imact on Wanda and Stanley so if he had destroyed all the siege units he would've surely told them.

    2) The attack/raid had to be done fast to avoid getting drown in to a prolongued fight the dwagons couldn't win without casaulties. This means that some siege units were probably left alone as the risk of being overwhelmed by units that come to help would be to big. (this argument may be untrue if a selective attack means that only the attacked unit/stack can defend itself which I doubt as archers were shown firing on the dwagons. Besides, what's the logic about aircover if it can be avoided so easily.)

    3) The original plan talked about dwagons croaking some siege units and on their way back. This would mean that stacks of siege units are dispersed among the column. this would probably even further mean that not every stack of siege units can be reached in 3 attacks.
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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy View Post
    Tool and Wanda simply never considered retreating from a rattle after dealing damage as a viable tactic. In Erfworld, it just isn't done; which is why it took Vinny some time to even come up with that as a scenario where Ansom's forces winning every battle made sense.

    Happiness or unhappiness hasn't set in yet; we're seeing shock and disbelief. To use a D&D analogy, it is the equivalent of witnessing a game-breaking feat combo comprised of something previously considered useless.
    Exactly. Wanda's "That's what you did?" is shock at something that isn't possible by playing inside the rules. The whole point of summoning Parson was to bring in someone from outside the box who can manipulate the world.

    Just to clarify, by 'the whole point', I don't mean that that is what Stanley or Wanda intended to do, I meant that is the point of the authors in introducing the character of Parson.

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    Default Re: That's what you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thayus View Post
    Wanda isn't the sort of person who could process what 'Ultimate Warlord' actually means. Sure, she's smart, but she's focused on her own interests.
    But she's the one who found him, remember? She specifically said, when Stanley was going through his enormous list of requirements, "I was looking for a mind!". That means she must have had a reasonable idea of what kind of mind she was looking for, and therefore she must know what an Ultimate Warlord IS. What she didn't realise is just how unconventional the tactics of an ultimate warlord can be...

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