That's what you did?

[Freederick]

I think "That's what you did?" coupled with that dismayed expression signifies that Wanda expected Parson to do something completely different... specifically, attack the advance group. This impression is strengthened by Jillian's eagerness to be out of there before the boop hits the fan. After all, Jillian's probable reason for insisting on abandoning Webinar must have had something to do with Wanda's suggestions.

Now, Wanda is surprised that this attack did not take place, that Parson in fact did something completely different. Her dismay may be due to the fact that she suggested to Jillian to move to the column to be out of harm's way--but now it is the booping column that has gotten hosed. So, in effect, rather than shielding Jillian, she sent her from the pan into the fire.

Yet, in the face of Parson's whooparse success, there's no way she can criticize his choices now without letting on that she has a hidden agenda.

What is Wanda's angle? I'd give half a million schmuckers to know.

[Caledonian]

(By the way, what happened to Vinnie that he's such a think-outside-the-box type of guy?)

He has a very high Wisdom score. Or whatever the equivalent stat. is in Erfworld - possibly Imagination and Awareness.

[SteveMB]

I think "That's what you did?" coupled with that dismayed expression signifies that Wanda expected Parson to do something completely different... specifically, attack the advance group. This impression is strengthened by Jillian's eagerness to be out of there before the boop hits the fan. After all, Jillian's probable reason for insisting on abandoning Webinar must have had something to do with Wanda's suggestions.

Now, Wanda is surprised that this attack did not take place, that Parson in fact did something completely different. Her dismay may be due to the fact that she suggested to Jillian to move to the column to be out of harm's way--but now it is the booping column that has gotten hosed. So, in effect, rather than shielding Jillian, she sent her from the pan into the fire.

What is Wanda's angle? I'd give half a million schmuckers to know.

Wanda already knows that the original plan to ambush the forward group fell through when 1)Ansom didn't take the bait and 2)the summoning of the Archons raised the risk of attacking the forward group.

That said, you may be on to something -- Parson's raids on the column, and the possible result of Ansom changing his plan (to make the main assault through the tunnels?) might work at cross-purposes to any suggestions Wanda might have given Jillian based on the original plan (to ambush the forward group).

However, if Wanda is concerned with protecting Jillian (for any of several reasons), it should be simple enough to have the Eyemancers focus in on the "escaped" prisooner's location, which will show that she's still with the forward group.

[rosebud]

Wanda expected Parson to do something completely different... specifically, attack the advance group.

Wow, the first suggestion that actually makes sense. =) If that is the case, she would find out rather quickly that he only hit battle bears and siege equipment, though. So long as Jillian doesn't act stupid, she'll be okay. (If she goes on attack, she does have a decent chance of getting croaked or captured again.)

[Freederick]

Wanda already knows that the original plan to ambush the forward group fell through when 1)Ansom didn't take the bait and 2)the summoning of the Archons raised the risk of attacking the forward group.

She probably still thought Parson's plan (that she didn't care to hear the details of--hint, hint!) had to do with the flier group. And she obviously hadn't had an opportunity to examine the battle display yet.

[teratorn]

Her dismay may be due to the fact that she suggested to Jillian to move to the column to be out of harm's way--but now it is the booping column that has gotten hosed.

I'm a bit lost here. On stanley's turn Wanda takes Jillian close to her group, and dwagons move to the vicinity of Webinar and Dora. On Ansom's turn, flying units, archons and Jillian reach Webinar and Dora.

Parson's attack on the column should have been the attack turn on Webinar and Dora if Ansom was there. Jillian had no time to leave the advanced group.

[Ganurath]

He has a very high Wisdom score. Or whatever the equivalent stat. is in Erfworld - possibly Imagination and Awareness.

More like Cynicism.

I just realized I saw this strategy in a movie about a Roman slave rebellion in the rebels' first open battle. The legion opened up with skirmisher volleys assailing the rebels outside the woods, who quickly withdrew within after getting off a volley of their own. The legions sent their soldiers toward the rebels in the woods in turtle formation. Using large logs or lone riders, the rebels broke up the formation to get some hits in and disrupt the enemy before the overwhelming majority of the rebel troops hiding in the woods charged in for the kill.

[PlasticSoldier]

That battle was in spartacus or something it was awesome.

[Freederick]

What is Wanda's angle? I'd give half a million schmuckers to know.

I've got a theory on why Wanda might be protective of Jillian.

Wanda knows (or at least she did before Parson started winning) that Stanley's days are numbered. She's privately cultivating Jillian, an independent operator on the other side (and royalty, too), so she has somewhere to run when boop hits the fan. Wanda's too smart not to make contingency plans. Becoming Jillian's follower/advisor/girlfriend* after Stanley buys the farm is certainly preferable to being tried for war crimes, or whatever it is that Erfworlders do to captured enemy croakamancers. Heck, being Jillian's minion might even be preferable to being Stanley's--she can manipulate her as well if not better, and probably enjoy it more; although her ambitions may have to be put on the back burner for a while.

If that is correct--and it certainly fits Wanda's style--then Wanda would understandably be concerned about Jillian's survival. She would also be very careful not to let Stanley catch on--hence the Mung incident.
_____________________________________
*pick your preference.

.

[Rufus]

A probable reason for Wanda being upset is that Parson was not politically sly in the way that he did things: Rather than conferring with Stanley, he took initiative, and acted unilaterally.

Wanda just got finished massaging Stanley for the lookamancer gaffe, and now Parson's gone and done something politically stupid *again* - even after she provided explanation of how to manipulate Stanley.

[SteveMB]

I'm a bit lost here. On stanley's turn Wanda takes Jillian close to her group, and dwagons move to the vicinity of Webinar and Dora. On Ansom's turn, flying units, archons and Jillian reach Webinar and Dora.

Parson's attack on the column should have been the attack turn on Webinar and Dora if Ansom was there. Jillian had no time to leave the advanced group.

Hmmm... perhaps Jillian was supposed to start back the same turn the flyers met them (using the remaining Move of the faster flyers). If so, that didn't happen for whatever reason (no flyers with Move left?). Alternatively, the ambush might have been originally planned for the following turn (for some plausible tactical reason).

A probable reason for Wanda being upset is that Parson was not politically sly in the way that he did things: Rather than conferring with Stanley, he took initiative, and acted unilaterally.

Wanda just got finished massaging Stanley for the lookamancer gaffe, and now Parson's gone and done something politically stupid *again* - even after she provided explanation of how to manipulate Stanley.

Huh? Wanda specifically told Parson to put his plan into action the moment their turn began, precisely so that he could rack up a (presumed) success while Stanley was kept too busy to interfere and before he found out about Parson messing with the Eyemancer setup.

(Actually, it looks like the Eyemancer setup functioned normally during Parson's raids on the column, implying that his conversation with Misty had no effect. If so, Stanley will presumably never find out unless some subtle problem crops up later or Wanda rats him out for some reason.)

[teratorn]

Huh? Wanda specifically told Parson to put his plan into action the moment their turn began, precisely so that he could rack up a (presumed) success while Stanley was kept too busy to interfere and before he found out about Parson messing with the Eyemancer setup.

Yes, I think she was warning him not to implicate her on the thing. The Tool wouldn't be too happy to learn that whatever she did was just to give time to Parson to achieve this.

[Yenkaz]

Stanley might also have objected to the plan for serveral reasons, he might be concerned about warlords not getting exp, or not realise how effective the strategy would be.

In other words, the best move Wanda could make, was to show how effective whatever Parson was planning could be, so that Stanley wouldn't be so sceptical about it next time.

[Scientivore]

Yes, I think she was warning him not to implicate her on the thing. The Tool wouldn't be too happy to learn that whatever she did was just to give time to Parson to achieve this.

Oh, that makes sense.

[Aquillion]

I think she was just warning him that this (acting without Stanley's approval) was likely to be a bone of contention (especially given how bluntly he came forward with his initial "we already did it".) Notice how Parson immediately assumes a deferential pose and tone.

She might also have been warning him that Stanley was planning on getting rid of him already ("A chief warlord I was about to send into-"), so if he had anything good to say, he needed to say it fast.

Also, her concerns over Jillian wouldn't necessarily be just for Jillian's well-being. Remember, Jillian is one of the best flying units on Ansom's side (possibly the best, depending on how she compares to the angels.) She attacked five dwagons practically on her own and showed every expectation of winning. If Wanda arranged for her to be back with the column, that could cause serious problems for Parson's plan.

[Runolfr]

Actually, Parson realized a "whole new dimension" to his plan based on the weakness of Ansom's reconnaissance. I suspect that whatever else he did this turn is a further exploit of Ansom's limited intelligence-gathering resources. I suspect he has set up some kind of "disinformation" source for Ansom to find that will either lead him into a trap or destroy even more of his scouts.

[CNagy]

I think "That's what you did?" coupled with that dismayed expression signifies that Wanda expected Parson to do something completely different... specifically, attack the advance group.

If it had been integral to Wanda's designs, she would have at least let Parson get partway into describing his plan to her before feigning disinterest. It is safe to say that her plans have to be able to work regardless of Parson's competence (or supposed incompetence) in directing battle; otherwise she is just leaving a whole lot to chance and that doesn't seem like Wanda's character at all.

Whatever feelings Wanda has for Jillian, pragmatically she knows that Jillian is safe so long as the barbarian doesn't do anything stupid: Ansom loves her, and Parson has been told that Wanda owns her and has her under thrall. Parson, Dark Lord of the Hampster, isn't about to target a unit that may have use to Wanda (and thus, to Gobwin Knob.)

I stand by the idea that Tool and Wanda are dumbfounded, and that the reaction goes no deeper than that. Ansom's entire crew didn't understand the riddle of how winning every engagement could be bad (with Vinny only figuring it out after the fact.) Parson presented Tool and Wanda with what to them seemed a paradox: by losing a bunch of battles, they have won a significant advantage. And then he compounded that confusion by telling them just how significant an advantage was won.

This may eventually fit into Wanda's schemes, as she suddenly realizes what a useful tool Parson is. We may even see her take some small interest in battle planning, now that she realizes that she can figure battles into her intrigues without having to assume they will be losing battles. Tool may have a hard time wrapping his mind around Parson's tactics, but he seems like a numbers guy; as long as Parson phrases things in a way he can understand (we killed this, lost nothing) and includes him when possible, the volatile little leader isn't likely to take issue with him or disband him.

[Hankosha]

Alright - Let's look at what Parson did.
1. He killed 50 siege units.
2. He didn't lose a single unit.

1.Killing 50 Siege units.
Ok. By killing 50 siege units, Parson completely annihilates or at least slows, Ansom's invasion schedule.
As well, it changes how Ansom's going to think. Ansom will be forced to put his archer units and siege unit stacks together in order that they not be destroyed, allowing Parson to continually hit and run on Ansom's units.

Parson also forces Ansom into paranoia. He knows attacks will come every turn, but he doesn't know what will be hit, and from which direction. This will force him to either clump his troops into massive stacks, or spread his archer and flying units so thinly that they'll be useless.

2. Parson didn't lose a single unit.
This may not seem like a major thing, but it is. Ansom, having no number count or eyemancers, can't tell how many units are going to hit him. He has to rely on scouts, whose information may or may not be accurate. As well, because of his not losing a single unit, Parson can repeat his blitzkrieg / Guerrilla tactics. Parson also left himself with the advantage that by not losing any of his dragons, he can send them around to behind the column and attack from different directions, giving himself a mobility previously unseen in Erfworld.

As such, Stanly and Wanda don't completely understand the scope of what Parson did.

[Pastafarian]

I'm figuring that the ring of dwagons is how Parson will take advantage of Ansom's limited intelligence (in both senses ). Ansom gets raided by a bunch of Dwagons. He knows that some of them were probably hurt pretty badly, but that they will heal back up at the end of the turn. So, the obvious course of action is to try to chase down the remaining dwagons and finish off the injured ones. He sends his flyers (or whatever) in the direction they went, and lo and behold, he sees a stack of dwagons (but not the other stacks behind them). Thinking they must be the injured A dwagons, he attacks, only to have the attackers crushed by the fresh B dwagons.

EDIT: It turns out, this idea was just suggested in the "After the opener" thread, but with more supporting evidence.

[Tachikoma]

This thread drove me to join your forums. That’s right, it’s YOUR fault! (points finger menacingly at all previous posters.) (Sigh) Moving on…

Have ANY of you had a major political scheme at work before? Put yourself in Wanda’s role from a by-the-water-cooler point of view. And remember—she just wants to stay in the game: Alive and employed.

Wanda has an incompetent superior (lost 10 cities in succession.) More than that, he is a vengeful competent superior with no regard for underlings. We don’t know exactly how, but she has worked herself into a favored position with him (note that she has NOT been made part of the thinkamancer mental mush.) So far, working Stanley has been her ticket to survival. (remember her advice to Parson in #43.)

But if Stanly loses the capital, she loses.

Stanley has put Gobwin knob on the path to destruction that would have continued without intervention. She was correct in the need: Tactics. She was able to pull enough weight to get Parson into the mix, but she has to keep him alive long enough to turn the battle. If she fails at that, and Stanley disbands him, Gobwin Knob (and Wanda) lose. The only winning scenario, in relation to her action, involves keeping Parson alive to do exactly that, so the details are inconsequential. THAT’S why she cuts him off in #47. She believes that Parson can win this battle, not because of understanding, but because she has no alternative.

It’s not until a handful of turns before utter destruction that she suggests the spell that results in Parson’s “PLOT” into their world. Judging by context, you can guess from #5 that she has never refused an order before. Parson’s very existence is a huge gamble—but not a total gamble. If he were to go bad for whatever reason, that would not kill her politically. In #48, Stanley was unhappy, but not directly at her.

I don’t know how much in the way of tactics Wanda knows, but it doesn’t matter. Any layman would know that destroying that much of the enemy’s infrastructure with zero casualties is very good, though maybe not how much. What she does know is Stanley. He wont understand what Parson has done, or why. Psychologically, I don’t think he could allow someone else to step in like this and do what he couldn’t so very easily, even if he had the wit. And the fact—the technicality—that Parson lost each battle is an easy scapegoat. He’ll want to disband him immediately.

And SHE was covering for him.

Wanda speak:
“THAT’S what you DID?”

Us speak:
“Holy boop, what have I gotten myself into?”

Don’t worry, though. Wanda’s smart, and I bet the wheels are already turning.

[nooblade]

I also think that Wanda isn't entirely pleased, but for different reasons. She made a huge sacrifice to keep Stanley happy, and the Parson might've actually screwed things up--not with the battle but with the politics at home.

Remember Wanda's advice after losing with the Jillian gamble, ~~"make Stanley think that he came up with the plan," not exactly her words but basically. Parson has clearly gone around his Overlord's jurisdiction by operating independently. Stanley, who became an Overlord by regicide, might take it as a move against his rule personally and seek to punish or disband Parson, though for different reasons than what happened before Wanda dealt with him. Stanley needs to be in control of all the situations related to his units, even though Parson performed superbly, Stanley would have still wanted to be there to perform minute actions that would've slightly boosted his score or things like that.

I don't think that he's going to be in much trouble; Wanda and Stanley's emotions looked like a mix of things to me. But Parson isn't all good yet, he still needs to work on dealing with Stanley. I think that Parson isn't about to suddenly take over command and win the rest of the battle without Stanley trying to re-assert the control over the situation.

[Tachikoma]

Parson has clearly gone around his Overlord's jurisdiction by operating independently.

Wanda knew that he would. In fact, she told him too. (#47 frames 12 and 13.) If Parson had gotten into a debate with Stanley about ANY plan of his, it would have never been approved. This way Parson (and Wanda) already have the results and can say "This is why things had to be done this way." (with Wanda's censorship and mediation, of course.)

I don't think Wanda is pleased or displeased yet. Her focus is Stanley and his likely reaction to losing every battle, in spite of how devistating it may or may not have been to the enemy.

[Moik]

I like the displays of intuitive thinking in this thread.

I agree that Wanda's statement doesn't have a phrasing which is commonly used to display being impressed with a performance quantity. I'm not sold on some of the posted theories yet.

One question I have is this; would siege units be contructs which are not uncroakable, and could Wanda simply be disappointed at a lack of croaking?

[Doshi]

I think Wanda is hardly even thinking about the conflict with Anson in this comic; she's entirely focused on preventing Stanley from doing somethng counterproductive. Consider what's happened from Wanda's point of view. Wanda knew that Parson was in trouble with Stanley after the initial plan to ambush Anson had to be dropped. Then she found out that Parson had been tampering with the eyemancers. She knew if and when Stanley learned that, he'd be utterly furious. And she's afraid Stanley would normally learn what's wrong very soon, because he's going to be coming to the eyemancer room very soon to start the next turn. Then Parson tells her that he does have a plan he's confident will work.

But Wanda doesn't ask the details of this plan, because she knows she doesn't have time to waste learning the details of the plan. If she doesn't act soon, Stanley will arrive, learn that Parson has meddled with the Eyemancers, and then disband Parson. And if that happens, it won't matter how brilliant Parson's plan was, because it will never be impliemented. So Wanda tells Parson to use his plan the moment the next turn starts, and then rushes to her apartment to change her outfit to something better suited to the task of delaying Stanley.

Wanda manages to keep Stanley busy for a long time. Stanley is in a better mood by the time he finally gets to the eyemancer room, but Wanda is still very aware of how quickly he could become angry with Parson. The risk that he will disband Parson is very real.

Parson responds to Stanley's question about what they are doing in this round by telling Stanley that they have already done it. I don't think Wanda is impressed by this opening on Parson's part. I suspect she'd have been happier if Parson had said something like. "We've had a great success, my Tool", or better still, "I've used the insights you have given me, Great Tool, to achieve a great victory!" So she taps Parson's arm, and tries to warn him to be more careful how he handles Stanley. Parson tries to be more careful, but from Wanda's perspective, he still has much to learn about the fine art of handling Stanley.

For example, I suspect that Wanda knows you should not say important things to Stanley in a way that he can find unclear or ambiguous. When Parson asked his question about whether Stanley would like to see fifty of Anson's seige units destroyed, he said it in a way that left it a little unclear whether he's already accomplished this feat or not. I think Wanda was concerned that Stanley wouldn't understand that Parson had already destroyed the fifty seige units, and that the reason why she asked, "That's what you did?" was to urge Parson to describe his accomplishment in a more explicit way Stanley could more easily understand.

[Gdrad]

Id like to point something out to folks that are saying stuff like "Well maybe theres some units that won't make it into gobwin knob before the caravan rolls em over". Paron's a gamer, long time one. Hes learned how to check a characters movement, figure out how far that is, and how to work the table. He has the table. See where Im going here? It is highly _unlikely_ that Parson didn't see any units of his milling about and take them into account. Further if wanda/stanly had any plans hatching they'd of likely mentioned them. There is no reason for them not to.

The chances of Parson missing a unit on the field using the table, is even less so if their color coordinated or if the table has any other indicators for your units.

[Scientivore]

This thread drove me to join your forums. That’s right, it’s YOUR fault! (points finger menacingly at all previous posters.)

Excellent. *steeples fingers* My plan proceeds apace.

I mean, welcome!

[Gdrad]

Actually, Parson realized a "whole new dimension" to his plan based on the weakness of Ansom's reconnaissance. I suspect that whatever else he did this turn is a further exploit of Ansom's limited intelligence-gathering resources. I suspect he has set up some kind of "disinformation" source for Ansom to find that will either lead him into a trap or destroy even more of his scouts.

Its basically confirmed that Ansom doesn't know about the tree dwagons. At all. Vinnie only saw the warlord group. Thats it. Thats the only dwagon group ansom knows about. Thats a pretty potent dimension IMO. Not to mention the additional safty netted by fog of war. Those dwagons that ansom does know about, may not be within his field of knowledge anymore. He has no idea where they went, and thus can't attack them effeciently.

Being able to exploit fog of war can be _huge_. As an aside I highly advise playing advanced wars if you ever get the chance. In one gameplay mode you fight in fog of war, and can totally siege enemies from no where. It makes it really hard to find and kill artillery hiding in trees. (You need to locate them by placing a unit next to them. but placing the unit uses up all its actions so you can't attack!)

::EDIT:: Another good game example is red alert 2. That bloody fog of war generator. Not so useful against the computer. Great against an enemy player. See in that game fog is removed permenatly from an area when you explore it. It doesn't return once the unit moves out of sight of the area. Further the allies can toss up a radar scan that reveals the whole map, and random spawn crates can do the same thing for everyone else. So being able to make it so your enemy doesn't know what your doing under the fog is just great.

[TetsujinOni]

Wanda isn't the sort of person who could process what 'Ultimate Warlord' actually means. Sure, she's smart, but she's focused on her own interests.

I'm sure she expected him to do something reasonably clever and competent from a strategic standpoint, but I doubt she expected him to turn yesterday's "disaster" into such a stunning triumph.

I'm really hoping Parson will pull out the "the trick of winning is to not seek one path to victory, but to make sure all paths can lead to victory" line that Cavillo used on Miles in The Vor Game.

-Thayus

There's some interesting funhouse mirror-dancing going on with Parson and Miles... I wonder if it's deliberate, or coincidental.

(for those unfamiliar, we're referring to Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series)

[SteveMB]

Parson responds to Stanley's question about what they are doing in this round by telling Stanley that they have already done it. I don't think Wanda is impressed by this opening on Parson's part. I suspect she'd have been happier if Parson had said something like. "We've had a great success, my Tool", or better still, "I've used the insights you have given me, Great Tool, to achieve a great victory!" So she taps Parson's arm, and tries to warn him to be more careful how he handles Stanley. Parson tries to be more careful, but from Wanda's perspective, he still has much to learn about the fine art of handling Stanley.

For example, I suspect that Wanda knows you should not say important things to Stanley in a way that he can find unclear or ambiguous. When Parson asked his question about whether Stanley would like to see fifty of Anson's seige units destroyed, he said it in a way that left it a little unclear whether he's already accomplished this feat or not. I think Wanda was concerned that Stanley wouldn't understand that Parson had already destroyed the fifty seige units, and that the reason why she asked, "That's what you did?" was to urge Parson to describe his accomplishment in a more explicit way Stanley could more easily understand.

Now that makes sense. It's in character for Parson to draw out the presentation of his success to dramatize it (making the most of gamer bragging rights), but that's a risky way to present this to Stanley (and certainly isn't the way Wanda advised him to handle Stanley).

[MedPig]

[QUOTE=Mr White;2757571]
2) The attack/raid had to be done fast to avoid getting drown in to a prolongued fight the dwagons couldn't win without casaulties. This means that some siege units were probably left alone as the risk of being overwhelmed by units that come to help would be to big. (this argument may be untrue if a selective attack means that only the attacked unit/stack can defend itself which I doubt as archers were shown firing on the dwagons. Besides, what's the logic about aircover if it can be avoided so easily.)
[QUOTE]

Well, if the same "8 per stack" rule holds for them, 1 Siege Tower, 2 Pushing Heavy Bears, and 5 units of Marbits/Archerbits, whatever = better than 50% surviving any selective attack, so it's a "Win" for every toasted tower.

Maybe ONLY the Marbits in the stack attacked can attack, the others can't unless you are dumb enough to end your turn next to them. (Sort of a Noob mistake...)