Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

[xanderh]

Thanks for the help!

I am definitely leaning more towards 6 or 8. The main reason I still see the point in getting war caster is for the usage of Shield and absorb elements as I think the spell slots are better used for either buffing, or defenses. I am absolutely in love with taking either blur or mirror image.

are there other aspects I should consider when dual wielding with the change I've described earlier?

Not that I can think of, no. You should be good.

[Merethil]

Hello everyone, I started to play "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" as an EK (well, 1 level Fighter, as of now) and would like to hear some advices. Our DM decided to play by AL rules and restricted us to PHB + 1 official book and I'm not sure should I pick SCAG or XGtE (he allows me to make a choice when I reach 3rd level, given that I haven't used any of the options outside of PHB). My current setup is:

Variant Human Fighter 1
ST18, DX10, CO16, IN14, WI13, CH8
Starting feat: Heavy Armor Mastery
Style: Great Weapon Fighting (started with a maul and a glavie)

So, as all of you can see, I'm going to use 2h weapons. Also not quite sure in which order it would be better for me to take feats. Was thinking about taking Resilient (WIS) at level 4, +2 ST (DM is also using the encumbrance system) at level 6 and then GWM at level 8. I should also note that our setup is a little different from the usual, as we are playing on the forum and there is (including me) 14 players (4 wizards, 4 fighters, 2 clerics, 1 barbarian, 1 rogue, 1 paladin and 1 ranger), split up into (at the very least) two groups.

[Klorox]

Hello everyone, I started to play "Hoard of the Dragon Queen" as an EK (well, 1 level Fighter, as of now) and would like to hear some advices. Our DM decided to play by AL rules and restricted us to PHB + 1 official book and I'm not sure should I pick SCAG or XGtE (he allows me to make a choice when I reach 3rd level, given that I haven't used any of the options outside of PHB). My current setup is:

Variant Human Fighter 1
ST18, DX10, CO16, IN14, WI13, CH8
Starting feat: Heavy Armor Mastery
Style: Great Weapon Fighting (started with a maul and a glavie)

So, as all of you can see, I'm going to use 2h weapons. Also not quite sure in which order it would be better for me to take feats. Was thinking about taking Resilient (WIS) at level 4, +2 ST (DM is also using the encumbrance system) at level 6 and then GWM at level 8. I should also note that our setup is a little different from the usual, as we are playing on the forum and there is (including me) 14 players (4 wizards, 4 fighters, 2 clerics, 1 barbarian, 1 rogue, 1 paladin and 1 ranger), split up into (at the very least) two groups.

I think your point buy is off if you’re playing with AL rules. Just an FYI.

If you choose to use a two handed weapon as an EK you can dish out a lot of damage because you can opt for a feat like great weapon fighting instead of war caster (which is really a must pick at level 4 if you’re using a shield).

[Merethil]

Well, it's mostly AL, so rolling for stats was an option. There was also a couple of unique houserules.

If you choose to use a two handed weapon as an EK you can dish out a lot of damage because you can opt for a feat like great weapon fighting instead of war caster

Figured as much, just not entirely sure should I pick it up on 4, 6 or 8 level.

[Arkhios]

Well, it's mostly AL, so rolling for stats was an option. There was also a couple of unique houserules.
Figured as much, just not entirely sure should I pick it up on 4, 6 or 8 level.

At low levels GWM is bit of an overkill. You're safe to delay it for later.

[Willie the Duck]

At low levels GWM is bit of an overkill. You're safe to delay it for later.

Agreed. At low levels, it is likely you will get overflow damage from GWM (OTOH, moving a hit from taking a creature down to 1-3 hp to taking it to 0 hp still saves you another attack/opportunity to be hit, regardless of any overflow). But also, as you level up, you and your party find additional ways to get advantage on attacks, making GWM more likely to be usable.

[Merethil]

At low levels GWM is bit of an overkill. You're safe to delay it for later.

Agreed. At low levels, it is likely you will get overflow damage from GWM (OTOH, moving a hit from taking a creature down to 1-3 hp to taking it to 0 hp still saves you another attack/opportunity to be hit, regardless of any overflow). But also, as you level up, you and your party find additional ways to get advantage on attacks, making GWM more likely to be usable.

Thanks, good to know.

Given that I'll be hitting pretty hard even without SCAG cantrips, I guess it's better to stick with XGtE instead, right? After all, it seems that BB/GFB only really shines after 7th level (and HotDQ rarely goes behind level 8), while Absorb Elements will be useful straight from level 3.

[Specter]

Thanks, good to know.

Given that I'll be hitting pretty hard even without SCAG cantrips, I guess it's better to stick with XGtE instead, right? After all, it seems that BB/GFB only really shines after 7th level (and HotDQ rarely goes behind level 8), while Absorb Elements will be useful straight from level 3.

Absolutely.

Nice guide. Really helpful for my fighter.

Hey, thanks!

[XZlayeD]

In the 5e campaign our DM is currently running for us, he has changed dual wielding in such a way that attacking with a dual wielding offhand doesn't cost you a bonus action, which has made some of us try and pick up dual wielding and make it work.


However 2handed weapons especially with both great weapon master and polearm master still beats dual wielding pretty hard in terms of damage output, not to mention how much easier it is for a caster like an eldritch knight to use a 2hander while casting, skews the results in 2handed every time.


In light of this I've tried to mock up a feat like GWM for dual wielding that focuses on the added attacks the play style it embodies, while lending a bit from GWM so here goes:


On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

If your offhand attack hits the same target as one of the mainhand attacks, the target takes an additional 1d4+strength or dexterity modifier as both weapons crushes the opponent.


I would love some balance feedback on this, if it is overtuned or still undertuned, or if this has any loopholes I haven't anticipated

[napoleon_in_rag]

CLASS FEATURES
Fighting Style
• Archery: If you want to make a living out of a bow, take it immediately. Works especially well with Sharpshooter.
• Defense: EK’s should have more protection than any other Fighter due to their spells. If you want to focus on this strength, instead of dealing more damage, take it.
• Dueling: For shield users (both in DEX and STR) who want to deal more damage consistently, as opposed to having more AC. Both are good.
• Great Weapon Fighting: Greataxes and greatswords are more viable for Battlemasters and Champions than you, but nothing’s stopping you from shoving that arcane halberd up their stomachs.
• Protection: It’s been said that having a high AC is worth nothing if enemies are not targeting you, and I kinda agree, but you already get two solid uses for your reaction in melee, and this makes one too many.
• Two-Weapon Fighting: No. You must use the Attack action to use the off-hand attack (no casting spells and attacking with it), you give up a shield for it and it doesn’t scale well with your many attacks. Run.

I strongly disagree with this section on several points.

Archery: EK is about combining magic with weapons. There are no spells that combine well with ranged attacks and most ranged cantrips will do more damage than a long bow at 5th level (2d10 for Fire Bolt for example). If you want to be a magical archer, use "Arcane Archer". I would downgrade this to black.

Defense: I agree with this - if you want to be an uber-tank EK this is gold.

Dueling: You say "For shield users". Without the warcaster feat, you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. This includes important EK spells like "Absorb Elements" and "Shield". Because this is feat dependent, I would downgrade it to purple if not red.

Great Weapon Fighting: Sage advice has stated that you can still cast with a two handed weapon. A Two Handed GreatSword with Great Weapon Fighting does 8.3 dpa while a Long Sword wielded with one hand with dueling does 6.5 dpa. So if you are going for an offensive EK, this is you best pick. It should be upgraded to Gold.

Protection: Requires a shield so you can't cast spells with a somatic component unless you have the warcaster feat. Because you have to be within 5 feet of someone you want to protect, it is very situational. Downgrade it to Red if not Maroon.

Two Weapon Fighting: I agree, it needs to be red. Especially because you can't cast spells with a somatic component without a free hand.

So in my opinion, there are two options for EK. If you want to be an offensive EK, go with Great Weapon Fighting. If you want to be a defensive EK, go with defense.

[Klorox]

I strongly disagree with this section on several points.

Archery: EK is about combining magic with weapons. There are no spells that combine well with ranged attacks and most ranged cantrips will do more damage than a long bow at 5th level (2d10 for Fire Bolt for example). If you want to be a magical archer, use "Arcane Archer". I would downgrade this to black.

Defense: I agree with this - if you want to be an uber-tank EK this is gold.

Dueling: You say "For shield users". Without the warcaster feat, you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. This includes important EK spells like "Absorb Elements" and "Shield". Because this is feat dependent, I would downgrade it to purple if not red.

Great Weapon Fighting: Sage advice has stated that you can still cast with a two handed weapon. A Two Handed GreatSword with Great Weapon Fighting does 8.3 dpa while a Long Sword wielded with one hand with dueling does 6.5 dpa. So if you are going for an offensive EK, this is you best pick. It should be upgraded to Gold.

Protection: Requires a shield so you can't cast spells with a somatic component unless you have the warcaster feat. Because you have to be within 5 feet of someone you want to protect, it is very situational. Downgrade it to Red if not Maroon.

Two Weapon Fighting: I agree, it needs to be red. Especially because you can't cast spells with a somatic component without a free hand.

So in my opinion, there are two options for EK. If you want to be an offensive EK, go with Great Weapon Fighting. If you want to be a defensive EK, go with defense.

I don’t think EK is about combining spells and weapons. I think it’s about having a fighter with a few magical tricks.

I’ve played several EK’s and cantrips like fire bolt are tough to optimize. Most things that require INT are tough to optimize since you still need good fighter stats.

You stated a fire bolt at level 5 doing 2d10 damage. That’s correct. But a DEX based EK will do 1d8 +3 or +4 with a longbow, which is comparable, will hit more often, and you don’t use up your precious cantrip selection.

This guide was written when the only book out for players was the PHB. Cantrips like booming blade and green flame blade help the EK out a ton.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I don’t think EK is about combining spells and weapons. I think it’s about having a fighter with a few magical tricks.

I’ve played several EK’s and cantrips like fire bolt are tough to optimize. Most things that require INT are tough to optimize since you still need good fighter stats.

You stated a fire bolt at level 5 doing 2d10 damage. That’s correct. But a DEX based EK will do 1d8 +3 or +4 with a longbow, which is comparable, will hit more often, and you don’t use up your precious cantrip selection.

This guide was written when the only book out for players was the PHB. Cantrips like booming blade and green flame blade help the EK out a ton.

The damages of the two aren't comparable. 1d8+4 means 8.5 dpa. 2d10 means 11.0 dpa. So given the choice between shooting a long bow or a firebolt, fire bolt is better after 5th level.

Sure you can shoot a long bow more often, but you will always want to replace one of those attacks with a cantrip.

As an archery EK, what spells do you pick? The shield spell is superfluous as you usually can find 1/2 or 3/4 cover as an Archer.

Arcane Archer is definitely a better pick than a ranged EK.

[xanderh]

The damages of the two aren't comparable. 1d8+4 means 8.5 dpa. 2d10 means 11.0 dpa. So given the choice between shooting a long bow or a firebolt, fire bolt is better after 5th level.

Sure you can shoot a long bow more often, but you will always want to replace one of those attacks with a cantrip.

As an archery EK, what spells do you pick? The shield spell is superfluous as you usually can find 1/2 or 3/4 cover as an Archer.

Arcane Archer is definitely a better pick than a ranged EK.

Thing is, at level 5, you would get 2 attacks with the longbow, not just one, giving you 17 damage per round. You can increase this further with feats like Sharpshooter, if you want to.
Oh, and the bonus to hit means your effective average damage is significantly higher than if you don't have it.

And what spells to pick? Well, even though you can find cover as an archer, Shield is still valuable for when that's not possible, or for when you get hit anyway by an enemy that's really tough. Or if you suddenly find yourself in melee range of enemies. Absorb elements is also nice, for the same reasons that it's nice on melee EKs.
Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat are nice for positioning. Hold Person is even better on a ranged EK, since it's a good bit harder to get advantage on ranged attacks compared to melee.
If we want to go even higher, Haste is still great on a ranged EK, just like it would be on a melee.

Arcane Archer is widely considered not very good. It's really underwhelming compared to most other options. You don't get enough uses of Arcane Shot, and the effects you get from using it are just not very good. You're the first person I've seen that actually advocated using it.

[MaxWilson]

Archery: EK is about combining magic with weapons. There are no spells that combine well with ranged attacks and most ranged cantrips will do more damage than a long bow at 5th level (2d10 for Fire Bolt for example). If you want to be a magical archer, use "Arcane Archer". I would downgrade this to black.

Magic Weapon combines well with Sharpshooter, and so does Find Familiar if you're into that. Your offense winds up being better than an Arcane Archer in most respects, and you still have other spell slots for Shield/Absorb Elements/whatever.

[Willie the Duck]

Archery: EK is about combining magic with weapons. There are no spells that combine well with ranged attacks and most ranged cantrips will do more damage than a long bow at 5th level (2d10 for Fire Bolt for example). If you want to be a magical archer, use "Arcane Archer". I would downgrade this to black.

Archery in general (in 5e) is a top pick for any class whose party contribution is weapon damage. Certainly any class which gets the option of choosing the archery fighting style (DPR calculations are uninformative without to-hit chances as well as damage per hit in the arithmetic). A 5th level EK, even discounting the +2 to hit (or the possibility that their Dex is higher than their Int) will out-damage Firebolt if their Dex is 14+ (2d8+4>2d10, on average, even considering crits). Given that this guide is not featless-game-exclusive, the amazing power of Sharpshooter (and potentially Crossbow Expert) also needs to be considered. At the very least, this is a gold option for EKs without a high Int.

Dueling: You say "For shield users". Without the warcaster feat, you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. This includes important EK spells like "Absorb Elements" and "Shield". Because this is feat dependent, I would downgrade it to purple if not red.

I would say it should be given a split coloring scheme, with the explanation that it is dependent upon having the feat. Calling one of the best options possible for the class (if they have the feat) red because it requires the feat would be asinine.

Great Weapon Fighting: Sage advice has stated that you can still cast with a two handed weapon. A Two Handed GreatSword with Great Weapon Fighting does 8.3 dpa while a Long Sword wielded with one hand with dueling does 6.5 dpa. So if you are going for an offensive EK, this is you best pick. It should be upgraded to Gold.

The extra damage, by itself, is not particularly impressive. To capitalize upon this fighting style, you really need the Str-based feats like GWM or PAM. Given how many options a EK has with their bonus and reaction actions, they are not PAM specialists, and GWM is vastly outclasses by Sharpshooter (and the +2 to hit with archery style) without either regular advantage on attacks (by being a barbarian) or serious to-hit aid (such as battlemaster using SD on precise striking). If the correct way to be a magical archer fighter is to be an Arcane Archer, the correct way to be a magical GWF-fighter is to be a Battlemaster.

Protection: Requires a shield so you can't cast spells with a somatic component unless you have the warcaster feat. Because you have to be within 5 feet of someone you want to protect, it is very situational. Downgrade it to Red if not Maroon.

Again, we can have a split color scheme for with and without the feat. I agree that even then this is not the best choice, but you didn't mention the reason-EK has other uses for those actions.

The damages of the two aren't comparable. 1d8+4 means 8.5 dpa. 2d10 means 11.0 dpa. So given the choice between shooting a long bow or a firebolt, fire bolt is better after 5th level. Sure you can shoot a long bow more often, but you will always want to replace one of those attacks with a cantrip.

No. A few small number of EKs with higher Ints than their combat stats would want to shoot one arrow and one firebolt off at levels 7 through 10. A Str-based, high-Int fighter probably would want to do so even more (in that case, the arrow might be just there because what else are you going to do, and in that case they certainly are not candidates for archery builds).

As an archery EK, what spells do you pick? The shield spell is superfluous as you usually can find 1/2 or 3/4 cover as an Archer.

For a very specific definition of usually, perhaps. Regardless, the existence of the shield spell frees the archer up from having to be quite so dedicated to seeking out that cover (and giving up whatever opportunity costs that positioning presents). Beyond that, the spells they would pick could be any number of non-ranged-combat cantrips (mage hand, minor illusion, move earth to make that cover you are talking about, etc.), as well as absorb elements, area effects, protection from good/evil, and all the utility/mobility spells every EK snaps up when they have a non-evoc/abj slot open.

Arcane Archer is definitely a better pick than a ranged EK.

I don't know many people that think Arcane Archer is all that great in total terms, but it definitely doesn't capture the style of the EK better than a bow-using EK.

[MaxWilson]

I would say it should be given a split coloring scheme, with the explanation that it is dependent upon having the feat.

Besides, it's not dependent on having the feat. You only get one reaction per round anyway, so you can never Shield/Absorb Elements + opportunity attack in the same round anyway (aside from corner cases w/ Cavaliers). You generally know in advance whether you're more interested in threatening opportunity attacks or playing defense, and you can sheathe your weapon with your object interaction or keep it in hand, as appropriate to what you're trying to accomplish. Warcaster lets you delay the decision (don't have to sheathe your weapon), and it also enables some interesting grappling tactics (you can grapple + prone + use a shield + Shield for a truly massive defensive advantage), and it goes well with SCAG cantrips for better opportunity attacks, but it isn't remotely mandatory for an EK, even if you specialize in Dueling.

[Willie the Duck]

Right, right, good call. Hadn't contemplate that an EK would opt not to have their weapon out, so that they at least had the opportunity to decision on whether to OA or not. Regardless, there is no reason to paint some of the best options available to EKs red.

[BarneyBent]

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I don’t understand why a Warlock multiclass is red.

A 2 level Hexblade dip at level 2-3 and then EK from there gets you the full blasting of Agonizing Eldritch Blast, on average 6 level 1 spell slots per day (assuming 3 short rests), access to Hex, the ability to use CHA for your weapon attacks, plus extra cantrips.

At level 9, assuming 20 CHA and a hand crossbow, you’re doing 2d10+1d6+15 = 29.5 average damage at range. You can take Crossbow Expert to make that a melee weapon and Blast in melee. All that is before applying Hexblade’s curse (+12 average) and Hex (+10.5), plus you have an invocation up your sleeve.

You’ll be way outpacing a straight EK, and while a sorcerer dip gives you metamagic for quickening, unless you take a big dip you won’t have the resources to really make it work. The above build is almost resource free - 1st level spell slots of which you have many, and the occasional bonus action to power Hex.

Am I missing something?

[MaxWilson]

Am I missing something?

IIRC this thread's OP was written before Hexblades existed.

Also, remember to compare EB + bonus action crossbow to Sharpshooter + bonus action crossbow. The Hexblade way isn't necessarily an improvement in damage; it depends on AC, range, etc. It also spreads you thinner when it comes to feats for providing range and overcoming partial cover (Sharpshooter vs. Spell Sniper or both?). Hexblade + EK is good now, maybe competitive with straight EK, but not better either. Just different.

[BarneyBent]

IIRC this thread's OP was written before Hexblades existed.

Also, remember to compare EB + bonus action crossbow to Sharpshooter + bonus action crossbow. The Hexblade way isn't necessarily an improvement in damage; it depends on AC, range, etc. It also spreads you thinner when it comes to feats for providing range and overcoming partial cover (Sharpshooter vs. Spell Sniper or both?). Hexblade + EK is good now, maybe competitive with straight EK, but not better either. Just different.

Fair point on the timing, had misssd that.

I actually agree it’s less optimal as a ranged build compared to melee due to the feats required. But Crossbow Expert makes the build totally melee viable, removing the need to ignore cover.

As far as damage goes, let’s look at SS/GWM. Let’s says a 1d12 damage dice to keep things simples

At level 9, that’s 2d12+ 30 = approximately 43 damage per turn. -5 to hit translates to about 25% reduction in overall damage. So that’s still about 30-31. Occasionally you’ll get your bonus action attack with GWM so that’s another 1d12+15, but hardly reliable.

So that’s average of around 30, maxing around 60 if everything hits AND you get your bonus action attack.

Meanwhile Eldritch Blaster in melee is doing:

2d10 +1d8 + 15 + 3d6 (Hex) + 12 (Hexblade’s Curse) = 52 per round. You won’t always have Hex and HC up but you’ll have one or both of them more often than you will land every GWM hit including bonus attack.

Other benefits include more 1st level spell slots to power shield, the ability to wield a shield, insanely good AoO with Warcaster, the ability to add a third and fourth beam while still using War Magic (4 attacks at 11, 5 at 17), and the ability to still get those beams while multiclassing further (e.g. now you can take those Sorc levels, or Rogue/Paladin to really make those bonus action hits really count, while your attacks still scale!).

In an ideal world, yeah, the SS/GWM build is doing a bit more damage than an ideal world WarEK, but in reality I reckon the WarEK is doing more, and has more potential as the build matures.

Whatever the case, Warlock should be Blue, not Red. The class with the best cantrip in the game, combined with the class that makes the best use of cantrips, just has to be Blue for mine.

[MaxWilson]

Fair point on the timing, had misssd that.

I actually agree it’s less optimal as a ranged build compared to melee due to the feats required. But Crossbow Expert makes the build totally melee viable, removing the need to ignore cover.

As far as damage goes, let’s look at SS/GWM. Let’s says a 1d12 damage dice to keep things simples

At level 9, that’s 2d12+ 30 = approximately 43 damage per turn. -5 to hit translates to about 25% reduction in overall damage. So that’s still about 30-31. Occasionally you’ll get your bonus action attack with GWM so that’s another 1d12+15, but hardly reliable.

So that’s average of around 30, maxing around 60 if everything hits AND you get your bonus action attack.

Meanwhile Eldritch Blaster in melee is doing:

2d10 +1d8 + 15 + 3d6 (Hex) + 12 (Hexblade’s Curse) = 52 per round. You won’t always have Hex and HC up but you’ll have one or both of them more often than you will land every GWM hit including bonus attack.

You're spending a bonus action on Hex, a bonus action on Hexblade's curse, your concentration, and another bonus action on War Magic. (You also have severe range limitations on Hexblade's Curse and moderately restrictive range limitations on Hex.) All of your extra damage is coming from Hex and Hexblade's curse, not Eldritch Blast. If it weren't for the triple demand on bonus action you could read this as an argument in favor of dipping one level of Hexblade, but as it is, by the time you make up for the two rounds of missed bonus actions, it will have been something like six rounds since combat started, and whatever monster you were laying Hex + Hexblade's Curse on is probably already long dead.

Different, but not better than pure EK.

Other benefits include more 1st level spell slots to power shield, the ability to wield a shield, insanely good AoO with Warcaster, the ability to add a third and fourth beam while still using War Magic (4 attacks at 11, 5 at 17), and the ability to still get those beams while multiclassing further (e.g. now you can take those Sorc levels, or Rogue/Paladin to really make those bonus action hits really count, while your attacks still scale!).

In an ideal world, yeah, the SS/GWM build is doing a bit more damage than an ideal world WarEK, but in reality I reckon the WarEK is doing more, and has more potential as the build matures.

Whatever the case, Warlock should be Blue, not Red. The class with the best cantrip in the game, combined with the class that makes the best use of cantrips, just has to be Blue for mine.

You have exactly the same ability to wield a shield as a regular EK--you can do it as long as you're not using a two-handed weapon. And if you're not using a two-handed weapon, why even bother going Eldritch Knight in the first place? You might as well just be a straight sorlock.

The only point at which Eldritch Blast + War Magic (Sharpshooter) starts to outpace Extra Attacks (Sharpshooter) + Crossbow Expert (for the sake of comparison--though CE isn't always a good feat investment or the best use of your bonus action) is when your fourth beam comes online at level 17, and that's only temporary. For every other level they're pretty comparable. E.g. at level 11, the Sharpshooter with Sharpshooter/CE/Dex 20 does 4x +6 for d6+15 damage = 45.1 damage per round against AC 15 Mind Flayers/etc., whereas the comparable Hexblade 2/Eldritch Knight 9 does 3x +9 for d10+5 plus 1x +6 for d6+15 = 35.73 damage per round against those same Mind Flayers. The Hexblade can spend concentration and bonus actions to improve that damage (e.g. dropping to 24.45 DPR one round in exchange for boosting DPR to 46.40 via Hex on subsequent rounds), but the EK can similarly use his concentration to boost his damage via Magic Weapon (4x +7 for d6+16, DPR 51.40 against AC 15) and Magic Weapon has a duration long enough he can cast it way before combat.

There just isn't a compelling case there for trading all of your Extra Attacks for mere Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast. If you're going to go the warlock route, do it whole-heartedly, as a Shepherd Druidlock or something so you can leverage Agonizing Repelling Blast + Spike Growth for tons of damage and control. You're not going to out-archer the archer at archery--at best you'll just be similar to him, but with different methods.

Yes, there are fringe benefits to warlocking, but there are fringe benefits to the fighter route as well: more feats, faster, more wizard spells faster, less MADness, and a better range. (At 200 paces, Sharpshooter EK 11 with 3 longbow attacks and Dex 20 trumps Sharpshooter EK 9/Warlock 2 with Dex 12/Cha 20, especially since Hex Warrior doesn't work with longbows unless you invest more heavily in Warlock invocations so you're shooting your bow with Dex 12.) And it's not like EKs don't already have a good use for Warcaster opportunity attack (Booming Blade).

[MeeposFire]

Yea to me if you want to multiclass to use EB and war magic I tend to say you should add levels in something that improves the damage of your one attack.

My favorite is rogue. If you do something like fighter8/warlock2/rogue10 (you could also go fighter 7 and rogue 11 if you want) you get your EB and then a crossbow shot that you can boost with sneak attack. That makes for some nice damage and the rogue abilities are great for utility and defense.

[BarneyBent]

You're spending a bonus action on Hex, a bonus action on Hexblade's curse, your concentration, and another bonus action on War Magic. (You also have severe range limitations on Hexblade's Curse and moderately restrictive range limitations on Hex.) All of your extra damage is coming from Hex and Hexblade's curse, not Eldritch Blast. If it weren't for the triple demand on bonus action you could read this as an argument in favor of dipping one level of Hexblade, but as it is, by the time you make up for the two rounds of missed bonus actions, it will have been something like six rounds since combat started, and whatever monster you were laying Hex + Hexblade's Curse on is probably already long dead.

Different, but not better than pure EK.

I’m not arguing it’s necessarily better, I’m arguing it’s a good option. Multiclassing is rarely a strictly better option than single classing, exceptions being some of the CHA-based multiclasses and maybe the odd totally broken combo.

Taking a SS/GWM build will do more damage to a higher number of low AC enemies. A Hexblade dip will do more damage to a single big enemy. In a fight with a big enemy and lots of mooks, let your allies take out the easy targets while you focus fire on the big guy. The early bonus actions won’t be missed in a long fight.

You have exactly the same ability to wield a shield as a regular EK--you can do it as long as you're not using a two-handed weapon. And if you're not using a two-handed weapon, why even bother going Eldritch Knight in the first place? You might as well just be a straight sorlock.

Why not be a Sorlock? Heavy armour, Action Surge, Defence fighting style, flavour, better use of Armor of Agathys, desire to not just spam quickened EBs every turn and churn all but a few spell slots into sorcery points.

And the reason not to wield a two handed weapon is so you can wield a shield. Getting most of your damage from repeated AEBs means you lose less relative to a GWM two handed build. You sacrifice a bit of damage there for +2 AC and make up for most of the damage with Hex and Hexblade’s curse.

In short, this build is more able to wield a shield because it’s not reliant on GWM to optimise damage.

You also don’t have to continue with Warlock levels or Fighter levels to continue to get new attacks. Which means you can take Paladin or Rogue to start really piling on the bonus action damage.

The only point at which Eldritch Blast + War Magic (Sharpshooter) starts to outpace Extra Attacks (Sharpshooter) + Crossbow Expert (for the sake of comparison--though CE isn't always a good feat investment or the best use of your bonus action) is when your fourth beam comes online at level 17, and that's only temporary. For every other level they're pretty comparable. E.g. at level 11, the Sharpshooter with Sharpshooter/CE/Dex 20 does 4x +6 for d6+15 damage = 45.1 damage per round against AC 15 Mind Flayers/etc., whereas the comparable Hexblade 2/Eldritch Knight 9 does 3x +9 for d10+5 plus 1x +6 for d6+15 = 35.73 damage per round against those same Mind Flayers. The Hexblade can spend concentration and bonus actions to improve that damage (e.g. dropping to 24.45 DPR one round in exchange for boosting DPR to 46.40 via Hex on subsequent rounds), but the EK can similarly use his concentration to boost his damage via Magic Weapon (4x +7 for d6+16, DPR 51.40 against AC 15) and Magic Weapon has a duration long enough he can cast it way before combat.

Firstly, at level 11 I’d suggest taking at least level of Rogue (ranged or
Melee), Paladin (melee only) for extra bonus attack damage, plus potentially Warlock 3 for Pact Boon (any option will add value). Once you’re at Fighter 7, the only reason to keep taking Fighter levels one more for the ASI/Feat. Which allows for some very powerful builds.

Second, what is Magic Weapon going to offer at that level? It’s hard to believe you won’t already have a +1 weapon by that stage. +1 damage and approx 5% bonus to hit is nice but Hex is better. Approx 2 extra damage per attack if taking the +10, vs 3.5 per attack and disadvantage on skill checks of your choice with Hex.

Also, I never said anything about taking Sharpshooter for this build. The whole point is that you don’t need to, allowing you to put that ASI into something else, though you do miss out on the cover. This build is better in melee than at range though because of that and also because +2 AC.

There just isn't a compelling case there for trading all of your Extra Attacks for mere Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast. If you're going to go the warlock route, do it whole-heartedly, as a Shepherd Druidlock or something so you can leverage Agonizing Repelling Blast + Spike Growth for tons of damage and control. You're not going to out-archer the archer at archery--at best you'll just be similar to him, but with different methods.

You seem to think I’m suggesting this build leaves the straight Fighter in the dust. It doesn’t, but it’s a lot more flexible and, especially against a BBEG, can deal more damage. It’s especially powerful when combined with Rogue or Paladin. Against an Archer it’s fairly similar at level 9, and once you start taking Rogue you can land Sneak Attacks at which point the damage starts to outpace the straight Fighter.

In melee I’d argue it’s better than EK earlier and you can take Paladin or Rogue. Plus Warlock up to 3-5 is probably not a bad idea depending on the campaign, how much utility vs damage you want, etc.

Yes, there are fringe benefits to warlocking, but there are fringe benefits to the fighter route as well: more feats, faster, more wizard spells faster, less MADness, and a better range. (At 200 paces, Sharpshooter EK 11 with 3 longbow attacks and Dex 20 trumps Sharpshooter EK 9/Warlock 2 with Dex 12/Cha 20, especially since Hex Warrior doesn't work with longbows unless you invest more heavily in Warlock invocations so you're shooting your bow with Dex 12.) And it's not like EKs don't already have a good use for Warcaster opportunity attack (Booming Blade).

I don’t really disagree that there are benefits to both. Again, I’m not arguing that not multiclassing is sub-optimal, I’m arguing that it’s potentially a very good option and absolutely should not be red (even pre-Hexblade).

Firstly, MADness is not an issue - you would want 13 STR/DEX minimum anyway, and can then max CHA. It’s no more MAD than a Hexblade/Paladin, assuming you don’t rely on EK attacks/spells requiring saves.

Secondly, as I’ve said, by relying on cantrip scaling rather than extra attacks, you’re free to invest further in other classes without sacrificing further attacks. Warlock 2 is minimum but you can take more. Rogue, Paladin, Sorcerer, even Bard, all would add power. Hell, you could even build it into an Eldritch Blasting, Smiting Grappling build using a combination of Expertise (Rogue or Bard), two levels of Paladin, Hex for disadvantage on STR checks, etc. Hex, Grasp of Hadar enemy if they’re not quite in melee, Action Surge Grapple, blast and smite (or shove with enemy at disadvantage) in subsequent turns.

You’re focusing on whether I think Warlock multiclass can out-archer an archer. I don’t, that’s not what I’m arguing. I’m arguing that EK7-8 plus Warlock 2 does similar damage, and is a much more flexible and potentially powerful build as you add levels in either Warlock or other things. EK 8/Warlock 12 alone is arguably better than EK 20 in melee, or at least comparable while offering something very different and unique (not least suddenly being able to be a face).

That’s why Warlock should be at least Blue.

[MaxWilson]

I’m not arguing it’s necessarily better, I’m arguing it’s a good option. SNIP

You seem to think I’m suggesting this build leaves the straight Fighter in the dust. It doesn’t, but it’s a lot more flexible and, especially against a BBEG, can deal more damage. SNIP

That’s why Warlock should be at least Blue.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree, Warlock (especially Hexblade) is a very valid choice and brings some interesting strengths to the table. Definitely worth considering adding some warlock even if you're primarily an EK. Pure EK is valid too of course.

Sorlock is also good but at that point it has very little to do with this thread because you have zero fighter levels. :)

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm hoping I get to play an Eldritch Knight in my next group, and I want to ask my DM if I can swap spellcasting ability score, but more importantly, swap spell lists.

I'm just really interested in the idea, but my DM is most likely to allow it if I have a strong thematic behind it.

What cool story and narratives can we create behind a Divine Knight, Elemental Knight or Druidic Knight?

[J76]

- Hold Person + Eldritch Strike + Action Surge (or The EK Annihilation): On the first round, attack a humanoid in any fashion you like. On the second one, cast Hold Person (they will save with disadvantage). On that same round, Action Surge to perform your regular attack routine, except this time with advantage… and critting on every hit. Who needs a Champion?

How does it crit on every hit?

[Klorox]

- Hold Person + Eldritch Strike + Action Surge (or The EK Annihilation): On the first round, attack a humanoid in any fashion you like. On the second one, cast Hold Person (they will save with disadvantage). On that same round, Action Surge to perform your regular attack routine, except this time with advantage… and critting on every hit. Who needs a Champion?

How does it crit on every hit?

If the Hold Person hits, strikes will all be crits.

Unfortunately it’s tough to get a decent INT for these guys (at least with point buy).

[Algork]

- Hold Person + Eldritch Strike + Action Surge (or The EK Annihilation): On the first round, attack a humanoid in any fashion you like. On the second one, cast Hold Person (they will save with disadvantage). On that same round, Action Surge to perform your regular attack routine, except this time with advantage… and critting on every hit. Who needs a Champion?

How does it crit on every hit?

Hold person bestows the Paralysed condition :
A paralyzed creature is incapacitated (see the condition) and can't move or speak.
The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature

[Syjyl4488]

I am looking for some advice about building a rock gnome ek...considering going the 2H route, with great weapon fighting, and gwm. With standard array I would set it up with 15 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, and 8 cha. Any suggestions featwise/spell wise?

[Syjyl4488]

I am looking for some advice about building a rock gnome ek...considering going the 2H route, with great weapon fighting, and gwm. With standard array I would set it up with 15 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, and 8 cha. Any suggestions featwise/spell wise?

I was thinking good at 4th lvl and squat nimbleness at 6th but other than that I am open to suggestions