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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BerserkOne View Post
    A question for math-oriented people: if I don't take the War Caster feat, is it better to use my shield +1, or to have a free hand and cast the shield spell? Is there someplace I can go to learn how to calculate those statistics?
    Remember with weapon bond you can summon your weapon to your hand as "bonus action" So you could take your turn then drop your weapon. Then at the start of your text turn summon the weapon to your hand as a bonus action.
    You won't be able to take attacks of opportunity but you could benefit from the shield equipment and the shield spell.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Remember with weapon bond you can summon your weapon to your hand as "bonus action" So you could take your turn then drop your weapon. Then at the start of your text turn summon the weapon to your hand as a bonus action.
    You won't be able to take attacks of opportunity but you could benefit from the shield equipment and the shield spell.
    Well you could make an opportunity attack but you would have to either use your unarmed attack for one damage+ str or use your shield as an improvised weapon which would likely deal more damage but with less accuracy.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    It is better to use a maul and cast shield than to use a long sword and don a +1 shield.
    I talked to my DM about that at my last session and he said you can't cast shield while holding a maul. Specifically, he said I could cast on my turn because I can drop my weapon and then retrieve it afterward with weapon bond, but I can't hold the weapon and cast spells with somatic components at the same time, which is what I'd be doing for the reaction. To do that, I'd need the war caster feat. Otherwise I'd have to leave my weapon on the ground between turns.

    When I questioned him on it, he said that one of the designers had specifically clarified the issue. After our session, he sent me the link below.

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/content...earls-Crawford

    The specific text is about midway through the "Spells and Magic" section, but I'll copy it below so you don't have to dig.

    "can you cast a spell that uses somatic components if you weild a 2 handed weapon or a vertile weapon in 2 hands?" nope. -M

    That doesn't really affect the defensive calculus, but I thought it was worth pointing out. It kind of seems like the EK really needs to take war caster if he wants to use the shield spell unless he's going to be using the defense or dueling fighting style with no shield. Honestly, that's kind of disappointing. It limits the class even more.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BerserkOne View Post
    I talked to my DM about that at my last session and he said you can't cast shield while holding a maul. Specifically, he said I could cast on my turn because I can drop my weapon and then retrieve it afterward with weapon bond, but I can't hold the weapon and cast spells with somatic components at the same time, which is what I'd be doing for the reaction. To do that, I'd need the war caster feat. Otherwise I'd have to leave my weapon on the ground between turns.

    When I questioned him on it, he said that one of the designers had specifically clarified the issue. After our session, he sent me the link below.

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/content...earls-Crawford

    The specific text is about midway through the "Spells and Magic" section, but I'll copy it below so you don't have to dig.

    "can you cast a spell that uses somatic components if you weild a 2 handed weapon or a vertile weapon in 2 hands?" nope. -M

    That doesn't really affect the defensive calculus, but I thought it was worth pointing out. It kind of seems like the EK really needs to take war caster if he wants to use the shield spell unless he's going to be using the defense or dueling fighting style with no shield. Honestly, that's kind of disappointing. It limits the class even more.
    Crawford disagrees here...
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...93963979972608

    And the RAW specifies that a two handed weapon must be held in two hands only to attack, not to be held.

    Edit: I found that bit. Your GM's info is out of date, the designers have since clairified on this

    They included it in the players handbook erratta for 2016, most likely due to those earlier dicusstions



    https://media.wizards.com/2016/downl.../PH-Errata.pdf

    Center column, just before the bottom of the first page.

    Not needing Warcaster is one of the big benefits of going with a two handed weapon.
    Last edited by Matrix_Walker; 2017-07-26 at 01:22 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix_Walker View Post
    Crawford disagrees here...
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...93963979972608

    And the RAW specifies that a two handed weapon must be held in two hands only to attack, not to be held.
    I'll definitely be showing that to the DM! Thanks! Although it's kind of scary that even the designers aren't always consistent in their interpretation of the rules...

    With that in mind, do you think it would be worth it to ask the DM if I can switch to the two-handed weapon fighting style instead of dueling? I know he'll let me if I ask.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BerserkOne View Post
    I'll definitely be showing that to the DM! Thanks! Although it's kind of scary that even the designers aren't always consistent in their interpretation of the rules...

    With that in mind, do you think it would be worth it to ask the DM if I can switch to the two-handed weapon fighting style instead of dueling? I know he'll let me if I ask.
    I'm a big fan of Defense myself, but whatever floats your boat....

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    I agree with that sentiment. The two handed fighting stye is really meh. I personally find defense +1 to AC to be more useful than rerolling dice especially since I can actually deal less damage if I am unlucky. Further it does not increase your max damage it only slightly increases your average damage (technically it does not even increase your damage minimum either though it makes actually getting that minimum less likely).
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    So I can't find it but related to the first Sage Advice saying you need war caster to cast with a two handed weapon, I believe Mearls also has one mentioning that he would be okay with a sword and board caster "putting his sword in the shield hand as a free action to cast"

    So yeah completely backwards. Maybe better to just clarify from DM to DM.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Koren View Post
    So I can't find it but related to the first Sage Advice saying you need war caster to cast with a two handed weapon, I believe Mearls also has one mentioning that he would be okay with a sword and board caster "putting his sword in the shield hand as a free action to cast"

    So yeah completely backwards. Maybe better to just clarify from DM to DM.
    That exchange is also on the list in the link I posted. It seems like Mearls makes completely contradictory rulings on the issue depending on his mood or something. But, the Twitter convo Matrix_Walker linked is the most recent thing I've seen so far, and my DM was convinced when I showed him, so that's what we're going with.

    I think I'm either going to switch to defense style, or stick with dueling and just bite the bullet on war caster.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by BerserkOne View Post
    That exchange is also on the list in the link I posted. It seems like Mearls makes completely contradictory rulings on the issue depending on his mood or something. But, the Twitter convo Matrix_Walker linked is the most recent thing I've seen so far, and my DM was convinced when I showed him, so that's what we're going with.

    I think I'm either going to switch to defense style, or stick with dueling and just bite the bullet on war caster.
    Mearls has clarified a few times that his responses are personal interpretation for his tables, so it really does just depend on his mood. If you want official answers that are rules as developers intended, you use Crawford.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    I think it's worth pointing out EK9/Wiz11 as another good break point, especially for a high-Str, high-Int build. You've got two high stats in uncommon saves (Str and Int), so your Wis and Dex saves will probably be lacking, so you want Indomitable more than a Dex fighter does. High Int means Eldritch Strike is less valuable for you (especially if your DM doesn't let it apply to ongoing "save-every-turn" spells, which is a valid RAW interpretation) because your saves are already pretty good. Taking Wiz11 lets you just barely get 6th level spells and 7th level slots, as well as lots of Wizard School features (and a pretty strong ward if you go Abjurer).

    Honestly, I think Fighter 8-9-10-11-12 are all totally valid break points and can end up pretty strong.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    I hate how you can't get War Magic and Song of Victory. -_-
    Yes, it's impossible. Now shut up and do the impossible.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sans. View Post
    I hate how you can't get War Magic and Song of Victory. -_-
    Hey, you can't have it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by CBAnaesthesia View Post
    I think it's worth pointing out EK9/Wiz11 as another good break point, especially for a high-Str, high-Int build. You've got two high stats in uncommon saves (Str and Int), so your Wis and Dex saves will probably be lacking, so you want Indomitable more than a Dex fighter does. High Int means Eldritch Strike is less valuable for you (especially if your DM doesn't let it apply to ongoing "save-every-turn" spells, which is a valid RAW interpretation) because your saves are already pretty good. Taking Wiz11 lets you just barely get 6th level spells and 7th level slots, as well as lots of Wizard School features (and a pretty strong ward if you go Abjurer).

    Honestly, I think Fighter 8-9-10-11-12 are all totally valid break points and can end up pretty strong.
    All of those points can work out jist fine, but I personally would never stop at 9. First of all, because I'm not reeeeally impressed with Wizard's 6th-level spells. Maybe Globe of Invulnerability or Otto's, but the rest is not too far from Wall of Stone or Animate Objects.

    Secondly, because Eldritch Strike is too much of a pivotal point for me. Even with War Magic involved, just making them save at a disadvantage against something like Frostbite or Poison Spray is sometimes the only way to get to brutes. With simple stuff you can from EK like Hold Person or Tasha's, it's pretty good; but with the many good spells you can get as a Wizard, such as Slow, Banishment or Hold Monster, it's just... too good. It's a shame you can only get Eldritch Strike and 3rd-level spells at 15th level if you multi as a Wizard.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    All of those points can work out jist fine, but I personally would never stop at 9. First of all, because I'm not reeeeally impressed with Wizard's 6th-level spells. Maybe Globe of Invulnerability or Otto's, but the rest is not too far from Wall of Stone or Animate Objects.
    Really? You don't like any of Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion or True Seeing?
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  15. - Top - End - #225
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    I don't understand why any EK build wouldn't want to get up to at least level 11 before exploring other multiclasses. Eldritch Strike and 3rd attack is VERY powerful. Yes, unless magical items are dropping it's kind of a bummer you'll only have 2nd level spells to use it on when you first get it, but the latter feature immediately makes your DPR and spike damage top-tier and Eldritch Knight makes your save DCs equivalent to that of dedicated classes even with a modest Intelligence.

    I do understand branching out if you want to use the other features (especially if you rolled high for stats and there aren't any magical items dropping) but I don't understand branching out before then if you took 6 or more levels of Eldritch Knight.
    Last edited by Deathtongue; 2017-09-03 at 02:35 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #226
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    I don't understand why any EK build wouldn't want to get up to at least level 11 before exploring other multiclasses. Eldritch Strike and 3rd attack is VERY powerful. Yes, unless magical items are dropping it's kind of a bummer you'll only have 2nd level spells to use it on when you first get it, but the latter feature immediately makes your DPR and spike damage top-tier and Eldritch Knight makes your save DCs equivalent to that of dedicated classes even with a modest Intelligence.
    War Magic is going to mostly keep up with 3rd attack - especially with SCAG cantrips which at level 11 add either 2d8, 4d8+Int, or 5d8 if you trigger movement for Booming Blade, to your DPR. Nova damage will be a bit lower when Action Surging, admittedly, but sustained damage will be comparable.

    What saves are you forcing that Eldritch Strike is so immediately critical? It's helpful for save-or-suck like Hold Person (though arguably it only effects the initial, and not ongoing saves for that spell), but you only get a couple of those spells as an EK, and Shatter is only going to do a ton of damage if enemies are grouped favorably. It's helpful, but more helpful than 5th and 6th level spells, or being able to upcast Fireball to level 6 or 7? I'm not sure about that. It's almost better to take EK10 once you have 5-6 levels of a caster MC so you have a good selection of save spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathtongue View Post
    I do understand branching out if you want to use the other features (especially if you rolled high for stats and there aren't any magical items dropping) but I don't understand branching out before then if you took 6 or more levels of Eldritch Knight.
    You likely want 7 for War Magic, 8 for another ASI, and maybe 9 for Indomitable and keeping your slot progression for MC.
    Last edited by CBAnaesthesia; 2017-09-04 at 09:59 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sans. View Post
    Really? You don't like any of Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion or True Seeing?
    Oh yeah, forgot Contingency, but the rest I can easily live without, especially the damaging spells which would be worse than Animate Objects in most circumstances. And the point is not 'are they good or not', it's 'are they better than imposing disadvantage on the 5th-level spells and a third attack'.

  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Any advice on what to aim for a build if my INT is kind of crummy?

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by dragsaw View Post
    Any advice on what to aim for a build if my INT is kind of crummy?
    Pick spells that do not rely on a your int to be effective. For instance the shield spell is just as effective at int 8 and at int 20.
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by dragsaw View Post
    Any advice on what to aim for a build if my INT is kind of crummy?
    C: booming blade, message
    1: absorb elements, expeditious retreat, shield
    2: blur, darkness

    That should keep you covered up to level 8.

  21. - Top - End - #231
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by dragsaw View Post
    Any advice on what to aim for a build if my INT is kind of crummy?
    Shield, Misty Step, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blur, two levels of Paladin.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Good guide! I never considered playing an EK until I read this.

  23. - Top - End - #233
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Could a case be made that subsequent attacks to someone affected by one of your spells would renew the Disadvantage they have on saves?
    It's an 'always on' effect. It wouldn't stop having an effect just because the thing you're smacking is already under the effect of something like Hold Person.

    Technically, the spell already being in effect counts as being cast 'before the end of your next turn', after all. Or is that too Lawyer-y?

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnightJin View Post
    Could a case be made that subsequent attacks to someone affected by one of your spells would renew the Disadvantage they have on saves?
    It's an 'always on' effect. It wouldn't stop having an effect just because the thing you're smacking is already under the effect of something like Hold Person.

    Technically, the spell already being in effect counts as being cast 'before the end of your next turn', after all. Or is that too Lawyer-y?
    Either way is a valid interpretation of the RAW. It really depends on how strong the DM of the game wants that ability to be. I've tried it both ways, and I prefer to play it the way you proposed.

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by xanderh View Post
    Either way is a valid interpretation of the RAW. It really depends on how strong the DM of the game wants that ability to be. I've tried it both ways, and I prefer to play it the way you proposed.
    It'd make the most sense to me as well. You're hitting them with the same energy that made it harder for them to resist the spell in the first place. Logically, it would follow it would make it harder for them to shake the effects if you keep re-applying that 'debuff'.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    So im considering playing an EK in my current campaign. We just started yesterday but my DM is letting me switch stuff around as we are just starting.

    My group is a Moon Druid (he mostly wants to just transform and beat stuff up as a frontline animal), A Shadow Monk, a Beast Conclave Melee Ranger, and a Trickery Domain Cleric. I've wanted to play a EK for awhile and decided to try it out. I am having trouble deciding if i should just go Ranged though as this group tends to have a lot of melee.

    Currently i'm a str based level 4 v-human (i also didnt realise and have to change no matter what my feat cause can't actually take warcaster at level 1) 18 str 10 dex 14 con 16 int 8 wis 8 cha. Took Warcaster but afterwards realized i can't do this. Defense fighting style too.

    I currently have 3 considerations.. 1 just stay as is and see how I end up liking it. 2 Switch to Dex based and Longbow it up 10,18,12,16,11,8 (less Con as ranged to eventually take resil WIS) taking Sharpshooter level 1 and archery fighting style. I would boost dex to 20 at 6, resil wis at 8, 12/14 finish Int and then 16/19 some random feats or more Cons. Also before you say it I thematically hate x-bows so i won't go for them i'll stick to a bow.

    3rd option.. Just roll some Arcane caster and forget EK for this campaign... (this might be the best for the group but yea..)

    any thoughts would be awesome.

  27. - Top - End - #237
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Khobahi View Post
    So im considering playing an EK in my current campaign. We just started yesterday but my DM is letting me switch stuff around as we are just starting.

    My group is a Moon Druid (he mostly wants to just transform and beat stuff up as a frontline animal), A Shadow Monk, a Beast Conclave Melee Ranger, and a Trickery Domain Cleric. I've wanted to play a EK for awhile and decided to try it out. I am having trouble deciding if i should just go Ranged though as this group tends to have a lot of melee.

    Currently i'm a str based level 4 v-human (i also didnt realise and have to change no matter what my feat cause can't actually take warcaster at level 1) 18 str 10 dex 14 con 16 int 8 wis 8 cha. Took Warcaster but afterwards realized i can't do this. Defense fighting style too.

    I currently have 3 considerations.. 1 just stay as is and see how I end up liking it. 2 Switch to Dex based and Longbow it up 10,18,12,16,11,8 (less Con as ranged to eventually take resil WIS) taking Sharpshooter level 1 and archery fighting style. I would boost dex to 20 at 6, resil wis at 8, 12/14 finish Int and then 16/19 some random feats or more Cons. Also before you say it I thematically hate x-bows so i won't go for them i'll stick to a bow.

    3rd option.. Just roll some Arcane caster and forget EK for this campaign... (this might be the best for the group but yea..)

    any thoughts would be awesome.
    Going ranged or going full caster are both great options. Going STR melee is good too, but given party composition there's not much you can help with (other members may outdamage you, and you wouldn't be able to tank since they'd be aiming for the more fragile guys).

    If you do go ranged, you should do your best to save your reactions for Shield/Absorb Elements and pick some other defensive spells as you go (Mirror Image, Haste, etc.). You want to do this to disencourage folks from attacking you, and also to survive longer since CON12 is hard, especially at the beginning of a game. Later on you can pick Tough instead of boosting your CON, and it will be a solid move.

    Also make sure the cleric can buff you when needed, especially with Bless since with Sharpshooter you can wreck real havoc.

  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Going ranged or going full caster are both great options. Going STR melee is good too, but given party composition there's not much you can help with (other members may outdamage you, and you wouldn't be able to tank since they'd be aiming for the more fragile guys).

    If you do go ranged, you should do your best to save your reactions for Shield/Absorb Elements and pick some other defensive spells as you go (Mirror Image, Haste, etc.). You want to do this to disencourage folks from attacking you, and also to survive longer since CON12 is hard, especially at the beginning of a game. Later on you can pick Tough instead of boosting your CON, and it will be a solid move.

    Also make sure the cleric can buff you when needed, especially with Bless since with Sharpshooter you can wreck real havoc.
    Yea I think with the current party im going to either go ranged or an Evoker Wizard. Staying EK i might go Eladrin, and getting resil dex at 4 to go from 17-18 dex and getting sharpshooter at 8. This gives me the rotating cantrip on long rest as well as a once per short rest free misty step. Losing the extra feat doesnt seem to bad the way i'll use it.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    I think the "Spear Mastery" Feat in Unearthed Arcana would be excellent for a strength EK.

    Damage increase to 1d8/1d10 with weapon bond means you can throw your spear and have it return to you causing more damage than any other thrown weapon.

    You can extend the reach of the spear by 5 feet using a bonus action. Combine this with booming blade.

    Plus setting the spear to receive a charge is pretty awesome too.

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    Default Re: Bellator Arcana: The Eldritch Knight's guide

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleon_in_rag View Post
    I think the "Spear Mastery" Feat in Unearthed Arcana would be excellent for a strength EK.

    Damage increase to 1d8/1d10 with weapon bond means you can throw your spear and have it return to you causing more damage than any other thrown weapon.

    You can extend the reach of the spear by 5 feet using a bonus action. Combine this with booming blade.

    Plus setting the spear to receive a charge is pretty awesome too.
    Booming blade still only has a reach of 5 feet.

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