The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

[Jasdoif]

In that case....

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Proposed Items for Index 5.10
🍌On the (Un)importance of Calling Out Rules "I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible."	#808	2011/10/06	No vote required, will be included.
🍌Miko's Unchanging Role "Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed."	#559	2008/05/29	No vote required, will be included.

With nothing eligible to be voted on, there will be no vote; both entries are now in the Index.

[Ron Miel]

The Giant's reply to several people who thought 1157 contained a deliberate reference to Portal.

Coincidence; I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out. I picked blue because I had already picked orange in the previous comic and I wanted the two colors to be maximally different to avoid confusion as to where characters are standing. And I didn't want either barrier to be red (because I used that for the Anti-Life Shell) or yellow (which I used for the Godsmoot barrier).

In all likelihood, the high degree of visual contrast between orange-blue is the reason Portal used it as well. The only other color combos with the same degree of contrast are yellow-purple and red-green. And yellow tends to be harder to see, while red-green is too associated with Christmas.

[Caerulea]

Include.

—Caerulea

[Kish]

Include .

[Doran]

Include . - Doran

[Ron Miel]

Just noticed this in the rules:

Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Note the redundant lines there, which can be safely deleted. To reduce clutter.

Also :

Rule F: The index-keeper (Jasdoif) has the job of updating the index in keeping with thread-goer consensus.

I think this should be changed to

... (currently Jasdoif) ...

The role of index keeper has changed hands before, it might change again. So the rules shouldn't say that Jasdoif is the index keeper.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Giant's reply to several people who thought 1157 contained a deliberate reference to Portal.

Also goes to show, if it was in question, that he didn't choose the colors based on what effects they would have in a prismatic wall or prismatic sphere.

[Peelee]

Just noticed this in the rules:

Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Note the redundant lines there, which can be safely deleted. To reduce clutter.

Reducing clutter is important. To reflect this, I vote that we add "This reduces clutter" to the end of the segment Ron Miel posted.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, so we'd be looking at....

Reading Too Much Into It
🍌The Colors of the Council of Clans' Barriers Are Not a Portal Reference "I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out."	#1157	2019/03/01

(Reminder to self: alliteration or not, "Councilor Cloistering Constructions" is way too unclear compared to "Barriers".)

---

Note the redundant lines there, which can be safely deleted. To reduce clutter.

I checked with the Department of Redundancy Department again, and their stance hasn't changed (though they were perfectly happy to repeat what they said): The Index guidelines aren't presented in quotes, so the repetition doesn't violate the rule that applies to quotes.

The role of index keeper has changed hands before, it might change again. So the rules shouldn't say that Jasdoif is the index keeper.

But I am the Index keeper...to exactly the same degree as ThePhantasm was. (Admittedly I was wondering if anyone would notice when I simply changed the name with the new thread when I took over curating...five days away from five years ago. I'm marginally disappointed that it took this long for anyone to say anything )

[Lissou]

Reducing clutter is important. To reflect this, I vote that we add "This reduces clutter" to the end of the segment Ron Miel posted.

I agree, but then we should clarify that the quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

[Peelee]

I agree, but then we should clarify that the quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Ah, let's just put in 20 GOTO 10 and call it a day.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah, let's just put in 20 GOTO 10 and call it a day.

Do you want to get attacked by velociraptors?

[Jasdoif]

Do you want to get attacked by velociraptors?

They may have to wait for the polymorph victim who curates this thread and still remembers GOSUBs.

[Peelee]

Do you want to get attacked by velociraptors?

I don't know if he's never read the book or just references the movie more because it makes for more universal jokes, but the T-Rex in the book was way more terrifying.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Seems like a quote worth including; I certainly would have been swayed by other posters that it was a Portal reference otherwise.

Reducing clutter is important. To reflect this, I vote that we add "This reduces clutter" to the end of the segment Ron Miel posted.

This sensible proposal seems like a proposal which is sensible and should be voted on without delay. All in the name of reducing clutter, of course.

[martianmister]

I think this should be changed. The role of index keeper has changed hands before, it might change again.

...are you planning a coup?

[Squire Doodad]

...are you planning a coup?

It's something that is arguably not a coup, and might be seen as not a coup in court of law, but is very much like a coup and occurs in a coup-like fashion, though many would claim that it is actually a group of people with a pork roast being eaten for dinner with a side of carrots.

[Peelee]

I'm planning a coup once Ron Miel and Squire Doodad execute their plans. A blitzkrieg immediately after their milquetoast fomentations with an iron fist guiding everything shall bring a swift victory, along with the ability to withstand further insurrection. It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm planning a coup once Ron Miel and Squire Doodad execute their plans. A blitzkrieg immediately after their milquetoast fomentations with an iron fist guiding everything shall bring a swift victory, along with the ability to withstand further insurrection. It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.

I just might put that last pair of lines in my signature
So you would rule Jim W. Garland style, with an Iron -yet caring- Fist? Or are you the "Mad King Max Sacur would like to request you take it down a notch" type?

[Peelee]

I just might put that last pair of lines in my signature
So you would rule Jim W. Garland style, with an Iron -yet caring- Fist? Or are you the "Mad King Max Sacur would like to request you take it down a notch" type?

Knowing nothing about either one, I'd say the first. Id like to introduce a new form of monarchy, in which the iron fist is attached to a laissez-faire body.

[Squire Doodad]

Knowing nothing about either one, I'd say the first. Id like to introduce a new form of monarchy, in which the iron fist is attached to a laissez-faire body.

First one is a reference to Garland the decent guy (tm) of 8 Bit Theater fame (he's called Jim W. Garland at some point, and he runs a campaign with the motto), while the latter is more of a monarch being terrible in virtually all ways. Really just put it there for a comparison and to test out a pun of a name.
Also, yes on the sig?

[Peelee]

First one is a reference to Garland the decent guy (tm) of 8 Bit Theater fame, while the latter is more of being terrible in virtually all ways. Really just put it there for a comparison and to test out a pun of a name.
Also, yes on the sig?

Oh, my bad, I have a standing belief that anyone can sig anything I say anytime. I don't really see it as different from being about to quote me via the forum quote function, and I figure it's a good way to help make sure I don't make an ass out of myself (or at least be a reminder if when I make an ass out of myself so I can try to be better). Someone, I think maybe dtilque (apologies to the real forumite if I got that wrong!) actually has my standing permission in their sig, so I just assume most people know. And you know what they say about assuming, it's easy and I'm lazy so that's a match made in heaven there.

Also, I like 8BT Garland. I'd probably be a less competent version of that. I think everybody would appreciate it.

[Squire Doodad]

Also, I like 8BT Garland. I'd probably be a less competent version of that. I think everybody would appreciate it.

Former Royal Knight means great pension benefits, well liked by the populace, friends with the king and great knowledge of various culinary skills. What's not to like about Garland?
I'm confused as to how you plan to go about the "less competent" idea, but I think we're using too much space on this thread that seems fairly serious most of the time.

[Jasdoif]

Id like to introduce a new form of monarchy, in which the iron fist is attached to a laissez-faire body.

Sort of a night-watchdragon state in the wrist?

I'm confused as to how you plan to go about the "less competent" idea....

Eating his own cooking, perhaps.

[Peelee]

I'm confused as to how you plan to go about the "less competent" idea

One does not simply plan greatness.

Sort of a night-watchdragon state in the wrist?

See, the banana gets it.

[Squire Doodad]

Id like to introduce a new form of monarchy, in which the iron fist is attached to a laissez-faire body.

Does this mean there is an autonomous economy with an autonomous limb?

[Jasdoif]

In what's not surprising....

---

Proposed Items for Index 5.11
🍌The Colors of the Council of Clans' Barriers Are Not a Portal Reference "I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out."	#1157	2019/03/01	No vote required, will be included.

With nothing eligible to be voted on, there will be no vote; the entry is now in the Index.

---

In what's kinda surprising, that quote has made the "Story, Plot and Characters" too big to sit side-by-side with the "Writing" spoiler in the same post....While it's certainly nice to see my auto-paging and auto-table-of-contenting code handled this without intervention, as intended, the middle post having a single category suggests it's time to talk about making new categories and/or recategorizing and/or moving (sub)categories around. Especially since....

Spoiler: Table of Contents

Show

• FIRST POST
  
  • Latest Additions
  • Alignment
    
    • General Information
    • D&D Alignment
    • Specific Characters
      
      • Evil Characters
      • Good Characters
      • Neutral Characters
  • Art
    
    • General
    • Drawing
    • Art & Magic
    • Art & Merchandise
  • D&D Rules and Explanations
    
    • Accuracy
    • Characters: Items and Stats
      
      • Order of the Stick
      • Other Characters/Creatures
    • Combat Scenes
• SECOND POST
  
  • Story, Plot, and Characters
    
    • General Information
    • Character Development and Backstory
      
      • The Order of the Stick
      • Vector Legion
      • Other Characters
    • Vampirism
    • The Gates and their History
    • Familicide
    • Calendars, Dates, Maps
    • Culture, Religion and the Afterlife
    • Reading Too Much Into It
• THIRD POST
  
  • Writing
    
    • Storytelling Mistakes?
    • Plot Holes
    • Writing Process
    • Tools and Logistics
    • Forum and Reader Reactions
    • References and Influences
    • Story Development
    • Reflections from the Author
    • Real World Intent
    • Character Naming
    • The Story as a D&D Spoof
  • Supporting the Strip
    
  • Spoilers from Book/PDF Content
    
    • Start of Darkness
      
    • Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails
      
    • How the Paladin Got His Scar
      
    • Kickstarter Bonus PDFs
      
  • Thread History
    

...the "Story, Plot, and Characters" and "Writing" categories each have about ten subcategories.

[Lissou]

Could divide it into "Story/Plot" and "Characters", unless all quotes applied to all three?

[Jasdoif]

Could divide it into "Story/Plot" and "Characters", unless all quotes applied to all three?

Well, there's some interplay going on there; but let me see what happens if I move "Character Development and Backstory" into its own category....

...that's enough to fit the entire Index into two posts instead of three. Neato!

---

Here's the sections that would be affected; what's everyone think?

Spoiler: Table of Contents

Show

• FIRST POST
  
  • Latest Additions
  • Alignment
    
    • General Information
    • D&D Alignment
    • Specific Characters
      
      • Evil Characters
      • Good Characters
      • Neutral Characters
  • Art
    
    • General
    • Drawing
    • Art & Magic
    • Art & Merchandise
  • D&D Rules and Explanations
    
    • Accuracy
    • Characters: Items and Stats
      
      • Order of the Stick
      • Other Characters/Creatures
    • Combat Scenes
  • Story, Plot, and Characters
    
    • General Information
    • Vampirism
    • The Gates and their History
    • Familicide
    • Calendars, Dates, Maps
    • Culture, Religion and the Afterlife
    • Reading Too Much Into It
• SECOND POST
  
  • Character Development and Backstory
    
    • The Order of the Stick
    • Vector Legion
    • Other Characters
  • Writing
    
    • Storytelling Mistakes?
    • Plot Holes
    • Writing Process
    • Tools and Logistics
    • Forum and Reader Reactions
    • References and Influences
    • Story Development
    • Reflections from the Author
    • Real World Intent
    • Character Naming
    • The Story as a D&D Spoof
  • Supporting the Strip
    
  • Spoilers from Book/PDF Content
    
    • Start of Darkness
      
    • Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails
      
    • How the Paladin Got His Scar
      
    • Kickstarter Bonus PDFs
      
  • Thread History
    

Spoiler: Story, Plot, and Characters

Show

General Information
Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places	#969	2014/12/01
There will be seven books (from the main online comic)	#910	2013/08/15
Dragon Continuity The Dragon Magazine strips and Gygax magazine strips exist in a separate continuity from the OOTS strips.	#863	2012/11/25
Some Thoughts on Visuals and Story People get invested in the story, not the art, of a comic.	#838	2012/02/18
More Prequels? The total number of planned prequel stories is "pretty much fixed"; at least one more as of 09/16/2015.	#804	2011/09/01
Not everything needs a backstory Not everything needs a backstory, or even has an interesting one worth telling.	#729	2010/06/23

Vampirism
Coffin-less Vampires Immediately Turn to Dust When "Killed"	#1131	2018/07/31
Why Most Vampires Don't Get Overwhelmed by Their Host's Memories And why HPoH ( ) did.	#1130	2018/07/28
The Nature of Vampirism "...a negative energy consciousness created in the shape of your own worst impulses, stuffed into your dead body to animate it."	#1112	2018/02/13
HPoH ( ) Didn't Exist Before Durkon Was Vampirized Though he arrived "with certain knowledge, like language and whatever Hel told it to do as she was shoving it in there."	#1112	2018/02/13
Durkon Can't Show HPoH ( ) Fake Memories	#1009	2015/10/19
Malack Chose to Worship Nergal And "shaman" is a descriptive term, not a non-cleric class.	#949	2014/04/19
There is Only One Way that Vampirism Works And nothing that happens with vampires can be assumed to work for other undead. Also, knowledge of how vampirization works is rare, even among clerics.	#949	2014/04/18
Vampires Have Free Will	#949	2014/04/18

The Gates and their History
About Girard's Double Bluff About Girard's double bluff to protect the Gate.	#895	2013/06/21
Soon's Castle Soon built the castle, but did not build Azure City.	#804	2011/09/01
Soon's Gem and Gate Details about Soon's rift and how it is protected. The gate/rift could not be moved. You can shift a gate to another plane, but not another place on this plane.	#801	2011/08/21

Familicide
Familicide How Familicide works. More here.	#879	2012/03/07

Calendars, Dates, Maps
Death of Old Age in OOTS "Eugene literally died of old age. When a person reaches a certain age, the gods roll dice to see what his or her maximum lifespan is going to be, and when the person hits 12:01 on that birthday, they keel over dead from no apparent cause."	#933	2013/12/06
Map of the Western Continent It is constantly changing.	#746	2010/09/12
OOTS Age Range Intended to be early to mid 20s. Durkon is the "dwarf equivalent" of this age range, in his 50s.	#732	2010/07/02
Chronology & Timeline Anything that states a numbered, dated year references the Northern calendar. The Oracle uses the Southern calendar. Further details on timeframe of Belkar's death prophecy included. Some time references in the strip (like the deva's chart) should not be taken too literally.	#725	2010/05/26

Culture, Religion and the Afterlife
On Dwarves, Death, and Dishonor Dwarves know they go to Hel if they die dishonorably, and their culture takes this into account: All dwarves learn how to fight, and consistently living honorably is a solution, even if they die in a normally nonviolent role.	#1004	2015/09/15
The Afterlife Isn't Important to OOTS It's only important that the characters find living preferable to it.	#998	2015/08/17
Spiritual Progress in the Afterlife The afterlife leads down a path of "letting go" of life, including an inability to learn new things.	#998	2015/08/16
The Soul Economy Spirits produce Soul PowerTM in life, which is collected in the afterlife.	#998	2015/08/16
The Purpose of the Godsmoot It's a neutral meeting ground for the gods, who don't meet in person across pantheons anymore. More here, on both Godsmoots in general and the one in the comic in particular.	#998	2015/08/13
How Non-Theistic Religions Work in OOTS More on the Giant's view for D&D in general here and here.	#995	2015/08/01
On Elven and Goblin Deities The Elves worship Western gods in addition to their own. The goblins worshipped no one prior to the ascension of the Dark One.	#978	2015/03/19
Elven Government and Political Relations with the Outside World Why did the elves help Azure City yet not try to stop Tarquin's tyranny? More here	#915	2013/08/29
Class Systems and Careers Also, FYI, Durkon isn't "white."	#882	2013/04/08
Nergal and Undeath Nergal is not against undeath. Malack just doesn't like using the undead as cannon fodder.	#870	2013/02/21
The Rise of the Dark One Spoiler: Start of Darkness Show The other gods lost their one shot to gang up on him and kill him. The Dark One has since been building his power.	#864	2013/01/04
Religions and Deities in OOTS World Background details on who worships whom, and on Thor, Hel, and the Twelve Gods.	#848	2012/04/11
SoD Paladins & Miko's Fall Spoiler: Start of Darkness Show Only the crayon pages are narrative by Redcloak. Not every event is necessarily "seen." Certain scenes are largely shown from Redcloak's perspective. Details of why the paladins who killed Redcloak's people may or may not have fallen, why it doesn't matter, and how showing it would have cheapened the effect of Miko's fall later.	#706	2010/03/15
On Evil Characters and Resurrection Evil characters are not discouraged / prohibited from raising the dead in OOTSverse. Spoiler: Start of Darkness Show Right-Eye's family wasn't raised because Redcloak doesn't control Team Evil's finances to pay for resurrection, Xykon does.	#566	2008/06/15

Reading Too Much Into It
🍌The Colors of the Council of Clan Barriers Are Not a Portal Reference "I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out."	#1157	2019/03/01
About the Lizardfolk Prostitute in #676 It was a joke about then-recent 4th Edition D&D's Dragonborn art. "It is not a trans gender individual at all (because it is a cis-female)...."	#1143	2018/10/09
Repeated Strip Titles are Accidental	#1088	2017/08/04
HPoH ( ) Made a Tactical Error in #1009 Durkon "showed him Roy telling him the story about what happened with Eric. That's it."	#1009	2015/10/19
The Comic (not) Commenting on D&D Playstyles "There is more important thematic ground in this world for me to cover than whether or not people powergame."	#995	2015/07/30
On the Title "Blood Runs in the Family" It's a composite of two synonymous expressions, "'[Trait] runs in the family' and '[trait] runs in the blood'".	#991	2015/06/27
Earth isn't in the Rift "Earth will never show up."	#945	2014/02/15
On Blackwing, Rifts, and Memory	#944	2014/02/10
Is Thog Mentally Handicapped? No, he is not. See also here (on why a mentally handicapped character will not be portrayed)	#935	2013/12/30
Malack's Chamber Plans This was intended to use the imagery of factory farming, not the Holocaust. Malack plans to create a vampire ruling class.	#875	2013/03/01
Malack's Vampirism and LGBT Malack's condition is not an allegory for LGBT.	#875	2013/03/01
Belkar's Jokes Belkar making a joke about something does not make it so.	#786	2011/04/11
Current Politics There are no references to current politics in the strip beyond those which readers invent themselves.	#732	2010/07/02
TV Tropes Rich is aware it exists. No, he doesn't use it for ideas or reference it in any way in the comic.	#705	2010/03/04
Hidden Meanings Not everything in the comic has one.	#667	2009/06/02

Spoiler: Character Development and Backstory

Show

Note: For character stats and items, see the D&D rules section.

The Order of the Stick
On Haley, Honesty and History "...She literally says she is going to miss being honest with Crystal."	#981	2015/04/28
OOTS were Originally Going to Wander the Dungeon Forever Which changed partly for the joke potential in towns and wilderness.	#980	2015/04/26
The Main Cast were Devised for Joke Potential "Silly jokes for Elan, angry jokes for Belkar, sarcasm for Roy, etc."	#980	2015/04/26
Haley is Bisexual	#972	2015/01/13
Belkar Turned Down the Gnome Merchant in #969 "Whether or not it would be immoral for Belkar to go on the date is...less important than how Belkar feels about going on the date." Also discusses Haley's morals.	#969	2014/12/01
Haley's Decision to Stop Using Gendered Insults It's growth of her character. She's been trying to be a better person since being with Elan.	#959	2014/07/31
Why V Didn't Kill Laurin Character growth: V is learning not to kill "from a purely consequentialist viewpoint."	#935	2013/12/20
Belkar and Bloodfeast Belkar's concerns about 'Bloodfeast' were part of his character development, not an effort to make V look bad.	#932	2013/11/20
The Dream Runes Elan's victory as character development. Also, Nale was the only LG member affected by the runes.	#893	2013/06/11
V is a Vegetarian	#891	2013/06/03
What Belkar Saw What Belkar saw while affected by the dream runes.	#890	2013/05/25
V's Children The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.	#882	2013/04/09
Haley's Leadership A greedy self-centered rogue becomes leader. Belkar and Haley are the only one's who questioned her leadership skills during the Azure City Resistance.	#882	2013/04/07
Durkon and Malack's Breakup Durkon reacts not only to Malack's vampirism, but to his alliance with the Linear Guild. He knows that Malack does not know Belkar isn't innocent.	#872	2013/02/26
Parental Problems Parents are in the story only to introduce conflict. That fathers are included and mothers are absent for the human characters is simply a coincidence.	#815	2011/11/18

Vector Legion
The Inspiration for Tarquin was Elan	#980	2015/04/26
Tarquin's Adventuring Party is Named "Vector Legion"	#945	2014/02/17
Drama and Breaking a Character "Drama is all about taking characters and pushing them until they break, one way or the other. If a character can't be broken, then they have no place as a main character in a story." More here.	#934	2013/12/08
Malack is not Paranoid	#906	2013/07/30

Other Characters
On Hinjo and Miko Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar Show "Cousin" is an informal term of address, they aren't legally related.	#1122	2018/05/21
On Hilgya and Her Husband Ivan "...their marriage was never consummated and he probably was completely unaware that she was forced into it..."	#999	2015/08/20
About Thirden He made an effort to improve his diction over the years, and "Squeaky" is a nickname about his singing voice. Also, he's not Durkon's biological uncle.	#991	2015/06/22
Bozzok and Crystal's Falling Out Bozzok told Crystal she couldn't think for herself; Crystal proved otherwise.	#981	2015/04/29
Miko and Kilkil Developed Differently than Planned	#980	2015/04/26
O-Chul Offset His Low Charisma with Social Skill	#980	2015/04/25
The MitD ( ) Reveal is a Crucial Part of the Story "...It will happen when it's time for it to happen. "	#980	2015/04/24
The Secret Society of the Sapphire Guard A subset of the Twelve Gods' clerics and paladins; Every member had some cleric or paladin levels.	#980	2015/04/24
Hel Has No Living Worshippers "That means literally not one single living person, ever."	#962	2014/09/11
On Julio rescuing Tarquin's Brides-to-be Julio rescued the potential brides from Tarquin before their weddings, not after. Spoiler: Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails Show Virginia is one of the rescued brides-to-be.	#932	2013/11/21
Kubota and Hinjo Why Kubota still wanted to kill Hinjo after the other nobles had given up.	#891	2013/06/09
The Azurite Nobles and Hinjo The nobles thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.	#891	2013/06/06
Scrying in the Desert It was Zz'dtri who scryed on the Order after they found Girard's illusion.	#870	2013/02/18
Miko's Popularity Miko's story was not "cut short" because of fan opinions - it was precisely the length intended. Rich does not make storytelling decisions based on finances.	#863	2012/12/18
Miko and Shojo Shojo was the "tape" that held Miko's character together for so long. He was responsible for much in Miko that was good/positive.	#815	2011/11/18
V's Splices There won't be a prequel book about them, and Rich hasn't developed a backstory for them. Just 3 evil souls.	#801	2011/08/21
Sarah Met Eugene When She Was Nineteen	#650	2009/05/02
Miko's Unchanging Role "Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed."	#559	2008/05/29

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Seems A-Ok to me, unless someone can come up with even better subdivisions.