The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

[Yendor]

It is no longer relevant to Vampire Durkon (or any known vampire in the comic, for that matter), so is only for world-building purposes. And as the Giant noted that the rules explicitly allow for non-theistic clerics, even that bit of world-building is accessible via SRD.

Agreed. We don't even need the SRD. We have had explicitly non-theistic clerics in the comic.

[Peelee]

Agreed. We don't even need the SRD. We have had explicitly non-theistic clerics in the comic.

Even better!

[Ron Miel]

Agreed. We don't even need the SRD. We have had explicitly non-theistic clerics in the comic.

We've had one since strip #80.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We've had one since strip #80.

Cleric may be stretching it a little there.

I also agree that the quote is no longer relevant.

[Gwynfrid]

Meant to do this a few days ago, but I got sidetracked....

I propose we remove the following:

Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.	#883	04/09/2013

It is no longer relevant to Vampire Durkon (or any known vampire in the comic, for that matter), so is only for world-building purposes. And as the Giant noted that the rules explicitly allow for non-theistic clerics, even that bit of world-building is accessible via SRD.

I agree with removal.

[Keltest]

I also agree with removal.

[Lissou]

I too agree with removal.

[Jasdoif]

OK, so it looks like....

Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
Durkon's Mass Death Ward Rich did not even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.	#806	09/19/2011

One other person thinks the entry should mention what the post says about SRD spells being common knowledge....

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Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.	#883	04/09/2013

And six people think that entry should be removed?

[Peelee]

Oh, thanks for that! I, too, think it'd be worthwhile to add the portion about only SRD spells being common knowledge to that entry.

[Gwynfrid]

Oh, thanks for that! I, too, think it'd be worthwhile to add the portion about only SRD spells being common knowledge to that entry.

Debates about rules in the comic feel like they belong in the distant past, but I agree with this change.

[Jasdoif]

Huh, really thought we'd have heard more about removing a quote. Oh well, no sense delaying any further!

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CALLING FOR CONFIRMATION VOTE ON A QUOTE

The inclusion of the entry Vampire Durkon can Cast Spells has been challenged; on the basis that the implied explanation of "Vampire Durkon" being a deity-less cleric does not in fact apply, and the general existence of deity-less clerics has since been confirmed in the comic. This vote will determine whether it remains in the Index or not.

Since we've had confusion on this before, the vote will be for keep or remove, rather than yes or no.

• Please bold your vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
• The usual suggestion to avoid discussing quotes during the vote does not apply in this case.
• Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes to keep than votes to remove.

Voting will be open until July 1st, 9PM EDT.

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I'll get to updating the Durkon's Mass Death Ward entry to include the part about only SRD spells being common knowledge after the vote is done (so if the vote results in removal, I can make a single update of the Index)

[Peelee]

Remove
Wheeeeeeee!

[Gift Jeraff]

I think the quote should
[X] Leave





I mean Remove it.

[Zherog]

I love Rich's dripping sarcasm in that reply...

I've just gone back and forth in my own head on this three times now while typing out this reply. My initial thought was to remove it. Then as I thought about it, it occurred to me that the initial comment that spurred the beautiful use of sarcasm had as much to do with how quickly our favorite dwarf was casting spells after his transformation as it did with the fact he was casting at all.

And maybe there's some room to discuss the merits of the quote in that light, but for now I'm going to stick with my initial instinct and vote to remove - something I don't do very often, actually.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

After looking at Kalmegil's posts, I think I see that the quote has its own merits. Plus I want to vote Remain Keep. In the end, I also don't really see much of a reward to removing quotes.

[Keltest]

I vote to REMOVE it.

[Ron Miel]

Since we've already had a number of people supporting removal, and none asking for it to stay, doesn't that qualify it foe removal without a vote?

Anyway, since we're having one, I vote remove.

[Peelee]

Since we've already had a number of people supporting removal, and none asking for it to stay, doesn't that qualify it foe removal without a vote?

Anyway, since we're having one, I vote remove.

I'm not completely positive, but I believe removing a quote requires a higher threshold than including one. Informal default is to include and remain, isn't it? Votes are only called when include or remain are challenged.

[Lissou]

I vote Remove

[littlebum2002]

I just feel bad voting to remove anything after what happened last week, so I'm voting remain keep

[Jasdoif]

Since we've already had a number of people supporting removal, and none asking for it to stay, doesn't that qualify it foe removal without a vote?

The conditions under which we have a vote haven't changed since you asked on the last page:

As the thread stands right now, there are three cases where a vote is called for:

• A quote in an update cycle has received support from less than two-thirds, but at least one-third, of the posts discussing it; and I receive two PMs requesting that a vote be called on the quote to ensure the consensus is to include the quote.
• I reorganize the Index and there are objections (Rule F1).
• I decide a vote on something not delineated in the rules is warranted. (This includes any removal of quotes, since we have no Index rules on the matter and the general thread curation rules explicitly forbid me from making executive decisions on what posts are or are not included.

And for whatever reason, there's been very little impetus for formulating removal rules....And without such rules in place (like we have for adding new quotes), there's no consensus to support fast-tracking things without a vote (like we have for adding new quotes); and I'm not comfortable with taking entries out of the Index solely on the basis of when I get tired of waiting feel no further discussion is forthcoming, to say nothing of the executive-decision nature my timing would fall under.

So until we have a such process in place for removals, I'm going to keep running to ensure there is actually consensus for removing an individual entry before I remove an individual entry.

[Zherog]

I just feel bad voting to remove anything after what happened last week, so I'm voting remain keep

What happened last week?

[Lissou]

What happened last week?

I assume it's a reference to a world event that involves a country leaving a group of countries.

[Kalmegil]

Keep.

None of the reasons proposed for removal strike me as convincing. The quote clearly comports with the rules of this thread, is informative, and is non-duplicative. Its removal would lessen the index to no gain.

In fact, this strikes me as exactly the type of quote best suited to indexing. The Giant wrote a response to criticism about the comic (only part of which is based on non-theistic clerics). The underlying question may arise again in forum discussion. Why on earth would we remove it?

[Zherog]

I assume it's a reference to a world event that involves a country leaving a group of countries.

Ah, yes. I was stuck thinking it was a reference to something on the forums, for some reason.

[Peelee]

Keep.

None of the reasons proposed for removal strike me as convincing. The quote clearly comports with the rules of this thread, is informative, and is non-duplicative. Its removal would lessen the index to no gain.

In fact, this strikes me as exactly the type of quote best suited to indexing. The Giant wrote a response to criticism about the comic (only part of which is based on non-theistic clerics). The underlying question may arise again in forum discussion. Why on earth would we remove it?

Because if you remove snark from the comment, his response is to invoke the 3.5 rules, which are delineated in the SRD. Even then, as previously shown, we have explicitly non-theistoc clerics casting spells in the comic. If through underlying question rises again, we can show in-comic evidence that it is allowed.

Since you claim that the quote would lessen the Index. I am forced to assume you believe the quote adds to the Index. Tell me, what does it add?

[Ron Miel]

The conditions under which we have a vote haven't changed since you asked on the last page.

Yeah, I looked, but it didn't seem to apply. It didn't match "support from less than two-thirds, but at least one-third " because ALL the discussion favoured removal. And obviously it wasn't a re-organisation.

I just assumed that you would apply the same standards for a removal vote as an inclusion one. Obviously I was mistaken.

[snowblizz]

I'm in favour of keep.

Because.

[Yendor]

Remove it.

[Kalmegil]

Because if you remove snark from the comment, his response is to invoke the 3.5 rules, which are delineated in the SRD. Even then, as previously shown, we have explicitly non-theistoc clerics casting spells in the comic. If through underlying question rises again, we can show in-comic evidence that it is allowed.

"If you remove what the Giant said, it's only stuff someone else said" doesn't strike me as particularly strong argument in favor removal. Not only that, your characterization of the content of the quote is wrong. The quote not only cites the SRD, it also tells us that the Giant used that portion of the SRD in plotting out Durkula's spell usage after he turned. It's also worth noting that before the Giant posted on the topic, people were disagreeing about whether or not the SRD allowed Durkula to cast spells at that time.

The non-theistic clerics present in the comic do not directly address whether Durkula should lose his spells upon awakening. To answer this question without the quote, you have to basically recreate it from scratch. And unless that's done by the Giant, it's just one forum viewpoint among many. The Giant resolved an argument using the SRD and his unique knowledge that he relied on his particular interpretation of the SRD.

A quote from the Giant saying X is not redundant with a three-point argument relying on a non-universally accepted interpretation of the SRD. It's like saying a clear statement of the Pythagorean theorem is redundant because it can be derived from other axioms and theorems.

Since you claim that the quote would lessen the Index. I am forced to assume you believe the quote adds to the Index. Tell me, what does it add?

It adds the Giant's direct statement about an issue that, until that statement was made, was in dispute. That's what the index is for.

Now how about someone state how this quote doesn't fit squarely within the thread rules. Or better yet, stop rehashing all the decisions that have already been made. It's freaking exhausting to have people repeatedly pecking away at the index. Why are people spending their time looking to remove quotes about the comic from the index?

ETA: Specifically, the SRD says vampire clerics can still cast spells. It doesn't say they retain the spells they had when they died. The Giant's post implicitly makes it clear that he is interpreting the SRD such that vampires do retain the spells they had when they died. That's information not available without the quote.