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2016-06-29, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
There is no interaction though. We know vampire durkon can cast spells immediately because we see him casting spells immediately. By RAW, vampires become non-theist clerics who don't have any down time between when they turn and when they can cast spells. But Rich isn't following RAW, and Durkon did not become a non-theist cleric. We can make an assumption at this point that the lack of down time is still part of Rich's vampirism, but the quote in question does not deal with how his vampirism is different from RAW, by design. Remember that at that point Rich was still hiding the reveal of Durkon's possession.
Also, I want to apologize to the banana for making you keep posting a summary of what were voting over. Frankly, this debate should have happened when people were proposing the thing for removal.Last edited by Keltest; 2016-06-29 at 02:23 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Where does it say that? RAW addresses what spells remain prepared when Raised or Resurrected. The Vampire entry does not say anything one way or the other.
Frankly, this debate should have happened when people were proposing the thing for removal.
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2016-06-29, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
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2016-06-29, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Well I guess my surprise at the lack of discussion was warranted, it just hadn't happened yet Here's a reminder for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:
I realized a particular complicating factor here is what the Giant said about the post later:
I can certainly see the possibility for walking away from that quote with the impression that the key paragraph in the earlier quote shouldn't actually apply to the comic...just as I can see the possibility that the "not 100% true" part might just be the integral role of deities of undeath in the process, especially since deity conversion might not be guaranteed.
But ultimately, the vote comes down to whether the community as a whole finds the entry worth keeping or not...and we have no strict guidelines for what makes an entry worth having in the Index, hence the vote.
I've specifically exempted the "avoid discussing the quotes during the vote" on removals for precisely that reason; without any established timing procedure (or procedure in general) there's no advance notice on when these removal discussions could happen, and cutting off discussion because of mind reading failure on the part of our contributors (one of the Plant traits is immunity to mind-affecting effects after all, which many mind reading effects are) rather than because people didn't know there was a discussion going on...isn't a risk I find comfortable.
Requoting myself for the summary doesn't really rise to the point of inconvenience for me; and it certainly pales in comparison of the possibility of undercutting everyone who wanted an entry included in the first place on the basis of my timing.Last edited by Jasdoif; 2016-06-29 at 02:47 PM.
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-06-29, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Sadly, no. I was referencing this. I have always maintained that the show transcended the strip.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-06-30, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I vote remove.
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2016-06-30, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
What do the exit polls show so far?
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2016-06-30, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Last edited by Peelee; 2016-06-30 at 01:53 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-06-30, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-06-30, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Remove. And include the new quote about the O-Chul story.
Ares - Music and sounds system for roleplaying
Avatar by Rich Burlew.
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2016-07-01, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I vote to keep the quote in question.
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2016-07-01, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
And for our thrilling(?) conclusion....
- Vampire Durkon can Cast Spells failed to remain included (11 for, 11 against; which fails to meet the +2 margin for inclusion).
The entry has been removed from the Index.
...OK, I actually ended up adding a second entry in the D&D Rules section for it, rather than modify the prior entry:
Accuracy Only SRD (Core) Spells are Common Knowledge
"...and everything else is 'obscure/non-existent' unless someone has researched it."#806 09/19/2011
Also, we had a new quote come across while the vote was happening; did everyone see this?
And finally....Removal procedures, do we need to formalize them? It seems someone's confused by them in some way or another every time a removal vote happens, but if I recall correctly only once was there any momentum on attempting to arrive at general rules governing them (that ultimately didn't arrive anywhere concrete). If there's no actual concern, that's fine; but it looks more and more like an unlikely assumption each time.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-01, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
New quote seems fine, and I'm uncertain about formalizing rules on removals. It does cause confusion, but is also fairly uncommon and there's also the failure to succesfully formalize already. On principle, I'm against enforcing extra work on others when i don't think it will come to fruition.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-01, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Sure, add the quote. On a related note:
This is way out of date, since the swag has been available for ages. Probably add a note about the Belkar PDF being available and the possibility of others.Assistant Treasurer of the Haley fan club
Crewman of the Bandana fan club
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2016-07-01, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
We don't need to formalize removal procedures beyond stopping the senseless weighted majority requirement for keeping a vote that was already added. We just changed the index based on an event vote. Action should require at least a majority.
ETA: Also, I don't think the current rules support the interpretation of requiring a supermajority to keep an existing quote in the index. That rule is for adding quotes, not removing them. The rules were voted on, and until a removal rule is voted on, this ill-supported interpretation should not be used to favor the faction that has a narrow view of what should be in the index.Last edited by Kalmegil; 2016-07-01 at 11:26 PM.
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2016-07-01, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Agreed that a tie should not remove a quote.
Registering again my personal view that removal should be formalized as not a thing that happens in any event unless directly requested by Rich, though I am aware that this will not at any point be a popular view on removal.
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2016-07-02, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
If number of votes matter here, let it be known that I agree with everything Kalmegil and SaintRidley just said. The vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "don't change" makes sense to me, the vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "non-inclusion, whether it's already been included or not" does not at all, except as a result of some people's misreading Rich's earlier posts to indicate a desire for as little as possible to be indexed.
Last edited by Kish; 2016-07-02 at 12:50 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-07-02, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I also agree with 'maintaining the status quo' as a better way to lean for votes than 'non-inclusion'.
The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
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2016-07-02, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
While I think the antagonistic tone here was rather unnecessary, I agree that removing with less than a majority doesn't feel right. I also believe we do need to formalize a removal procedure, since if we don't, this contentious debate will show up again. I'd rather have a tedious debate over rules now, once and for all, as opposed to every time somebody suggests a removal.
... And I agree about removing the Kickstarter swag quote.
EDIT - Also, I think the quote about the O'chul story should be included.Last edited by Gwynfrid; 2016-07-02 at 06:40 AM.
DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2016-07-02, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Personally, I also thought going into this that the removers would need a majority in order to remove the quote, not the people who wanted the quote to stay. In my opinion, I feel that especially in the case of a tie things should stay as they are, not change.
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2016-07-02, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
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2016-07-02, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-03, 03:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Last edited by Emanick; 2016-07-03 at 03:26 AM.
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2016-07-03, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Well, looks like we've a quote for the next update cycle!...which is highly convenient since the two-month deadline for the update cycle will be only ten days from now.
"How the Paladin Got His Scar" is Almost as Long as "On the Origins of PCs"
"...and will probably get a full book release of some sort (i.e. print and PDF)."#1041 06/29/2016 Tentative, appears will be included without vote.
As for removal procedures...Seems there's widespread agreement that it should take more than an even vote to remove an entry. I see a lot of what looks like implication that a removal should require the same +2 margin an addition requires, too...But there's a bit more to it then that. So, for clarity in vision, what's everyone think about....
- Vote Margin: Should removal require the same +2 margin in favor of removing (like inclusion requires +2 in favor of including), or is simply more for removal than keeping sufficient?
- Timing: Should removals get to the vote/action stage immediately after their discussion, or should they be staged alongside additions for the next update cycle?
- Minimum to Proceed: Should removals not be considered with less than one-third support in the discussion as additions are, or should a removal require at least one-half support to proceed?
- Vote Necessity: Should removals have the same vote bypassing with two-thirds support in discussion that additions do, or should a vote be mandatory?
Alternatives at any point are certainly welcome, as well as general discussion and pointing out anything I've failed to consider; but that should be enough to tie down procedural questions I recall coming up before, at least.
And for something totally unrelated, I notice the title of the official PDF thread for Uncivil Servant and Don't Split the Party gets truncated on replies just like this thread did originally. At least we're in good company with thread title lengthFeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-03, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
+2 margin to remove, done in update cycle, nix with less than one-third support, bypass vote with two-thirds support. Bring it in line with the additions, basically.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-03, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2016-07-03, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
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2016-07-03, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Another quote.
Elaborates on why bluescale was rejected for the O-Chul story, tells us that the O-Chul story will be done in the current art-style, and also that the bonus materials from BRitF (done in the old style) were made after the new art style had been introduced and were done in the old style for consistency with the surrounding material.
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2016-07-03, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I think that votes to remove should be done pretty much the same as votes to include, so they should have the majorities to overrule, need +2 to remove, and should be done during the bimonthly cycle. The only thing I'm iffy about is that this quote had a few people saying to remove it with no dissenting voices but the actual vote was much closer, and wouldn't even have been removed under the new proposed rules.
I think that the new quote about the O-Chul PDF is worth including.
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2016-07-04, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
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