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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post

    The topic is bout how Rich's interpretation of the SRD interacts with the rules he establishes for his setting. Without the quote, we can assume. With the quote, we can know.
    There is no interaction though. We know vampire durkon can cast spells immediately because we see him casting spells immediately. By RAW, vampires become non-theist clerics who don't have any down time between when they turn and when they can cast spells. But Rich isn't following RAW, and Durkon did not become a non-theist cleric. We can make an assumption at this point that the lack of down time is still part of Rich's vampirism, but the quote in question does not deal with how his vampirism is different from RAW, by design. Remember that at that point Rich was still hiding the reveal of Durkon's possession.

    Also, I want to apologize to the banana for making you keep posting a summary of what were voting over. Frankly, this debate should have happened when people were proposing the thing for removal.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2016-06-29 at 02:23 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    By RAW, vampires become non-theist clerics who don't have any down time between when they turn and when they can cast spells.
    Where does it say that? RAW addresses what spells remain prepared when Raised or Resurrected. The Vampire entry does not say anything one way or the other.

    Frankly, this debate should have happened when people were proposing the thing for removal.
    But it didn't, and I don't want to see a post removed by default.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    I think this is worth having, at the very least until the O-Chul story is released.
    Probably worth keeping after, for the bit about it not being distributed through Gumroad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Well I guess my surprise at the lack of discussion was warranted, it just hadn't happened yet Here's a reminder for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    CALLING FOR CONFIRMATION VOTE ON A QUOTE

    The inclusion of the entry Vampire Durkon can Cast Spells has been challenged; on the basis that the implied explanation of "Vampire Durkon" being a deity-less cleric does not in fact apply, and the general existence of deity-less clerics has since been confirmed in the comic. This vote will determine whether it remains in the Index or not.

    Since we've had confusion on this before, the vote will be for keep or remove, rather than yes or no.

    • Please bold your vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
    • The usual suggestion to avoid discussing quotes during the vote does not apply in this case.
    • Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes to keep than votes to remove.


    Voting will be open until July 1st, 9PM EDT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    The topic is bout how Rich's interpretation of the SRD interacts with the rules he establishes for his setting. Without the quote, we can assume. With the quote, we can know.
    I realized a particular complicating factor here is what the Giant said about the post later:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komatik View Post
    Well, there was no proof of that until this point. Giant said Durkon was a nontheistic Cleric,
    No, I didn't. This is what I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.
    All of that is 100% true in a game of Dungeons & Dragons.

    Which this comic is not.
    I can certainly see the possibility for walking away from that quote with the impression that the key paragraph in the earlier quote shouldn't actually apply to the comic...just as I can see the possibility that the "not 100% true" part might just be the integral role of deities of undeath in the process, especially since deity conversion might not be guaranteed.


    But ultimately, the vote comes down to whether the community as a whole finds the entry worth keeping or not...and we have no strict guidelines for what makes an entry worth having in the Index, hence the vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Also, I want to apologize to the banana for making you keep posting a summary of what were voting over. Frankly, this debate should have happened when people were proposing the thing for removal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    But it didn't, and I don't want to see a post removed by default.
    I've specifically exempted the "avoid discussing the quotes during the vote" on removals for precisely that reason; without any established timing procedure (or procedure in general) there's no advance notice on when these removal discussions could happen, and cutting off discussion because of mind reading failure on the part of our contributors (one of the Plant traits is immunity to mind-affecting effects after all, which many mind reading effects are) rather than because people didn't know there was a discussion going on...isn't a risk I find comfortable.

    Requoting myself for the summary doesn't really rise to the point of inconvenience for me; and it certainly pales in comparison of the possibility of undercutting everyone who wanted an entry included in the first place on the basis of my timing.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2016-06-29 at 02:47 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I just couldn't help thinking of this scene.

    Credit to you if you were deliberately invoking it.
    Sadly, no. I was referencing this. I have always maintained that the show transcended the strip.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    I vote remove.


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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    What do the exit polls show so far?
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    What do the exit polls show so far?
    Well, it looks like the Palpatine/Vader ticket is going to stay in office. Also, my quick and dirty count shows leave is up by 1, which doesn't meet the +2 threshold.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2016-06-30 at 01:53 PM.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, my quick and dirty count shows leave is up by 1, which doesn't meet the +2 threshold.
    Not sure about the count, it looked even just now...the votes for "remain" instead of "keep" are easy to confuse with votes for "remove", though.

    But regardless, as a reminder....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes to keep than votes to remove.
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  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Remove. And include the new quote about the O-Chul story.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    I vote to keep the quote in question.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    And for our thrilling(?) conclusion....



    The entry has been removed from the Index.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I'll get to updating the Durkon's Mass Death Ward entry to include the part about only SRD spells being common knowledge....
    ...OK, I actually ended up adding a second entry in the D&D Rules section for it, rather than modify the prior entry:

    Accuracy
    Only SRD (Core) Spells are Common Knowledge
    "...and everything else is 'obscure/non-existent' unless someone has researched it."
    #806 09/19/2011


    Also, we had a new quote come across while the vote was happening; did everyone see this?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    O-Chul will definitely NOT be released this way. It's almost as long as On the Origins of PCs and will probably get a full book release of some sort (i.e. print and PDF).


    And finally....Removal procedures, do we need to formalize them? It seems someone's confused by them in some way or another every time a removal vote happens, but if I recall correctly only once was there any momentum on attempting to arrive at general rules governing them (that ultimately didn't arrive anywhere concrete). If there's no actual concern, that's fine; but it looks more and more like an unlikely assumption each time.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    New quote seems fine, and I'm uncertain about formalizing rules on removals. It does cause confusion, but is also fairly uncommon and there's also the failure to succesfully formalize already. On principle, I'm against enforcing extra work on others when i don't think it will come to fruition.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Sure, add the quote. On a related note:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
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    For Those Who Missed Out on Kickstarter
    The swag, sans patches, will be very likely available again at some point.
    #870 02/24/2012

    This is way out of date, since the swag has been available for ages. Probably add a note about the Belkar PDF being available and the possibility of others.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    We don't need to formalize removal procedures beyond stopping the senseless weighted majority requirement for keeping a vote that was already added. We just changed the index based on an event vote. Action should require at least a majority.

    ETA: Also, I don't think the current rules support the interpretation of requiring a supermajority to keep an existing quote in the index. That rule is for adding quotes, not removing them. The rules were voted on, and until a removal rule is voted on, this ill-supported interpretation should not be used to favor the faction that has a narrow view of what should be in the index.
    Last edited by Kalmegil; 2016-07-01 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Agreed that a tie should not remove a quote.

    Registering again my personal view that removal should be formalized as not a thing that happens in any event unless directly requested by Rich, though I am aware that this will not at any point be a popular view on removal.
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

  17. - Top - End - #437
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    If number of votes matter here, let it be known that I agree with everything Kalmegil and SaintRidley just said. The vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "don't change" makes sense to me, the vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "non-inclusion, whether it's already been included or not" does not at all, except as a result of some people's misreading Rich's earlier posts to indicate a desire for as little as possible to be indexed.
    Last edited by Kish; 2016-07-02 at 12:50 AM.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    I also agree with 'maintaining the status quo' as a better way to lean for votes than 'non-inclusion'.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    We don't need to formalize removal procedures beyond stopping the senseless weighted majority requirement for keeping a vote that was already added. We just changed the index based on an event vote. Action should require at least a majority.

    ETA: Also, I don't think the current rules support the interpretation of requiring a supermajority to keep an existing quote in the index. That rule is for adding quotes, not removing them. The rules were voted on, and until a removal rule is voted on, this ill-supported interpretation should not be used to favor the faction that has a narrow view of what should be in the index.
    While I think the antagonistic tone here was rather unnecessary, I agree that removing with less than a majority doesn't feel right. I also believe we do need to formalize a removal procedure, since if we don't, this contentious debate will show up again. I'd rather have a tedious debate over rules now, once and for all, as opposed to every time somebody suggests a removal.

    ... And I agree about removing the Kickstarter swag quote.

    EDIT - Also, I think the quote about the O'chul story should be included.
    Last edited by Gwynfrid; 2016-07-02 at 06:40 AM.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Personally, I also thought going into this that the removers would need a majority in order to remove the quote, not the people who wanted the quote to stay. In my opinion, I feel that especially in the case of a tie things should stay as they are, not change.


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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmegil View Post
    We don't need to formalize removal procedures beyond stopping the senseless weighted majority requirement for keeping a vote that was already added. We just changed the index based on an event vote. Action should require at least a majority.

    ETA: Also, I don't think the current rules support the interpretation of requiring a supermajority to keep an existing quote in the index. That rule is for adding quotes, not removing them. The rules were voted on, and until a removal rule is voted on, this ill-supported interpretation should not be used to favor the faction that has a narrow view of what should be in the index.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If number of votes matter here, let it be known that I agree with everything Kalmegil and SaintRidley just said. The vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "don't change" makes sense to me, the vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "non-inclusion, whether it's already been included or not" does not at all, except as a result of some people's misreading Rich's earlier posts to indicate a desire for as little as possible to be indexed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Personally, I also thought going into this that the removers would need a majority in order to remove the quote, not the people who wanted the quote to stay. In my opinion, I feel that especially in the case of a tie things should stay as they are, not change.
    All of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The usability of the index to find any specific quote goes down the more we have
    I reject this premise.



    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post

    Registering again my personal view that removal should be formalized as not a thing that happens in any event unless directly requested by Rich, though I am aware that this will not at any point be a popular view on removal.
    I disagree, I believe that if a sufficient supermajority wants to remove a quote, it should be removed.

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    If number of votes matter here, let it be known that I agree with everything Kalmegil and SaintRidley just said. The vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "don't change" makes sense to me, the vote requirements being deliberately tilted toward "non-inclusion, whether it's already been included or not" does not at all, except as a result of some people's misreading Rich's earlier posts to indicate a desire for as little as possible to be indexed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    I also agree with 'maintaining the status quo' as a better way to lean for votes than 'non-inclusion'.
    Thirded. (Or fifthed or sixthed or however many people have expressed a similar opinion by now.)

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwynfrid View Post
    While I think the antagonistic tone here was rather unnecessary, I agree that removing with less than a majority doesn't feel right. I also believe we do need to formalize a removal procedure, since if we don't, this contentious debate will show up again. I'd rather have a tedious debate over rules now, once and for all, as opposed to every time somebody suggests a removal.

    ... And I agree about removing the Kickstarter swag quote.

    EDIT - Also, I think the quote about the O'chul story should be included.
    Rather than repeat what others have already said, I'm just gonna say that I agree with all of this.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2016-07-03 at 03:26 AM.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Well, looks like we've a quote for the next update cycle!...which is highly convenient since the two-month deadline for the update cycle will be only ten days from now.

    "How the Paladin Got His Scar" is Almost as Long as "On the Origins of PCs"
    "...and will probably get a full book release of some sort (i.e. print and PDF)."
    #1041 06/29/2016 Tentative, appears will be included without vote.


    As for removal procedures...Seems there's widespread agreement that it should take more than an even vote to remove an entry. I see a lot of what looks like implication that a removal should require the same +2 margin an addition requires, too...But there's a bit more to it then that. So, for clarity in vision, what's everyone think about....

    • Vote Margin: Should removal require the same +2 margin in favor of removing (like inclusion requires +2 in favor of including), or is simply more for removal than keeping sufficient?
    • Timing: Should removals get to the vote/action stage immediately after their discussion, or should they be staged alongside additions for the next update cycle?
    • Minimum to Proceed: Should removals not be considered with less than one-third support in the discussion as additions are, or should a removal require at least one-half support to proceed?
    • Vote Necessity: Should removals have the same vote bypassing with two-thirds support in discussion that additions do, or should a vote be mandatory?


    Alternatives at any point are certainly welcome, as well as general discussion and pointing out anything I've failed to consider; but that should be enough to tie down procedural questions I recall coming up before, at least.


    And for something totally unrelated, I notice the title of the official PDF thread for Uncivil Servant and Don't Split the Party gets truncated on replies just like this thread did originally. At least we're in good company with thread title length
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    +2 margin to remove, done in update cycle, nix with less than one-third support, bypass vote with two-thirds support. Bring it in line with the additions, basically.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    +2 margin to remove, done in update cycle, nix with less than one-third support, bypass vote with two-thirds support. Bring it in line with the additions, basically.
    I'm aligned with this.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    +2 margin to remove, done in update cycle, nix with less than one-third support, bypass vote with two-thirds support. Bring it in line with the additions, basically.
    This sounds reasonable to myself, as well.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Another quote.

    Elaborates on why bluescale was rejected for the O-Chul story, tells us that the O-Chul story will be done in the current art-style, and also that the bonus materials from BRitF (done in the old style) were made after the new art style had been introduced and were done in the old style for consistency with the surrounding material.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    O-Chul's story will be done in the current art style, as will everything from now on unless I'm trying to specifically insert material into the middle of an older story for some reason, such as when I drew the bonus materials for Blood Runs in the Family. There wasn't any art completed on the O-Chul prequel beyond that cover image until recently, only outlines and scripts, so there's no need to match the older style if I don't want to (and I don't want to).

    O-Chul's story will also be greyscale. The bluescale is nice in theory but the big problem with it is that without color, my art relies heavily on that black line to differentiate between blocks of grey that are sometimes only a little bit apart. Every blue I tried failed to do as good a job at separating darker tints (60-80%) as black does when separating equivalent greys. And any blue that even came close looked more like grey or purple when scaled back to 10-20%. The only way to make it work would have been to use different blues for different parts, at which point you're using multiple inks when printing and you might as well work in full color. The main reason I started using greyscale in the first place was due to the massive cost savings of 1-color printing anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

  29. - Top - End - #449
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    I think that votes to remove should be done pretty much the same as votes to include, so they should have the majorities to overrule, need +2 to remove, and should be done during the bimonthly cycle. The only thing I'm iffy about is that this quote had a few people saying to remove it with no dissenting voices but the actual vote was much closer, and wouldn't even have been removed under the new proposed rules.

    I think that the new quote about the O-Chul PDF is worth including.


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  30. - Top - End - #450
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    DataNinja's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    The only thing I'm iffy about is that this quote had a few people saying to remove it with no dissenting voices but the actual vote was much closer, and wouldn't even have been removed under the new proposed rules.
    I think part of that is that there has been no codified procedure. I know that I tend not to speak in this thread except during the actual voting times, and others may feel the same way. Just my 2 cents. (Or 1.5 American cents. )
    The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.

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