Dreamscarred Press Introduces Lords of the Wild- The Playtest!

[SwordChucks]

I'll be running an encounter soon involving a werewolf. I had already statted it up, but I'll be remaking it with these rules to test them out.

[digiman619]

I would love to see a Magical Girl class for Pathfinder... but then again, I'm weird.

That's one of the vigilante archetypes of ultimate intrigue weirdly enough.

Well now I have to buy that one...

[Elricaltovilla]

Well now I have to buy that one...

If I could make a recommendation, the aegis by Dreamscarred Press makes a pretty fantastic magical girl and is arguably the most flexible class build-wise that we've published.

[Prime32]

It would be cool to see some anti-werewolf weapons in here. I have an image of a weapon designed for high-level Silverblade Hunters...

Spoiler

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A blob of quicksilver which can reshape itself into any weapon with which you're proficient (excepting complex weapons like crossbows, firearms and technological items). It counts as mithral, has the agile, dueling and psychokinetic burst properties, is immune to the broken condition, and possibly is faster to draw or sheathe. It's mildly poisonous, dealing 1 point of Str and Dex damage per hit... but it's a contact poison, so it also affects the wielder unless they have a good Fort save or are a Silverblade Hunter (who are immune).

Maybe alternate uses for silversheen, like mixing it into bombs, or force-feeding it to a werewolf to weaken them?

If I could make a recommendation, the aegis by Dreamscarred Press makes a pretty fantastic magical girl and is arguably the most flexible class build-wise that we've published.

There's also the Chosen One paladin archetype.

Some tropes really need a campaign structured around them to pull off, though, like "your powers destroy the evil in people without harming them".

[digiman619]

If I could make a recommendation, the aegis by Dreamscarred Press makes a pretty fantastic magical girl and is arguably the most flexible class build-wise that we've published.

Well, a) I already own a copy of Ultimate Psionics, and b) I always got an Iron Man vibe from the class rather than Magical Girl. I suppose if there was an archetype that traded away Astral Juggernaut for something interesting, then I'd see it, but as is, not so much.

[Anlashok]

Why does Astral Juggernaut prevent you from being a magical girl?

[digiman619]

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

[upho]

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

Well, this one's at least pretty magically badass IMO:

Spoiler: Magical Girl Tank

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And btw, the latest posts in this thread are just hilariously weird and fun. You guys rock!

[digiman619]

Well, this one's at least pretty magically badass IMO:

Spoiler: Magical Girl Tank

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That doesn't count and you know it!

[Prime32]

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

If you mean as in the party role, probably this? If you mean as in "can take a lot of punishment" then all the time.

If you don't like the heavily-armored image, just say it's harder to move in because it's a long dress or something.

[digiman619]

If you don't like the heavily-armored image, just say it's harder to move in because it's a long dress or something.

Fair enough. I'll keep that one in mind next time I run an Aegis...

[upho]

That doesn't count and you know it!

Yeah, I did... But hey, can't blame a guy for trying?

On the topic of the new stuff for howlin' furries packing a bite: Isn't the template a bit weak for the CR +1? I mean, even when considering the additional options, I think for example both the Giant and especially the Advanced simple templates gives a natural attack focused build quite a bit more in return for the delayed level progression. But maybe this will prove wrong once more options are in place.

Speaking of options, I made the following two feats, originally for an intelligent large wolf (magical beast) "Sacred Fang" (ie Sacred Fist warpriest) NPC, and I think they might fit with the whole pimped-out bite attack thing this seems to be aiming for:

Ironjaw Watch (Combat)
You focus your attention on keeping an enemy in place and pacified.
Prerequisite: bite attack with the grab and/or trip special attack
Benefit: Whenever you can make your grab or trip special attack with your bite against an adjacent creature, you may choose to take a -4 penalty to the CMB check. If you do, and your Combat Maneuver check succeeds, neither you or the creature you target is grappled or knocked prone, but the target takes a -2 circumstance penalty on all d20 rolls, and you can make your grab or trip special attack as an attack of opportunity whenever the enemy targets a creature other than you with an attack, or attempts to take a 5-foot step, take the Withdrawal action or cast a spell defensively. These effects remain for as long as you remain adjacent to the creature.

Predatorial Advance (Combat)
Like your animal cousins, you are incredibly adept at avoiding the defenses of the large prey you hunt.
Prerequisite: shapechange ability which may turn you into a wolf or other predator?
Benefit: Whenever you charge, your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from creatures of your size or larger.

I guess these could just as well be maneuvers or stances if that's your preference.

[CGNefarious]

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

Sayaka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica makes for a pretty good tank in the sense that she can take a lot of hits and keep on going.

[ghanjrho]

Sayaka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica makes for a pretty good tank in the sense that she can take a lot of hits and keep on going.

Yes, and that ended so well for her.

[Shackel]

This sounds pretty cool, actually, I'm pretty excited for those Werewolf tribes(they can even be used to represent 'special' packs of wolves with those feats, which is pretty neat).

My main issue so far is that I'd gotten pretty hyped up about Chimera Soul when I first saw it: a shapeshifting discipline all about natural attacks? Amazing concept, especially if you're, say, a Pathwalker Psychic Warrior or an Egoist who is dipping into Zealot for a little more offensive power.

... However, I feel like if you can already gain some of these natural attacks, a good chunk of the strikes feel very wanting until about 4-6th level compared to other disciplines they might use. If you aren't a natural attack fighter, you just gain new problems: you might be gaining a few d6 worth of damage, but the first one's just making up for the damage you lose by using a natural attack in the first place, especially if you aren't wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists to make them magic, a common heavy DR type lategame. Not to mention not having your enchantments.

Maybe something akin to the Undead discipline which buffed the maneuver if you're already dead from Lords of the Night might help? Even something as simple as "if you already have a natural attack given to you by a strike, increase it's damage die by one" or increasing an enhancement bonus could make Chimera Soul more useful for initiators who had some way to shapeshift or use natural weapons before.

[Anlashok]

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

I'd say the vast majority of magical girls I've seen can take quite a bit of punishment. Defensive barriers are really, really common.

[digiman619]

If you mean as in the party role, probably this? If you mean as in "can take a lot of punishment" then all the time.

If you don't like the heavily-armored image, just say it's harder to move in because it's a long dress or something.

Sayaka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica makes for a pretty good tank in the sense that she can take a lot of hits and keep on going.

I'd say the vast majority of magical girls I've seen can take quite a bit of punishment. Defensive barriers are really, really common.

Okay, Okay! I get it! Point retracted!

[Elricaltovilla]

This sounds pretty cool, actually, I'm pretty excited for those Werewolf tribes(they can even be used to represent 'special' packs of wolves with those feats, which is pretty neat).

My main issue so far is that I'd gotten pretty hyped up about Chimera Soul when I first saw it: a shapeshifting discipline all about natural attacks? Amazing concept, especially if you're, say, a Pathwalker Psychic Warrior or an Egoist who is dipping into Zealot for a little more offensive power.

... However, I feel like if you can already gain some of these natural attacks, a good chunk of the strikes feel very wanting until about 4-6th level compared to other disciplines they might use. If you aren't a natural attack fighter, you just gain new problems: you might be gaining a few d6 worth of damage, but the first one's just making up for the damage you lose by using a natural attack in the first place, especially if you aren't wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists to make them magic, a common heavy DR type lategame. Not to mention not having your enchantments.

Maybe something akin to the Undead discipline which buffed the maneuver if you're already dead from Lords of the Night might help? Even something as simple as "if you already have a natural attack given to you by a strike, increase it's damage die by one" or increasing an enhancement bonus could make Chimera Soul more useful for initiators who had some way to shapeshift or use natural weapons before.

So, you touched on something that I think needs addressing. Chimera Soul's interaction with natural attacks is as follows: If you do not have the appropriate natural attack to initiate the maneuver, you temporarily gain it for purposes of initiating the maneuver, though it effectively becomes a 0d6 weapon. If you have the appropriate natural attack for the maneuver, you initiate it normally using the damage dice from your natural attack just like you would for any other type of attack.

So why did I do things this way? Because the options need to be relatively balanced between those with native natural attacks and those that don't have natural attacks natively. Possessing claw attacks is going to make you better at using Chimera Soul than someone who doesn't have claw attacks because you aren't forced to choose between taking a reduction in damage or entering an appropriate stance. The buff for already having natural attacks isn't, and shouldn't be, more powerful maneuvers but instead is freedom and flexibility that isn't granted to initiators without those natural attacks.

Chimera Soul as a discipline is more centralizing than others, it's not a discipline you ought to just splash into without at least some basic support from your natural abilities or other class features. That doesn't mean it can only be used by natural attackers, just that it requires more investment and synergy. The stances provide the natural attacks that fuel the strikes which are enhanced by the boosts. Chimera Soul wants you to pick up natural attacks and abilities or items to support them. But that's no different than Solar Wind expecting you to carry around an enchanted bow (or ranged weapon of your choice) or essentially the entire game expecting you to have the appropriate magical items for your level ready and available.

[Shackel]

So, you touched on something that I think needs addressing. Chimera Soul's interaction with natural attacks is as follows: If you do not have the appropriate natural attack to initiate the maneuver, you temporarily gain it for purposes of initiating the maneuver, though it effectively becomes a 0d6 weapon. If you have the appropriate natural attack for the maneuver, you initiate it normally using the damage dice from your natural attack just like you would for any other type of attack.

So why did I do things this way? Because the options need to be relatively balanced between those with native natural attacks and those that don't have natural attacks natively. Possessing claw attacks is going to make you better at using Chimera Soul than someone who doesn't have claw attacks because you aren't forced to choose between taking a reduction in damage or entering an appropriate stance. The buff for already having natural attacks isn't, and shouldn't be, more powerful maneuvers but instead is freedom and flexibility that isn't granted to initiators without those natural attacks.

Chimera Soul as a discipline is more centralizing than others, it's not a discipline you ought to just splash into without at least some basic support from your natural abilities or other class features. That doesn't mean it can only be used by natural attackers, just that it requires more investment and synergy. The stances provide the natural attacks that fuel the strikes which are enhanced by the boosts. Chimera Soul wants you to pick up natural attacks and abilities or items to support them. But that's no different than Solar Wind expecting you to carry around an enchanted bow (or ranged weapon of your choice) or essentially the entire game expecting you to have the appropriate magical items for your level ready and available.

I think I understand what the team was planning in terms of specialization, I just don't think the benefit for specializing in non-Wilds shapeshifting is good enough: excluding your magical items, what does using your own damage dice usually add to one of the maneuver other than... perhaps 2-3 average damage max? Maybe if you're using pre-nerf Feral Combat Training on a high-level Monk-type on top of size increases, but that's still only maybe 10 damage at the most.

While it answers non-natural attack fighters being harmed severely(since it is, as you said, a specialized discipline ala Solar Wind or Broken Blade), it still leaves the problem of even natural attack fighters just not getting that much out of specializing in Chimera Soul--a discipline flavor-wise made for them--in terms of strikes.

Now, in terms of stances, Chimera Soul borders on ridiculous and the boosts are nice(though the 1st and 2nd level boosts look like they should be switched), it's just the strikes I worry about.

[Halae]

Now, in terms of stances, Chimera Soul borders on ridiculous and the boosts are nice(though the 1st and 2nd level boosts look like they should be switched), it's just the strikes I worry about.

Honestly? I'm totally fine with that. I like the idea of Chimera Soul being a stance discipline. I may be a bit biased in this due to the fact that I dislike rapid transformations, but at the same time it's pretty much the only discipline built around its stances. All the others have 6 disciplines, usually only one or two really good ones - Chimera Soul has five stances that are excellent for their given level. sacrificing the power of strikes to make it a more specialized discipline feels like a good choice to me.

[upho]

Deathsting Shift has some confusing wording:

Special: At 3 Shifting feats, you may use your sting attack against enemies 5 feet further away, as if your sting were a reach weapon.

Gaining +5 ft. additional reach and gaining additional reach "as if a reach weapon" are two different things. They only happen to have the same mechanical result for a medium or small sized creature with a "tall" body shape. So which effect was intended here - "+5 ft." or "as reach weapon" (which scales with size and is dependent on body shape)?

I think the more potent "as reach weapon" option would be powerful but not OP, considering the cost.

[Shackel]

Honestly? I'm totally fine with that. I like the idea of Chimera Soul being a stance discipline. I may be a bit biased in this due to the fact that I dislike rapid transformations, but at the same time it's pretty much the only discipline built around its stances. All the others have 6 disciplines, usually only one or two really good ones - Chimera Soul has five stances that are excellent for their given level. sacrificing the power of strikes to make it a more specialized discipline feels like a good choice to me.

A good point, I just find it strange for a discipline to specifically have really strong stances, but then everything else being designed to be weak. It feels strangely... meta, I guess? Implicit suggestion that one whole class of maneuvers is just there as filler and you're really just there for another one(rather than there just being fewer of that type to begin with). That might just be me disliking change, then.

At the same time, I did notice that this discipline is structurally different from the others, so far. I feel like levels 1-3 of a good chunk of disciplines are just plain gamechanging compared to their previous ones(or not having maneuvers at all), but levels 4-6 kind of flatten out before the final third. Chimera Soul, on the other hand, seems to have a more consistent progression. That could be it, too.

[SwordChucks]

Is Longstride Shift meant to stack with enhancement bonuses to speed? It makes a barbarian with the Swiftfoot rage power pretty fast pretty quickly.

[Troacctid]

For the werewolf template, it's unclear whether the wild empathy bonus from Lycanthropic Empathy applies to all wild empathy checks or only those made to influence canines. Also, there are some typos in some of the Weapons of the Beast sections. ("This is a primary natural attack that deal [sic] 1d6 points of damage... ")

[stack]

Balancing a discipline around strong stances and weak strikes doesn't really work though. You can just grab the strong stances and boosts/counters then grab more powerful strikes from another discipline. Seems like a poor concept for balance, though I assume the designers are not trying to do this unless explicitly stated otherwise.

[Elricaltovilla]

Balancing a discipline around strong stances and weak strikes doesn't really work though. You can just grab the strong stances and boosts/counters then grab more powerful strikes from another discipline. Seems like a poor concept for balance, though I assume the designers are not trying to do this unless explicitly stated otherwise.

That's called building an initiator, stack.

You take the strong counters from one discipline (say Mithral Current), the strong strikes from another (say Primal Fury or Scarlet Throne), the strong stances from a 3rd (Elemental Flux) and the strong boosts from a 4th (Riven Hourglass) and you end up with a monstrously effective character. Different disciplines all emphasize different maneuver types to different degrees, which is why lots of people complain about [discipline] doing [thing] better than [other discipline], despite them having similar maneuvers.

It's not the goal of Chimera Soul (or any other discipline) to provide exceptionally strong maneuvers of one type at the expense of maneuvers of other types. There is a little bit of experimentation with Chimera Soul (as there is with every other discipline), with the goal being to provide a discipline with strong intra-discipline synergy. It expects you to invest more heavily in Chimera Soul than probably other disciplines do. Strikes, boosts and stances are all meant to combine together to form a stronger whole within the discipline than without.

But that has to be balanced against the goal of inter-discipline synergy. The whole reason that initiators get access to multiple disciplines is because they're meant to combine maneuvers from multiple disciplines to form a stronger whole (incidentally this is why I get irked by complaints about not liking that different disciplines have stronger or weaker maneuvers of different types at different levels, that's the whole point), and I don't want Chimera Soul to go against that design goal. It very much should not, and will not, be a discipline that punishes you for moving outside of its strictures, instead I want it to provide some (minor, but notable) incentive to emphasize Chimera Soul in builds that wish to use it more than other disciplines. It makes the ratio a little uneven one way or the other, but it won't make it so that you can't or won't look at other disciplines for extra options.

[upho]

Since I had a couple of hours to spare before going out on my usual nightly howling and snarling rampage around the neighborhood, I decided to try and break the new toys you've brought to the Playground and put together a relatively simple werewolf Unshackled Rager "shifting food processor charger" test build. So here she is, my somewhat cheesy goody-two-shoes multi-armed meat grinder of a pack sister, howling with hunger and soon ready to warm up her monstrous jaws with some balor starters before moving on to the tarrasque:

Ylva Forada Ulfhedinn
- Fyrst ór Grimma Veidarnir -

Unshackled Werewolf Test Build

Spoiler: Translations from Old Norse and Related Curiosities

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Ylva means "female wolf" and quite a few people go by that name in Scandinavia even today. (I think I might be her chaotic evil twin; my RL name happens to be the Old Norse word for a (male) wolf .) Forada Ulfhedinn means, in direct translation, "monster" (forad) "wolf" (ulf) "fur" (hedinn), but ulfhedinn (plur. ulfhednar) was presumably also a term for/title held by the most formidable and ferocious of the viking berserker warriors. An ulfhedinn was regarded as the most elite of warriors and was sworn to Odin (whose name is btw related to the word ódr which means "raging" or "frenzied"), and is described as wearing the pelt of a wolf rather than that of a bear to distinguish himself from lesser "typical" beserkers. And Ylva seemed to fit that description in more ways than one. The "monster" addition just seemed appropriate for a werewolf tiefling with alqarn heritage, tons of weird shifting abilities and about as many deadly and horrifying natural weapons as that of every Australian animal combined. Fyrst ór Grimma Veidarnir, meaning "First of the Fierce Hunters", is just me inventing an Old Norse name/title for "pack alpha" (Fyrst) and the name of Ylva's pack (the Fierce Hunters).

I tried to get it at least somewhat grammatically correct, but despite being a native speaker of one of the languages evolved from Old Scandinavian, I'm far from certain a 10th century viking would've approved... (Vikings obviously had some weird fetish for needlessly complex crap which later generations have since tried to remove from their language, such as enough declensions and grammatical irregularities to cause anyone who's not a linguistics professor a serious headache.)

Spoiler: Ylva, 20th Level Summary

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Werewolf Demon-Spawn Tiefling (alqarn heritage) Unshackled Rager Bloodrager 12, Warlord 3, Lorewarden Fighter 2, Ragechemist Vivisectionist Alchemist 2, Master of Many Styles Monk 1
LG Gargantuan outsider (native, shapechanger)

All values while in bloodrage, Primal Fury Style and Chimeric Body stance, using all shifting abilities (short duration versions), boots of speed, war paint and wands of shield and strong jaw.

Initiative +6 (+4 in Size Shift); Senses blindsight 30 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +36
Indomitable Presence allies within 30 ft. gain the benefits of Diehard and gains +5 morale to Fortitude saves vs. death, fatigue, exhaustion, and poison effects

DEFENSE
AC 46, touch 30, flat-footed 42; +2 vs. AoOs +12 armor, +14 natural armor, +4 shield, +3 dex, +5 deflection, +2 luck, +1 defending, +1 dodge, -2 lupine frenzy, -4 size; +2 dodge
HP 264, 60 temporary, delayed damage pool max 66 112 (10+16d10+3d8) hit die, +140 con, +12 favored class
Fort +34, Ref +21, Will +28; +7 vs. mind-affecting; +7 vs. disease, poison, exhaustion and fatigue; +5 morale to Fortitude saves vs. death, fatigue, exhaustion, and poison effects
DR 3/-, 3/silver; Resist electricity 5, cold 5, fire 5
Defensive Abilities constant freedom of movement, Diehard (stabilize and staggered if between -1 and -24 HP), pale green prism (remove fatigue 2/day if switching ioun stones in wayfinder), Improved Uncanny Dodge

OFFENSE
Speed 115 ft. (255 ft. charging), Fly 100 ft. (225 ft. charging); ignores difficult terrain 30 base, 10 fast movement, 10 skin of proteus, 35 Longstride Shifting, 30 haste (25 Primal Fury Style)
Melee Power Attack, charge: 2 bites +42/+42 (16d6+50 plus trip), deathsting +42 (6d6+50 plus deathsting poison and reposition), gore +42 (8d6+50), 2 proteus claws +42/+42 (8d8+52), 2 savage claws and rake +42/+42/+42 (6d6+52), 2 strongclaws +42/+42 (6d6+55), 2 slams +42/+42 (6d6+50), scorpionsting +42 (6d6+50 plus scorpion poison), 2 hooves +37/+37 (6d6+50) and 2 tentacles +37/+37 (6d6+50); all attacks bypass DR as if adamantine, cold iron, good, magic, lawful and silver.
Space 20 ft., Reach 20 ft., 60 ft. with deathsting (+5 ft. 3 rounds/day)
Attack Abilities and Special Attacks (values incl. Power Attack and charge) Blind Fight, Charge Through (free overrun during charge move, CMB +66), Combat Reflexes (4 AoOs/round), deathsting poison (Fort DC 34, 3d2 Strength damage, 6 rounds), Greater Overrun (AoO if overrun check succeeds by 5+), pounce, Primal Fury Slash (free attack vs. adjacent creature at any point during charge movement), rend (6d6+52), reposition (CMB +72, free on deathsting hit, target must be moved closer), scorpion poison 3/day (Fort DC 27, 1d3 Constitution damage, 6 rounds), trip (CMB +73, free on bite hit)

Greater Lupine Frenzy 33 rounds/day; Shifting free action at any time, 17 uses/day, 2 rounds duration/use in combat

Gambits +6 luck to related d20 rolls; swift to initiate, success = regain 5 maneuvers, failure = -2 on d20 roll for 1 round and regain 1 maneuver
Brave Gambit (1st attack on charge hit = allies gain +5 morale bonus to damage on next attack until next turn)
Sweeping Gambit (trip = AoO vs. tripped with +5 morale bonus to damage)

Maneuvers Readied ?

Spells ?

STATISTICS
Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 50 16 base, 2 race, 2 werewolf, 5 level, 7 Strongclaw Shift, 6 belt, 6 mutagen, 6 Size Shift
Dex 16 14 base, 6 belt, -4 Size Shift
Con 24 14 base, 4 manual, 6 belt
Int 9/7 7 base, -2 race, 4 headband /-2 mutagen
Wis 20 12 base, 2 werewolf, 6 headband
Cha 20 12 base, 2 race, 6 headband
Bab +19, CMB +61 (dirty trick, disarm and reposition +72; overrun +69; trip +76), CMD 76 (78 vs. bull rush and grapple; 87 vs. dirty trick and disarm; 80 vs. overrun; 89 vs. reposition; 91 vs. trip)
Feats Abomination Shift^B, Beasthide Shift, Blind Fight^B, Charge Through, Combat Expertise^B, Combat Reflexes^B, Deathsting Shift^B, Eschew Materials^B, Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm), Greater Overrun^B, Greater Trip, Improved Overrun, Improved Trip^B, Improved Unarmed Strike^B, Longstride Shifting, Oversized Limbs, Power Attack, Primal Fury Slash^B, Primal Fury Style^B, Rapid Shifting, Size Shift^B, Strongclaw Shift, Stunning Fist^B, Wrath of the Blood Moon^B
Skills Perception +36, ?

Alternate Racial Traits Alqarn racial heritage (Large size), Maw or Claw (bite), Prehensile Tail
Traits Fate's Favored, Practiced Initiator

Gear +3 furious dueling amulet of mighty fists and natural armor +5, +1 defending bodywrap of mighty strikes, +5 mithral breastplate and armor kilt, belt (+6 str, dex, con), headband (+4 int, +6 wis, cha), blood reservoir of physical prowess, boots of speed, cloak and pauldrons of the resisting serpent +5, cracked dusty rose prism and cracked incandescent blue sphere (Sense Motive) in ebon wayfinder, cracked magenta prism x2 (Fly, Survival, Use Magic Device), cracked pale green prism x2, gauntlets of the rending skilled maneuver (overrun), jingasa of the fortunate soldier, lens of detection, longarm bracers, luckstone, mulberry pentacle, orange shoanti war paint x4, ring of protection +5, ring of counterspelling (greater dispel magic, CL 20), silver thorny ioun, skin of proteus (claws, +10 ft. speed, Improved Trip), manual of bodily health +4, wand of shield, wand of strong jaw, lotsa gp

So my main worry after my first read was the abundance of relatively easily accessible and combinable natural attacks - the template, the bloodrage archetype, the Shifting feats, and especially the very easily abused stances which don't even require free limbs (such as Furyhorn and Chimeric Body) - plus the many new ways in which to boost them significantly. But I hadn't really expected it to be quite as nutty as the 14 primary and 4 secondary attacks Ylva can make at the end of a charge, all of them gaining the 1.5 x Str bonus to damage. Especially since that's in addition to her many potential additional attacks per round triggered by her free combat maneuvers and the pretty impressive large area melee control capacity those maneuvers enable.

I haven't done any DPR calcs yet, but I don't think I need to, anyone can see Ylva is pretty much guaranteed to one-shot basically anything within her maximum 320 ft. charge range (unless the target has some very strong defenses in place to keep it out of harm's way, like a prismatic orb). And if say one or two less challenging foes are unlucky enough to be standing in or near her charge lane, she has a decent chance to also give those enough of her natural werewolf love to bring them down to negatives in the same turn.

Still, we've all probably seen plenty of level 20 builds a good deal sillier than Ylva. And I think I would've been pretty OK with her being a badass tactical nuke if it also had forced her to make significant sacrifices in other areas, or if her frankly stupid combat prowess had at least been mostly restricted to the highest levels. Unfortunately, she also has really good overall durability, plenty of combat versatility (especially when adding all the spells and maneuvers not yet included), and most importantly, all of her attacks besides the two slams, "proteus claws" and tentacles are actually accessible before level 6...

TL/DR: I think the natural attack fiesta is out of control, and especially the stances throwing out additional attacks like candy need to have a serious talk with the nerfbat.

On the plus side, I really like a lot of the Shifting feats and the related little sub-system. Flavorful and fun, as is in general this take on the werewolf so far.

[Shackel]

Right. Some disciplines do some things stronger, that is true, but the problem is that the Chimera Soul strikes are weaker. It's not that they're not the Wizards of strikes, it's that they look like the Fighters of strikes. They aren't that good at all until 4th level, and at that point they're... okay.

If you're supposed to invest in it, it doesn't give you that much more than other disciplines to show for it. One might think that for a natural attack-based discipline, it might be full of good full-attack options, strikes and boosts that take advantage of their many weapons(ala Frenzy Strike) or giving a myriad of different things to do with natural weapons. It doesn't, really. Why invest in a single discipline when every other discipline is, for better or worse, front-loaded.

I mean, there's the super stances, but those have already been noted as a bit... much.

And if it's not meant to punish non-natural attack users, it doesn't give any incentive to natural attack users over its competitors. It just makes using it without natural attacks a really, really, really, really bad idea.

[Anlashok]

Forgive me if I misread something simple, but where is Ylva getting all the extra limbs necessary for all those bites and claws?

[upho]

Forgive me if I misread something simple, but where is Ylva getting all the extra limbs necessary for all those bites and claws?

That's a big part of the issue (unless I have misread something) - just like the attacks granted by metamorphosis (Ylva's proteus claws), the Chimera Soul stances don't require any additional limbs for the attacks they grant. Instead, their only restriction is that they cannot grant you an attack type you already have, meaning you can for example deliver 2 claw and 2 slam attacks with one pair of arms.

Ylva's attacks and their sources/limbs delivering them are as follows:

• bite - head, made twice thanks to haste
• savage claws and rake - arms/hands (and one leg/foot?)
• strongclaws - Strongclaw Shift plus vestigial arms from Alchemical Discovery feature and Extra Alchemical Discovery feat
• deathsting - Deathsting Shift (and tiefling prehensile tail?)
• scorpionsting* - Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (attached)
• proteus claws* - Skin of Proteus metamorphosis
• gore* - Chimeric Body stance
• slams* - Chimeric Body stance
• hooves* - Chimeric Body stance
• tentacles* - Chimeric Body stance

*AFAICT, these don't require their own limb or comes with the required limb.