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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    I thought Convention only went through 4 elements. I mean, yes, it's got all six elements, but each class only has 4 different elements it can use, so the ring only cycles for the four elements your class can use. OK, Wizard and Crusader only have four elements each (Arcane, Cold, Fire, Lightning and Physical, Holy, Fire, and Lightning). I think Demon Hunters get Physical, Cold, Fire, and Lightning.
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    It goes through all of the Elements available to the class. Monks having 5 has been one thing discussed on Forums - a perfect (200%) CoE has a 40% Damage increase on a Monk (200%/5), compared to a Stone of Jordan (30%), or a non-Monk CoE (200%/4).

    At the least, Monk Elements are; (there are more skills who benefit I just cba listing more).

    Physical; Fists of Thunder (Quickening)
    Holy; Fists of Thunder (Bounding Light)
    Lightning; Fists of Thunder
    Cold; Fists of Thunder (Wind Blast)
    Fire; Deadly Reach (Searing Grasp)

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neftren View Post
    I can't speak for Monk, but for Demon Hunter, you absolutely want Convention equipped.

    So, on paper it's a 40% damage increase if you straight up divide, but realistically it actually is a 200% damage increase because of the way focus dumps work. For the 5 seconds that Fire is in the rotation, you're spamming Multishot or Grenades, and by the time the 5 seconds is up, your focus pool is empty and you have to use your primary to recover Hatred. I don't think it's fair to use snapshotting as a reason against CoE (if anything, snapshotting is a function of many class mechanics, and you you should factor it in as a reason to use CoE).

    Adding CoE lets my DH push another 5-6 GRift levels compared to cubing say, Elusive Ring or Focus/Restraint and equipping Unity or SoJ.
    Snapshotting is an argument in favor of CoE, not against it. I just don't like it, that's all. Worrying about what color my CoE is on takes my attention away from important things like positioning and stilts the rotation. It's why I'll never play a Tal-Rasha build, it's just too tweaky. If it works for you, I salute you.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    That's right, CoE buffs elements regardless of whether you're using that element. So if you're a single-element build, then CoE is, over time, only giving you a quarter of its potential.
    This is a tad simplified - a lot of builds do their damage in bursty, "unleash" phases followed by lower-dps recovery phases when your big guns are on cooldown and you're running to the next pack. The key to using CoE in these instances is merely to time your cooldowns for the desired element, which gets you much more dps than you think. Using the Thornsader as an example, you want to be firing off your main cooldowns (e.g. Iron Skin, Consecrate, Bombardment) right as your ring's Physical phase is about to start. I wouldn't even call it snapshotting, it's just basic resource management and timing. (Snapshotting refers to keeping a powerful bonus going after it's time was supposed to expire, and I view that as more of an exploit or unintended playstyle.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Stone of Jordan is a type-E bonus. So it only additive with other equipped effects that improve yield versus bosses and elites (and species, if you're wearing Tyrael's Might or something, but that's very corner case). Likewise, the elemental effect on the SoJ is type-D, so if you're wearing other pieces that improve your elemental damage, that's additive as well.
    This info is correct, however anyone following this link should be careful as some of the info is outdated - i.e. some of the additive bonuses it listed back when it was written are multiplicative now, e.g. Taeguk and the Wolf Companion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    If you've got a build with spenders and primaries/generators, Focus and Restraint is probably your best bet. Like CoE, it's a buff that doesn't additively stack with anything else, making it, when used effectively, a double damage buff that's up more or less all the time. Or, if you're a channelling/face-tanking type of build, but I think F/R is probably a bit more flexible.
    It's actually more than double - the separate 50% are multipliers against each other too, making the total increase +125% rather than +100%.

    The problem with F+R is that it requires two rings instead of Endless Walk's one, and that makes fitting in other desirable rings (like CoE, Unity, OROTZ, or one of the special rings for your build like Ring of Emptiness for Jade Harvester, Elusive Ring for Shadow or Manald Heal for Lightning Vyr) more of a pain. As long as your build doesn't require a lot of constant movement, you can generally use EW instead and get comparable dps (greater, if using EW+CoE.) If your build moves between packs but then stands still to burn them down, EW is the way to go, especially if you also get no real benefit from using a generator.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This is a tad simplified - a lot of builds do their damage in bursty, "unleash" phases followed by lower-dps recovery phases when your big guns are on cooldown and you're running to the next pack. The key to using CoE in these instances is merely to time your cooldowns for the desired element, which gets you much more dps than you think. Using the Thornsader as an example, you want to be firing off your main cooldowns (e.g. Iron Skin, Consecrate, Bombardment) right as your ring's Physical phase is about to start. I wouldn't even call it snapshotting, it's just basic resource management and timing. (Snapshotting refers to keeping a powerful bonus going after it's time was supposed to expire, and I view that as more of an exploit or unintended playstyle.)
    So you spend 12 of every 16 seconds faffing about waiting for your buff to come on. I'm aware of the playstyle, It just doesn't appeal to me.

    This info is correct, however anyone following this link should be careful as some of the info is outdated - i.e. some of the additive bonuses it listed back when it was written are multiplicative now, e.g. Taeguk and the Wolf Companion.
    I'd love to get some more up-to-date damage formulae. This was the best I could find in the limited time I was prepared to sink into helping a stranger theorycraft.

    It's actually more than double - the separate 50% are multipliers against each other too, making the total increase +125% rather than +100%.
    I did not know that. Well, just more reason for me to like F&R over CoE. 125% all the time, versus 200% a quarter of the time.

    The problem with F+R is that it requires two rings instead of Endless Walk's one, and that makes fitting in other desirable rings (like CoE, Unity, OROTZ, or one of the special rings for your build like Ring of Emptiness for Jade Harvester, Elusive Ring for Shadow or Manald Heal for Lightning Vyr) more of a pain. As long as your build doesn't require a lot of constant movement, you can generally use EW instead and get comparable dps (greater, if using EW+CoE.) If your build moves between packs but then stands still to burn them down, EW is the way to go, especially if you also get no real benefit from using a generator.
    True, but it's not as if the amulet slot doesn't also have some useful effects. Unity is only relevant in a solo build, and soloing in D3 is a punishment I would not bother to endure. As for the others, yes, it's build-dependent, and there's no reason you can't use both, if that's the kind of build you want.

    So it turned out the first 5 piece set I got together was Helltooth, so now I'm doing a pet-centric Helltooth build with extra dogs, gargantuan, spamable grasp of the dead (I forget the name of the fetish), and spiders (which I love, being able to lob spiders in the general direction of my enemies is great fun. I'm contemplating dropping my Bane of the Powerful to equip Simplicity's Strength (my other two gems would be Efficacious Toxin and Enforcer). Before you get too worried about my AoE damage, my friend is running a Wizard with Firebird/Etched Sigil/Ranslor's Folly, so he's got crowd control completely covered. It's kind of a zDPS build, except that it's got pretty good single target DPS. I have a Ancient Spider Queen's Grasp, of course, in which I dropped a Ramaladni's Gift.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    So you spend 12 of every 16 seconds faffing about waiting for your buff to come on. I'm aware of the playstyle, It just doesn't appeal to me.
    If you want to call it that (however inaccurate) sure. But most of the end-game builds are designed with downtime and cycles in mind even when you're not running to the next pack.

    My larger point is that the 40%-50% increase is really supposed to be the minimum for that ring - if you're using it correctly, it works out being much higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I'd love to get some more up-to-date damage formulae. This was the best I could find in the limited time I was prepared to sink into helping a stranger theorycraft.
    You and me both. Just pointing out the grain of salt.


    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I did not know that. Well, just more reason for me to like F&R over CoE. 125% all the time, versus 200% during your burst phase multiplicative with an additional 100% because now you have room for Endless Walk and also 50% toughness from your cubed unity/Halo/Elusive, or a ton of cooldowns from your OROTZ, etc.
    Fixed that for you

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    True, but it's not as if the amulet slot doesn't also have some useful effects. Unity is only relevant in a solo build, and soloing in D3 is a punishment I would not bother to endure.
    You kinda have to if you want Primals though. To say nothing of various season goals that also require solo play. And Group has the problem of not really knowing how effective your build really is unless you're able to help push 100+ content. Anything less than that and you may simply be getting carried.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You kinda have to if you want Primals though. To say nothing of various season goals that also require solo play. And Group has the problem of not really knowing how effective your build really is unless you're able to help push 100+ content. Anything less than that and you may simply be getting carried.
    And this is why I have no interest in pushing grift leaderboards. Fun goes out the window, you don't get to use the abilities you enjoy, everything has to be tailored to fuel a very specific spec that's more or less dictated by itemization. Yes, I get that firebats is the optimal Doc build, but Good Lord, if I have to use it to push a 100+ grift, I don't care to get that high.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    And this is why I have no interest in pushing grift leaderboards. Fun goes out the window, you don't get to use the abilities you enjoy, everything has to be tailored to fuel a very specific spec that's more or less dictated by itemization. Yes, I get that firebats is the optimal Doc build, but Good Lord, if I have to use it to push a 100+ grift, I don't care to get that high.
    And that is 100% absolutely fine, nobody is saying you have to push anything. (GR 70 isn't really pushing anyway - it's more of the baseline expectation if you intend to speedfarm T13. Not sure if any of the leaderboards go down to 70 anymore.)

    But when you're giving advice like "F+R beats EW+CoE" - you're going to get pushback from the people who know that isn't the case all or even most of the time anymore. There are certainly specific builds that use F+R effectively, but there are more that use EW, plenty that use LoN, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    And this is why I have no interest in pushing grift leaderboards. Fun goes out the window, you don't get to use the abilities you enjoy, everything has to be tailored to fuel a very specific spec that's more or less dictated by itemization. Yes, I get that firebats is the optimal Doc build, but Good Lord, if I have to use it to push a 100+ grift, I don't care to get that high.
    There's a difference between group builds and solo builds. The Firebats group WD build is only optimal in an optimized group at higher GR levels. If you play it solo, it's too squishy until you turn the difficulty down to the point that it can survive, and there are other builds that can clear the same content and do it faster at those difficulties.
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    I think I had started a Barbarian with my ex wife, but I thought it was farther along. With the season over I decided to go back. Gem of Ease'd a
    Stalgard's Decimator that I had, mostly since it was the best ancient sword I had and everyone can use 2-handed swords so I could us it for any alts I wanted to bring up. Things just dies around me, many times it didn't even seem like I used abilities, just a few cube things. Just that got me to T7 (pre-70), though it probably only took an hour to get to 70. Once I got to 70 I had to cut back to about T5 until I got the crafted set items made. And at this point T8 is pretty easy.

    It is hard to really judge since this character had the great weapon as well as my (rather paltry) 650ish Paragon points, but it just seems so much more capable than my monk was. It just seems like right now, after not all that much play, he is about where the monk was once I got the full Inna set.

    I'm sure there are build names that I just don't know yet because I don't follow the meta, but it seems right now the RNG gods want me to go the flaming bunny build, which I've seen done to great effect but not really want I was wanting specifically. Looking at the sets, there is also the pet build, which seems cool, except that all of my other characters have ended up on the pet builds so far. I'm thinking I might go for a "simplicity" build, F&R, simplicity strength, oathkeeper, and undisputed champion. I'm thinking that the Earth set is probably the best set to go with but I'm not entirely sure. I do like when frenzy is going and I'm swinging the giant sword around several times a second.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Gah! I just recycled my Ancient Hellfire Ring!!!! (Curse my inattention while clearing out my inbox! )

    What's the probability for getting a new one? I seem to recall that about 1 in 10 legendary should be an ancient one (and one in ten of those should be Primal if you've soloed GR70)

    Assuming there are 5 acceptable passives (out of 18 total).
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    I'm sure there are build names that I just don't know yet because I don't follow the meta, but it seems right now the RNG gods want me to go the flaming bunny build, which I've seen done to great effect but not really want I was wanting specifically.
    ...the what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Gah! I just recycled my Ancient Hellfire Ring!!!! (Curse my inattention while clearing out my inbox! )

    What's the probability for getting a new one? I seem to recall that about 1 in 10 legendary should be an ancient one (and one in ten of those should be Primal if you've soloed GR70)

    Assuming there are 5 acceptable passives (out of 18 total).
    Hellfire Ring? I wouldn't bother burning resources to get that back personally. There are just too many better rings out there for every build.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...the what now?
    Where you just use leap and leave an earthquake where you land. They just seem to always be jumping and fire everyone, so I went with flaming bunny. Fitting name for a barbarian too, I think.

    Oh, and you have to solo GR70 before Primals will drop? Or that they only drop in GR70 and above?
    Last edited by Erloas; Today at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Yeah, you have to Solo 70 before Primals add to the drop table.
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    I assume that also means within the time period?

    Does that only unlock for the character, or for the account? I'll have to make that push then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Where you just use leap and leave an earthquake where you land. They just seem to always be jumping and fire everyone, so I went with flaming bunny. Fitting name for a barbarian too, I think.
    Ah I should have thought of that. (I think of it by its community name, Leapquake.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    Oh, and you have to solo GR70 before Primals will drop? Or that they only drop in GR70 and above?
    You have to solo GR70 before they start appearing. Unlocking them outside of a season is treated as separate as well - you'll need a seasonal character to hit the same milestone before any of your seasonal characters can start finding them either, each season.
    Last edited by Psyren; Today at 04:11 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But when you're giving advice like "F+R beats EW+CoE" - you're going to get pushback from the people who know that isn't the case all or even most of the time anymore. There are certainly specific builds that use F+R effectively, but there are more that use EW, plenty that use LoN, etc.
    I don't recall saying any such thing as 'F&R beats CoE'. Here's what I said on that point:

    I'm of the opinion that it's a mediocre choice for a single-color spec, and it will certainly curtial your fun, and possibly your overall damage output, compared to a more steady bonus.
    At no point did I suggest that my opinion is fact, and have taken great pains to highlight that CoE doesn't appeal to me. Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from using CoE + F&R with the Cube (except, of course, wanting another ring effect more. Hey, trade-offs, go figure). Ultimately, since the undisputed strongest build for grifing is a Tal Build, the whole CoE argument is really moot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I don't recall saying any such thing as 'F&R beats CoE'. Here's what I said on that point:



    At no point did I suggest that my opinion is fact, and have taken great pains to highlight that CoE doesn't appeal to me. Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from using CoE + F&R with the Cube (except, of course, wanting another ring effect more. Hey, trade-offs, go figure). Ultimately, since the undisputed strongest build for grifing is a Tal Build, the whole CoE argument is really moot.
    Eh. I've been playing a modified LoN Bombardment build with CoE. Saying that my fun is curtailed when I get that moment when my Belt, CoE, Iron Skin/Condemn/Consecration all line up perfectly is just flat out wrong. Watching a GRift Boss just melt in like 4 seconds when you've spent the last 30 seconds wailing on it to do 15% damage is pure essence.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I don't recall saying any such thing as 'F&R beats CoE'. Here's what I said on that point:



    At no point did I suggest that my opinion is fact, and have taken great pains to highlight that CoE doesn't appeal to me.
    And I'm totally fine with the "doesn't appeal to me" part. It's the incorrect assertions masquerading as fact from your second quote that I had to respond to.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from using CoE + F&R with the Cube (except, of course, wanting another ring effect more. Hey, trade-offs, go figure).
    Indeed, which is why I listed all those other rings you'd be giving up by doing exactly that

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Ultimately, since the undisputed strongest build for grifing is a Tal Build, the whole CoE argument is really moot.
    Not really. Even if chasing leaderboards is truly your thing, there are leaderboards for every class, so gunning for the top wizard build in the world isn't necessary at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And I'm totally fine with the "doesn't appeal to me" part. It's the incorrect assertions masquerading as fact from your second quote that I had to respond to.
    What is this legendary second quote to which you refer? I think I've been pretty clear throughout my posts to highlight that I've been talking about my preferences, proclivities and opinions. I shouldn't need to disclaim that with every single sentence. When I say I think something's preferable, I'm saying I prefer it. When I say something is less fun, I mean it is less fun in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Eh. I've been playing a modified LoN Bombardment build with CoE. Saying that my fun is curtailed when I get that moment when my Belt, CoE, Iron Skin/Condemn/Consecration all line up perfectly is just flat out wrong. Watching a GRift Boss just melt in like 4 seconds when you've spent the last 30 seconds wailing on it to do 15% damage is pure essence.
    Sure, but you do realize that the reason that you're wailing on it for 30 seconds to do 15% damage is because you've got a build that's designed to do damage precisely when all your buffs line up, right? If that appeals to you, enjoy. See above.

    Not really. Even if chasing leaderboards is truly your thing, there are leaderboards for every class, so gunning for the top wizard build in the world isn't necessary at all.
    True, in my case, the undisputed Doc leader build is LoN w/ RoE, so again, moot. In any case, if you're looking for cookie-cutter builds that will get you to the leaderboards for any class, none of our inputs are required. The top builds are well-documented.

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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    I don't recall saying any such thing as 'F&R beats CoE'. Here's what I said on that point:



    At no point did I suggest that my opinion is fact, and have taken great pains to highlight that CoE doesn't appeal to me. Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from using CoE + F&R with the Cube (except, of course, wanting another ring effect more. Hey, trade-offs, go figure). Ultimately, since the undisputed strongest build for grifing is a Tal Build, the whole CoE argument is really moot.
    The Tal Archon build uses CoE instead of OROTZ for 4-man GR pushes, FYI. For Solo GRs you're just too squishy outside of Archon form so you stay out as little as possible and use OROTZ to knock off those last few seconds. CoE is PERFECT for Tal Vyr Hydra because you only get your real burst in the first eight seconds of Archon anyways. If you could get an extra Jewelry slot in the cube, it would be in the soloing build too.
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    What is this legendary second quote to which you refer?
    The part in your last post after "here's what I said on that point" - "I'm of the opinion that it's a mediocre choice for a single-color spec, and it will certainly curtial your fun, and possibly your overall damage output, compared to a more steady bonus." You can certainly be of the opinion that it's less fun, not disputing that at all. But being mediocre choices for a single-color (did you mean element?) spec, and curtailing damage output, are both factual errors, not merely differing opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Sure, but you do realize that the reason that you're wailing on it for 30 seconds to do 15% damage is because you've got a build that's designed to do damage precisely when all your buffs line up, right? If that appeals to you, enjoy. See above.
    If that's how the build works, that's how it works. Nothing he can do about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    True, in my case, the undisputed Doc leader build is LoN w/ RoE, so again, moot.
    Moot for you, I'll agree with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Gah! I just recycled my Ancient Hellfire Ring!!!! (Curse my inattention while clearing out my inbox! )

    What's the probability for getting a new one? I seem to recall that about 1 in 10 legendary should be an ancient one (and one in ten of those should be Primal if you've soloed GR70)

    Assuming there are 5 acceptable passives (out of 18 total).
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Hellfire Ring? I wouldn't bother burning resources to get that back personally. There are just too many better rings out there for every build.
    Oops. No, I meant the Hellfire Amulet, not the ring.

    What are the ancient and primal drop rates, relative to regular legendaries?
    Last edited by Lord Torath; Today at 09:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Oops. No, I meant the Hellfire Amulet, not the ring.

    What are the ancient and primal drop rates, relative to regular legendaries?
    I think it's 1 in 10 for ancient and 1 in 10 of those for primal (so 1 in 100 legs = primal) but don't quote me on that.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Diablo III:3 Kanai Fix It?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    Sure, but you do realize that the reason that you're wailing on it for 30 seconds to do 15% damage is because you've got a build that's designed to do damage precisely when all your buffs line up, right? If that appeals to you, enjoy. See above.
    Yep. And you said I couldn't have fun because I wasn't doing consistent damage, but instead deal more damage over the same time period because of that alignment synergy. 200% 1/4 of the time is 50%, vs 30% for SoJ. You're wrong mathematically, and you're wrong in telling me that I don't enjoy killing enemies 40% quicker than the second BIS. I did use to SoJ with it. I went up 5 GR levels with the use of this item, because you can effectively time it so that you're only killing elites when it cycles to Phys - in which case pop your abilities, and deal 200% damage, rather than 30%, and enjoy your 667% faster kill speed.

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