Civ 5 GMR 15: Return to normalcy

[Zevox]

Spoiler: America (The_Snark)

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OOC: I do not have Atomic Theory researched. I am researching it now, but the research time is not good after all the nuking I've taken - another 8 turns.

On the tech theft, I'd say my country IC would be inclined to be inflexible on that, particularly since you stole from them once before.

[Illven]

Spoiler: Spectator sunday war update

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Ethiopia continues to drop paratroopers into Chinese territory, the only way they can do real damage.









The Ethiopians continue to bribe the Mayans into warring us. We will make peace as soon as we are able.





With Morocco losing a city state ally we immediately make peace with it.



As Pacal starts plundering trade routes.



The citizens of Translyania take up guns in the defense of the homeland.



As our infantry improve in defense against ranged strikes.




As our battleships train to fight in the open seas.




It's time for a new golden age of the Chinese people.




As we master the arts of rationalism.




We figure out the study of advanced ballistics.



As we find out that we have completely surpassed the Ethopian's in research.



Our warriors continue to watch the western shores.



As our caravels make the return trip.





And other ships continue to their destination.









Meanwhile our planes have jobs to do.



Victory at any cost!









One great scientist is used. The others are saved.



Having finished combined arms, our people linked in arms start on the study of ecology.








Our town forces report few problems.













As front line forces hold the line.



The atomic weapon is rebased.



Our work bands continue improving the land.



Here we see the glorious tech tree of the Chinese empire.



Maps of the capital. Working on putting a person on the moon.



Midastopia working on another cargo ship.



Guangzhou working on yet another bomber.



Southharbor working on an armory.




And Northington and Lost in thoughts work on more bombers.



Beijing on a mint.




Here we see the glorious Chinese government having finished rationalism.



The world leader vote.



The scholars say we have the best harvest, the best goods produced, the most land, and the most literacy.




Mayan tourism.














Information on our nations foes.

[Illven]

It is with great joy, that I am able to announce that Panama city has been liberated from Ethiopian occupation forces. Chinese forces fought long and hard to drive back the Ethiopian soldiers that had installed a puppet regime, and at long last with air from the air squadrons they were successful. Panama citizens scattered around the world are encouraged to return to the city to celebrate their lives as freed citizens of Panama.

~A small transcript from Cassandra Truman in the summer of 1880.

[The_Snark]

Spoiler: The_Snark (America)

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Our temples weep at the Mayan's foolhardy assault on you.

Our warrior priests could take on the Khan and reclaim our land if your forces are tied up with the eastern front. We'd also be willing to send the aluminum and three shipments of oil to support your forces. Would that be acceptable to you?

Our other option is to allow you to secure the city, but we would request a sizable portion of oil to support our own war effort. Unfortunately, the black gold hardly lies within our secured borders.

Spoiler: Morocco

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Whoo. Sorry 'bout the late reply; the Mayans're hitting us a lot harder'n we thought. Far as we can tell, they didn't do jack when they fought the Chinese, and sure we're a lot closer, but we weren't expectin' them to move so fast. Gonna have to put any plans for the Khan on hold, though we can't hardly sto ya if you feel like goin' for it. They got more than just oil, we reckon they've got some deposits of that newfangled radiactive stuff in there too.

Anyhow. We got our boys over to the eastern front now, so things're startin' to turn around. Problem is, they've pushed up to Boston, and that means our supplies of aluminum and oil are behind enemy lines. We're tryin' to keep them too busy to cut us off, but it won't work forever.

Now, I figure there's not much you can do about the oil - that stuff's scarce - but we'd just need a bit of aluminum to keep our advanced artillery workin'. Figured we'd offer a deal. If ya don't like it, send on over a counteroffer, this here's a bit time-sensitive.

[Illven]

So OOC question here Austria I assume the 4 votes to Maya are part of a deal for resources or something.

But America and Austria how does voting Morocco world host help you win? I mean I could see voting for Ethopia, or Austria, or America yourselves to make sure it's you guys with the bonus votes, and not the AI, but Morocco already had more votes then Maya.

Spoiler: Sunday spectator update

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Gesyer pass has clearly not adopted a religion.



No world leader.



As our trade ships ram directly into Morocco ships. They sink for obvious reasons.





But our troops are better then ever.



Paratroopers start moving...

It's late, half my pictures didn't upload, I have a headache, and my mom had a night terror, you have the pictures that uploaded, I'm going to go doze.

[DodgerH2O]

Spoiler: OOC

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OOC: Firstly I don't play GMR games to win. Victory conditions of course inform my play however I play them to collaborate in a roleplaying experience with other people, a thing that the single player AI cannot give me. If I played to win I would have quit shortly after losing my capital but I know I personally much prefer other humans in my games so I stuck around to avoid saddling this game with another AI player.

As to my voting, it was merely that Morocco has remained on good terms with Austria for our entire acquaintance and I'm unsure of how much longer Ethiopia will be around, what with the vast nuclear devastation being wrought upon their people. Voting for myself would not have gained me anything at all, at least this way a friendly nation with a human ruler is gaining a benefit.

[The_Snark]

There's clearly no point voting for myself, with my measly 4 votes, and Morocco's an ally right now. Their victory isn't guaranteed, since someone could throw their votes to the Maya to get a less-threatening computer picked as host. Mostly, though, I figured my 4 votes would be unlikely to make a difference either way.

(If I have miscalculated somewhere and my votes just gave Morocco a diplomatic victory, I will be mildly chagrined. But not too much, because my odds of victory are looking pretty low.)

[Illven]

Their victory isn't guaranteed, since someone could throw their votes to the Maya to get a less-threatening computer picked as host.

This isn't a world host vote, this is a world leader vote otherwise I wouldn't give a ****.

But realistically, how am I going to fight literally 3 whole players at once. If you're both going to vote Morocco world leader continuously, there's a decent chance they win next vote. You three just need to get three city states on your side that aren't on your side now. That's most likely a Morocco win in 12-13 turns. We might as well call game right now?

[The_Snark]

... doesn't the result of the World Leader vote also determine the new host, assuming the game hasn't ended? It's been a long time since I saw a diplomatic victory, I'm a little rusty with the mechanics.

[DodgerH2O]

Spoiler: OOC

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This isn't a world host vote, this is a world leader vote otherwise I wouldn't give a ****.

But realistically, how am I going to fight literally 3 whole players at once. If you're both going to vote Morocco world leader continuously, there's a decent chance they win next vote. You three just need to get three city states on your side that aren't on your side now. That's most likely a Morocco win in 12-13 turns. We might as well call game right now?

More OOC: Oh, I forgot the additional reason: I did the math and decided that Morocco was not going to have enough votes for a diplo win (assuming sane choices for players and that the AI never votes for anyone except itself barring specific circumstances) so it was safe to put my remaining votes there without the worry of game over. If it looks like they have enough to win I won't throw my votes there so don't worry about that.

Unless I don't pay sufficient attention but now that you've mentioned it I should remember when the next round comes along.

And realistically, you should be trying to convince (in-character I mean) or wipe out one or more of those three players rather than griping about it. China has the resources for some really nice bribes and/or overwhelming force. 13 turns is practically forever at this stage of the game.

[Illven]

... doesn't the result of the World Leader vote also determine the new host, assuming the game hasn't ended? It's been a long time since I saw a diplomatic victory, I'm a little rusty with the mechanics.

Nope as far as I'm aware. It's one of two things happen. I'm not sure which but I'm leaning towards 2.

1 The congress is in atomic era currently, when half the players hit info era there will be a new world host vote.
2 There is no change in the world congress era, Morocco is host till the end of the game.

A failed vote does give 2 bonus votes to the 2 people with the most votes. (Not sure how ties are broken) But it does not influence who the new host is as far as I'm aware.

[Illven]

And realistically, you should be trying to convince (in-character I mean) or wipe out one or more of those three players rather than griping about it. China has the resources for some really nice bribes and/or overwhelming force. 13 turns is practically forever at this stage of the game.

I can't convince in character. I have Ethiopia and America literally making up facts about the a.bomb to turn me into an international pariah. (While Ethiopia simultaneously insists on their actions being role-played to have the best possible light.)

I guess maybe I can convince Morocco not to vote for themselves but that's literally about it. I mean besides I guess genociding you, but if people are going to make up things, I'm loathe to think how they'd respond to a genocide.

[DodgerH2O]

Spoiler: OOC

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Rereading what I wrote last post it came off snarkier than I intended, apologies.

However, if you really were worried about Morocco achieving a diplo victory you have the resources to delay or prevent it. Yes there will be costs, possibly including what little goodwill might remain towards your civ, but well... that's the game. You can't have everything. Offer gold per turn, donate troops, luxuries, votes, a ceasefire... there's a lot of options for convincing that might work on a human or an AI. Words are great, but words plus incentive are better. That's what I mean by convincing. It may be too late but you won't know if you don't try.

*shrug* There are so many things that GMR offers by having real humans, negotiation is a thing whereas the AI is binary yes/no. Get creative.

[Illven]

OOC Continues: Rereading what I wrote last post it came off snarkier than I intended, apologies.

However, if you really were worried about Morocco achieving a diplo victory you have the resources to delay or prevent it. Yes there will be costs, possibly including what little goodwill might remain towards your civ, but well... that's the game. You can't have everything. Offer gold per turn, donate troops, luxuries, votes, a ceasefire... there's a lot of options for convincing that might work on a human or an AI. Words are great, but words plus incentive are better. That's what I mean by convincing. It may be too late but you won't know if you don't try.

*shrug* There are so many things that GMR offers by having real humans, negotiation is a thing whereas the AI is binary yes/no. Get creative.

OOC Assuming the other players don't literally give the game to Morocco. (Or some other player of course) I'm not really worried about Morocco winning diplo on their own. At least not before I win a science victory. However I am being actively slown down from the science victory. (Which is fair), while Morocco was aided. (Admittedly nothing came of the aided but still.)

As for your suggestions I don't have a consistent gold per turn, because my trade routes are being actively pillaged, rightfully so we're at war. I can't donate troops, they'd have to get there and I'm at war with both of you. Luxuries we're at war. Votes are something I can potentially trade once I know what's on the docket, and as for a ceasefire, frankly I'd love one so I can work on my science victory in peace. But you want your former capital for nothing, so I can't imagine what you would want for not voting Morocco world host in a game where you don't care who wins as long as I don't. Morocco's refusing peace unless Ethiopia accepts peace. Ethiopia even though they claimed that a peace deal would remain on the table during the duration of the war, have reneged on that deal and Zevox has outright told me they are staying in the game just to prevent me from peaceing the AI so that's a dead end although they aren't voting Morocco world host. America's at war just to slow me down, fair enough. So I can't imagine them giving me a peace deal, but they also shouldn't be voting for the lead to win world host.

One of the disadvantages of playing against humans compared to Civ 5 AI, is that the human players can outright decide that they don't care who wins as long as a particular player doesn't. I can't imagine you'd be much happier, and to be clear this is in no way intended as a threat. If I decided in 14 to take a bunch of frigates and suicide them into you just for the purposes of slowing you down. Or the snark and again this is not way intended as a threat. If I took a bunch of Horseman and suicided into them for the purpose of slowing them down. You yourself do have some roleplaying reason. In a calmer mind I can see the in-character reason. but you're earlier statement about "I play them to collaborate in a roleplaying experience with other people" I don't feel like I'm being collaborated with Ethiopia and somewhat although to a much lesser extent America. I don't feel like they should be telling me what my weapons do without pointing to in game effects. Which in the case of the a.bomb do not include indiscriminate killing. I had to hunt down most of Ethopia's troops with bombers. They don't poison the land, it's about as repairable as a pillaged tile. Which gods know both you and Ethopia have done to me, and I've done back. Standing next to my citadels is more dangerous for you then standing in my fallout. But Zevox protests an ambiguous situation that I eventually agree to, while my pointing out concrete facts is derided as "extremely silly".

tl;dr OOC Assuming you all play to win, I don't think I have anything to worry about, and should you slow me down enough that Morocco wins, so be it. IC I agree that you can have some IC reason for doing a everyone but Illven approach. But I don't agree with America doing so, and IC's a sore subject with Ethiopia due to several disagreements on their characterization.

[thirsting]

Spoiler: Austria

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Our archeologists are itching to get their hands on the ruins near Westport. They don't really care whether they get to take anything back home or whether they should restore the place enough to make it into a tourist attraction; they will be happy either way, and just want to get there to study the place properly.

Will you let them do their work inside your lands, or should we call them back?

~ Portuguese Ambassador

[Zevox]

Okay, Illven, two things here:

I can't convince in character. I have Ethiopia and America literally making up facts about the a.bomb to turn me into an international pariah. (While Ethiopia simultaneously insists on their actions being role-played to have the best possible light.)

I don't feel like they should be telling me what my weapons do without pointing to in game effects. Which in the case of the a.bomb do not include indiscriminate killing. I had to hunt down most of Ethopia's troops with bombers. They don't poison the land, it's about as repairable as a pillaged tile. Which gods know both you and Ethopia have done to me, and I've done back. Standing next to my citadels is more dangerous for you then standing in my fallout. But Zevox protests an ambiguous situation that I eventually agree to, while my pointing out concrete facts is derided as "extremely silly".

I have made up absolutely nothing. What I am not doing that you seem to want me to do is act as though in-game mechanics should be considered literal reality for role-playing purposes. I consider your suggestion that atomic bombs are somehow not nearly as bad as they actually are in real life just as ludicrous as talking in-character about everyone taking turns moving their units around - I would never do that. That's not roleplaying, it's playing the game out-of-character. It would be like playing a D&D character and having them say that hitting someone with a sword is no big deal as long as you don't reduce their hit points to 0 - completely absurd to even consider. Game mechanics and roleplaying are two very separate things, often even in actual roleplaying games, much less games like this that aren't designed with roleplaying in mind in the first place.

Second, and probably more importantly, this:

tl;dr OOC Assuming you all play to win,

This seems to be a central assumption of yours all of the time. You do realize nobody is in any way obligated to do that, right? Everybody can play the game how they want, for whatever reasons they want. And if that makes things harder on you, oh well - nobody is obligated to do things that make things easier on you, either. Heck, if all of us were to decide to vote for Morocco or anyone else to be world leader and make them the winner, that would be a wholly legitimate move that you should have no more right to complain about than any other - that, too, is a part of the game.

The issue I'm seeing here is, you are stepping into the territory of telling others how they should be playing the game. You, out-of-character, are objecting to a decision that two other players made, evidently because you fear it might cause you to lose in an unforeseen way, as if that decision was somehow illegitimate, rather than wholly theirs to make for whatever reasons they so choose. That's not okay. As Dodger has said, if you're worried about something potentially costing you the game, do something about it in-game, don't complain about the players choosing to do it as if it's not okay that it's happening at all.

[Illven]

I have made up absolutely nothing. What I am not doing that you seem to want me to do is act as though in-game mechanics should be considered literal reality for role-playing purposes. I consider your suggestion that atomic bombs are somehow not nearly as bad as they actually are in real life just as ludicrous as talking in-character about everyone taking turns moving their units around - I would never do that. That's not roleplaying, it's playing the game out-of-character. It would be like playing a D&D character and having them say that hitting someone with a sword is no big deal as long as you don't reduce their hit points to 0 - completely absurd to even consider. Game mechanics and roleplaying are two very separate things, often even in actual roleplaying games, much less games like this that aren't designed with roleplaying in mind in the first place.

Second, and probably more importantly, this:

This seems to be a central assumption of yours all of the time. You do realize nobody is in any way obligated to do that, right? Everybody can play the game how they want, for whatever reasons they want. And if that makes things harder on you, oh well - nobody is obligated to do things that make things easier on you, either. Heck, if all of us were to decide to vote for Morocco or anyone else to be world leader and make them the winner, that would be a wholly legitimate move that you should have no more right to complain about than any other - that, too, is a part of the game.

The issue I'm seeing here is, you are stepping into the territory of telling others how they should be playing the game. You, out-of-character, are objecting to a decision that two other players made, evidently because you fear it might cause you to lose in an unforeseen way, as if that decision was somehow illegitimate, rather than wholly theirs to make for whatever reasons they so choose. That's not okay. As Dodger has said, if you're worried about something potentially costing you the game, do something about it in-game, don't complain about the players choosing to do it as if it's not okay that it's happening at all.

So peace is still on the table? Because I recall you telling me that if I dropped an a.bomb it would be perma war. In direct contradiction of and I'm quoting you here. "As we do not wish war, we will leave the option to actually accept our terms open to you throughout what is to come. It is clear enough that you have no intention of accepting them now, though, so it seems that, even if you are dishonorable enough to refuse to say it, you are choosing war." Don't see anything about an unless you use nuclear weapons. One of your conditions was literally voting to block nuclear weapons. I checked for white text so that's not it. Or did you make something up?

And I consider your "But I didn't commit genocide." absolutely ludicrous. But I still went along with it. But let me comprise even more when I shouldn't have to, and okay a.bombs are as dangerous as they are in real life. In character. How the bloody hell do you know about fallout? You were and are behind me technology and when we first used a.bombs we didn't know about the horrifying effects of them. Literally one of our battle plans was to march troops through irradiated fallout 48 hours after a bomb going off. As far as your leader should be concerned, we just have a really really big bomb. As far as my leader should be concerned for at least the first bomb, it's just a really big bomb. Right now I don't know what your tech level is, but maybe you would know in character now. My nation would almost certainly be aware. At the time. No. You were metagaming your knowledge of the effects of fallout. You are not reacting in character.

And second so. And this is no way a threat, but you would be completely fine with me suiciding into you in 18? That is a valid way to play right? Why shouldn't I do it in hypothetical 19, or 20, etc. etc. I'm not going to because I feel like it's a **** move, but I don't think you'd be any happier.

[Zevox]

So peace is still on the table? Because I recall you telling me that if I dropped an a.bomb it would be perma war. In direct contradiction of and I'm quoting you here. "As we do not wish war, we will leave the option to actually accept our terms open to you throughout what is to come. It is clear enough that you have no intention of accepting them now, though, so it seems that, even if you are dishonorable enough to refuse to say it, you are choosing war." Don't see anything about an unless you use nuclear weapons. One of your conditions was literally voting to block nuclear weapons. I checked for white text so that's not it. Or did you make something up?

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I just said or responded to, but since you still wish to discuss it: no, obvious peace is not still on the table, as I made clear IC a while ago. And several points to make about that particular issue of yours:

1) As I've told you many times before, I was not writing a contract when I made that remark. Not mentioning nukes doesn't mean nukes can't change the circumstances, and thus what my nation would think of giving you any offer of peace.
2) You seem to have attached to that as some reason to distrust me out-of-character, but it was a remark that I made in-character, not out. Out of character, I never promised anything to you. Further, I warned you out-of-character ahead of time once I realized the nuke thing was a possibility and would change that significantly.
3) You never even attempted to actually accept that deal, either before or after using the nukes. Whether it was on the table or off would change nothing, because you would never accept the part about returning Austria's lands to them, which makes any objection related to it ring pretty hollow.

The only thing that is made-up here is your notion that that was somehow a transgression on my part. That is a wholly imagined slight on your part, and one that I am frankly sick of you seeming to hold against me as a grudge.

And I consider your "But I didn't commit genocide." absolutely ludicrous. But I still went along with it. But let me comprise even more when I shouldn't have to, and okay a.bombs are as dangerous as they are in real life. In character. How the bloody hell do you know about fallout? You were and are behind me technology and when we first used a.bombs we didn't know about the horrifying effects of them. Literally one of our battle plans was to march troops through irradiated fallout 48 hours after a bomb going off. As far as your leader should be concerned, we just have a really really big bomb. As far as my leader should be concerned for at least the first bomb, it's just a really big bomb. Right now I don't know what your tech level is, but maybe you would know in character now. My nation would almost certainly be aware. At the time. No. You were metagaming your knowledge of the effects of fallout. You are not reacting in character.

That you at least can make an argument on, I'll grant. My reasoning at the time though was that the Mayans had developed the weapons some time ago - I figured that a basic knowledge of what they did would spread quickly enough by that era of time. And I can prove to you that I was thinking that before you using nukes seemed like a realistic possibility to me: because that's why my nation was concerned about them and included the nuclear non-proliferation part of the peace terms to begin with. If they thought they were just big bombs, they wouldn't have been treating them as a grave enough threat to warrant something like that.

And second so. And this is no way a threat, but you would be completely fine with me suiciding into you in 18? That is a valid way to play right? Why shouldn't I do it in hypothetical 19, or 20, etc. etc. I'm not going to because I feel like it's a **** move, but I don't think you'd be any happier.

Yes. I wouldn't be happy about it, as you say, but I wouldn't act as though it was some illegitimate move on your part. If we were in a war there that you decided to take to the bitter end, that's your choice. And yeah, that wouldn't be much of a threat, since as I told you last night I probably won't stay in 18 much longer anyway.

[DodgerH2O]

Spoiler: Portugal

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If the dig site lies where your Archaeologists stand right now then know that those deer provide much needed food for our outpost and we would need to reconstruct the Camp built there. We care not if you keep the relics you find but we do not currently have a work crew fit for repairing the area afterward.

We offer two options: Donate your own citizens for the purpose, to return afterward, or pay for the cost to our coffers to hire a work crew, currently the lowest bid estimates 220 gold. (OOC: I don't think you can build improvements in other civ's borders, but if you can that's also an option, otherwise I'd just gift back the Worker after I finish if you gifted a unit to me.)

If you have other ideas we are also open to alternatives.

[thirsting]

Spoiler: Austria

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Our archaeologists have arrived at the spot. They wish to send you their sincerest thank you for this opportunity, and were surprised your scholars had no previous knowledge of the cultural significance of this place!

We have sent you the funds to hire enough skilled workers to repair any possible damage caused by the dig site.

~ Portuguese Ambassador

((Is gifting units to other players even possible? I couldn't figure out a way.))

[The_Snark]

Spoiler: Morocco

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Howdy agin. You'll be glad t'hear our aluminum mines are safe, we've got the Mayans outta our territory (mostly) and it's time ta start pushing back. Bad news is, they got at our main oil well, and it'll be a few turns before we can get that secure and runnin' again. We'd like to ask for a loan of your oil; I don't 'spect just our spices are a good enough price, so add whatever y'like to your counter-offer. This here's a short-term thing, we figure in 5-10 turns we can turn around and give you the oil back.

[Illven]

Spoiler: Morocco;Ray Gallade

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How do you feel about the latest proposals on the United nations docket?

~President Cassandra Truman.

Spoiler: Thristing;Portugal

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How do you feel about the latest proposals on the United nations docket?

~President Cassandra Truman.

[RayGallade]

Spoiler: Illven (China)

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Our temples are inclined to reject both measures. We suggested banning the consumption of crabs merely because the other options, frankly, were not suitable.

[thirsting]

Spoiler: China

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We are largely indifferent about these proposals, but will oppose them both anyway; The ban of crab trade on general principle (any obstruction to free trade is bad for business), and the games because we frankly do not see the merit of investing in something as non-productive as running around in circles or throwing a clay disc... (and we fail to see how we could draw any profits from this costly ordeal)

- Portuguese Ambassador

[Illven]

If can get a turn timer extension possibly my mom's delirous I'll try taking my turns but no promise.

Turn taken.

[Zevox]

Barring significant objections, I've disabled the turn timer until further notice from Illven.

[sabashahid]

I'm flexible on Civ, but as I'd like to try something different I'm leaning towards Japan or Austria.

Japan and Austria what do you mean by that you mean the language?

[Illven]

So uh. Happy the bot didn't quote anything in spoilers.

In any case, my mom went to the hospital, long and short of it is she'll need to go to a rehab place because she can't work, but she'll be okay. The turm timer can go back up at will.

[Zevox]

In any case, my mom went to the hospital, long and short of it is she'll need to go to a rehab place because she can't work, but she'll be okay. The turm timer can go back up at will.

Good to here she'll be okay.

In that case, unless anyone else objects, I will reinstate the timer for 1 day as per normal.

[Illven]

It's um. It'd let me sell gold to the Mayan twice....

The hell?

Spoiler: Thristing:Portugal

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Do you have plans to bribe the minor nations of the world, to vote for you instead of Morocco for the next world leader?

~President Cassandra Truman of China.