(Design Chat) Cult of Donjon - can't keep a good cult down.

[JanusJones]

How bout a build a class thing for HB? 3.5 is easy for me only 'cause I know it so well. Like to shake the world up a bit, though - make it iconic, but a different SORT of iconic. Like maybe something like Edgar Rice Burroughes style prehistoric world?

Doped out for the new thread! THANKS CAM!

[cameronpants]

What's HB?

I like the idea of using chaoticshiny random generators to create a class name and short description of its strengths and weaknesses, designing it, then giving it to a random Cultist to play. Say, 10 level base class, power level along Swordsage or low-op Sorcerer.

I'll post your results tonight, JJ.

[JanusJones]

Homebrew - love the idea. Some sort of random adjective/noun/verb style generator would be sweet! Total mystery as to the abilities until you level up - we design class and sheet, another cultist plays it.

Awesomesauce!

LOVING your random thread, Cam!

[JanusJones]

Roll your class names!

adverb + verb + adjective + noun!

And build!

My possible:
greet historically impossible freight

Sounds awesome!

[cameronpants]

Transform Swiftly Allied Storm


Whaaaaaat. Cool.


Edit: This was my idea. Name and Function.

For example, after a single try and no retries, here's what I got:

Name:
Wasp Warlord

Function:
This class focuses on tactical skills, a specific physical skill and fighting multiple opponents and is also capable with offensive fighting. They are not very capable with nature skills, exotic weapons and wisdom. The class is restricted by philosophy. They typically use a specific type of magic. They draw power from natural talent.

That also sounds super fun.

[Plerumque]

I got Charge Scarcely Able Preoccupation.

And for Cam's, I got the Cyberserker: This class is best at magical ranged combat and dealing with metaphysical entities. They have no talent for aiding allies, a specific social skill, battlefield control and exotic weapons. They typically use one of several specific types of magic. Certain subclasses are associated with certain philosophies.

Of course, I also have the design chops of a thousand chimpanzees on typewriters.

[cameronpants]

I'm thinking these classes are slotted into the future of our Microscope game, right when the Infosphere goes wireless and new types of magitech are introduced to the fringes of the galaxy. The cyberserker fuses etherealness with digitization and becomes a holy force against the infringing computarcane viruses that roam the slices between the digital world and the ethereal realm. The Wasp Warlord, of course, uses nanotechnology to varying degrees.

P, we're probably the best people on the web to do design work with. All four of us are supportive, wholesome, and have strong desires for the others' ideas to succeed and come to fruition. Think of it like practice and it'll be cake.

I've got the skeleton planned out for the Storm Breather, evoked by the "Transform Swiftly Allied Storm"" result. I have ideas for the Wasp Warlord, but if we go neo-noir cyberpunk then I have to re-evaluate.

EDIT: This whole 'building for each other' idea has got me thinking. Would you guys play a short one to three scene Wild Talents game with characters I designed for you? I've designed and built in the system for years but never ran nor played it. I figure with builds done and having the game just start would help it actually happen. Thoughts? You guys could throw power ideas or concepts at me and I could make them happen, or at least a close approximation.

[Eonas]

I like the idea of one-to-three scene games.

Impressionistic, a bit. And very ADHD, which is my jam.

Indirectly Separate Angry Sanctuary. That's, er. I prefer Psiscout: This class predominantly features wisdom, speedy movement, endurance and magical melee combat and is also capable with healing. They are not very capable with charisma and crafting skills. They draw power from the natural world. They are best known for a specific skill.

That's bloody fun. I'd play that. Or Cam's wild talents thing. I'd play that too.

[JanusJones]

I'm in for ALL of it.

ALL OF IT!

Missed this!

Oh, and on that note, I already got my class idea - and I LOVE the words I got! The "historically greeting impossible freight" class is the school of magic that was developed by the right honorable Tenser, the Planar Ordering of Relative Tension Energy Resonance school - colloquially known as the Poe quest to transporters!

Yep! It's a whole school of magic devoted to moving freight - impossible freight! In the same way it stands to reason we've developed ever-emerging technological advances in the quest to transport goods, so magic would develop - if you're only able to shift huge and heavy loads through space, time, and dimension with ridiculously high-level spells, basic commerce becomes untenable. As magic refined itself, casters went from awkward generalists - handymen with only a working knowledge of the schools who used more raw magic than necessary to get big, but temporary, effects - to specialists in each field, exploring the finer points of how to use magic in tenable, extended, everyday ways to improve mastery of the universe.

Enter the PORTERs.

They begin by mastering the first discovery of their founder: the floating disc. They have, of course, refined the art, and even a low-level porter can always find work with a permanent floating disc for shifting weight. More reliable than a beast of burden or even a cart, and the capacity is immense - hire a porter and they'll get it there!

As they grow in skill and knowledge, they can create more and larger discs, command their discs' movement with less effort, levitate and fly said discs, form environmentally sealed container above them to prevent damage in transit, even enable high speeds and ethereality to move freight, quite literally, to "the other side of the world" ... in a straight line. Teleportation using the discs is of course a final secret.

This class would get moveable tenser's discs to play with. They could be used to bullrush and knockdown in combat, and would grow stronger, faster, more numerous/larger (I'm imagining being able to choose between four 5 square platforms or one large, with the large having the advantage of a size bonus to bull rush) as the class grew. They'd first be able to levitate the disc they stand on, then use flight/overland flight (I'm imagining a second plane of magic used as a sort of sail!). Eventually, they could make a bubble atop the disc that would protect with endure elements, resist planar effects, maybe even a force wall, and go ethereal or teleport their cargo as well. They'd start out surfing around on discs, and end up piloting massive flying magic battleships!

BOOM!

[cameronpants]

Mini-campaign idea for these homebrewed magitech classes: four crewmembers of the U.G.A. Horizon, a cutting-edge scout and probe ship in the furthest reaches of the galaxy. The PORTER, the Anomaly Engineer (combining the Wasp Warlord and the Transform Swiftly Allied Storm), the Psiscout, and the Cyberserker. Their captain just perished in a freak accident, and the first mate has been captured while on a planet-side mission. Without the access codes, the ship will power-down until it is reactivated by United Greyhawk Command- but the ship's inside the commjam of a rogue frigate of spacers. Do they mount a mission to save the first mate? Do they use the little time they have trying to destroy the spacers' jamming signal?

JJ: I love the class. It's... perfect. I like the idea that the classes we're building are much less combat focused than traditional d20 classes, and have many useful functions out of combat.

The Anomaly Engineer will specialize in storms, senses, microbots/nanotech, and superscience investigative abilities. Like an entropomancer void disciple investigator.

[Plerumque]

That random class generator is fun. I tried it a few more times and got 'Hydro-Rogue of Style and Terror,' 'Laser-Artificer-Psion of Order and Envy,' 'Mirror Thief of Lust,' 'Mobius Mage of Memory,' 'Vanity Warlock,' and 'Angel Butcher.'

...That got real dark real fast.

[Eonas]

So what is this, level 6 gestalt?

[cameronpants]

So what is this, level 6 gestalt?

Is what level 6 gestalt?

[Eonas]

The sexy random-class 3.5 magitech game.

[cameronpants]

The sexy random-class 3.5 magitech game.

We should first design the classes. I suggest 10- level base classes. They should focus on non- combat functions more than traditional base classes. Once they're made, we randomize who plays which class. We make 7th level gestalt characters, and the campaign takes us to 10th so we can play all levels. I have plenty of ideas for this, so I can run it, or maybe whoever's interested can take turns running.

Yea. That's nice.

[JanusJones]

Only 10? But the porter is 20, easy!

I'll design all 20, and we'll see where it all leads!

Angel butcher!!!

[cameronpants]

Only 10? But the porter is 20, easy!

I'll design all 20, and we'll see where it all leads!

Angel butcher!!!

While true, I think a 10 level will be easier for the less experienced or less inclined of us. If we all agree, we can totally do a full 20 levels, though I'd prefer to do a single 10 level base class and two 10 level prestige classes that further specialize.

My design hat is on for this one. I've got a system that combines Incarnum with different token pools to make a fun, quick, effective resource management system for in-game fun. Also, I feel we can steal some general ideas from the amazing Gramarie work here on the boards. Just a thought.

Ooh, maybe Gramarie is the other side of our magitech gestalt characters?

[JanusJones]

Meh - I don't know from other folks' homebrew - I'm doing my OWN thing. Some thoughts I scribbled on my phone:

Spoiler: Random Thoughts!

Show

Control disc you ride as a free action
Spellcraft to gain control of unwilling porters discs
Grant control to willing porter
Mounted combat, mounted archery
Improved bull rush, knockback
Improved trip
Spell Effects for Discs:

• Endure elements
• Force wall
• Overland flight
• Flight
• Levitation
• Force wall
• Resist planar effects
• Water breathing
• Freedom of movement
• Reverse gravity
• Etherealness

2 discs per level
Spend a disc to apply an effect to another
You don't have to spend one until you want to
You can cover an existing disc into an effect, but once it becomes an effect, it cannot be used as a disc
Discs resist dispelling
Scaling effects:

• Speed of disc
• Action to control disc you aren't riding (starts as standard to control all other discs, goes to move, then swift, then free)
• Discs can be set to follow you for no cost (train of discs possible)

[Plerumque]

Some ideas:

Cyberserker - This seems fairly straightforward thematically. Probably a class focused on insanity - viruses and the like, over the network. Corrupts their own code in order to increase their speed, but cognition and intelligibility suffers (overclocking themselves, essentially). Uses malware to debuff + disable opponents, take remote control of devices, spy on others.

Mirror Thief of Lust - I can't remember what that race was that could travel through mirrors, but this could be a class-length version of that. Based around casing a joint and breaking and entering. At first, can only see through mirrors, then communicate through them, then step through them. Maybe can steal reflections of things? Not sure where the lust would come in. Perhaps they play at the whole 'I'm you... the perfect you, the you of your dreams,' bit.

Mobius Mage of Memory - Exploits the circular nature of time à la Nietzsche—over the course of the class, expands their own consciousness to the point where they see the past and the future as two sides of the same coin. Focused on knowledge. I'm thinking maybe some sort of reincarnation mechanic where they can make checks to remember things their past or future selves would have known, but only things that would be appropriate for Knowledge checks (i.e. no 'how will this fight turn out?').

Vanity Warlock - Someone who doesn't feel at home in their own skin, and wants to try out as many others as possible. Based around stealing others' faces, knowledge, and skills. Heavily focused on social interactions. The kind of ability I'm envisioning would have very little combat applications (no stealing magic, feats, class abilities, etc.), and make it very difficult to maintain for long enough to pull off a long con, but would be used mostly for causing as much confusion as possible in the short term and learning other people's secrets.

Angel Butcher - As much as I love the implications that spring to mind, sacrifice mechanics rarely work all that well, so I'm thinking something more along the lines of celestial salvage. Sinner trying to save themselves from hell (without having to stop sinning) by grafting bits of holiness to themselves, maybe. Could borrow some mechanics from the Geomancer's Drift, or the Fleshwarper or whatever class it was that got a symbiotic familiar. Probably more interesting conceptually than mechanically.

[cameronpants]

Some ideas:

Cyberserker - This seems fairly straightforward thematically. Probably a class focused on insanity - viruses and the like, over the network. Corrupts their own code in order to increase their speed, but cognition and intelligibility suffers (overclocking themselves, essentially). Uses malware to debuff + disable opponents, take remote control of devices, spy on others.

Mirror Thief of Lust - I can't remember what that race was that could travel through mirrors, but this could be a class-length version of that. Based around casing a joint and breaking and entering. At first, can only see through mirrors, then communicate through them, then step through them. Maybe can steal reflections of things? Not sure where the lust would come in. Perhaps they play at the whole 'I'm you... the perfect you, the you of your dreams,' bit.

Mobius Mage of Memory - Exploits the circular nature of time à la Nietzsche—over the course of the class, expands their own consciousness to the point where they see the past and the future as two sides of the same coin. Focused on knowledge. I'm thinking maybe some sort of reincarnation mechanic where they can make checks to remember things their past or future selves would have known, but only things that would be appropriate for Knowledge checks (i.e. no 'how will this fight turn out?').

Vanity Warlock - Someone who doesn't feel at home in their own skin, and wants to try out as many others as possible. Based around stealing others' faces, knowledge, and skills. Heavily focused on social interactions. The kind of ability I'm envisioning would have very little combat applications (no stealing magic, feats, class abilities, etc.), and make it very difficult to maintain for long enough to pull off a long con, but would be used mostly for causing as much confusion as possible in the short term and learning other people's secrets.

Angel Butcher - As much as I love the implications that spring to mind, sacrifice mechanics rarely work all that well, so I'm thinking something more along the lines of celestial salvage. Sinner trying to save themselves from hell (without having to stop sinning) by grafting bits of holiness to themselves, maybe. Could borrow some mechanics from the Geomancer's Drift, or the Fleshwarper or whatever class it was that got a symbiotic familiar. Probably more interesting conceptually than mechanically.

Those are great. When I first saw Angel Butcher I envisioned it more like A.N.G.E.L. Butcher; A.N.G.E.L. being a single-person magimech combat suit. Iron Man meets Mechwarrior meets Synthesist (PF Summoner Archetype) or Aegis. 'Butcher' being his rank, after Vanquisher and before Dreadblade.

[Plerumque]

Meh. There have been magitech-armor classes designed already far better than I could manage. I'd rather attempt something that I, at least, haven't seen before. Which one, though? Suggestions?

[cameronpants]

You bring up a good point, P. Aside from JJ's Porter, all our ideas have already been done (and done well at that), or cam be recreated by using Gramarie. Should we be homebrewing in 3.5 at all? There's so much amazing stuff out there made by fans already.

Just a thought.

[Eonas]

Just for kicks, I got Blade Druid of Nightmares and Despair, Dimensional Zealot of Confusion, Lightning Scout of Air, Pentacle Scholar of Rebirth and Greed, Storm Barbarian of Treachery, Telemagister of Innocence, and Spider Chain Witch-Warden of Wind
Neutrality.

SO MUCH AWESOME.

I don't want to homebrew. Just wanna build and play!

[JanusJones]

I'm gonna a-men that. How about we just DO something? Like hell, re-boot Adventurer's Guild (I liked that one) or Tower Climb or ANYTHING we've done already?

Porter, by the by, is AWESOME. I did the spell list! He's gonna be a spontaneous caster (REALLY limited list), with 2 discs per level; give UP a disc to make certain spells persistent on his disc (ONLY his disc!). Merge discs to make'em larger, effects stay; split for individual discs, only one keeps effects. Grant control to other people (everybody gets a magical hoverboard!), or use YOUR actions to move'em (you spend YOUR actions so other people don't HAVE to!).

I'm loving the concept.

[cameronpants]

Those are great.

Maybe we should branch out and decide on/devise up a different system than d20? Something that doesn't require vast amounts of homebrew to make a Spider Chain Witch-Warden of Wind and Neutrality and actually have it do stuff somewhat efficiently. I have very little experience with GURPS, but if we agree on skill lists and other factors it could serve us well.
What do you all think?

Edit: wrote before I saw JJ's post. I'd love to revisit Tower Climb. I only vaguely remember Adventurer's Guild, but would still enjoy it.

[Plerumque]

I'd like to veto the notion of GURPS, please. I'm not willing to spend that much time to learn a system legendary for being mechanically complicated, and very suspicious of anything that claims that kind of investment is necessary to tell a good story. You want a flexible system where you can build a Spider Neutral Chain-Witch Wind or whatever, FATE or FUDGE or Donjon or Burning Wheel or some freeform-adjacent system. I appreciate the jigsaw-puzzle pleasure of chargen and combat, but it's rarely what I'm interested in these days.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't be into a Tower Climb or Adventurer's Guild reboot; I definitely could be, although tbh I found Planar Junction and Shadow War more conceptually and Name This Campaign more mechanically interesting. I could also GM, though, and it might be easier for me to get back in the swing of that (though I'll confess that I never bothered learning how to create encounters beyond finding roughly appropriate numbers for HP and saves and cherrypicking a couple interesting special abilities, then winging everything else). Or what about that old dungeon we were building, the Temple of the Leech Queen? What if we rolled up a couple quick characters and took 'em through that?

[JanusJones]

Ooooh! I'll run leech queen; I think I have enough mods to the original script you should be kept on your toes. Incoming!

[Eonas]

Sure. Let's do Leech Queen. I am, as ever, in the mood for ****ed-up. Should we try our random classes? Is there any particular mood you're going for? What level/what's the chargen info?

[JanusJones]

You'll be playing pre gen characters I designed for some friends. Incoming.

[cameronpants]

We can agree to disagree about GURPs. GURPs is only as complicated as you allow it to be. Every ruleset is opinion- we include what we want and ignore the rest. It's basically a 'roll 3d6, hope for lower than your skill' across every situation, from sneaking to hacking to magic to brushing your teeth. The people who claim it's a mechanical monstrosity were gung-ho with 1st edition and wanted every little mechanical oddity in their games. That's not how it was designed to be played. Even in its own introduction it warns against that.

When it comes to PCing, I'd like to avoid the really narrative, fast-and-loose systems like Donjon and FATE (though our idea for Microscope scenes to use those systems still appeals to me). For PCing, I'd like something with more substance. As a GM I'm a lot more open to those freeform-adjacent systems.

The Leech Queen... I vaguely remember that, too. I don't think I helped towards designing any of it though. And pregens are my favourite. Taking something somebody else made and making it my own is almost nearly as fun as building a character myself. Sometimes more so.