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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    I'll let you in on a little secret.

    The unfortunate racial history of the United States of America is of vanishingly little relevance to most of humanity.

    It is completely irrelevant to Ancient Egypt.

    I am aware that once upon a time, one of the USAs founding fathers objected to Scandinavian immigration, on the grounds that they weren't "white people". This, like the rest of the silliness on which your argument depends, is nothing but ignorance. It's a piece of ignorance that one might wish differently of a great intellect, but it is ignorance all the same.

    You are claiming this ignorance should overrule the science on the issue, which is unfashionable and a mess of politics, but is fairly clear. There are multiple types of White/Caucasoid people, of which the Nordic branch you call "generic" is by no means the most numerous nor through most of history has it been the most cultural significant.

    You are also using discrimination as a basis for deciding "Non-White-ness". As previously stated, this is irrelevant or an absurdity when dealing with Ancient Egypt. When applied to more general history it becomes a joke. By the standards you use, Ethiopians are clearly "White" (I'm not arguing that they're not), Estonians clearly "Not". The former have always been the top dogs in their area, the latter have had a history of foreign conquest and serfdom.

    What really bothers me is that you are casually perpetuating the idea the "white" and-well, you haven't actually said what the other option is, for some reason-is a shorthand for "haves" as opposed to "Have-nots" rather than a simple alternative to "caucasian", and then dismissing more correct usage as "unfortunate". I'm presuming you're using the word "unfortunate" as an alternative to "racist".

    And yet your, in your own mind, at least; Non-unfortunate definition appears to simply define "White" as "Those of an Ethnicity favoured by custom and practice in a certain country". Completely destroying any objective meaning the word has and tacking on a wealth of racist baggage it does not need.

    All this, of course, changes none of the facts about Ancient Egypt. Which it appears to have been that is was a hot country occupied primarily by heavily-tanned Caucasoid (That means "White" no matter how much you wish it didn't) people with a strong minority of darker-skinned people who appear to have been treated the same as everybody else, and who all had better things to do than argue that their own local and current bigotries should have the force of natural law upon all humanity and for all time.
    Trust me, "whiteness" does not need me to add racist baggage to it. The term "Caucasian" was coined by an extremely racist German named Christoph Meiners, who wanted to divide humanity into "civilized" and "uncivilized". It has zero scientific basis, unless you're into craniometry:

    Meiners' treatise was widely read in the German intellectual circles of its day, despite muted criticism of its scholarship. Meiners proposed a taxonomy of human beings which involved only two races (Rassen): Caucasians and Mongolians. He considered Caucasians to be more physically attractive than Mongolians, notably because they had paler skin; he claimed Caucasians were also more sensitive and more morally virtuous than Mongolians. Later he would make similar distinctions within the Caucasian group, concluding that the Germans were the most attractive and virtuous people on earth. The name "Caucasian" derived from the Southern Caucasus/Transcaucasia region (or what are now the countries of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia) because he considered the people of this region to be the archetype (cf. taxonomical "neotype") for the grouping.

    Meiners' classification was not grounded on any scientific criteria. It was Blumenbach who gave it scientific credibility and a wider audience, by grounding it in the new quantitative method of craniometry.
    Insofar as it still has a scientific basis, "Caucasian" does not mean "white", which is a purely socially defined term:

    Skin color amongst Caucasoids ranges greatly, from pale, reddish-white, olive, through to dark brown tones.
    Besides its use in anthropology and related fields, the term "Caucasian" has often been used in the United States in a different, social context to describe a group commonly called "White people". "White" also appears as a self-reporting entry in the U.S. Census. ... The Supreme Court in United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind (1923) decided that Asian Indians were ineligible for citizenship because, though deemed "Caucasian" anthropologically, they were not white like European descendants since most laypeople did not consider them to be "white" people.
    So, in short, "Caucasian" is a vestige of a racist classification system that is only useful today to anthropologists and forensic scientists, and many Caucasians do not look white, do not consider themselves white, and are not considered white by law or custom. "White" is entirely a social construct with equally racist roots, with no objective scientific definition, which nevertheless has a huge impact on the lives of hundreds of millions of people in the western world, depending on whether they self-identify as white and/or are considered white by others. Dismissing something that affects so many people just because it has no rational reason to exist seems short-sighted.

    In the case of ancient Egypt, no doubt their racial classifications would be different from ours. That does not change the fact that pale-skinned blondes running around ancient Egypt would have been wildly improbable. It also does not change the fact that the people who today look like the ancient Egyptians suffer discrimination based on their appearance in the western world, which makes casting a pale-skinned blonde instead of one of them in a western cultural product a decision worth discussing.

    I am certainly not going to insist that people from India are white if they don't self-identify that way, based only on some shared skull features. That would be presumptuous in the extreme. And the fact that Swedes and Indians are both technically "Caucasian" would not make a version of Ghandi cast entirely with blond rosy-cheeked Swedes any less bizarre. (Bad enough that they used Ben Kingsley in brownface.)

    =====

    EDIT: All of this is getting pretty deep into the weeds. To boil it down, leaving "whiteness" out of it, I think you're saying "All people classified as Caucasians, from Swedes to Egyptians to South Asian Indians, can be cast interchangeably for one another in movies because 'Caucasian' is a sufficient commonality." I'm saying that Caucasians from different regions look different enough that this can lead to ridiculous results (unless you're deliberately doing race-blind casting), to say nothing of erasing thousands of years of ethnic differences that are very significant to the people who share them. Caucasians from different regions may not look anything alike, which makes it a useless predictor of appearance—and in fact a given Caucasian may look more like someone from an entirely different racial supergroup (see: Iron Eyes Cody, one of the most famous American Indian actors of the 20th century, who happened to actually be Italian).
    Last edited by jere7my; 2016-04-30 at 02:04 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I meant the "outside Japan" definition (i.e. not referring to all animation.) In particular because eastern animation strongholds (Japan, Korea, China) are far less diverse than the U.S., and much of it (not all) tends to feature characters that emulate and can easily be emulated by a caucasian audience.
    In that case I really have very little idea. Although to be fair Japan and Korea do not themselves have diverse populations, so one miht not expect their movies to be ethnically diverse.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    In that case I really have very little idea. Although to be fair Japan and Korea do not themselves have diverse populations, so one miht not expect their movies to be ethnically diverse.
    Mukokuseki is a thing, as far as drawn-media goes.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    I don't mind diversity.
    But I have a few problems with common issues. The top one is of course the judging of other people's culture by American standards. For example, say a Polish or Czech or Finnish writer writes a fantasy epic tale based on their culture and heritage. I would bet my left leg that at least when that series is made into a game or a movie (or even when the book gets translated into English), "activists" online that has no connection to that culture will complain until they're blue because there aren't enough (insert American minority here) people in the character list. Which I find both extremely insulting, insensitive and yes, culturally insensitive.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by jere7my View Post
    (Bad enough that they used Ben Kingsley in brownface.)
    Apparently there are a lot of people out there that don't know that Ben Kingsley is half Indian. He was born Krishna Bhanji and his father was from the same Gujarati ethnic background as Ghandi.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I don't mind diversity.
    But I have a few problems with common issues. The top one is of course the judging of other people's culture by American standards. For example, say a Polish or Czech or Finnish writer writes a fantasy epic tale based on their culture and heritage. I would bet my left leg that at least when that series is made into a game or a movie (or even when the book gets translated into English), "activists" online that has no connection to that culture will complain until they're blue because there aren't enough (insert American minority here) people in the character list. Which I find both extremely insulting, insensitive and yes, culturally insensitive.
    Yeah, I think most people are assuming that we are talking about hollywood films. Presumably films in countries such as India feature far more brown faces than white.

    From an artisitic perspective, one might hope for a film that has a similar ethnic mix to it setting.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    I don't mind diversity.
    But I have a few problems with common issues. The top one is of course the judging of other people's culture by American standards. For example, say a Polish or Czech or Finnish writer writes a fantasy epic tale based on their culture and heritage. I would bet my left leg that at least when that series is made into a game or a movie (or even when the book gets translated into English), "activists" online that has no connection to that culture will complain until they're blue because there aren't enough (insert American minority here) people in the character list. Which I find both extremely insulting, insensitive and yes, culturally insensitive.
    I can't speak for all the other rabblerousing SJWs, but for myself, I'm sticking primarily to Hollywood, which does not tend to greenlight many Polish/Finnish/Czech cultural projects.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingTarget View Post
    Apparently there are a lot of people out there that don't know that Ben Kingsley is half Indian. He was born Krishna Bhanji and his father was from the same Gujarati ethnic background as Ghandi.
    Indeed, I did not. I retract that complaint.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I can't speak for all the other rabblerousing SJWs, but for myself, I'm sticking primarily to Hollywood, which does not tend to greenlight many Polish/Finnish/Czech cultural projects.
    Well there's LOTR...
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Well there's LOTR...
    Written by an English professor of English Lit, influenced by many things, of which Finnish mythology is a present-but-not-primary factor. I don't know if that somehow makes it a primarily Finnish and therefore somehow above reproach product.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingTarget View Post
    Apparently there are a lot of people out there that don't know that Ben Kingsley is half Indian. He was born Krishna Bhanji and his father was from the same Gujarati ethnic background as Ghandi.
    You'd think criticizing the casting for a role with a specific *and* relevant ethnicity requires checking the (not exactly obscure) actor's ethnic background.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    Written by an English professor of English Lit, influenced by many things, of which Finnish mythology is a present-but-not-primary factor. I don't know if that somehow makes it a primarily Finnish and therefore somehow above reproach product.
    Just saying that people are still saying it's racist because the orcs have black skin and there should be more African-American dunedain.
    Again because of American cultural bias.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Just saying that people are still saying it's racist because the orcs have black skin and there should be more African-American dunedain.
    But when you think about it, why couldn't there be? It's set in a fictional land (or at the very least, a fictional-alternate-history of this one), it doesn't have to conform to UK or New Zealand demographics.

    It's like, we've got undead and elves and dragons and talking trees, sure why not - but black people, oooh, that's so outlandish and strange. And sure, Tolkien's original work didn't include any (because 1950s), but that would hardly be the most egregious change they made from the source material for a modern audience.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Just saying that people are still saying it's racist because the orcs have black skin and there should be more African-American dunedain.
    I kinda figured the part where segregated neighborhoods were presented as a good thing, and then where it's okay to commit war crimes against Orcs but not enemy humans because **** 'em, they're just Orcs it's not like they're people...that that was more where LotR does a racism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Again because of American cultural bias.
    American culture bias? ...what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    Written by an English professor of English Lit, influenced by many things, of which Finnish mythology is a present-but-not-primary factor. I don't know if that somehow makes it a primarily Finnish and therefore somehow above reproach product.
    I'm not sure exactly what the criteria is for something to be a hollywood movie, but LotR was filmed in New Zealand, directed by a New Zealander an the premier was in New Zealand. Presumably it was funded by an American film maker though, so does that qualify it as Hollywood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingTarget View Post
    Apparently there are a lot of people out there that don't know that Ben Kingsley is half Indian. He was born Krishna Bhanji and his father was from the same Gujarati ethnic background as Ghandi.
    This is a good reason why the ethnicity of the actor isn't important, even if the ethnicity of the character may be.

    If the actor looks (and sounds) the part sufficiently to be believable as the character he or she is playing, then that is sufficient.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But when you think about it, why couldn't there be? It's set in a fictional land (or at the very least, a fictional-alternate-history of this one), it doesn't have to conform to UK or New Zealand demographics.
    And here is where you lose me completely. I find this simply disrespectful to the setting, the author and the culture that produced both.
    We all know the (often very valid) criticism of whitewashing. How is this any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    I kinda figured the part where segregated neighborhoods were presented as a good thing, and then where it's okay to commit war crimes against Orcs but not enemy humans because **** 'em, they're just Orcs it's not like they're people...that that was more where LotR does a racism.

    American culture bias? ...what?
    Um what?
    Orcs are Evil.
    They aren't evil, they are Evil. They are corrupted souls, to the core. If you can't accept that, Fantasy might not be the correct genre for you. I love character depth in my enemies (although the tragic "evil by cultural upbringing" Drow is OLD by now), but Tolkien's orcs don't have any. His HUMANS on the other hand...

    And yes. The vast majority of complaints regarding things like this IS from Americans who just assumes that the rest of the world should be made up like America, meaning that in 11th century Scotland or 19th century Sweden or 5th century Siberia about 10% (at least) of the characters should be of minorities not really present outside modern day USA. Screw logic, history and culture. Because "racism".
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2016-05-04 at 08:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Um what?
    Orcs are Evil.
    They aren't evil, they are Evil. They are corrupted souls, to the core. If you can't accept that, Fantasy might not be the correct genre for you. I love character depth in my enemies (although the tragic "evil by cultural upbringing" Drow is OLD by now), but Tolkien's orcs don't have any. His HUMANS on the other hand...
    ...the ****? Because I don't like the Always Chaotic Evil trope, I shouldn't be a fantasy fan? That's your argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    And yes. The vast majority of complaints regarding things like this IS from Americans who just assumes that the rest of the world should be made up like America, meaning that in 11th century Scotland or 19th century Sweden or 5th century Siberia about 10% (at least) of the characters should be of minorities not really present outside modern day USA. Screw logic, history and culture. Because "racism".
    That's an unreasonable strawman and we both know it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    ...the ****? Because I don't like the Always Chaotic Evil trope, I shouldn't be a fantasy fan? That's your argument?
    No. His argument was more along the lines that:

    1)In LotR the Always Chaotic Evil is fundamental fact of the Tolkien Orc and thus what would be war crimes against Tolkien Humans are not war crimes against Tolkien Orcs as per the facts Tolkien established in his world.
    2)If your distaste for a trope were to cause you to ignore it when critiquing a story even if it was a fundamental part of what you are critiquing, then perhaps fantasy(where sometimes there are fundamental facts the author included that ought not be ignored off hand) would perhaps not be the genre for you.

    He made no claim about your personal preferences with regards to tropes having any impact on if you should or should not be a fantasy fan, merely that if you were someone that places your preferences above the facts the author established then a genre that utilizes the authors ability to establish facts might be ill suited to you.

    I expect I am misrepresenting the argument somewhere since I do not see it as being watertight. But perhaps this rephrasing of it might help correct the worse rephrasing you initially saw it as.


    Sidenote: While I see good points on the "have the actors/actresses be visibly similar to the ethnicity of their characters" position, I am on the "I don't care what ethnicity the actors/actresses are as long as their employers also don't care" side.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2016-05-05 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    There's also the whole master race business with the Dunedain, getting less super as they mingled with the lesser races of men. Probably something you don't want to make much of a point of in a modern retelling even if it's all objectively true in the original. Unless you're making a historical documentary about the source material, altering it for the current audience isn't exactly wrong even if not necessarily good.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingTarget View Post
    Apparently there are a lot of people out there that don't know that Ben Kingsley is half Indian. He was born Krishna Bhanji and his father was from the same Gujarati ethnic background as Ghandi.
    I'm aware, but I still have an issue with the fact that he keeps getting cast as all these random "totes not white" characters regardless of their ethnicities, e.g. his role as a Maori in Ender's Game - I'm a fan of Kingsley, but was it really necessary to cast him, a half-Indian, as a Maori? It's not as though there's a shortage of great Maori actors, though there is a shortage of international roles for them. Or alternatively, if they really wanted him in the role as a pseudo-mystical exotic type, why not just make him Indian?


    Speaking of Maoris except not, can I just give a shout-out to Dead Island for diversity? I don't think I can think of a single other piece of any media with an Australian Aboriginal woman as the lead character that wasn't specifically about how crap it is being an Aboriginal woman (spoiler: it's pretty crap - see The Rabbit-Proof Fence for more (depressing) information). I was pretty excited to see that, even though it's probably not really my sort of game, and the rest are diverse too - an Asian woman, a white man, a black man, and... is it a Hispanic man? Dunno, haven't played it.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I'm aware, but I still have an issue with the fact that he keeps getting cast as all these random "totes not white" characters regardless of their ethnicities, e.g. his role as a Maori in Ender's Game - I'm a fan of Kingsley, but was it really necessary to cast him, a half-Indian, as a Maori? It's not as though there's a shortage of great Maori actors, though there is a shortage of international roles for them. Or alternatively, if they really wanted him in the role as a pseudo-mystical exotic type, why not just make him Indian?
    Oh, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I was just bringing up the specific case of his role in Gandhi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    No. His argument was more along the lines that:

    1)In LotR the Always Chaotic Evil is fundamental fact of the Tolkien Orc and thus what would be war crimes against Tolkien Humans are not war crimes against Tolkien Orcs as per the facts Tolkien established in his world.
    2)If your distaste for a trope were to cause you to ignore it when critiquing a story even if it was a fundamental part of what you are critiquing, then perhaps fantasy(where sometimes there are fundamental facts the author included that ought not be ignored off hand) would perhaps not be the genre for you.

    He made no claim about your personal preferences with regards to tropes having any impact on if you should or should not be a fantasy fan, merely that if you were someone that places your preferences above the facts the author established then a genre that utilizes the authors ability to establish facts might be ill suited to you.

    I expect I am misrepresenting the argument somewhere since I do not see it as being watertight. But perhaps this rephrasing of it might help correct the worse rephrasing you initially saw it as.
    Well basically the only rephrasing should be "Then LOTR isn't for you". There is tons of fantasy that is dark grey vs light grey or something, but LOTR isn't.*

    As for my strawman... How so? I brought the topic about the imposing of American 21th society on other cultures, and continued to argue it. It isn't the main topic but it is related since it leads o the main topic.

    *Also, Chaotic Evil? No. Neutral Evil? Yes.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2016-05-06 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    what would be war crimes against Tolkien Humans are not war crimes against Tolkien Orcs as per the facts Tolkien established in his world.
    This is never explicit though - and in tie-in material, he specifically contradicts that idea:

    After discussing "Orcs were originally bred from captured elves"
    But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.


    Morgoth's Ring, HoMe X, 419
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2016-05-06 at 11:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Tolkien did go back on the issue; in The Hobbit and LOTR Orcs are irredeemable. However he openly regretted this decision and walked back on it, at least in theory in later works.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Well basically the only rephrasing should be "Then LOTR isn't for you". There is tons of fantasy that is dark grey vs light grey or something, but LOTR isn't.*

    *Also, Chaotic Evil? No. Neutral Evil? Yes.
    As always the person that spoke(yourself) is able to best rephrase what they meant. I apologize for how my rephrasing fell short of your meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    As for my strawman... How so? I brought the topic about the imposing of American 21th society on other cultures, and continued to argue it. It isn't the main topic but it is related since it leads o the main topic.
    I am confused. Was this addressed to me? I don't know what you are referring to in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    As always the person that spoke(yourself) is able to best rephrase what they meant. I apologize for how my rephrasing fell short of your meaning.



    I am confused. Was this addressed to me? I don't know what you are referring to in this case.
    No apologies necessary

    And my turn: Sorry, that part was directed to Thinkminty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    No apologies necessary

    And my turn: Sorry, that part was directed to Thinkminty.
    No apologies necessary

    I greatly appreciate your fleshing out of the other solid position.

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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Well basically the only rephrasing should be "Then LOTR isn't for you". There is tons of fantasy that is dark grey vs light grey or something, but LOTR isn't.*
    It's not that I can't enjoy morally binary conflict, I just don't like the idea that an entire race of sapients is just irredeemable scum. It reeks of the kind of editorial grossness Norman Spinrad deconstructs in The Iron Dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    As for my strawman... How so? I brought the topic about the imposing of American 21th society on other cultures, and continued to argue it. It isn't the main topic but it is related since it leads o the main topic.
    I form my own opinions, and those opinions shape my perceptions, including in regards to my perceptions of fiction I take in. How you make the leap from "thinks for himself" to some kind of American cultural imperialism is rather inflammatory both towards myself and the country I'm from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    *Also, Chaotic Evil? No. Neutral Evil? Yes.
    Don't play dumb with me, you know this is what I was talking about.
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    Default Re: Which Franchise has the most Diversity?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkMinty View Post
    Don't play dumb with me, you know this is what I was talking about.
    And?

    Tolkien's Elves are not Chaotic Evil, they are Neutral Evil.
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