Puzzle and Dragons in the Playground XVI: Space Jammers

[obryn]

Welcome to the Playground's fifteenth sixteenth iteration of our thread for the popular mobile app game, Puzzle & Dragons!
(Previous thread is here.)

Here we gather to discuss, praise, complain about, and generally just natter on for this fun and addictive app game.

The first step is to point all new players to one of the beginners' guides.

• The Beginner's Guide on the padWiki is one; obryn operates there, so give him a heads up if you're finding errors! It can lag behind the news at times, but it's nice, friendly, honest, and clear.
• There is also the very comprehensive Padherder New Player Guide], which is usually more current.

We also have a linked guide to using row enhancement awoken skills!

What is Puzzle & Dragons?

A Free-to-Play match-three game with surprising depth! The puzzle occupies the lower half of the screen, and the combinations you form power your team on the upper half of the screen in battle. Part pokemon, part bejeweled, part M:tG, all crack, this game is easy to learn, difficult to master and very well put together. Unlike many games of this kind, it defies genre by going for both depth and complexity while maintaining ease of pick up.

What, seriously?

Yup! While at it's surface, the game is basically any other puzzle game ever, the math behind damage output, the dungeon design, the team composition component and metagame, and the uniquely free-wheeling capacity of the puzzle make Puzzle and Dragons a stand-out despite it's terrible app graphic. It has surprisingly deep and fulfilling long-term play (at the moment, I've been playing for over 600 days), and new content comes out regularly.

So what do I need to know to get started?

• First, the game itself! PAD, P&D or puzzle and dragons should all be sufficient searches to download it. It operates on Android and iOS devices, with mixed results on running it elsewhere.
• Second, the beginner's guides will help a lot. You start out with one fast freebie pull on the game's real lure, the Rare Egg Machine, and a good pull here can save you a lot of frustration and also make the game much more fun. It's suggested that after you run the game a bit and get comfortable playing it, you "reroll" by uninstalling and reinstalling the application. Then you run through the tutorial again and do the free pull again, repeating until you snag a keeper. This is not half as bad as it sounds; it's pretty brainless, and goes by pretty quickly. If you can time your re-rolling to line up with a biweekly Godfest, you can save yourself even more frustration!
• Third, friends. Good friends with compatible Leader skills are critical. When you enter a dungeon, you can bring a friend's leader with you as a member of your team; their leader skill operates alongside your own. We have a lot of great, experienced players here, with a lot of solid leaders. We can carry you when your own leader can't. Managing your leader and picking the right friend's leader is a critical part of the metagame. The GitP list is at the bottom of this thread; feel free to send any of us requests. If you have something like "@GitP" in your username, we'll know you're from this forum, and will accept your friend requests more readily!
• Fourth, be stingy with stones! Magic stones are the in-app-purchase (IAP) resource, and while you get them for free pretty quickly early on, and even more on a regular basis, you'll regret being too free with their use early on. The four rules of magic stones are (1) Never pull the gold dragon Rare Egg Machine outside of a godfest; (2) You should have two monster boxes for every rank you have, and spending stones to Increase Capacity is almost never a bad idea; (3) It's generally not worth a stone to continue in a dungeon or refill your stamina until you have at least 100 stamina, and (4) No, really, don't pull the REM outside of a godfest, seriously.
• Fifth, as a corollary to the above, there is a resource called Monster Points, of which the only way to obtain reasonable amounts is by selling monsters you rolled from the REM, i.e. stones. One of the potential ways to spend it is on evolution materials. This is generally about the least efficient use of your stones possible. If there's a rare material you can't currently obtain, you'll be much better off in the long run spending your resources on leveling your teams until you can, and all rare evolution materials can also be obtained randomly from the PAL machine during certain events (the news box beneath the machines will say when the Rare Evo Materials event is active).

As a closing note, Puzzle & Dragons is an immensely popular game, and there are a ton of fan-run sites for information. Most of them stay fairly up-to-date, so just go with what you prefer.

• The PAD Wiki is volunteer-run, and can get out-of-date, but I think it has the friendliest format for finding information. It also has a ton of great guides and advice.
• PuzzleDragonX is generally the best-updated site out there, with the most current news and most complete data. It's the community's go-to resource for data, but doesn't have much in the way of advice.
• PADHerder is a tool to track and manage your monster box, with some neat automated ways to update. It also has some good information pages.
• PADGuide (Android / iPhone) is an awesome app which keeps very current with all data and can even alert you to Urgent! dungeons. (HIGHLY recommended; I can't live without it.)
• The Puzzle and Dragons Forum is dedicated to PAD and has some pretty good (and some very old) guides.
• The PAD Global Facebook group is for talking about PAD stuff on ... well, Facebook. It's a solid way to get more compatible friends, too, but it's not always nice to newbies.

Jasmine has provided us with a lovely friend list off-site. You can submit your own info here, using a monster's ID (preferred) or full name.

Our old friend list (still mostly up to date) can be found below. If you want to be updated/added, post your leads (up to two each) that you use for descends and for farming. A PadHerder can be included as well.

Spoiler: Puzzle and Dragons GitP Friend List!

Show

User	In-Game ID	Descended! Leads	Farming Leads
Obryn	dwarfSA@PG 357,549,260
Diego Havoc	Diego@GitP 376,879,256
Starwulf	Starwulf 319,762,282
SiuiS	SiuiS@GitP 307,676,270
Jasmine	Jasmine 301,790,222
Academia	Aca@GitP 350,076,269
Aramul	Aram@GitP 314,795,270
Leviticus	Levi@GitP 367,459,299
Erloas	ErloasGitP 325,699,229 LoraesGitP 395,991,230
Kauai	Kauai@gitp 364,995,253
Tyckspoon	Tyck@GitP 305,397,237
Blade7	Blade@GitP 387,372,268
Klaatu B. Nikto	KBN@GitP 336,576,284
137ben	Snes4@GitP 336,616,397
Otravyat	Otra@GitP 329,820,344
Fax Celestis	Fax@GitP 372,092,294
Soepvork	Soepv@GitP 333,581,245
Sallera	Kiminosei 373,137,360 Sallera 307,636,315
Quietus	Quietus 392,538,393
Baka Nikujaga	Baka 346,216,306
Flare'90	Flare@Gitp 325,249,325
Anarion	Anar@gitp 365,764,335
firedaemon33	Firedaemon 380,663,332
Meta	iNuzzle@/r 388,412,339
Fleeing Coward	FC@GitP 379,570,319

Credits to everyone who's ever contributed to the OP.

[obryn]

In honor of the thread title, does anyone really think the Jammer meta is going to take the game by storm? I mean, between Fenrir, Jormundagandr, and these Constellation 2 gods...

It just seems kind of niche and useless, you know? The jammers themselves are dealing no damage apart from upping the combo count and activating the leader skill. They aren't even doing anything productive, like hearts are.

e: Also, 2 stones has gotten my new second DKali to Skill 5 so far, so I'm feeling pretty good about that.

[Jurai]

It could mean that Jammers are also going to become more common in dungeons, too.

[Fax Celestis]

Not jammers specifically, but non-damaging orb-types as activation requirements is, in my bet, going to become more common. It started with heart activations (AParvati, ALakshmi, Typhon, Gadius), then poison (Hel), now jammers (Fenrir, Jormungandr).

I'm waiting for the leader skill that powers based off of locked orbs.

[Jurai]

I could see that.

[Anarion]

I don't know if the Jammer thing will catch on, but I think we're seeing the devs experimenting with these other orb types. If it ends up being good, it will be through some combination of very low cd skills that can generate the necessary orbs and a really high multiplier that, with the right setup, can be hit consistently.

Though, the other thing that might make the jammer setup good is actually if it acts as some kind of optional supplement. One of the things I'm seeing now is that getting tons of damage, hp, or healing doesn't really cut it anymore (Vishnu!!!! *shakes fist*). A lot of the enemies being released now are making use of things like resolve, skills that they use only at certain life percentages, and various types of defenses such as the absorbs and combo filters. So, a powerful and flexible team isn't just about having the most raw stats, but also having precision in terms of when and how much damage it can deal, and when and how it can heal or protect itself.

All that being to say, if there ends up being a setup where you can get, say a 20x multiplier without jammers and an 80x multiplier with jammers, that might actually be really strong and could overtake some other top teams.

[Otravyat]

In honor of the thread title, does anyone really think the Jammer meta is going to take the game by storm? I mean, between Fenrir, Jormundagandr, and these Constellation 2 gods...

It just seems kind of niche and useless, you know? The jammers themselves are dealing no damage apart from upping the combo count and activating the leader skill. They aren't even doing anything productive, like hearts are.

I pretty much agree with that analysis, and I'll also just say that there arent enough monsters and there is a very low percentage change of pulling multiple. Putting a few REM monsters that use jammers into the mix doesn't do much with the hundreds of total options. When you need to pull multiple of them, only the whales will have the ability to put the teams together regardless.

I don't know if the Jammer thing will catch on, but I think we're seeing the devs experimenting with these other orb types. If it ends up being good, it will be through some combination of very low cd skills that can generate the necessary orbs and a really high multiplier that, with the right setup, can be hit consistently.

Though, the other thing that might make the jammer setup good is actually if it acts as some kind of optional supplement. One of the things I'm seeing now is that getting tons of damage, hp, or healing doesn't really cut it anymore (Vishnu!!!! *shakes fist*). A lot of the enemies being released now are making use of things like resolve, skills that they use only at certain life percentages, and various types of defenses such as the absorbs and combo filters. So, a powerful and flexible team isn't just about having the most raw stats, but also having precision in terms of when and how much damage it can deal, and when and how it can heal or protect itself.

All that being to say, if there ends up being a setup where you can get, say a 20x multiplier without jammers and an 80x multiplier with jammers, that might actually be really strong and could overtake some other top teams.

So would that be an unconditional setup with supplemental boost? Like maybe 4x attack to "x type" and an additional 1.5x attack for each jammer combo up to 2.25x attack at two combos? That gives x16 without jammers and x36 or x81 with jammers. Even then I don't think it would catch on without a rcv or hp boost, because the team would be 100% active reliant and those actives HAVE to be orb changers for offensive purposes. That means they need other survivability measures, and giving those measures via leader skill seems too strong so you would have to cut the damage.

[Sallera]

Yep, that's basically the problem the new Fenrir(//Jormungandr/Gainaut) team has. It does, in fact, have quite nicely controllable scaling with a very high ceiling, but all it can do is damage. No survivability measures to speak of.

[Otravyat]

Yep, that's basically the problem the new Fenrir(//Jormungandr/Gainaut) team has. It does, in fact, have quite nicely controllable scaling with a very high ceiling, but all it can do is damage. No survivability measures to speak of.

Even then I don't think that the damage is as useful as having the ability to do SOME damage without jammers. If you always (okay, almost always) have to use an active to do more than 1x attack, you aren't really viable in today's game.

[obryn]

I'm dancing in my chair because DKali #2 is already max skilled at a cost of 0 more stones. I thought this'd be an all-day grind!

She's now in Okuninushi's place on my RaDra team. But I'm keeping Oku in mind as an occasional sub... Say, when facing Kagu...

[Sallera]

Even then I don't think that the damage is as useful as having the ability to do SOME damage without jammers. If you always (okay, almost always) have to use an active to do more than 1x attack, you aren't really viable in today's game.

Well, new Fenrir technically can get x4 without jammers, but I don't disagree that it's a silly gimmick team.

[Otravyat]

Well, new Fenrir technically can get x4 without jammers, but I don't disagree that it's a silly gimmick team.

Oh I forgot about the JP buff, was just looking at pdx.

[Anarion]

Well, new Fenrir technically can get x4 without jammers, but I don't disagree that it's a silly gimmick team.

The point now is that there isn't enough stuff to support it. Just stacking Fenrirs (or Jormungandr) isn't offering enough. But it might be down the road. What if they made something like a 1.5/2/1.5 leader (so your team would end up at 2.25/4/2.25) that had a jammer boost? Say 4x on jammers, making the team into a 2.25/64/2.25 team if you had the appropriate jammers? That might either provide enough defense to allow for all offensive subs or give enough baseline to allow for one or two defensive subs to slip in there.

[Jurai]

I'd like to see a Sumire-like for Jammers. 'Eliminate a Cross of Jammers for 50% damage reduction' or something of that nature.

[Anarion]

I'd like to see a Sumire-like for Jammers. 'Eliminate a Cross of Jammers for 50% damage reduction' or something of that nature.

Why? That's so incredibly specific as to be effectively useless. If it's the result of an active skill on the hypothetical monster, it's considerably worse than most of the existing damage reduction skills and would, at best, be an enabler for our hypothetical jammer team.

[Jurai]

Why? That's so incredibly specific as to be effectively useless. If it's the result of an active skill on the hypothetical monster, it's considerably worse than most of the existing damage reduction skills and would, at best, be an enabler for our hypothetical jammer team.

No, the second half of Sumire's lead skill is 'Cross of Heart Orbs for Damage Reduction, and therefore this would also be the second half of a theoretical lead skill.

[Otravyat]

No, the second half of Sumire's lead skill is 'Cross of Heart Orbs for Damage Reduction, and therefore this would also be the second half of a theoretical lead skill.

Part of the benefit from that is that it also allows healing because hearts are actually useful on top of the damage reduction.

[Anarion]

No, the second half of Sumire's lead skill is 'Cross of Heart Orbs for Damage Reduction, and therefore this would also be the second half of a theoretical lead skill.

Sorry, I was vague there. Cross of jammers or cross of hearts would be in the lead skill, but there's no way for a team to make a cross of jammers right now. If the monster not only had a leader skill with reduction but also an active skill that enabled the cross of jammers, it would still be considerably worse than any of the existing damage reduction abilities.

Edit: What might work is if it lasted multiple turns. So a lead skill that was "cross of jammers gives you 50% damage reduction for the next 5 turns" and the active makes enough jammers to make a cross would be interesting.

[Jurai]

Sorry, I was vague there. Cross of jammers or cross of hearts would be in the lead skill, but there's no way for a team to make a cross of jammers right now. If the monster not only had a leader skill with reduction but also an active skill that enabled the cross of jammers, it would still be considerably worse than any of the existing damage reduction abilities.

Edit: What might work is if it lasted multiple turns. So a lead skill that was "cross of jammers gives you 50% damage reduction for the next 5 turns" and the active makes enough jammers to make a cross would be interesting.

I could see 5 for an Ult or an Awoken Ult, maybe 2 or 3 otherwise. Maybe 35% damage reduction and heal 15% of max HP with a cross of jammers?

[Otravyat]

Sorry, I was vague there. Cross of jammers or cross of hearts would be in the lead skill, but there's no way for a team to make a cross of jammers right now. If the monster not only had a leader skill with reduction but also an active skill that enabled the cross of jammers, it would still be considerably worse than any of the existing damage reduction abilities.

Edit: What might work is if it lasted multiple turns. So a lead skill that was "cross of jammers gives you 50% damage reduction for the next 5 turns" and the active makes enough jammers to make a cross would be interesting.

That would just become 100% uptime, as long as you had 2 monsters that could make jammers. Thats super strong. 2 maybe 3 turns at the most I think. Definitely an interesting idea though.

[Jurai]

Idea: A lead skill that looks for the PRESENCE of Jammers on the board. Say 'If three or more Jammers are on the board, gain x2 ATK/RCV.'

[Quietus]

Idea: A lead skill that looks for the PRESENCE of Jammers on the board. Say 'If three or more Jammers are on the board, gain x2 ATK/RCV.'

I do like that idea. Possibly a 1.5x boost for jammers on the board, and a further scaling boost based on how many jammers you eliminate? So you could, say, burn Fenrir for the 1.5x attack for having them on the board, and match the three he makes for 1.5x more, on top of a very basic unconditional boost. 2x to dark types, 1.5x for jammers on the board, and 1.5x for matching 3 jammers would be a 4.5x leader skill, but 3x unconditional for simply having a few jammers on the board cluttering you up. Maybe buff it to be a bit stronger, but that's still not a bad start.

The one thing I like most about jammer meta? This is a whole lot of interesting conversation coming out of it. If nothing else, it's making us think about the game in different ways.

[Jurai]

My idea is more, the leader skill rewards you for leaving Jammers on the board, by increasing the multiplier it offers based on the number of Jammers present.

[Anarion]

That would just become 100% uptime, as long as you had 2 monsters that could make jammers. Thats super strong. 2 maybe 3 turns at the most I think. Definitely an interesting idea though.

Awoken Chinese give 100% uptime but limited colors. Making it require jammers and maybe causes issues against enemies that require extra time seems fair to me.

[Quietus]

My idea is more, the leader skill rewards you for leaving Jammers on the board, by increasing the multiplier it offers based on the number of Jammers present.

I'd love to see two different cards, along both lines. One that requires lots of jammers on the board, which would really screw up your damage potential by limiting everything else you can have. And one that gives you a boost for having simply *any* jammers on the board, but also rewards you for "spending" that resource to burst.

[Otravyat]

Awoken Chinese give 100% uptime but limited colors. Making it require jammers and maybe causes issues against enemies that require extra time seems fair to me.

75% on everything is very different from a smaller reduction against only three colors. I guess it depends on how they combine all of this, we've tossed around a lot of ideas re. offense, defense, etc. I think that it will be interesting to see if Fenrir catches on at all, plus just see what else they add.

I'd love to see two different cards, along both lines. One that requires lots of jammers on the board, which would really screw up your damage potential by limiting everything else you can have. And one that gives you a boost for having simply *any* jammers on the board, but also rewards you for "spending" that resource to burst.

I like that idea. The second one, that is. The idea of having a reward but needing to use it up for max burst is really intriguing in terms of strategy. What about if you made the difference offensive and defensive. Defensive boost if on the field offensive if clearing. Or to mix it up make it offensive if on the field and defensive if clearing.

[Quietus]

75% on everything is very different from a smaller reduction against only three colors. I guess it depends on how they combine all of this, we've tossed around a lot of ideas re. offense, defense, etc. I think that it will be interesting to see if Fenrir catches on at all, plus just see what else they add.



I like that idea. The second one, that is. The idea of having a reward but needing to use it up for max burst is really intriguing in terms of strategy. What about if you made the difference offensive and defensive. Defensive boost if on the field offensive if clearing. Or to mix it up make it offensive if on the field and defensive if clearing.

That would be fascinating, too. Say 25% damage reduction for 5+ jammers on the board, so matched leaders gives you 43.75% damage reduction. Roughly the same survivability increase as A.Lucifer. Then give a 3x unconditional attack, with a 2x boost when eliminating 5+ connected jammers - gets you up to 36x damage on a "burst", but also potentially drops your survivability when you do so. And top end teams could use multiple Fenrir, and cycle jammers to provide both defense and offense boosts consistently.

::Edit:: With a little time to think about it, a potential for 25% DR and 6x damage on a single lead is pretty much a top tier potential leader. Perhaps it would be better to keep the unconditional at 2.5x attack, with 1.5-2x for eliminating 5+ jammers, so a 6.25x unconditional leaderwho can, with good board manipulation, maintain that damage reduction while spiking 14-25x damage. Still very, very strong - you could even go with 1.5x for one jammer match and 2x for 2, allowing further precision scaling and risk vs reward - but not immediately top tier. I think that would be a very interesting lead, and Fenrir plus those other "Kali/DKali board + jammers" cards would make an amazing sub for something like this.

[obryn]

Oh gosh.

Orochi is an I Win button against Lakshmi.

[Quietus]

Oh gosh.

Orochi is an I Win button against Lakshmi.

What, in challenge 9? I guess, but only if you stall 15 turns to have him up...

[Fax Celestis]

What, in challenge 9? I guess, but only if you stall 15 turns to have him up...

Speaking of C9, I did it this morning.