Vaarsuvius' gender; REVIVED!!!

[littlebum2002]

We don't need to discuss whether it is offensive or not, we already know it is offensive, because we have multiple people telling us they found it offensive. So the only possible positions you have are

"I didn't realize it was offensive"

or

"I realized it was offensive and said it anyway"



I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

[Keltest]

We don't need to discuss whether it is offensive or not, we already know it is offensive, because we have multiple people telling us they found it offensive. So the only possible positions you have are

"I didn't realize it was offensive"

or

"I realized it was offensive and said it anyway"



I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

As has been highlighted above, something does not need to be innately offensive in order for people to take offense to it, and while they likely have perfectly legitimate reasons to feel uncomfortable, it isn't unreasonable to expect them to avoid an otherwise inoffensive conversation that they personally do not like, rather than for everyone else to shut down the conversation.

For my part, I can see how doing it to a real person, to their face, could and would be seen as offensive. That is not what is happening here.

[hroþila]

I don't know if it's offensive. What I do know is that, when dealing with marginalized groups I know very little about, it's usually a good idea to listen to what they have to say, because chances are they see things from a completely different and infinitely more relevant point of view. Circling the wagons and refusing to empathize and to acknowledge how skewed your own personal observations are is not a good idea.

Also, may I point out that a major pet peeve of mine is how people whose point of view is perfectly aligned with the standard one in society at large claim their freedom of speech is being suppressed in debates like this one just because other folks are trying to convince them not to say something, without having the capability (nor the will, usually) to suppress anything whatsoever?

[Liquor Box]

We don't need to discuss whether it is offensive or not, we already know it is offensive, because we have multiple people telling us they found it offensive. So the only possible positions you have are

"I didn't realize it was offensive"

or

"I realized it was offensive and said it anyway"



I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

There is a third possible position (which seems to be the one taken by most people in this thread) - that discussing V's gender is not offensive despite some people thinking that it is.

I can only assume you didn't read the posts where this has been comprehensively addressed, so I will summarise it out again.

That someone found it offensive doesn't mean something is offensive.

David's comments about weapons is IMO, the best example so far. Some people are genuinely offended by discussions about weapons - given that many people know someone (or have themselves) been victim to violence using weapons. But most of us (including you?????) would not refrain from discussing the weapons used in the comic, or weapons used in the gaming system (playing games glorifying the use of weapons probably offends even more people) simply because you "now realize that was offensive" to some people.

My own (inferior) example was bigots being offended by things because of their bigotry.

The answer to both examples(which you have already conceded in the case of the bigots example) , and to the question of gender speculation is that it is not offensive to make a comment merely because some person or people are or might be offended by it. Something more is required before something becomes offensive such that it should be prohibited from conversation.

As noted, it is clear that you agree with this reasoning in some contexts (the bigot context, and I expect the weapons context). But you have given no reasons why you consider the gender speculation context to be different. That being the case, I don't think you are in a position to make judgement on the many intelligent people (which seems to be the majority in this thread) who have a different perspective than your own.

Edit:

I think DavidBV in post 135 of this thread actually set this out very well, so if my answer above is not framed clearly enough that my message comes across, I recommend reading post 135 - at least part of which is written from personal experience.

[littlebum2002]

There is a third possible position (which seems to be the one taken by most people in this thread) - that discussing V's gender is not offensive despite some people thinking that it is.

I can only assume you didn't read the posts where this has been comprehensively addressed, so I will summarise it out again.

That someone found it offensive doesn't mean something is offensive.

Again, whether something is offensive or not is 100% subjective. If someone finds it offensive, then it is offensive.

"I'm offended by that"

-"No you're not"


And this is INFINITELY more true when you are not part of the group who is possibly being offended by what is said. I mean you're basically saying that you have more of a decision in what a genderqueer person finds offensive than a genderqueer person does.

What a genderqueer person believes to be offensive to genderqueer people is a million times more important than what a non-genderqueer person believes to be offensive to genderqueer people.

[anjxed]

So what if a genderqueer person says he isnt offended and another says he is. Is the topic offensive or not?
Not every genderqueer person feels the same about things

[DavidBV]

If someone finds it offensive, then it is offensive.

... to someone.

While there are remarks that are intrinsecally offensive, no matter how you look at them.

For you it is the same thing, I get it. For many others, it isn't. I don't think this discussion will get much further than that.

EDIT: for me, at least, it is enough. I don't think this discussion is in-topic so I'll stay out of it.

[littlebum2002]

... to someone.

While there are remarks that are intrinsecally offensive, no matter how you look at them.

For you it is the same thing, I get it. For many others, it isn't. I don't think this discussion will get much further than that.

Every remark is offensive to some people and inoffensive to others. Regardless of how "intrinsically offensive" you find something, SOMEONE will not be offended by it. So if you define "offensive" as "everyone is offended by it", then nothing is offensive.

[Draconi Redfir]

So what if i were to say Gender politics in general offended me. Would you stop discussing those in that case?

i mean, i take it upon myself to actively avoid things that confuse, offend, or upset me, so i /could/ just hypotetically not go into threads designed spesifically for discussing gender politics. But if even one person is offended by it then everyone must stop discussing it right?

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Ladies and Gentlemen, stick to discussing evidence for or against Vaarsuvius' gender, not modern gender politics. I will be reviewing when I get a chance to see if anyone has strayed into Inappropriate Topics.

[Zmeoaice]

So does V have a hot dog or a taco? Well Let's see:

1. V's eyes are lower than the Average Male but higher than the average female- however I think they're closer to the male's than the females.
2. When V was restored from being a lizard, their body was flat rather than curved. However a team of elves was seen before (at the Azure City Resistance) and they all had flat chests. Though we don't know their gender either.
3. V wanting a room with Haley is not indicative of anything as V and Haley were close friends prior to the start of the comic.

[Kastor]

Y'all are running in circles pecking at each other and getting nowhere. The answer's obvious.

Vaarsuvius is nonbinary, probably agender. Who needs gender when you're mastering the arcane?
They decided to rise above, and so they have. Case closed.

[Draconi Redfir]

That's possible and more then likely true. At this point the thread might need to be changed to "Vaarsuvius' sex guessing", as that's a completely different thing alltogether, you can't just decide what your genetics say about you. Assuming Genetics exist in oots.

[KorvinStarmast]

The answer's obvious.

Vaarsuvius is nonbinary, probably agender. Who needs gender when you're mastering the arcane? They decided to rise above, and so they have. Case closed.

Not sure the answer is obvious in that sense.
V's spouse and kids figure into this. See the story arc where V has to head home to save spouse and kids from angry black dragon. Some relationship issues follow that semi heroic event, with serious damage to a marriage. (Note that one of the fiends said "he said 'shapechange' when referring to V but that isn't conclusive). Dragon destroyed, marriage is collateral damage.

Are you suggesting that elves have no gender and thus use test tubes (or something like that, or some kind of elf magic) to make little elves?

[Draconi Redfir]

to be fair, those kids were addopted anyways.

[KorvinStarmast]

to be fair, those kids were addopted anyways.

I guess I missed that strip/that point, or just forgot it.

[Kish]

Are you suggesting that elves have no gender and thus use test tubes (or something like that, or some kind of elf magic) to make little elves?

There are nonbinary/agender people in the real world (I hope I can point out without it being "modern gender politics"). Some are married; some have children. I don't think Kastor is implying anything about Vaarsuvius being an elf.

[Draconi Redfir]

it was a simple mixup of Sex and Gender. i blame pokemon.

Sex is the raw genetic structure that composes your body, in mammals like us, if you have Y chromosome, you are sexually a male, no ifs, ands, or buts. if you don't, you are sexually female. Gender is more like a software program, it's more fluid, more prone to change, and can sometimes be put in the wrong hardware.

Pokemon made the mistake of labelling pokemon Sex as pokemon Gender because they didn't want to include the word "sex" in their game.

So in this instance, we're not saying this particular elf has no sex, but just doesn't conform to either gender. Barring severe genetic defects, V is more then likely fully capable of procreating normally as whatever sex they physically are.

Apologies, i just felt like i had to clear that up to prevent confusion.

[Astrella]

You're not really right on that though? Sex is both genotype and phenotype (chromosomes, body features, genitals, hormone levels, etc...) and there are a lot of not very clear cases in that. (Intersex people for one, HRT and bottom surgery and such on the other.)

[Shed Some Skin]

Hi all. Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Just read through the thread and wanted to chip in with something that occurred to me. It's probably been mentioned in a prior thread on the subject so apologies if this is not exactly new information or speculation.

So from what we know for sure so far, V has a thus far undefined (to the audience, not necessarily to the character) gender, was married to someone of equally indeterminate gender, with two adopted kids. We also know that some elves (Lirian for sure, possibly also Z, but being a Drow I'm unsure if he really fits my speculation here) do openly define as a definite gender. I appreciate some posters in this thread are fine with assuming that any given character is not necessarily cis unless it's absolutely definitively stated, and that's not something I'm trying to argue with if you choose that as your personal canon.

But I digress. My speculation is somewhat related to another example of a humanoid species from humorous fantasy fiction: Discworld Dwarves. I'd imagine there's more than a few forumgoers in here familiar with Pratchett, but for those who aren't, I'll explain. All Dwarves on the Disc are outwardly male. They all have similar builds, roles in society aren't based around gender, and everyone has a beard and similar fashion sense. Dwarves do have binary biological sexes, and make new Dwarves the standard way, but outwardly, they all define as male. Or slightly more accurately, they all define first and foremost as Dwarves, and culturally the outward aspects of Dwarfishness happen to align with markers of masculinity in humans. Within relationships, it's assumed that everyone just marries the person they marry and then they figure out the rest of it in private.

As it turns out in later novels, there's a growing subculture of female Dwarves that actually want to identify as female. This leads to a bunch of stuff where the social politics of the whole thing fall somewhere between women's suffrage and LGBT rights (probably closer to the latter, since female Dwarves weren't so much discriminated against as culturally nonexistent). Now, here's where I'm trying to draw parallels with what we've seen of Elves in OotS...

Assume Elves have binary biological sex, but no real cultural gender. I've seen a few people mention that in this thread. That's not a crazy idea. So how do we explain Lirian? Well, what if Elves that identify as a specific gender are the Elf equivalent of female Discworld Dwarves? Or even human LGBT people? Some of them simply were born identifying a particular way. Or perhaps they fall in love with someone from a species that does, and then accept the markers of their biological sex to make their partner happy and it doesn't really bother them either way since they don't have any real cultural hangups about it. "oh, you humans are into these things? Aren't they just lumps of fat? I've always found them rather inconvenient, myself. But of course, I'll wear that low cut top if it amuses you".

Discworld Dwarves aren't a perfect analogy here, since there's zero evidence for there being any kind of animosity towards gender-identifying Elves even if we choose to accept a fundamentally genderless Elf culture in general. But I like the idea that Elves are something a little bit culturally distinct from humans in a way other than just having pointy ears, and it would go a long way towards explaining V's attitudes. S/he doesn't really care or particularly consider it, beyond the fact that not knowing annoys Belkar, and it also explains Lirian's apparent female identification in a way that I would hope would please more people than us having to accept a single answer for both.

z, and the cultural norms of Drow, I will leave up to others to decide :)

[Draconi Redfir]

You're not really right on that though? Sex is both genotype and phenotype (chromosomes, body features, genitals, hormone levels, etc...) and there are a lot of not very clear cases in that. (Intersex people for one, HRT and bottom surgery and such on the other.)

Changes made after you are born do not affect your genes, surgeries and hormones alter your appearance, but not your genes.

And since in my specific post i was referring to genetic sex, as far as I’m aware Genetics are the only thing that apply to genetic Sex, which does not change due to post-birth changes.

[DavidBV]

Hi all. Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Just read through the thread and wanted to chip in with something that occurred to me. It's probably been mentioned in a prior thread on the subject so apologies if this is not exactly new information or speculation.

So from what we know for sure so far, V has a thus far undefined (to the audience, not necessarily to the character) gender, was married to someone of equally indeterminate gender, with two adopted kids. We also know that some elves (Lirian for sure, possibly also Z, but being a Drow I'm unsure if he really fits my speculation here) do openly define as a definite gender. I appreciate some posters in this thread are fine with assuming that any given character is not necessarily cis unless it's absolutely definitively stated, and that's not something I'm trying to argue with if you choose that as your personal canon.

But I digress. My speculation is somewhat related to another example of a humanoid species from humorous fantasy fiction: Discworld Dwarves. I'd imagine there's more than a few forumgoers in here familiar with Pratchett, but for those who aren't, I'll explain. All Dwarves on the Disc are outwardly male. They all have similar builds, roles in society aren't based around gender, and everyone has a beard and similar fashion sense. Dwarves do have binary biological sexes, and make new Dwarves the standard way, but outwardly, they all define as male. Or slightly more accurately, they all define first and foremost as Dwarves, and culturally the outward aspects of Dwarfishness happen to align with markers of masculinity in humans. Within relationships, it's assumed that everyone just marries the person they marry and then they figure out the rest of it in private.

As it turns out in later novels, there's a growing subculture of female Dwarves that actually want to identify as female. This leads to a bunch of stuff where the social politics of the whole thing fall somewhere between women's suffrage and LGBT rights (probably closer to the latter, since female Dwarves weren't so much discriminated against as culturally nonexistent). Now, here's where I'm trying to draw parallels with what we've seen of Elves in OotS...

Assume Elves have binary biological sex, but no real cultural gender. I've seen a few people mention that in this thread. That's not a crazy idea. So how do we explain Lirian? Well, what if Elves that identify as a specific gender are the Elf equivalent of female Discworld Dwarves? Or even human LGBT people? Some of them simply were born identifying a particular way. Or perhaps they fall in love with someone from a species that does, and then accept the markers of their biological sex to make their partner happy and it doesn't really bother them either way since they don't have any real cultural hangups about it. "oh, you humans are into these things? Aren't they just lumps of fat? I've always found them rather inconvenient, myself. But of course, I'll wear that low cut top if it amuses you".

Discworld Dwarves aren't a perfect analogy here, since there's zero evidence for there being any kind of animosity towards gender-identifying Elves even if we choose to accept a fundamentally genderless Elf culture in general. But I like the idea that Elves are something a little bit culturally distinct from humans in a way other than just having pointy ears, and it would go a long way towards explaining V's attitudes. S/he doesn't really care or particularly consider it, beyond the fact that not knowing annoys Belkar, and it also explains Lirian's apparent female identification in a way that I would hope would please more people than us having to accept a single answer for both.

z, and the cultural norms of Drow, I will leave up to others to decide :)

While your theory is interesting, I think this is unlikely to be the answer. I can't remember where I did read it, but I think Rich explained once, long ago, that when he drew the character on the early days, he was kind of surprised at how some of his friends were sure V was male, and others were sure V was female. He also said (unless my memory fails) that what V was, was very clear in his mind. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I can't find it in the quotes thread, but I'm fairly sure I'm not making it up.

So whatever is the answer, it must be... reasonably simple. Male, female, hermaphrodite, asexual, or anything else, but from what I remember of his explanation, if it takes three paragraphs to explain, I don't see him devising it, considering how was the comic back then: a light-hearted and humorous parody of D&D adventuring. I don't think he worked such settings details as elven cultural genders, back then.

[Liquor Box]

While your theory is interesting, I think this is unlikely to be the answer. I can't remember where I did read it, but I think Rich explained once, long ago, that when he drew the character on the early days, he was kind of surprised at how some of his friends were sure V was male, and others were sure V was female. He also said (unless my memory fails) that what V was, was very clear in his mind. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I can't find it in the quotes thread, but I'm fairly sure I'm not making it up.

So whatever is the answer, it must be... reasonably simple. Male, female, hermaphrodite, asexual, or anything else, but from what I remember of his explanation, if it takes three paragraphs to explain, I don't see him devising it, considering how was the comic back then: a light-hearted and humorous parody of D&D adventuring. I don't think he worked such settings details as elven cultural genders, back then.

I'm sure that's right. The Giant said that he had not originally intended V's sex or gender to be ambiguous. It was only when a friend asked him what V's sex was that it occurred to the Giant that it wasn't obvious to most people.

The Giant then decided to obfuscate V's sex/gender to keep people guessing. He did a quick straw poll of the forum he was in at the time and found out that most people thought V was female. In the next strip the Giant had Roy refer to V as "V-man" to counter the prevailing opinion that V was female. He has since presented other obfuscating information to keep it ambiguous.

It has also been established earlier in this thread that the Giant has said that V is genderqueer.

So what we know is this:
- V's gender identity is genderqueer
- The Giant has decided on V's sex (and had from the start), but is deliberately keeping that ambiguous.

The rest is all speculation. And any speculation based on hints from the strip (or at least from about the 10th strip on) is likely to be unreliable because the Giant deliberately put obfuscating information in there.

Edit

[KorvinStarmast]

So what we know is this:
- V's gender identity is genderfluid
- The Giant has decided on V's sex (and had from the start), but is deliberately keeping that ambiguous.

The rest is all speculation. And any speculation based on hints from the strip (or at least from about the 10th strip on) is likely to be unreliable because the Giant deliberately put obfuscating information in there.

Trying to see how this post can offend someone. Not seeing it. So ... good job.

[martianmister]

I always see him as a female.

[littlebum2002]

It seems pretty obvious. V is a very logical person, and not very emotional, therefore V must me male

[martianmister]

It seems pretty obvious. V is a very logical person, and not very emotional, therefore V must me male

You're completely wrong. It's common knowledge that females uses their heads while males uses their muscles.

[Vinyadan]

Trying to see how this post can offend someone. Not seeing it. So ... good job.

I'll pop in and say that I am thoroughly offended and dismayed by how the here named post mixed up on the only valid information we have: it's genderqueer, not genderfluid Or it's referring to something I haven't read yet.

[littlebum2002]

You're completely wrong. It's common knowledge that females uses their heads while males uses their muscles.

Men are more likely to be in the Math and Science fields than women, and magic is as close to science as we're going to get in d&d, so statistically V is male.

In addition, V is known for employing logic rather than emotion, and women are more known for using emotion, so that's more evidence that V is male.

[DavidBV]

- V's gender identity is genderqueer

I read the BRiTF commentary and... I'm not quite sure you can actually call it evidence. The Giant is kind of talking from Tarquin's PoV about the Order in that sentence.