Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed

[eschmenk]

There are at least general conventions, like not faking a surrender, not attacking during a parley, not moving through neutral territory without their permission, not assassinating the enemy ruler during a negotiation...

I think the term "war crime" should be reserved for things that are far worse than simply violating established conventions of noble behavior. People do far worse things IRL. If we accuse someone of committing a war crime, it should mean more than that their behavior wasn't noble.

As to whether or not Parson is likable, that probably depends on the reader. I'm fine with what Parson does because I think he's preventing even worse things from happening.

[Razade]

I think the term "war crime" should be reserved for things that are far worse than simply violating established conventions of noble behavior. People do far worse things IRL. If we accuse someone of committing a war crime, it should mean more than that their behavior wasn't noble.

As to whether or not Parson is likable, that probably depends on the reader. I'm fine with what Parson does because I think he's preventing even worse things from happening.

Well to be fair, he did basically make a Doomsday Weapon with the Volcano.

[eschmenk]

Well to be fair, he did basically make a Doomsday Weapon with the Volcano.

OTOH, that was what Erfworld required him to do. He physically couldn't order Maggie, Wanda and Sizemore into the MK because his duty required him to attempt any gambit that might work.

IMO, the Titans would be the real war criminals in Erfworld because they're the ones who set things up the way they are.

[Douglas]

I think the term "war crime" should be reserved for things that are far worse than simply violating established conventions of noble behavior. People do far worse things IRL. If we accuse someone of committing a war crime, it should mean more than that their behavior wasn't noble.

I think the term "war crime" is being used here in its real world sense - and most of those things are actually, officially, war crimes in the real world.

Getting into that in a real world context would be breaking the forum rules, but consider the impact Parson's behavior has had in Erfworld. Even completely disregarding issues of honor, nobility, morality, etc., it's had a quite substantial practical impact. When Parson tries to negotiate, people don't trust him. Any face to face meeting now requires elaborate procedures to make certain he's not going to croak or capture whoever he's meeting. Any truce or parley now requires careful precautions to make sure he's not turning it into an ambush. Overall, even when both Parson and the other side genuinely want to end a war by talking things out, actually doing so has enormous logistical requirements. Ending a war through total extermination of the other side has come a great deal closer to being universally the simplest and easiest option. That is the real reason it's frowned upon.

[Razade]

OTOH, that was what Erfworld required him to do. He physically couldn't order Maggie, Wanda and Sizemore into the MK because his duty required him to attempt any gambit that might work.

IMO, the Titans would be the real war criminals in Erfworld because they're the ones who set things up the way they are.

We agree, what he did was what he had to do. Free Will isn't a thing in Erfworld.

[MReav]

I think the term "war crime" is being used here in its real world sense - and most of those things are actually, officially, war crimes in the real world.

Thank you.

[DigoDragon]

We should bottle those tears. Probably make a few thousand Shmuckers for them.

[eschmenk]

Overall, even when both Parson and the other side genuinely want to end a war by talking things out, actually doing so has enormous logistical requirements. Ending a war through total extermination of the other side has come a great deal closer to being universally the simplest and easiest option. That is the real reason it's frowned upon.

You were right that perfidy is a war crime in the RW. I disagree that it's a big of a deal in Erfworld as you made it out to be, though. I think it was understood that different people had different standards of behavior there. People would have learned to not trust Parson, but I don't think that Parson would have had any universal impact. Some people would still be trusted; other people still wouldn't be trusted. Nothing would change. One would expect that Parson demonstrating that he can't be trusted would have made things worse for GK's troops, but so far, not even that has happened. If anything, it may have actually saved GK's forces at Spacerock.

Let's not forget that Jetstone's parleys were only intended to serve Jetstone's egos. They weren't intended to be anything that GK could benefit from. It's not as if making Jetstone unwilling to offer such a thing would make Erfworld a much worse place.

If someone really wants to negotiate to end a war, they will still find a way. Ansom is currently negotiating in Jetstone, for example. Sides could arrange to send messages back and forth via hats or to use thinkamancers. I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as you made it out to be.

[MReav]

The point of bringing up Parson's perfidity was in response to a question as to why readers might find Parson unlikeable. That it could make him unlikeable in universe is besides the point.

[Aquillion]

Let's not forget that Jetstone's parleys were only intended to serve Jetstone's egos. They weren't intended to be anything that GK could benefit from.

That's not true (although GK might not have realized this.) Tremennis made it clear he intended to take the negotiations seriously, since, as he pointed out, GK's wealth meant that it was still a threat.

They intended to kill Wanda, yes; there was no question about that. She was too dangerous, so losing her was always inevitable if GK lost. But there was still a lot of room for legitimate negotiation, and from the way Tremannis was talking to his father, he intended to make serious offers to GK -- ones they might have legitimately considered rather than just thinly-veiled insults. Not ones they would have liked, but, well, that's what happens when you're losing (and, as far as he knew, they were.)

[eschmenk]

Parson might moralize, but in the end, if the reason so many of the other sides don't trust him is because he's demonstrably untrustworthy, then it's not exactly an unfair reaction.

The point of bringing up Parson's perfidity was in response to a question as to why readers might find Parson unlikeable. That it could make him unlikeable in universe is besides the point.

First of all, I think that the matter of what point you wanted to make is irrelevant because I was responding to Douglas, not to you. Why shouldn't I talk about what I want to talk about? You don't have any authority to unilaterally define what the subject matter is especially when I'm responding to someone else.

Secondly, it looks to me as if you brought up the subject of how Parson is regarded in-world yourself, so how could you claim it was beside the point, even if you had the authority to do so?

[MReav]

That first part was in response to someone else's dismissal of what Parson had done and the second was I'll admit a poor attempt to steer the conversation back to the original point of who was likeable and who was not. I'll not butt in again.

[Razade]

That first part was in response to someone else's dismissal of what Parson had done and the second was I'll admit a poor attempt to steer the conversation back to the original point of who was likeable and who was not. I'll not butt in again.

Likability is subjective, no one (as far as I know) has argued that Parson is or isn't likable. That's up to the individual reader. What I said was Parson hasn't committed war crimes because in a world that is nothing but war and with no ruling body to determine what the -rules- are outside the Titans there are no War Crimes, especially in a world where everything is guided by Fate. You can't commit a crime if you've got no autonomy.

[eschmenk]

That's not true (although GK might not have realized this.) Tremennis made it clear he intended to take the negotiations seriously, since, as he pointed out, GK's wealth meant that it was still a threat.

Stately didn't seem to understand it that way. Stately's reaction was, "You know, I think you just want to talk to this warlord." Tramennis didn't refute that. I don't think either of them expected Stanley to be willing to accept what Tramennis was going to propose. If Stately had learned to trust Tramennis by that point, maybe there would have been a good chance of something good coming out of the negotiations, but Stately still didn't. Stanley wouldn't have trusted Parson all that much, either, unless he was still under Maggie's spell. I doubt that things would have worked out decently from that.

After Stately was dead and Parson got Stanley to agree to try diplomacy, things became much more favorable for a truce between Jetstone and GK, but that still hasn't happened yet.

[guttering flame]

There are at least general conventions, like not faking a surrender, not attacking during a parley, not moving through neutral territory without their permission, not assassinating the enemy ruler during a negotiation...

Faking surrender and breaking parley may be frowned upon but you just need to examine the usual preparations for them in our world (meeting on neutral grounds, not bringing weapons, giving hostages for ensuring good behavior, disarmament, the list goes on) to see how uncertain they are.

When Parson used the Magic Kingdom they stopped being neutral though to be fair to Goblin Knob they were being ostracised in the MK even before that.

As for the Volcano, the Coalition was in the process of exterminating the Goblin Knobbers. And extermination of this side and everyone in it was the plan from the beginning. Parson didn't kill any civilians with the volcano. They even decrypted the casualties.

If there was a real War Crime in the story it was burning down a city and everyone in it with dragons (happened during Ansom and Wanda's campaign). It was either Wanda or Sylvia's decision. Parson thought it was kinda horrible.

eschmenk

Stately didn't ...

Jetstone's former ruler is called Slately.

[Razade]

As for the Volcano, the Coalition was in the process of exterminating the Goblin Knobbers. And extermination of this side and everyone in it was the plan from the beginning. Parson didn't kill any civilians with the volcano. They even decrypted the casualties.

There are no civilians in Erfworld to kill.

[ace rooster]

There are no civilians in Erfworld to kill.

Well that does make it easier.

[-D-]

Well that does make it easier.

Name one person that isn't expected to contribute to war effort?

[Yuki Akuma]

Most courtiers?

[-D-]

Most courtiers?

They are advisors to the commander and they can also serve in the army. They are like generals, not expected to take the helm, but can be called upon to serve.

Erfworld doesn't have elderly, women and children in the classical sense. Erfworld people don't produce an offspring, elderly are just people Fate wants removed and children don't exist at all.

[Razade]

Most courtiers?

They have stat blocks and combat abilities and combat uses. Courtiers are just other Units that have special privilage. There is no Unit Courtier that we've seen. Everything in Erfworld is geared to fighting. There are no farms and farmers, animals just live their life and when they die they become food. There are no clothes washers, clothing just gets clean at the start of the round. Doctors are all Healomancers. We haven't seen Scientists, just Casters. Buildings without combat use are empty facades. There's no one living in cities that aren't there to defend the city in some way shape or form. There are no civilian casualties to be concerned about, there are only enemies and nominal allies.

[Kantaki]

They have stat blocks and combat abilities and combat uses. Courtiers are just other Units that have special privilage. There is no Unit Courtier that we've seen. Everything in Erfworld is geared to fighting. There are no farms and farmers, animals just live their life and when they die they become food. There are no clothes washers, clothing just gets clean at the start of the round. Doctors are all Healomancers. We haven't seen Scientists, just Casters. Buildings without combat use are empty facades. There's no one living in cities that aren't there to defend the city in some way shape or form. There are no civilian casualties to be concerned about, there are only enemies and nominal allies.

Ähm, I'm pretty sure there are farms, they just work automagically. And are more efficient if you assign someone to look at them every day. Just like other types of building.
Like Parson in Gobwin Knob or Tindelao on Charlie’s chicken farm.

[Razade]

Ähm, I'm pretty sure there are farms, they just work automagically. And are more efficient if you assign someone to look at them every day. Just like other types of building.
Like Parson in Gobwin Knob or Tindelao on Charlie’s chicken farm.

They're called farms, they don't function like farms in Stupid World. They're just plots with animals that live and die. We're never told about non-animal food but I suppose one could make that leap. There's no one planting anything, no one raising the chicks. It all just happens on its own. The manager doesn't have to do anything, there's no work involved. There's no skills gained from being a farmer that we've seen. There's another bit to this though. Killing in Erfworld isn't immoral. Killing is the expected thing to do. It's what you're meant to do. That's what Book One is all about, Parson -not- wanting to kill because he thinks its wrong. That's the whole conflict between Parson and Sizemore. People aren't upset that Parson killed all those people with the Volcanco (except maybe Sizemore), they're upset because he did it in an underhanded way and that they're not Royals.

[Yuki Akuma]

People appear to be able to plant vegetables to make gardens, actually - Dove has apparently done it in the Digdoug chapter. Digdoug did some Dirtamancy to make it more efficient for a few turns.

That might require magic though. Dove is a caster after all.

[Anteros]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

[SZbNAhL]

People appear to be able to plant vegetables to make gardens, actually - Dove has apparently done it in the Digdoug chapter. Digdoug did some Dirtamancy to make it more efficient for a few turns.

That might require magic though. Dove is a caster after all.

I seem to recall the Florists having a communal vegetable garden as well. Might be that it's a Hippie power that Dove cloned through Carneymancy, but I think the simpler explanation is that any barbarian willing to spend a long time in one place can do it. Occam's Razor and all that.

[Reverent-One]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

No, they're dead because Charlie killed them. Parson didn't force him to do a spray and pray attack into the MK.

[-D-]

We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.

You mean Charlie's? Parson was in MK but he didn't kill no one unless in self-defense.

[Anteros]

1. None of that would have happened if Parson hadn't violated their peace in the first place. He's responsible for putting them at risk.

Actions have consequences, and when you invade a neutral country you are responsible when the inhabitants of that country are drawn into your wars.

2. Plenty of Gobwin Knob troops were shooting casters too. I'm also hard pressed to call it pure self defense when they're reacting to the fact that Wanda did actually decrypt several casters. Even if they didn't kill the casters in the first place, performing necromancy on their corpses and mind wiping them into their slaves is a pretty clear act of aggression.

[Recaiden]

1. You may as well blame the Coalition for forcing Parson into the MK in the first place.

2. After the casters attacked them.