Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. V: You Joined the Cavalry.

[LaZodiac]

My quick 2 copper pieces (hey, this is still technically a D&D forum, after all ):

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Another note on Michelin Man's blood -- if it can be used to vaccinate against the change, does that mean it can also vaccinate a bog-standard human against turning to a gray crust and disintegrating if they're exposed to terrigen (sp.)?

So, if I'm reading this right, then Hive Grant tried to absorb the telekinetic guy and Gorgon, but failed due to their being inhmans? In short, he didn't know he couldn't consume inhumans, but only discovered it through experimentation?

And yes, the Daisy/Lincoln thing makes me wince. They almost come across as being mildly repulsed by each other, which makes it rather unpleasant that the script forces them into a supposedly passionate encounter. I hope they don't focus too much on that coming up; it's quite awkward to watch even briefly. Again, as noted, Bobbi and Hunter are like the exact opposite. They should have left "lustful grappling in any convenient cover" as their shtick, and kept Daisy and Lincoln as just two characters.

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Okay so first off...holy **** you're probably right. If it protects Inhuman possible blood from Teragenesis it should, by that very same creed, protect humans from it as well. This is more then just a vaccine against TG, it's a protective thing against people who it could KILL. That's awesome, though not entirely needed now thanks to how TG works now, due to the crystals melting away from the metal of the Diviners.

I think Hive knows he can't eat Inhumans, he was just giving Magnetman and Gorgon a dust off to scare them, to show them a fraction of his power.

For what it's worth I think we're supposed to see Daisy and Lincoln's relationship like that. Like, the lack of chemistry is the intent? We'll see, though I'll note that this is clearly the weakest part of this season by far (which doesn't say TOO much since the seasons so good).

[Giggling Ghast]

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I thought Hive makes Inhumans into his willing followers. He just can't "feed" on them.

[Hytheter]

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I thought Hive makes Inhumans into his willing followers. He just can't "feed" on them.

Yeah, I'm fairly certain this is the answer.

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Him saying "[I'll] make a believer out of him" kinda gives it away. Especially now that he is, indeed, willingly following Hive where he previously seemed reluctant. I don't think failed consumption would produce the same effect.

As for the posts above yours: I'm fairly certain that terrigen is harmless to humans. It was the obelisk outside the terrigen crystals that kills them. Hence why nobody is crumbling to dust from the fish pills; the terrigen leeched into the ecosystem but the deadly magic alien metal stayed behind due to weight or insolubility.

[Reddish Mage]

Daisy's 'Inhuman birthright" schtick is wearisome. Not everyone wants powers, and not all the Inhumans get to win the superpower lottery like she did.

It's not even a natural mutation; it's a Kree experiment, and the Kree would gladly wipe out the Inhumans if they learned that the experiment hadn't ended.

"Not a natural mutation" as if the origins of a superhuman people matter. What matters is that, like mutants or what have you, these are people and two threads ago I established they were also a race (at least their treatment in the show is exactly like they were a race of human).

Daisy's birthright speech is natural because that is how the Inhumans always saw themselves, and how the show has treated the inhuman group since they identified themselves back in season 2.

Lincoln is filled with self-doubt and perhaps some self-hatred (and general anxiety, anger issues and lack of control). You hear the beginnings of an argument that some powers may be uncontrollable and some Inhumans transform into monsters, but we have yet to see that this is any sort of norm in this unique people.

In the comics, Hive is a tentacle monster created by Hydra, so this incarnation is a bit different. I imagine it just consumed the humans to restore Ward's body to peak health.

Ah the one thing Grant Ward needs to become even creepier...

[LaZodiac]

What's funny to me is that we've already GOT a good example of how the powers can be destructive if not taught properly...with Daisy. She was going to end up killing herself thanks to how she was hiding her powers, until she managed to get them under control thanks to guidance. Now she seems like the poster child for "cursed with awesome" like Storm in XMen...despite the difference being Storm apparently always had her powers in check whereas Daisy almost earthquaked herself into splinters.

[Reddish Mage]

What's funny to me is that we've already GOT a good example of how the powers can be destructive if not taught properly...with Daisy. She was going to end up killing herself thanks to how she was hiding her powers, until she managed to get them under control thanks to guidance. Now she seems like the poster child for "cursed with awesome" like Storm in XMen...despite the difference being Storm apparently always had her powers in check whereas Daisy almost earthquaked herself into splinters.

I think the key is "if not taught properly." Like mutants, inhumans have all sorts of gifts they need to train and learn and can prove quite dangerous if not properly guided...just like human gifts. The idea that their powers are a disease is, Lincoln's interrupted inaccurate monologue notwithstanding, bigoted nonsense.

[thorgrim29]

Does it matter if they're a race of a disease? At any moment some people will turn into stone and emerge with superpowers and possibly physical mutations. Only a few of them will be happy with this change (probably the kind you don't want to have powers) and a certain % of them will go violently insane because of that and/or cause any number of damages. And if they distribute the vaccine no one will ever know they lost the potential. Assuming that they can synthesize the Inhuman vaccine I'm pretty sure it would be the duty of all relevant governments to spread it. They could insert it in the MMR and flue vaccines for example. It won't completely get rid of the Inhumans but it will reduce their potential numbers by what, 90+% ?

Daisy is all gung-ho about it because she spent her life looking for a place to fit into and the oppressed minority side of it sets off all her moral crusader instincts. This makes perfect sense for her character but she's wrong.

[Hopeless]

I thought that was the cocoon for Melty Joe and not some unfortunate bystander?

[LordRahl6]

After what I saw in regards to how Gilyera and the South America Freezing guy are reacting around It, I definitely believe that the comic book name WILL be referred to before the end of this season. Also, regarding the Daisy/Lincoln argument on Inhumans going through Terragenisis, I have to agree with Lincoln especially how out of place he seems to be even with Daisy there.

[Friv]

I think the key is "if not taught properly." Like mutants, inhumans have all sorts of gifts they need to train and learn and can prove quite dangerous if not properly guided...just like human gifts. The idea that their powers are a disease is, Lincoln's interrupted inaccurate monologue notwithstanding, bigoted nonsense.

The problem is, as things stand he's kind of right.

If we discount the Afterlife people, and I'm going to discount the Afterlife people because they had a whole thing about only letting a small number of people get powers, we've seen eight Inhumans transformed. Of those eight, Daisy almost killed herself, Andrew went psychotic, and Dwight (the guy who could sense Inhumans) was wracked with pain all the time without much in the way of benefits.

Now, it's a small sample size, but that's a lot of serious problems. Even if only an eighth of Inhumans have terrible psychotic breaks, that means that in the names of giving seven people cool super powers that might ruin their lives, you're going to destroy somebody. And these proto-Inhumans don't have an established culture. They don't know their heritage, they have lives, and societies, and traditions of their own. Afterlife was a culture, but Afterlife is gone, and for some reason the showrunners had all but two people from Afterlife murdered, so they're not going to be doing much teaching.

In this situation, without access to people who can figure out who would and who wouldn't be a functioning Inhuman, it's negligent not to give people the vaccine and not take the risk. The vaccine specifically doesn't work on people who already have powers, so you can't just wait and see, and only cure people whose powers are demonstrably devastating. Doubly so since it doesn't seem to affect their genes, just shield their body, so the vaccine wouldn't affect future generations if you can figure this thing out. I understand Daisy's concerns, and her arguments make sense for her to make, but I'm on Lincoln's side.

[huttj509]

I'm with Lincoln on the issue. His position actually seems the most reasonable.

If someone came along and said "Great, now we can vaccinate everybody and no more Inhumans." I disagree.

If someone said "Destroy the research, no vaccine for anybody." I'd also disagree.

"Let people have the choice for themselves" is not unreasonable.

In Afterlife, the people chosen to change had years of preparation. They knew in broad strokes what to expect, they knew what to deal with, they had a support structure to help them learn and cope.

And still, *still*, you have Lincoln who in a panic accidentally kills a friend with his powers.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Frankly, in this place I thing Jaiying had it right. Physical screening, psychological assessments, then you're a terrigenesis candidate.

More on point, this random terrigenesis is a disaster in the making. Assuming the Inhuman gene is evenly distributed, there are a lot of poor people, people in Third World countries, and a lot of women, who are about to suddenly become very powerful. Society will be remade, which is rarely a gentle process.

One final thought. Seeing what Hive does to people to repair itself, it's small wonder Inhumans viewed Jaiying as the Second Coming of the Great Leader.

[Reddish Mage]

Did I just hear the problem with the inhuman genes is that too many poor people, minorities, and women are about to get power?

That's it discussion over.

[Douglas]

Did I just hear the problem with the inhuman genes is that too many poor people, minorities, and women are about to get power?

That's it discussion over.

I think the intended point was that people in circumstances prone to violent resolutions are about to get great power that is well suited to violence. And, well, that's a recipe for lots of violence.

[Joran]

The problem is, as things stand he's kind of right.

If we discount the Afterlife people, and I'm going to discount the Afterlife people because they had a whole thing about only letting a small number of people get powers, we've seen eight Inhumans transformed. Of those eight, Daisy almost killed herself, Andrew went psychotic, and Dwight (the guy who could sense Inhumans) was wracked with pain all the time without much in the way of benefits.

There's also the Inhuman that got May her nickname and Raina, despite eventually coming to grips with her power, was in constant pain. Dwight and Lash are probably the worst examples. Dwight got nothing but pain. Lash is completely consumed by his power and has no control over it; he's a completely different person.

And for every Yo-Yo, you can easily get a Gorgon (dude with the glasses welded to his face), someone who abuses their power.

[Carl]

I'm sorry but i'm with daisy here. Whilst in agree they need to do somthing about the fish pills situation so it's not just random transformations taking away the option for everyone mandatorily is wrong. It's their body, their heritage, and most importantly their choice.

I know it brings up comparisons to guns. But that doesn't work for one simple reason, even for lincoln being a powered inhuman is a fundamental part of their personal identity on some level. Lincoln may be very conflicted by it, but it's still part of him. It would be like developing a "vaccine" that turns all non-white peoples skin white and then mandating they take it. For many of them their skin colour is tied into the ethnicity and personal identity, it's part of who they are.

I agree of course that because it's got so many dangers involved theres a need to regulate and screen the whole thing, but just blanket removing it isn't acceptable for me.

[Joran]

I'm sorry but i'm with daisy here. Whilst in agree they need to do somthing about the fish pills situation so it's not just random transformations taking away the option for everyone mandatorily is wrong. It's their body, their heritage, and most importantly their choice.

I know it brings up comparisons to guns. But that doesn't work for one simple reason, even for lincoln being a powered inhuman is a fundamental part of their personal identity on some level. Lincoln may be very conflicted by it, but it's still part of him. It would be like developing a "vaccine" that turns all non-white peoples skin white and then mandating they take it. For many of them their skin colour is tied into the ethnicity and personal identity, it's part of who they are.

I agree of course that because it's got so many dangers involved theres a need to regulate and screen the whole thing, but just blanket removing it isn't acceptable for me.

Well, their argument is a bit nuanced. Daisy is objecting to the idea of vaccination at all; she views terrigenesis as a birthright and Inhumans as a people. One of the reasons why she finds the idea of vaccination horrid is because she understands that if governments get a hold of it, then they'll make it mandatory.

Lincoln's argument is not mandatory vaccination, but vaccination as a choice, especially because he came from a community where terrigenesis was tightly controlled and they well understood the dangers of uncontrolled terrigenesis (with the Calvary incident being a key moment).

They both have valid points, which is why this powered people vs. unpowered people is such a popular trope.

I'm towards the choice side, especially because we've seen really terrible effects for some people and it's bound to cause major instability in the world. Just because there's something in your DNA doesn't mean you shouldn't try to stop it or change it or fix it if it's going to cause you harm.

"Not a natural mutation" as if the origins of a superhuman people matter. What matters is that, like mutants or what have you, these are people and two threads ago I established they were also a race (at least their treatment in the show is exactly like they were a race of human).

Daisy's birthright speech is natural because that is how the Inhumans always saw themselves, and how the show has treated the inhuman group since they identified themselves back in season 2.

The mapping of Inhumans to a race is imperfect, simply because it requires an outside trigger. It's not solely something they are, but it's also something that happens to them. It's like arguing people that have taken the super soldier serum or people exposed to gamma radiation are a different race. They were human before the change and as Coulson asserts at the meeting, they should be treated as human afterwards.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Did I just hear the problem with the inhuman genes is that too many poor people, minorities, and women are about to get power?

That's it discussion over.

Nope. It is a potential problem, because history shows that have-nots suddenly getting power tends to go very badly, not only for people who were haves but also for other have-nots.* So we need to make it gradual enough to attenuate that impulse. Or you can just expand the genocides in West Africa to include most of the world. Watch the Muslim world disintegrate now that women suddenly have enough power to demand an equal share. And consider the geopolitical implications of over a third of all superhumans residing in either China or India (for more fun, remember that those two countries have had four declared wars and innumerable minor clashes in living memory).

These and other issues show that the planet is poised on the edge of a steep and high precipice. Something I suspect will factor into events in Civil War in a few weeks.


*This was the conceit that got me interested in Strong Female Protagonist. I quit after it became clear that, rather than even giving a cursory treatment of the implications, the story would focus on a spoiled co-ed whinging because there was no push-here-to-solve-magically-everything button that she could punch. Apparently trying to do some good instead of waiting for utopia to be handed to you on a platinum platter is beneath superheroes.

[Carl]

Well, their argument is a bit nuanced. Daisy is objecting to the idea of vaccination at all; she views terrigenesis as a birthright and Inhumans as a people. One of the reasons why she finds the idea of vaccination horrid is because she understands that if governments get a hold of it, then they'll make it mandatory.

Lincoln's argument is not mandatory vaccination, but vaccination as a choice, especially because he came from a community where terrigenesis was tightly controlled and they well understood the dangers of uncontrolled terrigenesis (with the Calvary incident being a key moment).

They both have valid points, which is why this powered people vs. unpowered people is such a popular trope.

I'm towards the choice side, especially because we've seen really terrible effects for some people and it's bound to cause major instability in the world. Just because there's something in your DNA doesn't mean you shouldn't try to stop it or change it or fix it if it's going to cause you harm.

I think where on the same page here. I'm behind because as usual i get the show off DVD recorder from a relative and i haven't got either yet, (sleep problems on my end), so i'm going of arguments here. I'm basically arguing against the "force vaccinate everyone" line of thinking people have been pushing the last few posts. I agree if they don;t want it they should be free to get vaccinated too.

[hustlertwo]

I'm with Lincoln on the issue. His position actually seems the most reasonable.

If someone came along and said "Great, now we can vaccinate everybody and no more Inhumans." I disagree.

If someone said "Destroy the research, no vaccine for anybody." I'd also disagree.

"Let people have the choice for themselves" is not unreasonable.

In Afterlife, the people chosen to change had years of preparation. They knew in broad strokes what to expect, they knew what to deal with, they had a support structure to help them learn and cope.

And still, *still*, you have Lincoln who in a panic accidentally kills a friend with his powers.

Yeah, this isn't quite the same as the cure/no cure argument in X-Men 3, where you're talking about the potential eradication of Inhumans as a 'species'. If it does not impact existing ones, then the morality becomes a bit less gray. Giving people a chance to inoculate themselves in case they don't want to go through this is just the right thing.

[3SecondCultist]

I think the intended point was that people in circumstances prone to violent resolutions are about to get great power that is well suited to violence. And, well, that's a recipe for lots of violence.

I actually support what Lincoln is saying for that reason. The fact that the show - by way of having him apologize instead of Daisy - has him be in the wrong is just salt in the wound for me. The show doesn't seem to acknowledge that the points he raised about Lash et al were really quite valid ones.

I'm not saying that the government should be forcibly vaccinating Inhumans, but I don't agree that it's a 'birthright' that should be forced on people, especially those who either don't want powers or have obviously harmful ones to themselves. Dwight Frye is the perfect example of this. Just because something is in your DNA doesn't mean you need to be beholden to it.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm definitely with Lincoln here.

(And for the quick reference to guns above -- no politics, but I'm a firearm owner, and I see no comparison. After all, I can choose when I want to go to the range or hunting for tasty, tasty venison. Would I want my eyes permanently replaced with a couple of .45s? No frickin' thank you.)

Terrigenesis is a random crapshoot that is just as likely to leave you with some absolutely horrible change as it is to be something useful. Something that ruins your life totally.

If people were transforming into weird stuff like that, I'd be terrified of turning into something that would ruin some part of my existence, or all of it.

Flowers felt like she was cutting herself internally every time she moved. The guy allergic to inhumans was in a state of apparently constant suffering. Teleport guy was blind. And Lash turns into a psychopathic serial killer, a literal monster in every sense, and wanders around killing people.

If the powers were all useful, it might be different. If the transformations were predictable, it might be different. But as it is, it's like rolling a die: even numbers, you get something useful, odd numbers, your life is destroyed and you may actually turn into something unspeakable.

Daisy here is trying to force people with that gene to undergo the change, even though it has as big a chance of destroying them in some loathsome, torturous fashion as it does of giving them a power boost with relatively few downsides.

Isn't it borderline evil denying these people a vaccine that could prevent them from turning into something that could ruin their lives and their sense of self forever?

Not to go all Godwin here, but doesn't Daisy's position have a whiff of Dr. Whitehall about it:

"You vill accept terrigenesis und you vill like it, ja!"

[Carl]

My understanding is that daisy's problem is that if the vaccine exist people won't be given a choice to not take it. And she's right. If world governments could be relied upon to give people actual choice she'd have a point, but there zero way that would happen.

[Calemyr]

My understanding is that daisy's problem is that if the vaccine exist people won't be given a choice to not take it. And she's right. If world governments could be relied upon to give people actual choice she'd have a point, but there zero way that would happen.

True, and it wouldn't be viable anyway. Concocting this vaccine for a mass inoculation at this point is stupid. Too many have been exposed already, whether they've been changed or not. The sheer amount of work to pull this off for the minimal result it would receive... it wouldn't be plausible. Besides, we don't know if the benefit is temporary or not, any side effects of injecting something based on mutated blood into the populace, or anything. Dr. Garner was right, it'd be a good decade before plausible treatment with this, by which point the damage will be done.

On a shorter term, however, it could be a valuable asset for bolstering emergency response units, protecting them when operating in contaminated areas or working on contaminated resources (such as Jaiyang's books). More important is the what caught the attention of Fitzsimmons in the first place: Creel survived contact with a terrigen artifact - an event that has resulted in death or dismemberment of everyone else before this point. A vaccine to protect agents from undiluted terrigen would be a priceless discovery for SHIELD and allied forces, and I'm sure more than a few would gladly forego the chance for teleportation and telekinesis to skip the risk of gaining quills that grind your muscle to pulp when you move or turning you into an amoral monster. Besides, even the really, really "good" powers come with crippling side effects that can, at best, be mitigated through training.

In other news, I'm beginning to not like Daisy again. Her behavior regarding inhumans is hardly surprising, given her origins as a "hacktivist", but she's being really stupid. She ignores her own history because it turned out okay, ignores the damage the transformation has done to other people and their surroundings, ignores the fact that even some people who look like they've got a handle on things are trapped in a permanent battle to maintain control, or how these powers can turn even a sane and gentle soul into a merciless mass murderer when things go wrong. She's ignoring the brutal aftermath of every mission she's gone on with Shield. And no matter how many people remind her of that stuff, or how she's an exceptional example on the good side and nowhere near a baseline for the inhuman experience, she keeps reading every choice and every word in the most extremist way she can. She's honestly starting to sound like Jaiyang at the moment, in fact.

[LaZodiac]

She's honestly starting to sound like Jaiyang at the moment, in fact.

I'm singling this part out because a lot of what you said is perfectly great and I agree with. But this is the thing. I think all of the above is happening for someone to bring this up, and for that to actually shake Daisy's world up something fierce. She IS starting to become like Jiyang, and when she realizes that she's gonna stop. I'm confident in where the show will go with this, but you're not wrong that Daisy's being a butt about it.

[Reddish Mage]

I disagree. I think Daisy's experience with superpowers is meant to be the rule rather than the exception.

Inhumanity has the genetic potential for superpowers and were meant to receive them. It's a natural part of being inhuman. It's either that or Daisy is the one "hopeful monster" and, given the racial categories that HAVE been mapped unto the inhumans, the disease theory is very disturbing.

[comicshorse]

I disagree. I think Daisy's experience with superpowers is meant to be the rule rather than the exception.

Inhumanity has the genetic potential for superpowers and were meant to receive them. It's a natural part of being inhuman.

Natural in the sense it was designed that way by an alien race and implemented by their tampering with human genetics

[thorgrim29]

I disagree. I think Daisy's experience with superpowers is meant to be the rule rather than the exception.

Inhumanity has the genetic potential for superpowers and were meant to receive them. It's a natural part of being inhuman. It's either that or Daisy is the one "hopeful monster" and, given the racial categories that HAVE been mapped unto the inhumans, the disease theory is very disturbing.

The what now? Don't make this about an IRL issue man, it's about people who are going to be forced to go through a traumatic and very likely negative change on top of being a huge public risk, who would never know about it either way. I don't see what the issue is here.

[Calemyr]

I disagree. I think Daisy's experience with superpowers is meant to be the rule rather than the exception.

Inhumanity has the genetic potential for superpowers and were meant to receive them. It's a natural part of being inhuman. It's either that or Daisy is the one "hopeful monster" and, given the racial categories that HAVE been mapped unto the inhumans, the disease theory is very disturbing.

Speaking from the examples we're given, Daisy is the all-time lottery winner of inhumans. She wasn't physically disfigured, she was activated in a setting where people cared for her and knew enough about this stuff to at least try to help, then she was placed in a position where a powerful old wise woman helped take her the rest of the way in mitigating the side effects of her powers. Oh, and she has the ability to not use her powers. Now she's in a position where she's got all of the benefits, none of the penalties, and all the support and acceptance she could hope for.

Compare her to Lincoln, whose admission that he constantly struggles to keep his powers from running wild gets ignored because Daisy is too busy removing her shirt. She the gives him the worst advice possible for his situation. You don't want to see him lose control. You don't want to see Daisy lose control either, for that matter. Losing control with that much power is a big thing, but it's so easy for Daisy that she flat out ignores evidence to the contrary.

Also, as comicshorse points out, there is nothing natural about it, nor anything predestined (save from a meta perspective).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Inhumanity has the genetic potential for superpowers and were meant to receive them. It's a natural part of being inhuman.

There's nothing natural in being turned into a disposable biological weapon system, and that's all the Kree were trying to accomplish. Load a batch of slaves in a drop bay, gas them with mist, toss them at the enemy. Their well-being or even survival is not a factor.