Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. V: You Joined the Cavalry.

[Dorath]

You'd think nope, it's legit.

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It'll be the Cosmic Cube messing with his memories.

[LaZodiac]

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It'll be the Cosmic Cube messing with his memories.

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They've said outright that it's not, but we'll see. The fact that this is even a thing that is pretending to happen is awful.

[Calemyr]

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They've said outright that it's not, but we'll see. The fact that this is even a thing that is pretending to happen is awful.

"Let's see the Russos do something with this."

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

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They've said outright that it's not, but we'll see. The fact that this is even a thing that is pretending to happen is awful.

I went to pick up my books today and man I hate being a comic fan sometimes... after 4ish years of being annoyed at DC I just got an awesome story that I'm hyped for... and I get this from marvel.

[Dragonus45]

Yes.

Iron Fist And Doctor Strange are both white guys who become The Best At An Asian Thing (Secret kung-fu city martial arts, and Secret Tibetan Magics). This puts them in a long tradition of stories about White Guys who show up in a non-white culture, and become the best at that culture's thing.

This makes people upset.

In recent years, there has been a trend of using reboots/adaptations/Legacy characters to introduce some diversity into the lily-white world of superheroes. Sam Wilson takes the Captain America Shield, Kamala Khan takes the mantle of Ms Marvel, Iris and Wally west are black in the New 52, ect. Keep the popular characters (Who are effectively Brands), but make them not white dudes.

Daniel Rand was a prime target for this sort of facelift. A somewhat well-known character with an adaptation upcoming, whose backstory contains problematic elements.

So could you explain why any of means hey should chance his race though. All the characters other than the Wests you mento are legacy characters, can't really have those before you have the original show up. As for the Wests we did get Jesse l Martin out of it which is great but Iris wears actress is the worst so that's a break even at best. Also he idea that Daniel is "problematic" is a load of BS to begin with. What's so problematic about a white guy knowing Kung Fu. Other than racism towards him I suppose.

Yup, for all the reasons that BRC states, and because I'd be thrilled if there's more Asians within the MCU. I've liked the Netflix series enough to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they can do something interesting with Iron Fist, because the Iron Fist as a concept is so dated to the 1970's, where all things Eastern and Martial Arts was in vogue.

Although, really, I dream about an adaptation of the Runaways in the MCU.

Sure diversity is great, but with all the side characters who happen to be Asian in iron fist stuff there still will be plenty around so why change his race on top of that?

[t209]

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They've said outright that it's not, but we'll see. The fact that this is even a thing that is pretending to happen is awful.

http://time.com/4347224/captain-amer.../?xid=homepage
Even the interviewer is feeling it might be a gimmick.
So? Captain America-Prime, anyone?
When I read Spencer, it's like "everyone who disagree with me are evil".
- Like making a union of snake mercenaries into Corporate evil.
- Red Skull into fringe-right wing militia.
- and this.

[Reddish Mage]

Except there's nothing Tibetan about the magic. It's just magic, that is being taught be the current Master Mage, who happens to be Tibetan. Frankly, it'd be better to complain about all the time Wanda Maximoff spent as a stereotypical Gypsy Witch.

The go to remote mountains in the East for vision quest thing has been done to death. I mean, talk about everyone copying Batman Begins, and it was ancient by the time that movie did it...

I actually think Wanda as gypsy is inclusive...largely because you hardly see gypsy anything now a days...

Spoiler: Since when did we start running mods?

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Tancharoen: I think over the course of the three seasons, we’ve been exploring what is possibly the next step in human evolution constantly, and with the introduction of Radcliffe as someone who’s already exploring that next step. And it’s also very much a part of our real world right now, body modification is a huge part of popular culture, so it’s our way of opening up that world within the world of “SHIELD.”

What's this reference to body modification being HUGE in popular culture? Like who is into that?

Aside from things that make Hippy Eastern Vision Quest look new, like piercing and tattoos, I don't have any idea what this guy means about "body modification" being a real mainstream thing....well other than mainstream Hollywood...

[Milo v3]

What's this reference to body modification being HUGE in popular culture? Like who is into that?

Aside from things that make Hippy Eastern Vision Quest look new, like piercing and tattoos, I don't have any idea what this guy means about "body modification" being a real mainstream thing....well other than mainstream Hollywood...

I don't know, there are a tonne of tattoo shows now a days, so many people have piercings that do things like leave those giant holes in your ears, people have started doing things like putting devices into their bodies, prosthetic are becoming ridiculously higher in quality, plastic surgery is becoming more common. Stuff like that.

[Thrudd]

The go to remote mountains in the East for vision quest thing has been done to death. I mean, talk about everyone copying Batman Begins, and it was ancient by the time that movie did it...

I actually think Wanda as gypsy is inclusive...largely because you hardly see gypsy anything now a days...



What's this reference to body modification being HUGE in popular culture? Like who is into that?

Aside from things that make Hippy Eastern Vision Quest look new, like piercing and tattoos, I don't have any idea what this guy means about "body modification" being a real mainstream thing....well other than mainstream Hollywood...

By body modification, I think he means transhumanism. Which has been a theme of lots of sci fi, but I don't know so much about popular culture. But whatever. LMD shenanigans will ensue, and it will be great.

For Iron Fist: technically, K'un Lun is another dimension that happens to have a portal that appears in the Himalayas every ten years. And in "Immortal Iron Fist" it is discovered that there's actually a secret gateway in New York, too. Everyone that lives there isn't technically Tibetan or Asian, they're residents of another world. The tv show could easily show them as being of various ethnicities, so a white guy becoming the Iron Fist won't look quite so colonialist. Though I expect Kun Lun to be seen mostly in flashbacks, with the show featuring Danny having returned to NY and seeking his revenge.

[Sith_Happens]

All the characters other than the Wests you mento are legacy characters, can't really have those before you have the original show up.

It worked for Ant-Man.

[Dragonus45]

It worked for Ant-Man.

You mean the movie where they still had someone as Ant-Man before Scott Lang in universe?

[Giggling Ghast]

You know, an AU story where Captain America is secretly a Hydra plant (OMG SPOILERS unless you've been on the Internet at all today) would be a decent read. But main universe Captain America? That's just silly buggers.

I know that it's going to turn out to be an evil Cap from an alternate dimension or his rejuvenation driving him bonkers, but on the off chance it gets played straight, that's just plain illogical.

[Kitten Champion]

You know, an AU story where Captain America is secretly a Hydra plant (OMG SPOILERS unless you've been on the Internet at all today) would be a decent read. But main universe Captain America? That's just silly buggers.

I know that it's going to turn out to be an evil Cap from an alternate dimension or his rejuvenation driving him bonkers, but on the off chance it gets played straight, that's just plain illogical.

It's set up that it's most likely just going to be Cosmic Cube-related shenanigans, sort of like One More Day but its a fictional villain rewriting their Hero's past rather than Joe Quesada, and is going to be reversed after a brief while of... well, comics-stuff.

This is just... what comics do, and even while griping about it, it's a success to them when they've got people talking about it. Be it in unrelated threads by people who don't read the comics or and in real media rather than just comics media.

Really though, having read it, it's pretty clear that Nick Spencer - who is an adamant Clinton supporter, apparently - and I suppose Marvel by extension, wants to make a somewhat veiled attack on the Trump candidacy. I don't want to get into politics, but I see where it's going in this respect.

[Joran]

I don't know, there are a tonne of tattoo shows now a days, so many people have piercings that do things like leave those giant holes in your ears, people have started doing things like putting devices into their bodies, prosthetic are becoming ridiculously higher in quality, plastic surgery is becoming more common. Stuff like that.

I've heard of people putting magnetic beads in their fingers so they can sense electrical fields or having a headphone implant in the tragus (the fleshy part right outside your ear) or having a RFID or near field communication chip embedded somewhere on their body. There's also the growing prevalence of tattoos and other purely aesthetic body mods.

So could you explain why any of means hey should chance his race though. All the characters other than the Wests you mento are legacy characters, can't really have those before you have the original show up. As for the Wests we did get Jesse l Martin out of it which is great but Iris wears actress is the worst so that's a break even at best. Also he idea that Daniel is "problematic" is a load of BS to begin with. What's so problematic about a white guy knowing Kung Fu. Other than racism towards him I suppose.

Sure diversity is great, but with all the side characters who happen to be Asian in iron fist stuff there still will be plenty around so why change his race on top of that?

Because being the lead character and protagonist is cooler and more empowering than being the mentor or the sidekick or the comic relief and a lead role for an Asian-American is rare. Colleen Wing has been cast, so we're getting at least one Asian character on the show.

The MCU has been flexible with changing up all sorts of properties of pre-existing characters, so I don't really get the objection to Daniel Rand being changed. In addition, I think the Iron Fist is a title, so it doesn't have to be Daniel Rand at all, although I don't think there's been another Iron Fist in the comics.

Our very own Skye/Daisy Johnson had her mother and ethnicity changed and she's a fully realized cool character and as far as I know, nobody objected. Or you can not change the character at all and just cast a diverse actor, like Heimdall or Elektra.

As mentioned before, the idea of Daniel Rand is only problematic in the original comics which were a product of their time, the 1970's when Oriental mysticism was extremely popular in the West. We haven't seen what the MCU is going to do with him and so far, I've been extremely impressed with their offerings, especially the Netflix series, so I'm absolutely willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to make the story compelling and not feel dated.

[Dragonus45]

Because being the lead character and protagonist is cooler and more empowering than being the mentor or the sidekick or the comic relief and a lead role for an Asian-American is rare. Colleen Wing has been cast, so we're getting at least one Asian character on the show.

The MCU has been flexible with changing up all sorts of properties of pre-existing characters, so I don't really get the objection to Daniel Rand being changed. In addition, I think the Iron Fist is a title, so it doesn't have to be Daniel Rand at all, although I don't think there's been another Iron Fist in the comics.

Our very own Skye/Daisy Johnson had her mother and ethnicity changed and she's a fully realized cool character and as far as I know, nobody objected. Or you can not change the character at all and just cast a diverse actor, like Heimdall or Elektra.

As mentioned before, the idea of Daniel Rand is only problematic in the original comics which were a product of their time, the 1970's when Oriental mysticism was extremely popular in the West.

What does being empowering have to do with jack? This is about adapting a character to screen. As for needing to be Daniel Rand at all? If your not going to adapt the actual character people are buying the comics for to the screen than what is the point? That's like sitting down at a movie theatre to watch a Spider-Man movie and finding out Spider-Man is actuall Walter Williams the child of Uncle Bill and Aunt June.

As for Quake it's pretty much an name only adaptation of the character that rather annoyed me since I loved Secret Warriors but at the same time the show and her character have been so damn awful at points I just gave up on even complaining.

The Heimdall is a bit of a head scratcher for me in and of itself. I still don't get why they cast Ilba for the roll other than him in general being awesome but at least no one was demanding they do it to fill a quota. Also calling the 70s problematic for borrowing from eastern mysticism is absurd. Writers from all over the globe do that kind of stuff. That's like me complaining about anime such as Neon Genesis Evangellion admittedly pillaging western culture and symbols for window dressing and calling it's writer racist.

[Joran]

What does being empowering have to do with jack? This is about adapting a character to screen.

You asked a general question about "why isn't having a side character be Asian enough", so that's the answer. I'm Asian-American, so I'd be thrilled if there's a leading role for an Asian-American, especially in the MCU. There's not many of them in the media, so here seemed an opportunity.

That's it.

As for needing to be Daniel Rand at all? If your not going to adapt the actual character people are buying the comics for to the screen than what is the point? That's like sitting down at a movie theatre to watch a Spider-Man movie and finding out Spider-Man is actuall Walter Williams the child of Uncle Bill and Aunt June.

Fair enough, but is Daniel Rand's ethnicity a critical part of his background or is he a typical American? And if he's a typical American, then the character could reflect the makeup of the country, which is diverse. Key word: could, not must. I'm not making demands or calling anything racist or anything like that until I see the actual show.

And you've pointed out an issue (and someone else also pointed it out further up the thread). Superheroes from before the 80's were predominantly male and white. Assuming we think diversity in casting and characters is a good thing (not a given, but stay with me here), there's only a few options the Marvel can do.

1) Create a new character. But, for a series, you generally want the headliner to be someone that everyone already knows, so you're reliant on pre-existing characters. Although, it can work, like with Phil Coulson.

2) Use one of the newer, more diverse superheroes. But again, you run into an issue where people aren't familiar with the character or the character hasn't had the time to build up a fanbase equal to older characters. Everyone knows Peter Parker, not a lot of people know Cindy Moon or Miles Morales. Kamala Khan might make an appearance in the Ms. Marvel movie, but I'm blanking on newer characters making an appearance in the MCU.

3) Change a pre-existing character. Nick Fury was changed between the 616 universe and the Ultimate Universe. Daisy Johnson was changed in adaptation. A lot of times, I don't even recognize an adaptation, like Eric Koenig was a Howling Commando in the 616, but one of a set of suspiciously identical brothers in the MCU.

Also calling the 70s problematic for borrowing from eastern mysticism is absurd. Writers from all over the globe do that kind of stuff. That's like me complaining about anime such as Neon Genesis Evangellion admittedly pillaging western culture and symbols for window dressing and calling it's writer racist.

If it bothers you, you should complain, especially if someone's doing a Western adaptation of Neon Genesis Evangelion and co-opting your culture. Even if they don't change a thing, you at least made them aware that people do care and think it's an issue.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Fair enough, but is Daniel Rand's ethnicity a critical part of his background or is he a typical American?

The Rand family has been comics-version rich since before the Civil War. WASP is pretty much baked into that factoid.

Honestly, the character scans better as an ex-pat coming home to a country that may no longer be the one he remembers/was told about. Which is also a 70s thing.

[Reddish Mage]

Also calling the 70s problematic for borrowing from eastern mysticism is absurd. Writers from all over the globe do that kind of stuff. That's like me complaining about anime such as Neon Genesis Evangellion admittedly pillaging western culture and symbols for window dressing and calling it's writer racist.

Neon Genesis Evangelion butchers the Kabbalah and mixes it with the Dead Sea Scrolls Apocalypses in ways that make absolute no sense, and takes a completely absurd and mixed-up take on Genesis....okay that criticism sounds silly even as I make it.

The difference is that Evangelion mostly focuses on the obscure Western Mysticism, it borrows the symbols, characters, tropes...mixes it with LSD or something, and bakes its own story.

As far as I can see, characters like the Iron Fist and the Mandarin don't so much borrow from Eastern Mysticism and gets things mixed up...so much as they read like someone who got their Eastern Mysticism from fortune cookies, cultural parades and maybe a single Hong Kong action flick. In other words, they actually haven't studied jack-squat about any Eastern Mysticism and are just basing it off of common cultural stereotypes...because that is precisely the level knowledge the writers seem to have.

At least the writers of Evangelion had to actually read a book or two about Kabbalah, Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism and UFOlogy before putting them in a blender.

[Dragonus45]

Neon Genesis Evangelion butchers the Kabbalah and mixes it with the Dead Sea Scrolls Apocalypses in ways that make absolute no sense, and takes a completely absurd and mixed-up take on Genesis....okay that criticism sounds silly even as I make it.

The difference is that Evangelion mostly focuses on the obscure Western Mysticism, it borrows the symbols, characters, tropes...mixes it with LSD or something, and bakes its own story.

As far as I can see, characters like the Iron Fist and the Mandarin don't so much borrow from Eastern Mysticism and gets things mixed up...so much as they read like someone who got their Eastern Mysticism from fortune cookies, cultural parades and maybe a single Hong Kong action flick. In other words, they actually haven't studied jack-squat about any Eastern Mysticism and are just basing it off of common cultural stereotypes...because that is precisely the level knowledge the writers seem to have.

At least the writers of Evangelion had to actually read a book or two about Kabbalah, Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism and UFOlogy before putting them in a blender.

Well to quote Hideaki Anno "I am not familiar with many things in Christianity."
So the difference to me seems like one of them borrowed from western culture and used it for window dressing and the other borrowed from eastern culture and used it for window dressing and the latter bad for no real reasons other than westerners imperialism rah rah whatever.

[Orrmundur]

The Rand family has been comics-version rich since before the Civil War. WASP is pretty much baked into that factoid.

Honestly, the character scans better as an ex-pat coming home to a country that may no longer be the one he remembers/was told about. Which is also a 70s thing.

I don't have any Iron Fist comics on hand, but I'm also fairly certain that Danny being a Privileged White Guy has become a plot point on more than one occasion. The well-meaning but kind of clueless rich kid that wants to help those less fortunate but maybe doesn't realise that he can never really understand what they're going through. You know the type. That's not to say it couldn't work with an Asian actor if you just leaned into the "rich" part part of the "rich white guy" archetype instead. There have been way more drastic alterations from comic to film in the MCU.

I really do wish they'd cast a Asian for Doctor Strange, though, since the original Ditko comics were very much supposed to be about Eastern mysticism rather than any other kind of magic. I'm even fairly certain Strange was originally meant to be Asian in the first few issues, before he was given a backstory. Ditko started drawing his face differently after that.

Spoiler: Original look for Doctor Strange

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[Reddish Mage]

Well to quote Hideaki Anno "I am not familiar with many things in Christianity."
So the difference to me seems like one of them borrowed from western culture and used it for window dressing and the other borrowed from eastern culture and used it for window dressing and the latter bad for no real reasons other than westerners imperialism rah rah whatever.

Here I was hoping to hear "Iron Fist isn't as bad as you say it is! It takes from all these Tibetan, Indian and Chinese texts!" ... you know like Neon Genesis Evangelion required at least a passing interest in Western Mysticism and Religion.

But no, Iron Fist, Mandarin and probably some other Chinese-inspired characters I can't think of off hand, are not based off even the most casual acquaintance with things like Daoism, I-Ching, Feng Shui, Chen Buddhism or even the Shaolin Temple.

No, a name like "Mandarin" is about as Chinese as a Fortune Cookie or Chop Suey, and that's as deep as these characters go.

[huttj509]

I don't have any Iron Fist comics on hand, but I'm also fairly certain that Danny being a Privileged White Guy has become a plot point on more than one occasion. The well-meaning but kind of clueless rich kid that wants to help those less fortunate but maybe doesn't realise that he can never really understand what they're going through. You know the type. That's not to say it couldn't work with an Asian actor if you just leaned into the "rich" part part of the "rich white guy" archetype instead. There have been way more drastic alterations from comic to film in the MCU.

I really do wish they'd cast a Asian for Doctor Strange, though, since the original Ditko comics were very much supposed to be about Eastern mysticism rather than any other kind of magic. I'm even fairly certain Strange was originally meant to be Asian in the first few issues, before he was given a backstory. Ditko started drawing his face differently after that.

Spoiler: Original look for Doctor Strange

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I wonder if Ditko couldn't draw eyes that day.

[Dragonus45]

Here I was hoping to hear "Iron Fist isn't as bad as you say it is! It takes from all these Tibetan, Indian and Chinese texts!" ... you know like Neon Genesis Evangelion required at least a passing interest in Western Mysticism and Religion

Why would I say that, my entire point here is that there is nothing wrong with using a culture as background. Nothing at all. Also you keep defending NGE even though it to sounds like someone heard a few terms and decided to start chucking them in. But somehow that is ok because unlike us ignorant western imperialists they clearly studied the thing that a quote from them says they did not.

[Kitten Champion]

I've no objection to a played-straight Danny Rand, Mostly because the best part of the character from my experience is the way he plays off of Luke Cage, and I don't think that dynamic would be quite the same with a non-White actor. In this context in particularly it's the sort of cultural baggage a White Male 1%-er brings to this which makes him a potentially interesting addition to the eventual ensemble cast of The Defenders.

Also, the "clueless westerner goes off to learn eastern mysticism"-type story has the same issues whatever the visible race of the actor is, making him Asian is simply embracing another stereotype.

[Joran]

I wonder if Ditko couldn't draw eyes that day.

I recognize that look; it's someone really near-sighted who forgot his glasses.

I've no objection to a played-straight Danny Rand, Mostly because the best part of the character from my experience is the way he plays off of Luke Cage, and I don't think that dynamic would be quite the same with a non-White actor. In this context in particularly it's the sort of cultural baggage a White Male 1%-er brings to this which makes him a potentially interesting addition to the eventual ensemble cast of The Defenders.

Also, the "clueless westerner goes off to learn eastern mysticism"-type story has the same issues whatever the visible race of the actor is, making him Asian is simply embracing another stereotype.

I thought "clueless Westerner goes off to learn Eastern mysticism" was done really well in The Forbidden Kingdom. There are ways to make it work and hopefully they figure out a way to make it feel fresh. The MCU stuff on Netflix has been good so far, so here's hoping.

[Reddish Mage]

Why would I say that, my entire point here is that there is nothing wrong with using a culture as background. Nothing at all. Also you keep defending NGE even though it to sounds like someone heard a few terms and decided to start chucking them in. But somehow that is ok because unlike us ignorant western imperialists they clearly studied the thing that a quote from them says they did not.

Using a culture as background is one thing, butchering it is another, and working off of entirely ignorant stereotypes created wholecloth as an extension of your own cultural myths about another place a third.

I am saying that only Marvel has done the third with their depiction of Chinese mysticism. It reads like they got their ideas by watching media like old Loony Tunes and the like. That's one step from depicting Africans as Cannibal spear throwers that only say "Ooga-Booga."

I thought "clueless Westerner goes off to learn Eastern mysticism" was done really well in The Forbidden Kingdom. There are ways to make it work and hopefully they figure out a way to make it feel fresh. The MCU stuff on Netflix has been good so far, so here's hoping.

Forbidden Kingdom actually is a work that cares about the locale, it's rich cultural history and aesthetic, and isn't afraid to have fun with it.

I don't know what you are talking about the MCU stuff on Netflix, other than just Season 2 of Daredevil, and that is no Forbidden Kingdom but is still leagues better than the sort of treatment of the early comics.

[Joran]

I don't know what you are talking about the MCU stuff on Netflix, other than just Season 2 of Daredevil, and that is no Forbidden Kingdom but is still leagues better than the sort of treatment of the early comics.

That was just a general statement that Daredevil Season 1 and 2 and Jessica Jones have been good, I enjoyed them, and I hope the quality continues.

[Kitten Champion]

Using a culture as background is one thing, butchering it is another, and working off of entirely ignorant stereotypes created wholecloth as an extension of your own cultural myths about another place a third.

I am saying that only Marvel has done the third with their depiction of Chinese mysticism. It reads like they got their ideas by watching media like old Loony Tunes and the like. That's one step from depicting Africans as Cannibal spear throwers that only say "Ooga-Booga."

They're not that bad, but Marvel writers were just cashing in on the wave of 70's martial arts movies as much as Luke Cage was built on the blaxploitation craze -- and it really shows in their early execution.

Not sure why this is an issue. Aside from self-aware references, it's not like they still approach the characters or their milieu that way.

[comicshorse]

I've no objection to a played-straight Danny Rand, Mostly because the best part of the character from my experience is the way he plays off of Luke Cage, and I don't think that dynamic would be quite the same with a non-White actor. In this context in particularly it's the sort of cultural baggage a White Male 1%-er brings to this which makes him a potentially interesting addition to the eventual ensemble cast of The Defenders.

Also, the "clueless westerner goes off to learn eastern mysticism"-type story has the same issues whatever the visible race of the actor is, making him Asian is simply embracing another stereotype.

Unless the origin's story changed ( and this is comics we're talking about) Danny is 9 when he's dragged off by his father to find K'un L'un. He has no choice whatsoever

[BlueHerring]

Unless the origin's story changed ( and this is comics we're talking about) Danny is 9 when he's dragged off by his father to find K'un L'un. He has no choice whatsoever

Immortal Iron Fist gives this some context. His father goes to find KL because he knows that Danny is destined to be the next Iron Fist.

Also, Westerners seriously screw with the power dynamic in K'un L'un, which are ultimately responsible for the events of the series.