Erfworld 62 - Page 56

[Aerysil]

Playing into Parson's hands?

Or did Parson underestimate Ansom's ability to strategerize...

Tune in next time!

[Ganurath]

Playing into Parson's hands?

Or did Parson underestimate Ansom's ability to strategerize...

Tune in next time!

...You just grossly insulted Parson if you honestly thought he wouldn't consider the possibility of his enemies going around an immobile target.

[Himeo]

Here's my 2 cents.

Ansom has just shown that he is competent by scouting before he moved. Given this, we must assume a few things about his plan. One, he is confident he can beat 3 full "dwagons", and two dozen weakened "dwagons" in the same turn. Two, if there is a trap in the center Ansom will scout it before he moves his assault to the middle hex. Three, he is confident that either his assault force can defeat two dozen full "dwagons" next turn or he has enough anti-air units in his column to justify the costs of losing his assault force and opening his column to what will almost certainly be two dozen "dwagons" aiming for his precious siege.

I don't think Ansom is suicidal. If he is going to attack the middle Hex himself, I have to assume he either plans to get the hell out of dodge after the first round, or he thinks his assault can hold out against two dozen full "dwagons" after beating the first wave.

Spiffy. Personally, I'm the type of person that likes to win battles and also lose the fewest units possible. If I were in Parson's shoes I would try to exploit the fact that Ansom doesn't have sufficient CCC or intel and disperse my "dwagons" as soon as Ansom commits to the attack. Why? Because there is no better defense then denying your opponent the ability to attack you.

Parson forced Ansom to attack a specific hex in his turn. Ansom showed some wisdom by spending scouts to know where his enemy was. He now has six scouts less than he had at the start of the turn.

It's like submarine warfare. Ansom can "ping" one stack of your units at a given time but he only has a limited number of "pings". Who says you have to stay there? Slip into the darkness and attack with impunity.

So, if I were Parson I would wait for Ansom to move then I would disperse my units into three "attack" stacks, three or more "refuel" stacks, and use the rest to seek and destroy the remaining scout units; coincidently, I now know exactly which units are scouts. I would pair an "attack" stack with one or more "refuel" stacks and send one combined stack forward to destroy the siege in the front of the column, and two combined stacks to the rear of the column. The remaining "scout killers" would roam freely doing their thing.

Within two turns I would expect to have destroyed all of Ansoms siege, scouts, and any warlords along the way while losing a few units.

[Aerysil]

Just letting the story tell the story, is all.

[BFJT]

I do have to agree that the arkenpliers could put a monkey wrench into the gears due to the "uncroaked" comment.

From the explanation from Vinny and Ansom they ether loose some with a counter assault, or loose lots with staying defensive (unless there is a surprise waiting ). Which means that Parson looses some when they counter assault or none, again, if they staying defensive...SO...parson being the intelligent guy he is, most likely knows that Team "Good guys" only have one option...thus if they have one option, then Parson can lay down a solid trap for them. I think we have to remember that Ansom doesn't know about Parson yet, so he still thinks this is stupid Stanley making these orders. He still refers to them as Stanley's troops. Much like chess you need to bait opponents to make the moves YOU want them to make and in my head, I would bet my life savings on Parson in a chess match...not Ansom.

...is it just me, or does the shot in panel 3 look a little too close to be the "real" spot where parson put the dwagons. Didn't he say he was going to advance them and retreat them to their move...which meant half the points there half the points back? I do believe the F.o.W. near Ansom's arm (in my opinion) means that the hexes probably go on for a while back there with forest as the terrain. I am hoping that Parson has some fresh dwagons protecting the rear and/or more copies of the hex that we see there.

I think Parson not only has troops hiding in around the hexes we see but he also has them between the gwiffins and the column. Picture the re-enforcements that Ansom was expecting to back up his wood creatures aren't coming, because they were ambushed too. I think this because that is the "trap" he laid for Ansom before but Vinny stooped him from going. Just my opinion.

I do really hope SOMETHING is in the center of the stacks. I mean it would be great if there was nothing and Ansom gets pwned. But I think it would be MUCH more exciting to see them punch through and find something unstoppable. I can just see the comic now...the weakened collective forces finish off the last dwagon. Their wounds still fresh move forward to finish off the "wounded" dwagons only to see the 6 new fresh green dwagons (red breath fire = bad for wood) burst out of the hidden underbrush. ha ha pwned.


P.S. sorry for the length, lot of questions/opinions today

[SteveMB]

Spiffy. Personally, I'm the type of person that likes to win battles and also lose the fewest units possible. If I were in Parson's shoes I would try to exploit the fact that Ansom doesn't have sufficient CCC or intel and disperse my "dwagons" as soon as Ansom commits to the attack.

Again, the dwagons can't move to another hex during Ansom's turn.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Just for the sake of numbering them.

Near hex (6)
1 red, 1 blue, 1 brown, 1 pink, 1 yellow and 1 green

Near right hex (5)
2 yellows, 1 red, 1 pink and 1 blue

Near left hex (5)
2 yellows, 1 red, 1 purple and 1 pink

Far right hex (4)
1 green, 1 yellow, 1 blue and 1 brown

Far left hex (4)
2 blues, 1 brown and 1 yellow

Far hex (3)
1 pink, 1 purple and 1 yellow


Thus, the 27 B-dwagons are:

8 yellow
5 blue
4 pink
3 red
3 brown
2 green
2 purple

[DCR]

Ansom's about to lose his forest-capible units. This leaves Parson free to continue his hide in the forest tactic until some air cover arrives; I'm guessing one extra turn of hit and run. IF there is something other than 20 heavily wounded dragons and 3 uncroaked warloards in the middle hex.

But Ansom's about to lose a rather key protective element from his forces, or I miss my guess.

[Scientivore]

Two, if there is a trap in the center Ansom will scout it before he moves his assault to the middle hex.

That won't do him much good if it's exactly the right number of dwagons and Vinny's bats can't see unit stats.

[Ygrane]

I think the uncroaked warlords and wounded A dragons are hiding

Spoiler

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in the party platter, on one of the front 3 stacks that have already been attacked by a bat.

[DCR]

I think the uncroaked warlords and wounded A dragons are hiding

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in the party platter, on one of the front 3 stacks that have already been attacked by a bat.

Vinny sez he lost 6. At least, that's how I take it. So he's probed (attacked) the entire circle, and I'm fairly certain that means he's seen everything there is to see in those hexes, as non-warlorded stacks have to attack.

[Himeo]

That won't do him much good if it's exactly the right number of dwagons and Vinny's bats can't see unit stats.

It will allow him to attack one of the other stacks before the rest crash on him. More importantly it will give Ansom a chance for escape even if his assault force is crushed.

Again, the dwagons can't move to another hex during Ansom's turn.

I'm not sure, but AFAIK turns = days. Combat probably occurs in rounds during a turn, but as long as the units have move then they should be able to disperse. And if so, then since Ansom has already "pinged" them, they could be on round atm and do so now before the assault moves in.

But I'm wrong, right?

[CommandNC]

Question is this - does the bat see all the stats (mainly thinking HP) of the dwagons on the hex it scouts? If not, then yes, Parson could mix wounded A dwagons into the outer ring and have a full score of fresh B dwagons in central hex. That would be just too evil though.

Lets do the math with this assumption in mind. 27 dwagons in the outer ring. 19 of them are wounded A dwagons. In that case there are a grand total of 8 non wounded B dwagons in the outer ring. 3 are commited to the 'weak' hex. So that leaves 5 total into the other 5 hexes, or one per hex. This is really gambled because if Ansom understands that central hex is a trap, he can easily wipe out all of outer ring.

Of course no one says that Parson couldn't put only ~10 fresh B dwagons in the central hex and pull the other wounded A dwagons away from the fortified position. That would leave 3 fresh B dwagons per outer hex, which should be sufficient to repel any attack.

I really think the bats should know the current hp of the scouted dwagons however, which would make this plan unworkable. Otherwise the non lookamancer setup is just ... too blind.

[erewhon]

I think the uncroaked warlords and wounded A dragons are hiding

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in the party platter, on one of the front 3 stacks that have already been attacked by a bat.

I think the three uncroaked warlords and the A dwagons are hiding

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in all three of the strong "front" hexes. One warlord and 5 or six MORE dwagons in each stack, witht he warlords forcing non-engagement to the scouts. Thus, the bats did not see the warlord stacks.

Since all those units are in the same hex, it takes no move to re-form them at will. I bet the center hex is empty. If Ansom punches intot he center hex, he now faces a freaking WALL of dwagons to get back out.

At a minimum, Ansom is losing most/all of his forest capable units, and Parson can "close the door" behind his central stack and attrit his flyers forever.

Jillian may get dispatched to punch a hole just to get Ansom back out!

Gods, Ansom is toast, because the dwagons have movement supremacy. This is gonna get ugly, folks.

I can't WAIT for the next update! :D

[Ubiq]

I do really hope SOMETHING is in the center of the stacks. I mean it would be great if there was nothing and Ansom gets pwned. But I think it would be MUCH more exciting to see them punch through and find something unstoppable. I can just see the comic now...the weakened collective forces finish off the last dwagon. Their wounds still fresh move forward to finish off the "wounded" dwagons only to see the 6 new fresh green dwagons (red breath fire = bad for wood) burst out of the hidden underbrush. ha ha pwned.

Actually, it would be infinitely worse for Ansom if there isn't anything in the center. Why?

I refer you to the Klog that followed page forty where the following appears:

Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals.

Nothing says that this only occurs on your own turn. So Ansom's troops merely moving into the center hex may well trigger attacks from every dragon in every square surrounding that center hex. If nothing else, it will happen at the beginning of Stanley's next turn as that's a game mechanic. If it happens regardless of whose turn it is, then this could be the exploitable mechanic Parson was looking for as it basically has his most powerful units hammering away on Ansom's forces for three straight turns.

If the center hex is occupied, then the maximum number he could efficiently hit whatever Jetstone units attack the center with is however many dwagons and Warlords he has in that center hex. With the center empty, he can move all of his units, wounded and otherwise, into the surrounding six hexes and attack with all of them with every single stack having at least eight units.

My guess is that Erfworld tactics are stuck in having one stack of eight attack another stack of eight. If that's the case, autoattacking is probably viewed as something to be avoided at all costs without considering the potential benefits of that tactic. So they'll go in expecting to fight eight healthy units and a bunch of injured units at most without ever considering the possibility of having to fight almost fifty dwagons, whether it be in succession or simultaneously.

Also important is the later line:

With a Warlord, the fight can be directed, or the group can choose not to initiate a fight.

Now, if there is a hidden dwagon in that one hex and that dwagon happens to be carrying a Warlord, then Parson can have them withdraw into a surrounding hex right than fight when Ansom shows up. This creates a maxed-out or nearly maxed-out stack next to the original weakest hex and opens up a hex for Ansom's troops to enter the center through.

Depending on how much move Ansom's troops use to reach that center square, Parson can direct his Warlord ... huh, why isn't it Wawlowd? Anyway, at the start of his next turn, he can move dwagons and whoever back into the recently vacated square and totally ring in Ansom's troops that used all of their move to get into the center hex. Those that don't die won't be going anywhere any time soon.

Why settle for the continued harassment of siege units over several turns when you can destroy almost half of the siege and crush his air cover in the space of three turns? If you croak his major air units and a nice chunk of his forest units, then the aerial assaults on his seige can be repeated every turn all of the way to Gobwin Knob. Afterwards, you can move to the nearest forest hex for protection and to wait for the units to heal.

If his dwagons can autoattack during Ansom's turn, so much the better for Parson's plan as it likely saves him a full turn. Forty-six dwagons are probably going to curbstomp just about anything Ansom can throw at them in a single stack, especially if they attack simultaneously. If Parson's setup can finish off the Jetstone incursion on Ansom's turn, then he can continue to harass the main column with his uninjured dwagons for a while longer with literal fear of retaliation.

As far as the Arkenpliers go, well, that might have some effect, but I can't really see why Parson would even try to have his warlords take on Ansom personally. The latter might expect it and that might be the usual way of doing things, but the warlords aren't there to fight; they're there so that Parson can direct his units without them simply killing until they're killed. The fact that they provide whatever unit bonus they can is just a bonus.

[BFJT]

Good call Ubiq, I am still trying to learn all the game mechanics...but isn't it possible that there are warloads in the center. I mean, we are missing some uncroaked ones aren't we?

Doesn't Parson need to get the dwagons back to GK this next turn though? I guess he could battle here and then reteat all the way back depending on the movement.

[Winged One]

Now that I've got that out of my system, I won't join the speculation about the exact form that the trap will take, since I can't think of anything new. Vinnie, however, appears to be a foolamancer in addition to his other talents(ie his only slightly sub-Hamster strategic mind and his ability to get data from his bats without them surviving to report).

[The Old Hack]

Edit: Ah, I think I see now what you were saying. Look closely at the hex closest to the column - one of the dwagons is harder to see as it's brown and blends in a bit, but there's definitely 6 there.

Thank you. Sadly my eyesight is not all it could be, I never noticed.

[Ubiq]

Good call Ubiq, I am still trying to learn all the game mechanics...but isn't it possible that there are warloads in the center. I mean, we are missing some uncroaked ones aren't we?

It's possible, but it wouldn't be optimal. The best use of them is to have them wait somewhere outside of the ring so that he can first bring up reinforcements and then micromanage the battle rather than just having the dwagons autoattack when his turn begins. If his units attack during Ansom's turn, that's all right, but he'll want them for something else when his own turn begins most likely.

As far as the two unaccounted for Warlords... well, we know that he originally planned to send in three, but he might have altered that in light of the fact that Ansom has to rely on scouts. So he might all five of them out there. Considering that would only leave one hex that had to autoattack when all is said and done, that might not be a bad option... though I think forcing his units to autoattack would be the best choice here, counterintuitive though it may be.

He could always have one of them hidden in the "weak" hex so he could withdraw them into a neighboring stack.

[factotum]

I have to wonder about the comment that Jillian's Peeps and the Archons are the only flying units with enough move to reach that central hex. Is that going to turn out to be important? It could well be that they are going to have to pull Ansom's fat out of the fire when he walks into the trap. This would have the effect of removing any doubts about Jillian's loyalty, of course, which might well play into Wanda's hands...

As for everyone saying it's a trap, well, that's a no-brainer. The A-dwagons Parson used for the attack had 56 move--unless he was moving them from a LONG way off there was simply no need to park them that close to the column. (Unless the column is 50 hexes long, which I suppose is possible...).

[Mr White]

Hmm this could be the battle of Cannae all over again. Baiting the enemy with a weak center to get themselves surrounded.

This comic also shows that Ansom does have a good grasp of strategy and tactics. He's just facing an opponent who uses a new way of thinking while he's stuck in the traditional way of warfare.

[tomaO2]

An additional thought.

Warlords have selective attacks. Could Ansom not then simply lead a stack (which can be any size, even if it's usually 8) past the guarding dwagons and attack the hex directly? Or is it impossible to go past a hex until all enemy units are defeated? If you can't, then you'd just have to set up a defensive formation to guard the remaining siege from the dwagons. I seriously doubt even all the dwagons together could break through Ansom's land army with the high number of units they have.

[Boojum]

So he might all five of them out there. Considering that would only leave one hex that had to autoattack when all is said and done, that might not be a bad option... though I think forcing his units to autoattack would be the best choice here, counterintuitive though it may be.

He could always have one of them hidden in the "weak" hex so he could withdraw them into a neighboring stack.

Hadn't thought of the other two warlords. I do find it interesting that there are 5 "non-weak" hexes in the ring. It could be that the sacrificial stack is the one that lacks the warlord and would be left to autoattack (since it'd presumably be fighting to the death anyway) With all five of the other hexes in the ring having warlords, it's possible that each one could have the full mix of A and B dwagons, all under warlord control. Then the center could be left empty and the bats would have seen exactly what Parson wanted them to see.

Whatever Parson's done though, I can't way to see how the "dwagon gambit accepted" line plays out!

[ryos]

An additional thought.

Warlords have selective attacks. Could Ansom not then simply lead a stack (which can be any size, even if it's usually 8) past the guarding dwagons and attack the hex directly? Or is it impossible to go past a hex until all enemy units are defeated? If you can't, then you'd just have to set up a defensive formation to guard the remaining siege from the dwagons. I seriously doubt even all the dwagons together could break through Ansom's land army with the high number of units they have.

Well, flying units at least seem free to move at will. Otherwise it would have been quite difficult (read: impossible) to selectively pick the siege from its various positions within the column.

Land units may be a different story. However, I think this is one point in which Erfworld behaves intuitively, in that units with move operate under the same spatial constraints that you'd expect. Or, in other words, you're free to move on to the next hex, as long as you can get past the Dwagons in the way. Slipping by those fat beasts (who must auto-attack, mind) is a difficult proposition for an army of any great size, especially if they want to remain strong once they reach their destination.

[Mystyco]

well, the one who's attacking may want to evade fight, while non-warlord-guided dwagons cannot choice, and still need to engage

it may be that wounded A-Dwagons with warlords already returned to the capital, or are on theyr way.

they may also be in the near part of the forest, making a surgical-warlord-removal or even a superior carnage of forest-capable and flyers units a good thing to look at :P

still, i think that making 3 dwagons croak may get stanley quite angry, we'll se saturady for that

[Zeku]

Another question is whether an attack into a unscouted hex is also a move command.

Edit: Sorry my text didn't format properly

If it's empty, Parson took a big risk assuming that Ansom would scout, only scout in the immediate area, and figure out that a good place to hide the injured dwagons would be in the middle hex. Ansom specifically states that he doesn't know whether the withdrawn dwagons had low remaining move.

[Scientivore]

An additional thought.

Warlords have selective attacks. Could Ansom not then simply lead a stack (which can be any size, even if it's usually 8) past the guarding dwagons and attack the hex directly? Or is it impossible to go past a hex until all enemy units are defeated? If you can't, then you'd just have to set up a defensive formation to guard the remaining siege from the dwagons. I seriously doubt even all the dwagons together could break through Ansom's land army with the high number of units they have.

Parson's tactic worked so well because Ansom's air support was gone. Ansom won't be able to slip past the outer dwagons without a fight because they're fliers. From Klog #6:

Flying stacks with a commander may selectively engage non-fliers on their own turn (exception: enemy archery units may attack you if you are on their space...avoid!)

[Beren One-Hand]

If it's empty, Parson took a big risk assuming that Ansom would scout, only scout in the immediate area, and figure out that a good place to hide the injured dwagons would be in the middle hex. Ansom specifically states that he doesn't know whether the withdrawn dwagons had low remaining move.

Parson didn't take any risk that Ansom would scout... he had to scout to find see what was going on around him. So he sent out his bats and he finds a Dwagon infested forest hex... and then he found 5 more completing the circle.

Once he found this setup, it makes perfect sense that they are guarding something - otherwise they wouldn't be sitting right there on the edge of his column.

I don't think Ansom will be sending a bat into the middle hex before he commits his troops, since he already thinks he knows where the dwagons are. He sent out the scouts first to locate them, he found dwagons, he knows they cannot move, why waste your scouts move to double check the enemy's position?

[teratorn]

I expect Parson to keep some dwagons in the center hex to make sure Ansom forces enter there.

Move is the issue here, as soon as Ansom sees it's a trap he will try to leave the center hex. It's too much of a coincidence if they have just the exact move. Unless the best combat units need to be carried and have very little move on their own, and once inside the forest they have to move unhelped. There needs to be a reason for them to remain there.

[Zelig the Liar]

I love this page, and the last page has me all excited. Parson's "for an opener" absolutely slew me, and his expression gave me chills. Was it just me that heard 'DUN Dun dunnn' when he said that?

What I'M most excited about is more information about what SIGHT rules are like. The fog of war gives us a lot of detail on how those rules work, and a bit more insight into how Vinnie's bats work too.

There's a lot of cleared hexes that don't look like 'heavy forest', so is it possible units can see a few hexes around them, except into heavy forest? (unless they really used bats to scout THAT much around the column) But there are very few heavy forest hexes revealed, and around the party platter (as it's been dubbed) there are only the barest minimum heavy forest hexes revealed to probe the formation.

IMPORTANT to note is that Vin's bats had to move past, and thus come into contact with, hexes that included dwagons. SO, that must mean that Vinnie's direct control of the bats counts as a warlord, and he could make them avoid engagement until he got to the hexes he wanted to probe. ALSO important is that there are hexes adjacent to the path Vin's bats had to take that are still under fog, so they apparently couldn't see into those hexes (presumably heavy forest) w/o entering them.

The bit about Vinnie's control leads me to ask again, just how much control could Vinnie exert over a stack that his bats are a part of? Remember, when they found out about the attacks and Vinnie was skeptical about their victories he anguished over not having left any bats in the column, as if it would have altered the outcome.