Erfworld 62 - Page 56

[Vatharian]

Hey, we have already seen eye view of a bat. It can't see unit stats. This indicates, that these 3 dwagons are being presumed to be wounded by Ansom's council. Vinnie can see what the bats can see, but it's like camera - you can't get more from the image than it's recorded onto the carrying media. About the center hex... Well, idea, that this is a trap doesn't speak for me. I think it's more like Ansom's forces will be spreaded in the forests, while column will be without cover. Dwagons next turn (either these that escape this attack or another pack, if there is any - 27 dwagons that Vinnie can see, it's full B group. A's missing) can easly obliterate anything they want in the column, and they can either hide on the other side of column, which it will make Ansom's forces to move to the other side of column, leaving with little move again, and next turn B dwagons can again bash the column. Dwagons are powerful enough to take down most of attacking them force, if not too many at one time. Gah, it leaves countless possibilities, providing the B group survives the attack.

[rosebud]

i think that making 3 dwagons croak may get stanley quite angry, we'll se saturady for that

It depends what he gets back. Stanley lost a blue in Jillian's attack, but he got a choice prize in return that made him happy. If Parson can crack the column or even get the Tool another tool, Stanley will be dancing around a maypole. Stanley may be slower, but he's not stupid.

[Beren One-Hand]

The bit about Vinnie's control leads me to ask again, just how much control could Vinnie exert over a stack that his bats are a part of? Remember, when they found out about the attacks and Vinnie was skeptical about their victories he anguished over not having left any bats in the column, as if it would have altered the outcome.

This could be true...
I read it to mean that with the bats there they'd have known exactly what was happening.

[Vatharian]

Yep, I thought the same. They're said to be like crap in the battle. Maybe Sizemore should take a look at them :D

[Sebastian]

Ansom is taking a gamble. He's going to risk almost everything (all his forest units plus himself) to take out what he believes to be 3 warlords and a large number of weakened dragons. It hasn't even occurred to him that this is a trap, or that any warlords could survive if it wasn't. So he's not planning on retreat, he's planning on a glorious victory (complete with more Ewok victory music, no doubt).

If the dwagons was there it would be worth it, 24 dwagons + 3 warlord + all the B dwagons that he can kill at the next turn before they can croak him (if they do) just the exp alone would be worth the risk.

Of course if, as it look probable, the center hex is empty things would be different, Ansom and (I assume) all his forest unit would be massacrated by 27 full health dwagons the next round, and this mean that without units that can attack them the now healed A dwagons wuld be free to pick on the column as they wish as long as they end their turn into a forest square, until enough flying units to attack them are back to the main column, this mean another round or two to go siege units hunting.

[Scientivore]

IMPORTANT to note is that Vin's bats had to move past, and thus come into contact with, hexes that included dwagons. SO, that must mean that Vinnie's direct control of the bats counts as a warlord, and he could make them avoid engagement until he got to the hexes he wanted to probe. ALSO important is that there are hexes adjacent to the path Vin's bats had to take that are still under fog, so they apparently couldn't see into those hexes (presumably heavy forest) w/o entering them.

It could indicate that "in contact with" (from Klog #4) meant "in the same hex as".

[FredRalphFred]

Ubiq: Your plan is well-thought-out, but unless I've badly misunderstood you, you're forgetting that Stanley CAN NOT swap units among hexes when it's not his turn, warlords or no.

Also, a lot of you seem to think that for some reason, in Erfworld, adjacent units have to auto-attack. I don't think so. I think units have to try to co-exist in the same hex to satisfy the "when in contact" condition from Parson's Klog 4. I've never seen a war game where you can use up your move to get next to a unit and still attack it. (Admittedly, I haven't seen all, or even most, war games. But I've seen a few, mainly Sid Meier-type stuff.)

I think the trick is that Ansom thinks the 27 dwagons (or 24, or however many) are the "used-up" ones when they are really the full-strength B-ones, which Parson didn't strafe with simply because they lacked move, not because they were weak. So they could wind up being even stronger than the ones he used to take out the siege.

Don't forget that without Vinny's bats to scout throughout the column, Ansom might not even know exactly which dwagons hit him.

[Fatmop]

I haven't seen any evidence that the wounded A-dwagons are doing anything other than sticking to Parson's plan so far. The positioning of blank and colored spots on Ansom's map indicates that they do have current recon of all but the blank hexes, and we already know (as Ansom does) that the A-dwagons have little move left. They probably couldn't get farther away than Vinnie could scout.

They might have something else along with the formation in the center hex, but what? It seems like most of Stanley's forces are holed up inside Gobwin Knob, and I can't imagine there are many units with enough move to get out to help the dwagons in just one turn (which is all Parson had).

[tomaO2]

Parson's tactic worked so well because Ansom's air support was gone. Ansom won't be able to slip past the outer dwagons without a fight because they're fliers. From Klog #6:

Ah yes, I should have reread that. Thank you for the reminder. Stupid thought. I Still wonder though if a flier can pass by a hex with non fliers or not. If they can then siege is toast. If not then they can do a guard formation as well.

One of the things I find really different about Erfworld as opposed to most turn strategy games is the unlimited attacks you get. If you can move to a hex you can attack as many units as you want until you die. You don't Even seem to take a movement penalty for each attack. But you have to be IN the same hex as the opponent is. So suggestions that once everyone one is in the middle hex, all the surrounding hexes would attack is not doable. IT's clearly seen that the bats were only one hex away (do to the other hexes having the fog of war) while they moved around and the dwagons could not to a distance attack on them.

I also think this is most of the column too on the map and it doesn't keep spreading forever.. I think the flag units indicate the beginning and the end of it. With some extra units just watching out on the front and back.

Another detail. Pay attention to the colors. We know there is at least one black dwagon (due the earlier scene when the dwagons took out the first scout bat) but none of the guarding dwagons are black.

[factotum]

I haven't seen any evidence that the wounded A-dwagons are doing anything other than sticking to Parson's plan so far.

The main evidence comes from Parson himself. When Wanda informed him that Ansom had to scout to find information, rather than having a Lookamancy table, he said that changed everything. Also, at the end of last strip, he implied that destroying half Ansom's siege wasn't all he'd done to him--that suggests he has a plan for Ansom's turn that does NOT turn out well for the Prince!

[Wings]

If Parson's got 5 warlords out there, 1 with each of the "non-weak" stacks, then he can hit whatever's in the middle on his turn, withdraw once a dwagon gets too injured, then move the injured dragons only away, and attack again, with almost as much force, without risking taking casualties.

Because he'd be attacking from so close, he could keep attacking until the dwagons had only a few hits each, and anything left there wouldn't be able to stand up to that. All he'd have to be careful about would be having enough move to return to GN.

I have to say, however, that to justify losing three dwagons, he'd have to kill at least 75 units, ideally stronger ones, or he will have technically worsened his position due to the relative numbers of units each side has. He has to weight the loss of his units as far more significant than those of his enemy...

[Aris Katsaris]

The biggest clue that he's planning a trap is that Parson's previous plan mentioned stacks of 5 and 4 dragons protecting the central square -- but now we see that he's intentionally strengthened one side with 6 dragons to create a weakness (a square protected only by 3) in the other.

If that doesn't shout out "bait" I don't know what does.

[TheJustWiseSage]

Thoughly enjoying the comic as a whole!

Well, I'm definately in the camp that it's a trap and that the centre hex does not contain the A dwagons and warlords.

What's in there?

Spoiler

Show

However, I suspect that it's not empty, rather it will contain a non flying units with Archery (if that's possible) possibly forest type units as well (where are the elves when you want them).
Parson seemed to fear archery units for his dwagons as they would automatically attack at full strength, so if the centre had loads of archery units and Ansom dived straight in with his flying units ....

[jmsl]

I'm not much of a wargamer, so I'm still a little uncertain. Judging from the current speculation, the center hex is likely empty as a trap to draw in Ansom's strongest forest units. (Or it could be full of full health dwagons if Parson was risky enough to put injured dwagons on the defensive line.) That sounds very nasty, as next turn Parson could hit and run on Ansom's forest units, slowly wiping them out while withdrawing injured dwagons, leaving Parson with very little danger from ground troops besides archers.

What I'm not sure about is how Ansom and company plan to survive even if they wipe out 2 dozen injured dwagons in the center of the platter? There are 27 presumably full strength dwagons surrounding them that would be able to attack them next turn, and they would be injured until their turn, right?
That would have to be an incredibly strong attack group. That makes me wonder if Parson might not instead ignore the group and finish wiping out the siege instead? Why attack your enemy's strength (except for the later possibility of being safe in twees)?

*chomps on gummi bears while writing this in honor of the meanie dwagons*

[Vatharian]

Id like t point out, that Parsons doesn't have time to actually bite the column turn after turn. Main force is only 2 or 3 turns away from gobwin, so he has probably another plan. Losing three dwagons may be nothing if he manages to croack every attack-flying-capable unit, before column leaves the trees. Drawing the war council into battle may be also one of the levels of his plan. I suspect, he KNOWS, where they currently are.

Either way, remember, that marbits will go to the tunnels instantly, so too much fooling with dwagons and we loose focus on the main battle. No matter how powerful dwagons are, there's only like 50 of them. they can't wipe like 10'000 units. (...400 living man... 25:1...). I think Parson is going to blow up or make the tunnels fall, and then make some raids.

From what I have understood, air superiority doesn't count on open terrain, where fliers can be attacked by every unit. So dwagons are only a temporary tool

[FredRalphFred]

. . . Judging from the current speculation, . . . it could be full of full health dwagons if Parson was risky enough to put injured dwagons on the defensive line . . .

That's exactly what I think he's done -- spent dwagons (A group) "guarding" the fresh dwagons (B group).

. . . What I'm not sure about is how Ansom and company plan to survive even if they wipe out 2 dozen injured dwagons in the center of the platter? There are 27 presumably full strength dwagons surrounding them that would be able to attack them next turn, and they would be injured until their turn, right? . . .

I think Ansom's thought is that if he does nothing, it's worse than doing something, and that it's worth risking those units to take out almost half (and the fast almost-half at that) of Stanley's main air force.

[Scientivore]

What I'm not sure about is how Ansom and company plan to survive even if they wipe out 2 dozen injured dwagons in the center of the platter? There are 27 presumably full strength dwagons surrounding them that would be able to attack them next turn, and they would be injured until their turn, right?
That would have to be an incredibly strong attack group. That makes me wonder if Parson might not instead ignore the group and finish wiping out the siege instead? Why attack your enemy's strength (except for the later possibility of being safe in twees)?

That's an excellent point. Perhaps they don't intend to survive.

On page 21, Ansom said that he'd rather face Stanley's forces in the open before they reach GK than pry them out of GK's defenses. On page 22, he says that they have four times the army they need to take GK. If GK is outnumbered 25:1 (as Wanda implies* to Parson when he's summoned), then Ansom is apparently expecting some massive casualties at a disfavorable ratio of 6:1 or worse. So, if Ansom can croak 22 dwagons and 3 warlords for a price any lower than 150 units, then he improves the situation beyond the expectations that he set for his allies.

* Parson's recent briefing-by-rhetorical-question is a case of "turnabout is fair play".

[slayerx]

Something doesn't quite add up to me, something we may not be seeing... Ansom is about to enter the base hex to attack the dwagons... the question however, is he planning to remain in that spot or is he planning to use the remainder of his move to get out of there? Afterall, Ansom should be able to realize that if he can't move out of the base hex, he will be swamped by 5 stacks of dwagons next turn. So, does Ansom actually have the movement to make it both in and out of the base to get some distance to get some support from the column (even though he is low on movement)? Or is he planning on waiting in that Base Hex and having Vinnie or someone keep the other dwagons from attacking him? Or is Ansom planning on sacrifising the troops and himself in order to kill the dwagons and warlords?

From what i can tell it may be the former... but if it is as poeple guess and the base hex is empty and Ansom is confident that he can take the base Hex and then retreat to a safe range of being attacked by those dwagons, then that means he won't be trapped in that center hex and he will be leaving before the end of his turn... but ofcourse for the trap to work Ansom has to remain in that base hex so that he can be attacked from all sides... Question is though, If Ansom has enough move to start leaving the base hex, than how is Parson planning on keeping him and his troops within?

this whole thing screams trap, but there's a just a few things that i'm not quite seeing yet. and perhaps will see in the next comic or so...

Unfortunatly, i think we'll have to wait atleast a week to find out exactly what Parson is doing with this set up... we'll probably have atleast one comic of ansom's counter attack on those 3 dwagons, and then the second one will end with Parson springing his trap whatever it maybe... but that's atleast... could be one or two comics longer than that

On page 21, Ansom said that he'd rather face Stanley's forces in the open before they reach GK than pry them out of GK's defenses. On page 22, he says that they have four times the army they need to take GK. If GK is outnumbered 25:1 (as Wanda implies* to Parson when he's summoned), then Ansom is apparently expecting some massive casualties at a disfavorable ratio of 6:1 or worse. So, if Ansom can croak 19 dwagons and 3 warlords for a price any lower than 132 units, then he improves the situation beyond the expectations that he set for his allies.

Actually, you know have to take into acount the loss of those seige engines.... lossing nearly half of the main force used to attack the walls is sure to make some adjustments to the statistics... it might knock them down to only have 3 times or maybe twice the amount of force to take on Gobwinknob... we can't really know for sure, since we don't know all the details... but i thouhgt i'd throw that in there

[katana2665]

I think I'm leaning toward Ansom's side. That last panel is not the same evil glint that Parson had. And I must assume that dealings with undead in this world is not the same as in the majority of rpg worlds. All the characters just look like plush dolls...great style. It was nice to see the map and how Ansome thinks about battles. I hope that he is more than a match for Parson. My feeling is that the weak hex is a feint..Parson is way to smart to leave nothing to chance.

[Lord Zentei]

This page took me 22 and a half hours to letter. And yes I will do the big map panel as a blowup. Enjoy.

But if you have planned the scenario to a sufficient extent to do that, I can only wonder how much of the mechanics of Erfworld have you planned out...

Will we see a full game rule set at some point?

[ReccaSquirrel]

The circle of B dwagons around the wounded dwagons was when he thought the enemy could use Lookamancy. Things changed when he learned they had to do it the hard way with scouts and hats. We know that the B Dwagons where going to be in a group of around 5 or 6 but one hex had only 3.

Ansom's counterattack plan assumes the center hex has the 2 dozen wounded dragons and the warlords. Going after a hex with only three unwounded dwagons is a clever ploy. Vinnie stated, "That'll eat up about all of our move, boss."

An attempt to get the warlords and dwagons at the center hex that aren't really there accomplishes two things. It wastes the enemies moves. Finding them with lookamancy should be easy and save Stanley's army moves. It also, and hopefully brings all of the units that can attack dwagons into one small area. Then the 2 dozen dwagons that heal can strike and take out hopefully most of that force. And if Ansom ignored the dwagons, he could simply attack the siege again.

So Parson's tactic on Ansom's turn is likely going to claim 6 Bats, some forest units, 5 Gwiffons, and Commander Zamussels. Plus it is going to leave most of the forest units wide open for a strike from unwounded dwagons on Ansom's next turn. The b dwagons will also be adjacent to the attack forces so they can use between 1 to 3 of their move, attack, and be well hidden before Ansom's next turn.

I think the word we want here is p0wned.

[SteveMB]

That's an excellent point. Perhaps they don't intend to survive.

On page 21, Ansom said that he'd rather face Stanley's forces in the open before they reach GK than pry them out of GK's defenses. On page 22, he says that they have four times the army they need to take GK. If GK is outnumbered 25:1 (as Wanda implies* to Parson when he's summoned), then Ansom is apparently expecting some massive casualties at a disfavorable ratio of 6:1 or worse. So, if Ansom can croak 22 dwagons and 3 warlords for a price any lower than 150 units, then he improves the situation beyond the expectations that he set for his allies.

Alternatively, assuming that they don't know that Stanley's intel is fundamentally better than their own*, they may think they have enough move to get out of the sack and hide in the forest.

*I'm pretty confident of that, based on the fact that Jillian's repeated escapes are "somewhat suspicious" rather than "utterly preposterous".

From what i can tell it may be the former... but if it is as poeple guess and the base hex is empty and Ansom is confident that he can take the base Hex and then retreat to a safe range of being attacked by those dwagons, then that means he won't be trapped in that center hex and he will be leaving before the end of his turn... but of course for the trap to work Ansom has to remain in that base hex so that he can be attacked from all sides... Question is though, If Ansom has enough move to start leaving the base hex, than how is Parson planning on keeping him and his troops within?

The trap might be simply to separate Ansom and the various forest-capable uints from the column. Gathered in one place, they may be too strong to attack (even by all the fresh dwagons) without unacceptable casualties -- but if they're off on a fool's errand with insufficient Move to rejoin the column, Parson gets a free shot at the column next turn before bringing the dwagons home.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Something doesn't quite add up to me, something we may not be seeing... Ansom is about to enter the base hex to attack the dwagons... the question however, is he planning to remain in that spot or is he planning to use the remainder of his move to get out of there? Afterall, Ansom should be able to realize that if he can't move out of the base hex, he will be swamped by 5 stacks of dwagons next turn. So, does Ansom actually have the movement to make it both in and out of the base to get some distance to get some support from the column (even though he is low on movement)? Or is he planning on waiting in that Base Hex and having Vinnie or someone keep the other dwagons from attacking him? Or is Ansom planning on sacrifising the troops and himself in order to kill the dwagons and warlords?

From what i can tell it may be the former... but if it is as poeple guess and the base hex is empty and Ansom is confident that he can take the base Hex and then retreat to a safe range of being attacked by those dwagons, then that means he won't be trapped in that center hex and he will be leaving before the end of his turn... but ofcourse for the trap to work Ansom has to remain in that base hex so that he can be attacked from all sides... Question is though, If Ansom has enough move to start leaving the base hex, than how is Parson planning on keeping him and his troops within?

this whole thing screams trap, but there's a just a few things that i'm not quite seeing yet. and perhaps will see in the next comic or so...

Unfortunatly, i think we'll have to wait atleast a week to find out exactly what Parson is doing with this set up... we'll probably have atleast one comic of ansom's counter attack on those 3 dwagons, and then the second one will end with Parson springing his trap whatever it maybe... but that's atleast... could be one or two comics longer than that


Actually, you know have to take into acount the loss of those seige engines.... lossing nearly half of the main force used to attack the walls is sure to make some adjustments to the statistics... it might knock them down to only have 3 times or maybe twice the amount of force to take on Gobwinknob... we can't really know for sure, since we don't know all the details... but i thouhgt i'd throw that in there

The whole thing about it is what happens with the rest of the army. If the units that can attack air focus on the hopeful wounded dwagon while the rest of the army pushes forward, it gives Parson an entire army to strike without risk of damage. If the army stays nearby, it gives Parson the ability to strike and move a great deal of distance away because of the low move count. Regardless, it is looking like a win-win trap.

[ralphmerridew]

Alternatively, assuming that they don't know that Stanley's intel is fundamentally better than their own*, they may think they have enough move to get out of the sack and hide in the forest.

*I'm pretty confident of that, based on the fact that Jillian's repeated escapes are "somewhat suspicious" rather than "utterly preposterous".

They at least know that Lookamancers exist.

[Charles_Bronson]

Incredible comic.

Always surprises me.

keep up the good work.

[Runolfr]

It's a trap!

That's what I think, anyway.

[rosebud]

This page took me 22 and a half hours to letter.

Why does it take so long? Placement/layout?

[Bouldering Jove]

Some of you have mentioned that Ansom's attack seems suicidal without enough remaining move to avoid being massacred by the surrounding dragons.

However, part of Ansom's objective is the warlords. Thanks to klog #4, we know that without warlords, units don't have the option of choosing whether or not to initiate a fight. We also know that warlords can "direct the fight", and grant leadership bonuses. Barring the inevitable trap, if Ansom was able to croak all of the Stanley-aligned warlords on the scene, this would be crippling. Parson would have numerically less effective combatants, would no longer be able to concentrate the dragons' attacks to improve their battle performance, would no longer be able to withdraw any injured ones to prevent them from croaking, and would be forced to fight any Jetsone-allied combatants in the way of the dragons coming home. Factor in the mechanics of gamelike movement and combat, as well; if a single stack of dragons from one surrounding hex moved directly in to attack Ansom at the center hex, the "rules" would probably force them to fight on their own to the completion of the attack. If this is true, then the dragons would all have to take extra move to mass on a single hex before attacking in force, which would eat up the precious move needed for the slower dragons to make it back behind the walls of Gobwin Knob.

In short, if Ansom could take out the warlords and kill two dozen dragons in the process, Parson would be in a very uncomfortable position. At that point, victory against Ansom's attack group would be down to luck and attrition, which would now be an unattractive prospect with two dozen fewer dragons to play with. In such a circumstance, Parson would probably think it smarter to conserve his resources and retreat. Ansom doesn't know he's up against Parson, of course, but no one has yet suggested that this kind of clever sneakiness is out of character for Stanley, who's been consistently shrewd if not brilliant. Stanley also seems to care about losses, whether troops (page 55) or shmuckers (page 6), so Ansom might well have reason to think that if he scores a decisive victory here that the risk of becoming dragon chow is minimal.

[DCR]

Why does it take so long? Placement/layout?

Substandard letter fixative. Every time he'd bump the table the letters'd fall off the page. C&HFTW!

But - that is a looooong time. Lotta talking, tho'. But 4 characters a minute seems pretty slow.

[Monan]

I like the maps. and it seems like they answered a lot of questions, then again set the stage for folks asking other questions. I'm curious if Ansom is being tatical with Jillian and the Gwiffons (as I would assume from his tactical approach to this particular strip) or he is keeping her at safe distance from any potential harm?