Erfworld 62 - Page 56

[Monan]

Uh oh.

I would assume that Parson planned for a strike on the 'weak' hex, but does he know about the Arkenpliers? I can't recall if they've been mentioned or not. If he didn't factor them in, that could be... ugly.

Good thought, but does Ansom have enough move to get to the particular hex to use the Arkenpliers? The pictured example of the Arkenpliers working well on uncroaked units showed Ansom wielding the Arkenpliers in personal combat with uncroaked units. You can probably assume yes since his excitment when saying 3 uncroaked warlords.

[Monan]

Hrm... what's Parson got planned now?
Presumably, he intentionally left that hex appearing weak, while hiding some more dwagons in it to decimate the forest units. (Note that he said Ansom's lack of military intelligence would add a new dimension to the plan.)

Excellent point Ansom et all are assuming the injured Dwagons and the 3 uncroaked warlords are in the middle.

[Zeku]

I'm having trouble thinking of example games, any addition or correction would be nice:

-Must have enough move to overlap enemy to initiate conflict: Civilization
-Must only be adjacent to enemy to initiate conflict: FF Tactics, Advance Wars, Shining Force

-Moving adjacent to an enemy doesn't affect your move: most games
-Moving adjacent to an enemy lowers your remaining move: can't think of one. In Heroes of Might and Magic, "adjacent" status prevents ranged attacks.
-Moving from "adjacent to an enemy" to "adjacent to an enemy" uses up the rest of your move: Master of Magic

-Moving adjacent to an enemy reveals their location: all games

-Moving adjacent to an enemy doesn't force attack: most games
-Moving adjacent to an enemy forces attack: most RTS or MMO

-Moving and attacking may be done in any order, with a usual limitation of one attack and one counterattack: most games

[Wings]

They at least know that Lookamancers exist.

Given the large number of classes of caster, how many people know what all the possible combinations do?

You have up to 3 you can link, and one of them must be a thinkamancer, then there are a huge number of combinations. Given that Wanda seems genuinely impressed by Stanley's decision to link the eyemancers, then it's not an obvious choice, meaning that there must be slightly more than just linking all 3 together and getting an uber map...

[O'Shuva]

Forget the inevitable trap, surely somebody else noticed the pop-culture reference (which is, after all, what Erfworld's all about) in panel 1?

Der dum! Der dum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum!

[Sebastian]

"That'll eat up about all our move, boss."

Feint or not, Ansom and Forest-Capables will be surrounded by dwagons at the start of Stanlie's next turn, completely helpless, and probably still wounded from the initial push through the rear dwagons. It looks like Wanda's dungeon is going to have a new guest, and Stanlie will get his second Arkentool.

Wow, Imagine Stanley's face if that happened. A large nomber of siege units destroyed,the main enemy warlord killed/captured and an arkentools acquired, and all that in his second turn in erfworld.

[SteveMB]

I read it to mean that with the bats there they'd have known exactly what was happening.

That comment also gave me another realization -- since Team Stanley can see exactly where Vinny's bats went, they know just where Ansom is probing and more or less exactly what he was able to discover. Thus, they now know that Ansom has found the bait (albeit too late to shift deployment if he doesn't take it or he reaches for it in an unexpected way).

[teratorn]

Having the wounded dwagons in the circle and fresh ones in the middle would be dangerous. Ansom gets crushed in the middle but he can ask Jillian to engage the outside circle. A few Gwiffons and 3 archons against 5 or 6 heavily wounded dwagons could cause a lot of damage. The wounded dwagons are elsewhere, probably out of reach even to Jillian. Or maybe they can stay undercover when with warlords.

We have no idea on how time works in Erfworld. For example, can Ansom deploy reinforcements after the first units have checked the target, or do they need to start moving now? Same for Jillian. If Ansom asks her to move later will she be able to join the forces at the forest?

[darkgolem]

Spoiler

Show

Can there be two stacks in one hex, one led by a warlord, one not? If a scout is sent to a hex, and then the unled stack attacks the scout, and the led stack does not attack, will the scout see the led stack. Is it possible that the led stack will not be noticed.

The warlord led stacks could be on the outer walls, of the "fort" not attacking, with a unled stack next to them attacking. The counts bats scout, see the unled stacks but not the led stacks. Then they enter the center, find it empty, and get smacked the next turn.

[theterran]

Forget the inevitable trap, surely somebody else noticed the pop-culture reference (which is, after all, what Erfworld's all about) in panel 1?

Der dum! Der dum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum!

Reminds me of a scene in The Empire Strikes Back

[SteveMB]

Can there be two stacks in one hex, one led by a warlord, one not?

(de-spoilered because I've stripped the quote down to the basic informational question)

It's been established that, yes, there can be multiple stacks in the same hex:

"Okay, near hex, second stack is where we start."

That being the case, I can't see why the two stacks couldn't be one with warlord and one without warlord.

Forget the inevitable trap, surely somebody else noticed the pop-culture reference (which is, after all, what Erfworld's all about) in panel 1?

Der dum! Der dum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum!

"We're gonna need a bigger bat...."

[katana2665]

Substandard letter fixative. Every time he'd bump the table the letters'd fall off the page. C&HFTW!

But - that is a looooong time. Lotta talking, tho'. But 4 characters a minute seems pretty slow.

Not really. It's a grand undertaking. It also depends on his workflow. Pro penciler's will tell you that a page a day is the norm. As for writers, if you are Casey or Strazynksky then putting out alot of dialogue is common, but inking a page of letters is not the same as writing it.

[SteveMB]

Not really. It's a grand undertaking. It also depends on his workflow. Pro penciler's will tell you that a page a day is the norm. As for writers, if you are Casey or Strazynksky then putting out alot of dialogue is common, but inking a page of letters is not the same as writing it.

I'm reminded of John Kovalic's story about writing a boopload of dialogue that had to be fitted into one page of superhero-battle action in the first issue of Dr. Blink: Superhero Shrink. He was rewarded with a needlepoint bearing the inspiring message: "DAMN YOU, JOHN".

In the trade paperback, the scene was expanded to three pages (an establishing full-page splash and two pages for the battle proper).

[BFJT]

surely somebody else noticed the pop-culture reference in panel 1? Der dum! Der dum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum! Derdum!

No I didn't but now that is all I can see haha that is a good catch. My pop culture reference hat off to you

[BFJT]

"We're gonna need a bigger bat...."

I don't know if I would fear or hope for a Erfworld "Quint" character. Good quote though. haha.

[jindra34]

I see two cases:
1. The center is an empty vaccuole, its not very spectacular but it does save dwagons.
2.The center is full of 24 B dwagons and 13 A dwagons and the three warlords. Meat grinder situation as Pardon would have planned for the run-around. Spectacular damage to Ansom but costs units.

Honestly i do not see how Parson, being a proven tactical adept, could have planned it any other ways.

[Vatharian]

Hey knowing, that multiple stacks can occupy one hex... all other dwagons are in the center hex. Surprise! Heh, Kiss your mega-damage after entering the hex. I suppose, that unit entering enemy-occupied hex doesn't have the initiative. In this case, everything that enters the center gets croaked. On the other hand, what tactical advantage would this give? Only that I can think off is that all dwagons are near column, ready to attack. Strange. Have to wait till next comic, doh.

[ReccaSquirrel]

I'd like to point out, that Parson likely doesn't know yet that Bats can report back to Vinnie. He believes they have to rely on hats for communication. We need to be sure we don't forget this detail when we discuss what the plan might be.

[Monan]

I expect Parson to keep some dwagons in the center hex to make sure Ansom forces enter there.

Move is the issue here, as soon as Ansom sees it's a trap he will try to leave the center hex. It's too much of a coincidence if they have just the exact move. Unless the best combat units need to be carried and have very little move on their own, and once inside the forest they have to move unhelped. There needs to be a reason for them to remain there.

Ansom can't see what is in the center hex until he's actually sent forces in to the hex, thus using a move and springing the trap. he'll probably use all of his move as his folks and many on this forum have speculated and be easy pickins for the sorrounding stacks of Dwagons.

[factotum]

I'd like to point out, that Parson likely doesn't know yet that Bats can report back to Vinnie. He believes they have to rely on hats for communication. We need to be sure we don't forget this detail when we discuss what the plan might be.

It doesn't really make much difference. Whether the ring is scouted by a bat or by hat-wearing warlords on Peeps, Ansom will get the same information.

[WarforgedGoblin]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already or not, but look at Vinny's expression after the bat gets croaked. Maybe I'm reading into things a bit too much, but that looks like a grimace of pain. What if Vin takes damage every time a bat gets croaked? If that's the case, Ansom wouldn't risk too many more bats for sake of, quite possibly, his best warlord.

[Ganurath]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already or not, but look at Vinny's expression after the bat gets croaked. Maybe I'm reading into things a bit too much, but that looks like a grimace of pain. What if Vin takes damage every time a bat gets croaked? If that's the case, Ansom wouldn't risk too many more bats for sake of, quite possibly, his best warlord.

Yeah, I noticed that too. I was wondering why Ansom was so apologetic.

[Wings]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already or not, but look at Vinny's expression after the bat gets croaked. Maybe I'm reading into things a bit too much, but that looks like a grimace of pain. What if Vin takes damage every time a bat gets croaked? If that's the case, Ansom wouldn't risk too many more bats for sake of, quite possibly, his best warlord.

I don't think he takes damage, it's merely to do with the link that allows him to see what the bats sees. My guess would be that he feels pain, either as the bat is damaged, or the link fails.

[O'Shuva]

What if Vin takes damage every time a bat gets croaked?

Maybe it's just not pleasant seeing through the eyes of something that's been gobbled down by a dwagon. The same could apply for page 49, where Vinny gets to see the inside of a red dwagon's mouth in glorious CCTV quality - in both cases it looks more like plain recoiling from the "eww" factor than something physical.

[SteveMB]

It doesn't really make much difference. Whether the ring is scouted by a bat or by hat-wearing warlords on Peeps, Ansom will get the same information.

If Parson is laying some sort of trap by leaving the rear hex of the ring weak, then he's clearly expecting Ansom's scouts to be able to report that only three dwagons are in that hex -- otherwise, there'd be no "bait" tempting them to use up their Move to come in through the back door.

If the link is something that shows up on a unit display under "Special", Parson presumably knows about it; we've seen that the situation room table shows readouts similar to what he sees through his Stupid Meal glasses (see frame 24/9 -- most of the details are blocked by a dialogue box, but it's clear that stats for Jillian and/or her gwiffon are being shown).

[normalphil]

The trap might be simply to separate Ansom and the various forest-capable uints from the column. Gathered in one place, they may be too strong to attack (even by all the fresh dwagons) without unacceptable casualties -- but if they're off on a fool's errand with insufficient Move to rejoin the column, Parson gets a free shot at the column next turn before bringing the dwagons home.

Carry it further, and assume Parson isn't out to plink away at Ansom, he's out to win.

Since the center hex of the dwagon-fort is still fog-of-warred, that means units can't see adjacent hexes. So here's what I say Parson did to his plan after he realized that Ansom wasn't as omnipotent as he was (most of it has already been said, just not combined this way).

He redeployed the dwagon-fort so it would have that 'weak point' on the far side, sacrificing 3 dwagons. Those are dead.

Ansom's killer-stack swats the sacrifice-stack aside, and since they can't see adjacent hexes, move into the center hex, prepared for battle... and find nothing. They're out of move. Turn over.

Parson's 'A' Dwagons (which didn't go into the center stack, instead just travelled their move deeper into the forest to sleep off wounds confident that Stanley's recce would never find them after it had scoped out the dwagon-fort) begin their move by 'plugging' the sacrifice-hex. The situation is now 43 Dwagons encircling a central hex that contains Ansom, a mission-kill unit. They can't be relieved by any unit in the army except Jillian's force.

What follows is the Battle of Sedan, Franco-Prussian War. "Nous sommes dans un potte de chambre, et nous y serons emmardes."

[Free Radical]

Not really sure of the forum etiquette here on when to use spoiler tags, so I'm going to play it safe.

Spoiler

Show

It's been established that, yes, there can be multiple stacks in the same hex:

I wonder if Parson decided not to commit all of the A Dwagons to the first attack. Considering that he had earlier assumed having at least four in every hex to be sufficient to hold off Ansom's counterattack, hiding three extra full-health dwagons as mounts for the warlords in a second stack in the 'It's a trap!' hex, possibly even with some of the less injured dwagons he used in the attack would be a pretty nasty surprise for Ansom's forces...

[Krelon]

I see two cases:
1. The center is an empty vaccuole, its not very spectacular but it does save dwagons.
2.The center is full of 24 B dwagons and 13 A dwagons and the three warlords. Meat grinder situation as Pardon would have planned for the run-around. Spectacular damage to Ansom but costs units.

Honestly i do not see how Parson, being a proven tactical adept, could have planned it any other ways.

I agree completely.

Before doing the 2. Parson must take the following into calculation: What if for some stupid reason the wounded A-dwagon 'guards' get attacked?
a) Ansom is very angry and sends pursuers directly after the dragons (therefore attacking the 'fort'). if there were only wounded dragons Vinnie would surely work out what is happening - the trap would turn around and cost Stanley half of his flying forces.
b) Ansom is cautious but doesnt want to use up the entire move to keep some tactical options so he attacks a 4 dwagon stack instead of the weak spot. (and discovers it is an easy target, then goes around hitting the rest of the 'fort')
c) bats (Vinie) can see unit stats for some reason...

I favour 1. it's beautiful because Parson does not risk anything.
I believe he (Parson) anticipates Ansom's plan which should be: croak 3 dwagons, croak 24 wounded dwagons+3 warlords. Remove all warlords and fast flyers back to the column (He is a flyer so he will be able to go back to the centre of the column.), sacrifice remaining (don't expect much left) forest units to the counteratack from B-dwagons (maybe taking out 1 more dwagon in the fight). The outcome would leave Stanley weakend by 50% for the cost of a few expendable stacks.
Of course Ansom could just scout the middle hex, in that case there will be no attack still the forest units will be far far away from the column.

I think the dwagons can ignore the forest-capable units completely and concentrate on the siege. In fact, Ansom is probably (my guess) pulling some elvish archers together to reinforce his attack. Those guys will be missing in the column next turn when the dwagons return for the rest of the siege.

theoretically I see a 3. possibility.
Stanley could have some forest capable troops himself (spidews?) and he has 2 more warlords, so there could be a strong fighting force half way from gobwin knob to the 'fort' that will be used to annihilate Ansom's forest units on the next turn while the dwagons go for the alliance flyers this turn, then hide completely safe (because all foresters and flyers are dead) and the turn after that take out all the siege while returning to the city.

[teratorn]

I was wondering about not having everything in the same hex. I suppose that arrows would be a problem for the wounded dwagons inside, even if surrounded by healthy ones. So I guess circle makes sense, in particular because if everything was on the same hex enemy could attack from six directions. I wonder if there is a limit on how many units can enter a side of the hex. Attackers face two bottlenecks this way.

[Rollory]

I have this strange feeling that the center hex is actually empty, leaving the counter attack surrounded by dwagons once they punch through.

That's brilliant. OMG. That's gotta be it.

<Ackbar>IT'S A TRAP!</Ackbar>