Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

[Blue Ghost]

It depends on what the objective is for the cube. You can certainly make a fun environment with cards that are lower power level than usual, and that would be an interesting experience, seeing cards that have no home elsewhere get a place to shine. But that would entail building the environment so that those cards have potential to do something. If you're just throwing together random unplayable cards with the intention of having them remain unplayable, then you have an environment full of unplayable cards, which is by definition an unplayable environment. I suppose some people might enjoy playing a deliberately horrible format, but that sounds painful for me.

[Dhavaer]

The full spoilers look delicious. I especially like Accursed Witch. Speculative Rakdos madness spellslinger deck:

Spoiler

Show

Creatures x12
4x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4x Sin Prodder
4x Accursed Witch

Spells x20
4x Lightning Axe
4x Fiery Temper
4x Alms of the Vein
4x Sinister Concoction
3x Tormenting Voice
2x Burn From Within

Planeswalkers x3
3x Chandra, Flamecaller

Land x24
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Foreboding Ruins
12x Mountain
4x Swamp

[Fable Wright]

The full spoilers look delicious. I especially like Accursed Witch. Speculative Rakdos madness spellslinger deck:

Spoiler

Show

Creatures x12
4x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4x Sin Prodder
4x Accursed Witch

Spells x20
4x Lightning Axe
4x Fiery Temper
4x Alms of the Vein
4x Sinister Concoction
3x Tormenting Voice
2x Avacyn's Judgement

Planeswalkers x3
3x Chandra, Flamecaller

Land x24
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Foreboding Ruins
12x Mountain
4x Swamp

Maybe. What's your win condition, and how are you putting pressure on your opponent? You're playing heavy control here, and the opponent is going to be absolutely fine burning a removal spell for Sin Prodder, not to mention willing to take the life hit from it. Hm. Have you considered Triskaidekaphobia as your wincon? You're doing damage in increments of three, which is the perfect modularity for it, and it means you'll have a significantly easier time getting them in the sweet spot than trying to clear the way with Chandra.

[Dhavaer]

Maybe. What's your win condition, and how are you putting pressure on your opponent? You're playing heavy control here, and the opponent is going to be absolutely fine burning a removal spell for Sin Prodder, not to mention willing to take the life hit from it. Hm. Have you considered Triskaidekaphobia as your wincon? You're doing damage in increments of three, which is the perfect modularity for it, and it means you'll have a significantly easier time getting them in the sweet spot than trying to clear the way with Chandra.

Swinging with Dark-Dwellers + Chandra tokens, with the backup plan of a big Burn From Within, possibly buffed by Curse. Triskaidekaphobia... eh. If their life total goes below 13 it's pretty much dead because I don't have an efficient way of raising their life total, and if I did have that I'd rather play Tainted Remedy for reverse burn.

[Fable Wright]

Swinging with Dark-Dwellers + Chandra tokens, with the backup plan of a big Burn From Within, possibly buffed by Curse. Triskaidekaphobia... eh. If their life total goes below 13 it's pretty much dead because I don't have an efficient way of raising their life total, and if I did have that I'd rather play Tainted Remedy for reverse burn.

Allow me to phrase it this way. One TKDP and you'll kill them faster with it than Chandra or Dark Dwellers if they're at 10-12 life. Two of them is straight-up terrifying. Alternatively, if they burned themselves down to 9, TKDP adds constant pressure to your burn, punishes any sideboard lifegain, and is significantly less fragile than Dark-Dwellers or Chandra.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Allow me to phrase it this way. One TKDP and you'll kill them faster with it than Chandra or Dark Dwellers if they're at 10-12 life. Two of them is straight-up terrifying. Alternatively, if they burned themselves down to 9, TKDP adds constant pressure to your burn, punishes any sideboard lifegain, and is significantly less fragile than Dark-Dwellers or Chandra.

Dark-Dwellers will almost always 2 for 1 though, if not better since to chump it you have to double block.

[ChaosOS]

RE: Story

I really hope it's not Emrakul, I'd much rather see some nameless horror from the depths of Innistrad's ocean

RE: Anguished Unmaking

I like the card and where it is story wise, but I HATE the flavor text, it's much too wordy (Like the INN Ancient Grudge "If there's anything a werewolf hates, it's a collar—especially Avacyn's Collar, the symbol of her church.") "Sorin had created Avacyn, so it was a cruelty beyond imagining, a pain beyond description, that it fell upon him to end her forever."

The 4chan "Proposed flavor texts" were so much better. Even from the current one, the editor should've cut out 'a pain beyond description' at the minimum, and realistically 'a cruelty beyond imagining', from the text

[ryuplaneswalker]

So since someone brought up the idea of a deck with her.

I did made an evil evil deck with Jori En.

[Tesla_pasta]

So since someone brought up the idea of a deck with her.

I did made an evil evil deck with Jori En.

So you just lock everyone else out of the game?

really cool, though I'm trying to go a very different direction. I want to build a durdley control deck that just draws cards, and occasionally points removal or countermagic at anything that threatens to kill me. I just need to find some more win conditions that aren't infinite combos. So far, runechanter's pike is my favorite, since I can 1-shot people with Jori once I've filled my yard with cantrips.

Anyone have suggestions for good ways to win in EDH in Izzet colors?

[ryuplaneswalker]

So you just lock everyone else out of the game?

really cool, though I'm trying to go a very different direction. I want to build a durdley control deck that just draws cards, and occasionally points removal or countermagic at anything that threatens to kill me. I just need to find some more win conditions that aren't infinite combos. So far, runechanter's pike is my favorite, since I can 1-shot people with Jori once I've filled my yard with cantrips.

Anyone have suggestions for good ways to win in EDH in Izzet colors?

Actually it is more like "Draw a billion Cards and use Niv-Mizzet, Psychosis Crawler, Spinx's Tutelage to kill or mill everyone"

Hivemind + Wheel of ____ is just for Lulz.

[Fable Wright]

So since someone brought up the idea of a deck with her.

I did made an evil evil deck with Jori En.

...All I see here is a deck that rolls over and dies when Doran, the Siege Tower hits the table backed up by any amount of removal.

really cool, though I'm trying to go a very different direction. I want to build a durdley control deck that just draws cards, and occasionally points removal or countermagic at anything that threatens to kill me.

I did this once in BUG, but perhaps to a durdlier extent than you. Commander: Mimeoplasm. Secret Commander: Prime Speaker Zegana. Notable cards: Masumaro, First to Live; Jushi Apprentice; Primordial Hydra; Garruk, Primal Hunter; Soul's Majesty; Lord of Extinction; Lorescale Coatl.

Wincons: Laboratory Maniac. Psychosis Crawler. The above creatures with Kagemaro clearing the board for them. Hypothetically, Tomoya the Revealer milling over a hundred cards over an activation at end of turn and again on my upkeep, but Maniac is usually easier at this point.

But mostly, I won with Laboratory Maniac backed up with Pact of Negation, Force of Will, and Voidslime as defenses. I wanted a deck that would draw all the cards. And that's exactly what I did. Occasionally I forgot about the 64/64 trampler I had on the board and tried to draw myself out for the win, but c'est la vie.

[ryuplaneswalker]

...All I see here is a deck that rolls over and dies when Doran, the Siege Tower hits the table backed up by any amount of removal.

So?

99% of the format is describable as "rolls over and dies to the top 5 or 10 super powerful decks"


Edit : Also, "Loses to X card" is not really a good comment on a deck.

Vintage Dredge loses to lots of cards.

[Svata]

So I made this. I feel really bad for it...

[Fable Wright]

So?

99% of the format is describable as "rolls over and dies to the top 5 or 10 super powerful decks"

...A three drop commander that runs a nonzero number of removal spells is not one of the top 5 or 10 super powerful decks. Silklash Spider + Indomitable Ancients + Arachnus Spinner does not a tier 1 deck make. "Is incapable of interacting with a popular commander" is not something that applies to 99% of the format.

Edit : Also, "Loses to X card" is not really a good comment on a deck.

Vintage Dredge loses to lots of cards.

Nor is this a good way to respond to the comment. Instead of 'stop hating on my deck', consider solutions, or acknowledge that it's for a local meta where that card is a nonfactor, or explain secret tech for how you plan on dealing with Doran. Perhaps gather a Chalice of the Void and Trinket Mage to keep him from being cast? Reduce reliance on -X/-0 effects in favor of mass bounce like Cyclonic Rift? Add instant and sorcery recursion to constantly reuse the answer that's been seen to work? Acknowledge that it's a limit on the deck and move on?

Feedback on decks I've played included "Dies to Twin on turn 4", "Can't win against Fish", "X cannot possibly be the best card for the job", and "Over-reliant on Aether Vial". Turning these brief dismissals into useful feedback is one of the most useful deckbuilding skills I've picked up; describing why the comments are wrong gets you thinking critically about how your deck works, and accepting them means finding room for improvement.

Most people do not have time to write in-depth responses or study your list closely, and yet they still have some wisdom to give; consider taking it in the future.

So I made this. I feel really bad for it...

Alright. Question: How soon can you get a two-card combo in hand and six mana open? And is this for casual, or a format where speed is important?

[ryuplaneswalker]

...A three drop commander that runs a nonzero number of removal spells is not one of the top 5 or 10 super powerful decks. Silklash Spider + Indomitable Ancients + Arachnus Spinner does not a tier 1 deck make. "Is incapable of interacting with a popular commander" is not something that applies to 99% of the format.

I really wasn't going for a tier one deck, simply because Jori En -won't- make a Tier one deck that other commanders are not just simply better suited to be in, Jori En in general is a bad card. If I were not building explicitly to her I would not run her at all.

Nor is this a good way to respond to the comment. Instead of 'stop hating on my deck', consider solutions, or acknowledge that it's for a local meta where that card is a nonfactor, or explain secret tech for how you plan on dealing with Doran. Perhaps gather a Chalice of the Void and Trinket Mage to keep him from being cast? Reduce reliance on -X/-0 effects in favor of mass bounce like Cyclonic Rift? Add instant and sorcery recursion to constantly reuse the answer that's been seen to work? Acknowledge that it's a limit on the deck and move on?

Feedback on decks I've played included "Dies to Twin on turn 4", "Can't win against Fish", "X cannot possibly be the best card for the job", and "Over-reliant on Aether Vial". Turning these brief dismissals into useful feedback is one of the most useful deckbuilding skills I've picked up; describing why the comments are wrong gets you thinking critically about how your deck works, and accepting them means finding room for improvement.

My Plan for Doran is "Go off with Omnisence or die" that happens with decks sometimes. You can hate on my deck all you want, but "Dies to X" is not a really feedback, every deck in existence has a "dies to x" in it somewhere, name a deck I can name something that hoseses it. Yes the deck is weak to Doran so what? My plan for him is..go off ASAP. That is how Vintage Storm Deals with Vintage Shops, you PRAY you go off before Lodestone Golem comes down. Heck that was the general idea of the Abzan Company deck which was about the only thing that could match Modern Eldrazi "pray you go off before you get stomped"

PS I am not using Cyclonic Rift cause it doesn't draw a card, and Evacuate will do the same general job at one mana less which since part of the deck is doing cheap on others turns to maximize card drawing I decided that the lower cost would be a better choice. and a better example is Underworld dreams as this deck is completely hosed the moment that comes down.

[Svata]

Alright. Question: How soon can you get a two-card combo in hand and six mana open? And is this for casual, or a format where speed is important?

Well, given that everything that isn't part of the combo is either ramp, card draw, or counterspells, generally fast enough, at least in testing on cockatrice. And honestly, I'm not sure where I'd use it.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

It depends on what the objective is for the cube. You can certainly make a fun environment with cards that are lower power level than usual, and that would be an interesting experience, seeing cards that have no home elsewhere get a place to shine. But that would entail building the environment so that those cards have potential to do something. If you're just throwing together random unplayable cards with the intention of having them remain unplayable, then you have an environment full of unplayable cards, which is by definition an unplayable environment. I suppose some people might enjoy playing a deliberately horrible format, but that sounds painful for me.

I'm trying to go with the former, which is why I'm being picky and why most stuff from Kamigawa is unusable. As tempting as it is to put a Darksteel Relic in there for ****s and giggles it's basically an easy pass. The idea is that there are no easy passes because everything is on the same plane of "awful but maybe".

[Fable Wright]

I really wasn't going for a tier one deck, simply because Jori En -won't- make a Tier one deck that other commanders are not just simply better suited to be in, Jori En in general is a bad card. If I were not building explicitly to her I would not run her at all.

*Shrug*

You're asking for feedback. Presumably, this is you asking for help to make the deck better. One of the ways you can make the deck better is shoring up weaknesses. So I pointed out a weakness you could shore up. If you don't want to improve the deck, I'm not sure why you're asking for feedback.

My Plan for Doran is "Go off with Omnisence or die" that happens with decks sometimes.

Sure. You're writing it off as a lost matchup, that's fine, as long as it's a conscious design choice.

You can hate on my deck all you want, but "Dies to X" is not a really feedback, every deck in existence has a "dies to x" in it somewhere, name a deck I can name something that hoseses it.

Sure, all decks have weaknesses. So those that can shore them up, and those that can't take the calculated loss. Blood Moon punishes Jund brutally, so it makes sure to fetch basics and run Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. Lantern Control randomly dies to any number of cards, so it uses Spellskite and Pithing Needle to take the edge off. My modern deck can struggle when it doesn't get an Aether Vial or a Temur Ascendancy, or when they're removed. So I gave it a more controlling shell to stall the control decks, punish the aggro decks, and decrease the reliance on my combo, as well as some good filtering to get me to my combos faster.

Your deck is weak to huge creatures. Lord of Extinction-sized creatures with evasion like Trample or Menace requires Repulse, Deluge, or Evacuation to deal with, and each deals with him for only one turn. Your deck is weak to Sorin Markov; you've got no lifegain or counterspells, or cantrips like Squelch or Reroute. You've got no tutors for Omniscience or High Tide to dig up your combo faster. These are all weaknesses that could be addressed. So why are you berating me instead of critically thinking about what makes your deck better?

Yes the deck is weak to Doran so what? My plan for him is..go off ASAP. That is how Vintage Storm Deals with Vintage Shops, you PRAY you go off before Lodestone Golem comes down. Heck that was the general idea of the Abzan Company deck which was about the only thing that could match Modern Eldrazi "pray you go off before you get stomped"

Alright, so now you have a strategy to deal with Doran. Cool. Now, how can you improve your deck so that it goes off faster? Does Gamble appeal to you, with your large hand improving your odds? Do you want Mystic Tutor or Merchant Scroll to fish up your High Tide or Evacuation? Archmage Ascension as ultimate tutormastery?

PS I am not using Cyclonic Rift cause it doesn't draw a card, and Evacuate will do the same general job at one mana less which since part of the deck is doing cheap on others turns to maximize card drawing I decided that the lower cost would be a better choice. and a better example is Underworld dreams as this deck is completely hosed the moment that comes down.

So, Nekusar is now also a problem matchup. Have you considered taking out Ego Erasure, which doesn't cantrip anyways, and putting in Cyclonic Rift instead? Into the Roil at end of opponent's turn to give you a turn of unmolested card drawing? Using Repeal for the same purpose, at cheaper cost if the problem card costs less than Doran or Underworld Dreams? Void Squall for two unmolested turns at the cost of the cantrip? Or write that off as at two commanders that you automatically scoop to?

EDIT: Oh, wait. Dissipation Field. Derp. Perfect answer to Underworld Dreams, and keeps the heat off you enough to combo off. Perfect card.

Well, given that everything that isn't part of the combo is either ramp, card draw, or counterspells, generally fast enough, at least in testing on cockatrice. And honestly, I'm not sure where I'd use it.

Well, if it's modern, I can say that you'd lose extremely quickly to Fish and Elves, have problems with Scapeshift and really any deck running Electrolyze, and that BGx will mess up your day. Oh, and Affinity is giggling like a schoolgirl in the corner over there. If it's casual, I really can't comment too much.

[sonofzeal]

Timing question:

I have Spiketail Drakeling and Nim Deathmantle on the field, and eight untapped lands. The opponent attempts to cast a spell. Can I sacrifice Spiketail Drakeling to its ability, tap four to activate Nim and return the Drake to the battlefield, and then immediately sacrifice the Drake again to effectively force the opponent to pay an extra {4}, or even {6} if I recur through Nim twice and sac it a third time?

[Fable Wright]

Timing question:

I have Spiketail Drake and Nim Deathmantle on the field, and eight untapped lands. The opponent attempts to cast a spell. Can I sacrifice Spiketail Drakeling to its ability, tap four to activate Nim and return the Drake to the battlefield, and then immediately sacrifice the Drake again to effectively force the opponent to pay an extra {4}, or even {6} if I recur through Nim twice and sac it a third time?

When the Nim Deathmantle trigger resolves, you will hold priority. If you pass priority to your opponent, their spell will resolve. However, as you hold priority, you can absolutely activate Spiketail Drake(ling)'s ability to counter the spell a second or third time, retaining priority after Deathmantle resolution each time, before passing priority back to your opponent for their spell to resolve.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Timing question:

I have Spiketail Drakeling and Nim Deathmantle on the field, and eight untapped lands. The opponent attempts to cast a spell. Can I sacrifice Spiketail Drakeling to its ability, tap four to activate Nim and return the Drake to the battlefield, and then immediately sacrifice the Drake again to effectively force the opponent to pay an extra {4}, or even {6} if I recur through Nim twice and sac it a third time?

Yes, you can do that, using stack loops like that is how Abzan Company goes for infinite Bolster triggers.

[Svata]

Well, if it's modern, I can say that you'd lose extremely quickly to Fish and Elves, have problems with Scapeshift and really any deck running Electrolyze, and that BGx will mess up your day. Oh, and Affinity is giggling like a schoolgirl in the corner over there. If it's casual, I really can't comment too much.

Yeah elves is a bad match, and if scapeshift can combo off, I'm in trouble. But for that I just side in all of the counterspells. Electrolyze is rough, but that's generally sideboard tech, if run at all. BGx is rough, too, and I've no real plan there. And how is affinity so bad? If I don't get the lattice, Memnarch just takes all of their everything, and any deck running Darksteel Citadel just gives me the warm fuzzies, cause March of the Machines.

[Fable Wright]

Yeah elves is a bad match, and if scapeshift can combo off, I'm in trouble. But for that I just side in all of the counterspells. Electrolyze is rough, but that's generally sideboard tech, if run at all. BGx is rough, too, and I've no real plan there. And how is affinity so bad? If I don't get the lattice, Memnarch just takes all of their everything, and any deck running Darksteel Citadel just gives me the warm fuzzies, cause March of the Machines.

The thing about Affinity, especially at the moment, is that it's really, really fast. You won't be able to get out Memnarch in time. And even if you did, it wouldn't end as well as you think it will; if they have the Ravager, Memnarch misses. If they had their Steel Overseer, you've just got no outs; Memnarch's not doing much against a bunch of far-too-big Memnites, Signal Pests, and Ornithopters beating face. March of the Machines makes Affinity giddy, despite killing their land and mox; they can now attack with their Springleaf Drums.

It's just a poor matchup all around without really fast mana. And your meta may be different, but in mine, most R/U decks run Electrolyze, at least as a 2-of, whether they're an old UWR Geist list, RUG control, or Wafo-Tapa Control. (Yes, my meta has people playing those.)

[Svata]

The thing about Affinity, especially at the moment, is that it's really, really fast. You won't be able to get out Memnarch in time. And even if you did, it wouldn't end as well as you think it will; if they have the Ravager, Memnarch misses. If they had their Steel Overseer, you've just got no outs; Memnarch's not doing much against a bunch of far-too-big Memnites, Signal Pests, and Ornithopters beating face. March of the Machines makes Affinity giddy, despite killing their land and mox; they can now attack with their Springleaf Drums.

It's just a poor matchup all around without really fast mana. And your meta may be different, but in mine, most R/U decks run Electrolyze, at least as a 2-of, whether they're an old UWR Geist list, RUG control, or Wafo-Tapa Control. (Yes, my meta has people playing those.)

Fair enough. I guess I'll stick to w/b tokens and Lantern.

[Turalisj]

So... what are the odds that Meren gets banned as a commander?

[Mystic Muse]

So... what are the odds that Meren gets banned as a commander?

Nonexistent. They aren't bring the BaaC list back. If Meren gets banned, she's getting banned entirely.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So... what are the odds that Meren gets banned as a commander?

Not a whole lot, Mizzix can be far more powerful that Meren gets, or Kaliaa.

[Ionbound]

*grumbles* I wish R/W was good in EDH...

[ChaosOS]

RW runs into the issue of being the most often designated "Limited aggro" color, which means that the RW uncommons are so frequently bad in constructed. Beyond that, the themes of direct damage, healing, and combat manipulation are all just not nearly as relevant in EDH which tends to be about overwhelming resources. RW simply has the worst draw out of any 2 color pair, no ramp, simply zero resource acceleration. It does have prison effects, but they are so inefficient compared to the acceleration in UG that it's worthless.

[Fable Wright]

*grumbles* I wish R/W was good in EDH...

Gisela says hello.