Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die

[Turalisj]

There's a reason I prefer playing Green in EDH >.>

Alright... doing this right... I want to build a reanimator EDH. Precon Meren was a good start, and I've added some good stuff into there (Necrotic Ooze, Reanimate, the Blood/Bond combo). Should I stick with him (her?) as my commander? Would Sidisi be a better way to go?

[Svata]

So... what are the odds that Meren gets banned as a commander?

Low. Sure, she's strong, but she's no Narset, Mizzix or even Niv-Mizzet.

And some good things to add would be Avenger of Zendikar, Grave Pact/Dictate of Erebos (if you do that, toss in It That Betrays, too), and Origins Liliana is a nice addition, as she's a creature in the 'yard.

[ChaosOS]

There's a reason I prefer playing Green in EDH >.>

Alright... doing this right... I want to build a reanimator EDH. Precon Meren was a good start, and I've added some good stuff into there (Necrotic Ooze, Reanimate, the Blood/Bond combo). Should I stick with him (her?) as my commander? Would Sidisi be a better way to go?

Depends on your plan. Adding W adds some really potent targets in Elesh Norn and Iona, so generally I'd say that Karador, Ghost Chieftain is one of the stronger reanimator commanders. Definitely a pricier one though given the demands of a 3 color mana base for EDH

[Turalisj]

I try to avoid three color, I don't like getting mana-screwed. Even with Meren, unless I draw three lands to start, and at least one black source, I'm screwed. Even then, the deck just doesn't run fast enough for my local meta.

[Dhavaer]

Yay, TappedOut has Shadows now! I've put up a vampires list, currently five cards over 60. I'm thinking of dropping a bloodmad vampire, an indulgent aristocrat, a lightning axe and two swamps. Thoughts?

[ChaosOS]

Those seem like good cuts just upon inspection of the list without actually getting a chance to play it. Depending on the format shaving off a Kalitas might be a better choice, it depends on how fast the format is. You have a lot of draw and ways to spend mana which is definitely good.

[ryuplaneswalker]

*grumbles* I wish R/W was good in EDH...

I am thinking with the flash effect the New Avacyn will be really good for Boros EDH, Red/White's strengths tend to be "massive wienie rush" and having a Flash effect that you can cast whenever that can help avoid board wipes will give Boros a chance to do things.

Edit : Keep Kalitas, Post Rotation may still have possible Shenanigans with Nantuko Husk, and Relentless Undead is a thing.

[ChaosOS]

Without rally or the absurd mana the big pull to Nantuko husk is pretty gone, plus Kalitas was specifically good for answering the Rally itself. As to questions surrounding UB zombies as a deck with their recursion, that's what sideboards are for.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Nantuko Husk has shown up in the past without Rally being a thing, and like I said, Relentless Zombie is a thing and doesn't require a 4 color deck to combo with Husk, it will be far less explosive than 4 Color rally is now, but Husk has worked with slower cards before in high level play.

Also Kalitas is just a very efficient card in general.

I could honestly see a deck forming post rotation with a core of

Relentless Dead
Nantuko Husk
Kalitas
Liliana Heretical Healer

Maybe the Cuthroat, and if you don't splash into a second color you can afford to sneak in some wastes for Eldrazi like Matter Reshaper, Though truth be told I think you would be better off going into white for Ayli since her effect plays very well with Relentless Dead.

Edit : PS, That would be what I would do..if I wasn't building naya super friends.

[Dhavaer]

After goldfishing a bit I don't like bloodmad vampire - I never got to cast it for madness, which made it a three drop competing with Olivia and Drana. It's out, aristocrat, axe and swamp are back in.

[Ninjaman]

Nantuko Husk has shown up in the past without Rally being a thing, and like I said, Relentless Zombie is a thing and doesn't require a 4 color deck to combo with Husk, it will be far less explosive than 4 Color rally is now, but Husk has worked with slower cards before in high level play.

Also Kalitas is just a very efficient card in general.

I could honestly see a deck forming post rotation with a core of

Relentless Dead
Nantuko Husk
Kalitas
Liliana Heretical Healer

Maybe the Cuthroat, and if you don't splash into a second color you can afford to sneak in some wastes for Eldrazi like Matter Reshaper, Though truth be told I think you would be better off going into white for Ayli since her effect plays very well with Relentless Dead.

Edit : PS, That would be what I would do..if I wasn't building naya super friends.

I'm pretty sure Diregraf Collosus would be an important card, and very likely Prized Amalgam too.

[ryuplaneswalker]

The problem with The Diregraf Colossus is that there aren't that many zombies that are playable, the reason I think Relentless Dead is going to be huge is because it brings itself back easily, though a blue shell is possible with the Amalgam as it would be a good target for Dead's second ability.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I don't understand EDH. I see them. I hear them laughing and having fun in their games. I want that. I want what they have. But I sit down with my 100 card singleton deck and my verve to immerse myself in that world. But I'm quickly bored, looking at my watch, wondering what kind of person would agree to play 100 card singleton decks.

Am I missing something? I just don't understand. I'm frustrated that I don't understand, either. It goes far beyond my not liking it. That implies I can at least empathise that other people would, but I don't have that kind of imagination. I can't picture anyone, anywhere, from any walk of life enjoying it. Can someone explain it?

[ryuplaneswalker]

I don't understand EDH. I see them. I hear them laughing and having fun in their games. I want that. I want what they have. But I sit down with my 100 card singleton deck and my verve to immerse myself in that world. But I'm quickly bored, looking at my watch, wondering what kind of person would agree to play 100 card singleton decks.

Am I missing something? I just don't understand. I'm frustrated that I don't understand, either. It goes far beyond my not liking it. That implies I can at least empathise that other people would, but I don't have that kind of imagination. I can't picture anyone, anywhere, from any walk of life enjoying it. Can someone explain it?

The big one is you get to play cards and decks that you normally would never get to play, my personal EDH deck, that never gets taken apart is Scion of the Ur Dragon cause I like dragons, and his ability lets you do stupid stupid things.

[Binks]

I don't understand EDH.

For me it's less about specifically playing Commander and more about massive singleton decks being more fun to build than 60 card decks that play nine 4-ofs. More variety = more entertainment for me. Commander has the biggest, craziest plays of any format I've tried. I was building 60 card near-singleton decks before Commander really took off, so having a good excuse to expand to 100 cards (and add an additional restriction/option) was fantastic.

As for time, I play almost exclusively multiplayer games. Even without Commander decks the games are going to take 15-20m. Commander adds maybe 5-10m, so not a big deal. If you're used to 5-10m duel games it's a big change, but I was already playing long games anyways.

[Ninjaman]

I don't understand EDH. I see them. I hear them laughing and having fun in their games. I want that. I want what they have. But I sit down with my 100 card singleton deck and my verve to immerse myself in that world. But I'm quickly bored, looking at my watch, wondering what kind of person would agree to play 100 card singleton decks.

Am I missing something? I just don't understand. I'm frustrated that I don't understand, either. It goes far beyond my not liking it. That implies I can at least empathise that other people would, but I don't have that kind of imagination. I can't picture anyone, anywhere, from any walk of life enjoying it. Can someone explain it?

Well first off building a deck that's not 4 of every card is fun. And building around a specific card is fun. And playing cards you don't usually play are fun, especially the powerful ones (sol ring, demonic tutor, sylvan library) and just big spells and long sequences that are totally overkill in normal games but actually useful in commander. When you look at the card pool for commander, 100 card singleton is better than the 60 cards 4 off with standard's card pool.

As for playing the game there are many ways to do it. My playgroup doesn't look down on infinite combos (in fact most of us play them) but many playgroups do. Being allowed to do broken things generally take the time of a game down considerably. But even then commander often takes a lot longer than normal 1 on 1 games, and if you greatly dislike that you probably won't like playing commander.



@Binks
Where do you get those times from? They seem completely wrong to me.

[Fable Wright]

I don't understand EDH. I see them. I hear them laughing and having fun in their games. I want that. I want what they have. But I sit down with my 100 card singleton deck and my verve to immerse myself in that world. But I'm quickly bored, looking at my watch, wondering what kind of person would agree to play 100 card singleton decks.

Am I missing something? I just don't understand. I'm frustrated that I don't understand, either. It goes far beyond my not liking it. That implies I can at least empathise that other people would, but I don't have that kind of imagination. I can't picture anyone, anywhere, from any walk of life enjoying it. Can someone explain it?

I'm sitting at the table across from four other people. It's not my turn, but I'm watching everyone closely. I've got one White mana open, and a Knight of the Reliquary that I could use for more, but I want to fetch a Thawing Glaciers with her. I stare out with my Swords and my Enlightened Tutor. I look at the board, and my play. What do I do? Across from me is the Omnath, Locus of Mana deck, and he just cast his commander. Over the next turn, he'll become huge. I can end it now, at the cost of tutoring. But should I? To the left is a Child of Alara Lands deck. If something goes bad, he'll use his commander to clear the board. To my right is Ezuri. He's building up for the third time this game, but he's running out of gas.

I think of what I could tutor for. I could get Survival of the Fittest, dig up a Genesis and an Eternal Witness, and prepare for the reset by dumping a Genesis and Eternal Witness in the bin. Or, if I think it will take a few turns, I could use Knight to dig up Buried Ruin and I could tutor for Crucible of Words, grabbing Volrath's Stronghold next turn. Oops, looks like the reset's coming faster than I thought; do or die time. Do I get the Volrath's Stronghold and Crucible of Worlds? Do I grab Survival to get Sun Titan and recur the Knight? Screw it, I haven't used Survival in a while; let's go with that one.

What appeals to me about EDH is that I've got a toolbox with 99 answers, and a dozen engines to get me to my locks. But I'm playing against a completely unknown and random field, and I have to play it by ear. It's like playing Doomsday, but without feeling like a horrible person on every level.

[Arcane_Snowman]

Yay, TappedOut has Shadows now! I've put up a vampires list, currently five cards over 60. I'm thinking of dropping a bloodmad vampire, an indulgent aristocrat, a lightning axe and two swamps. Thoughts?

First of all, if the deck is intended for FNM it seems to me like it's more mid-range than aggro, as you've got a much higher curve than most aggro decks would boast.

I'd personally go with the Insolent Neonate over the Indulgent Aristocrat, just because it's another Madness enabler and you don't have too many tools that allow you to go wide, so the Aristocrat isn't that much value. It's also got menace, so it's a decent enough beater.

As much as I like the idea of Kalitas, Drana and the Dragon, they're all very high mana-cost for an aggro deck, with both the vampires feeling rather janky as they have got less synergy and are simply just good-stuff (Kalitas for sideboard is definitely an idea though), I'd probably look at the Incorrigible Youths to make the deck more aggro, and they've got a decent amount of synergy with the Neonate or Heir as well, similarly, the Bloodmad Vampire looks like it could be damn good with Olivia, as a 5/2 on turn 4 to close out. Lastly, I'd also try to get some copies of Macabre Waltz or Tormenting Voice in there to get some more Madness synergy and value.

Seeing as you've got no steady way to consistently discard cards and thus enable madness, I also feel like the mainboard combined number of Fiery Temper/Alms of the Vein is a little bit too high, if you had Call the Bloodline or Ravenous Bloodseeker maybe you could consider having more but as stands you're relying a bit too much on Olivia, which combined with the current cost of your Vampires doesn't really allow you to cast too many things in one turn. I'd probably be least upset about the Alms going, just because they can't be used as combat trick, though I can see having a couple at hand in the sideboard to allow you to better race other aggro decks if that's a thing in your meta.

Another thing all of the above does is shift the color mix from a 50/50 Red/Black mix to about 80/20, which will allow you to have less dual lands in your deck, without fetch lands and/or consistently untapped on play duals, you're taking too much of a gamble with them.

[Tesla_pasta]

I don't understand EDH. I see them. I hear them laughing and having fun in their games. I want that. I want what they have. But I sit down with my 100 card singleton deck and my verve to immerse myself in that world. But I'm quickly bored, looking at my watch, wondering what kind of person would agree to play 100 card singleton decks.

Am I missing something? I just don't understand. I'm frustrated that I don't understand, either. It goes far beyond my not liking it. That implies I can at least empathise that other people would, but I don't have that kind of imagination. I can't picture anyone, anywhere, from any walk of life enjoying it. Can someone explain it?

There's nothing wrong with not like EDH, so don't feel bad if it's just not your cup of tea.

That being said, if you aren't enjoying and cant figure out why, there's a few things you might examine.

1- the local EDH group might be a bunch of duds. While it's not my turn, I'm still having fun hanging out with my friends. This is a big part of the political aspect of the game, so playing with good friends makes the long games seem faster.

2- you might be playing boring decks. There is a HUGE number of playable EDH decks out there, so you can pretty much build anything if you're smart. To some extent, you're responsible for your own enjoyment, so build a deck that is inherently fun for you to play. Find whatever it is you enjoy about Magic, then build around that theme.

[Turalisj]

Yeah, I don't like playing against blue decks in EDH. It becomes a game of "Mother may I cast this?"

[Dhavaer]

First of all, if the deck is intended for FNM it seems to me like it's more mid-range than aggro, as you've got a much higher curve than most aggro decks would boast.

What kind of curve do your aggro decks usually have? This is slightly slower than my warriors deck - it can't kill turn 4 - but they both top out at 4.

I'd personally go with the Insolent Neonate over the Indulgent Aristocrat, just because it's another Madness enabler and you don't have too many tools that allow you to go wide, so the Aristocrat isn't that much value. It's also got menace, so it's a decent enough beater.

Neonate looks okay. I wanted a one-drop in black, since it's my main colour by a narrow margin, but I might try it out.

As much as I like the idea of Kalitas, Drana and the Dragon, they're all very high mana-cost for an aggro deck, with both the vampires feeling rather janky as they have got less synergy and are simply just good-stuff (Kalitas for sideboard is definitely an idea though), I'd probably look at the Incorrigible Youths to make the deck more aggro, and they've got a decent amount of synergy with the Neonate or Heir as well, similarly, the Bloodmad Vampire looks like it could be damn good with Olivia, as a 5/2 on turn 4 to close out. Lastly, I'd also try to get some copies of Macabre Waltz or Tormenting Voice in there to get some more Madness synergy and value.

Eh. Incorrigible Youths I suspect will have the same problem as Bloodmad Vampire did - it's dead if you don't have a free Madness enabler on curve. I had Macabre Waltz in my speculative build before the full set was spoiled, but I don't see it doing much unless I'm already losing. Maybe I'll put it in the sideboard for control matchups.

Seeing as you've got no steady way to consistently discard cards and thus enable madness, I also feel like the mainboard combined number of Fiery Temper/Alms of the Vein is a little bit too high, if you had Call the Bloodline or Ravenous Bloodseeker maybe you could consider having more but as stands you're relying a bit too much on Olivia, which combined with the current cost of your Vampires doesn't really allow you to cast too many things in one turn. I'd probably be least upset about the Alms going, just because they can't be used as combat trick, though I can see having a couple at hand in the sideboard to allow you to better race other aggro decks if that's a thing in your meta.

It actually seems to spend a lot more time discarding lands and extra copies of Legendarys than holding madness cards with no outlet. Heir + Olivia + Axe doesn't seem like much, but it gets the job done. Maybe it will work out differently in actual play, we'll see.

[sonofzeal]

Is there a way to improve how Cockatrice handles tokens?

I mean, it tries. Spirit tokens, for instance, get the right art automatically. But it doesn't know what to do with Wolf tokens, and every time I slap down a Springjack Sheppard it seems to decide that white Goat tokens are pretty much the same as red Goatnappers.

[tgva8889]

I don't understand EDH. I see them. I hear them laughing and having fun in their games. I want that. I want what they have. But I sit down with my 100 card singleton deck and my verve to immerse myself in that world. But I'm quickly bored, looking at my watch, wondering what kind of person would agree to play 100 card singleton decks.

Am I missing something? I just don't understand. I'm frustrated that I don't understand, either. It goes far beyond my not liking it. That implies I can at least empathise that other people would, but I don't have that kind of imagination. I can't picture anyone, anywhere, from any walk of life enjoying it. Can someone explain it?

Well, EDH isn't for everyone, so I wouldn't feel to bad about not understanding it or not having fun with it yourself. There's definitely a certain subset of Magic player who probably shouldn't play EDH because it won't be fun for them or anyone playing with them. But clearly you enjoy something about Magic, so play what you like.

Some people like the idea of having a bit more variation in which cards get played. EDH (and other singleton variants) are often greatly enjoyed because a wider variety of cards are played in those formats than in any other because you simply have to play a variety of cards. Some people really enjoy that sort of experience. If you would rather have a well-tuned consistent machine rather than embracing the opportunity to play (or see) some weird cards in action or the challenge of trying to make something consistent when you're limited to 1 copy of each card, then singleton formats probably are not for you.

Many people, specifically for EDH, really enjoy the experience of creating their own deck that does a particular thing. EDH is really very much a Johnny/Timmy format: most people consider their decks to be works of art, whether those art pieces are designed to destroy people or take all the turns or control all the Leviathans or accurately represent the adventures of Indiana Jones, and most people enjoy the crazy giant things that happen in games of EDH that don't happen in other formats because of the nature of the game. The fun is really getting your deck to do something that you enjoy besides just winning the game. You want to win in a particular way, if winning is your ultimate goal at all. That's a key element of EDH that a lot of other formats don't do as much; if you want to win as your main goal of playing Magic most of the time, then EDH is probably not going to entice you as much.

That goes into the other big element of EDH, which is playing a game with a bunch of friends. A lot of people really enjoy playing Magic with a lot of other people. I, for example, love multiplayer Magic and savor every moment I get to play it and think about it. It's not the easiest or the greatest and there's more elements out of your control, but it's a lot more exciting for me personally than a typical game of Magic. Some people love the political aspects, some people love the challenge, some people just enjoy the variety. If this aspect isn't for you, though, then I think EDH is not the place you want to be, though there are many formats good for other elements.

[Arcane_Snowman]

What kind of curve do your aggro decks usually have? This is slightly slower than my warriors deck - it can't kill turn 4 - but they both top out at 4.

From my understanding, you're usually looking to try and win by turn 4.

Eh. Incorrigible Youths I suspect will have the same problem as Bloodmad Vampire did - it's dead if you don't have a free Madness enabler on curve.

Well, that's what the Ravenous Bloodseeker/Insolent Neonate is supposed to fix, giving you better ways to discard the Youths on curve.

I had Macabre Waltz in my speculative build before the full set was spoiled, but I don't see it doing much unless I'm already losing. Maybe I'll put it in the sideboard for control matchups.

Tormenting Voice is probably the better of the two, but it could certainly be a sideboard option

It actually seems to spend a lot more time discarding lands and extra copies of Legendarys than holding madness cards with no outlet. Heir + Olivia + Axe doesn't seem like much, but it gets the job done. Maybe it will work out differently in actual play, we'll see.

Ultimately it is a matter of testing the deck, if you're aiming for an aggro strategy it does look like the Legendary vampires are a little too slow to get it done, but that doesn't make it necessarily an unviable deck it just means you might have to work around another paradigm.

[Svata]

Yeah, I don't like playing against blue decks in EDH. It becomes a game of "Mother may I cast this?"

Yeah. I know what you mean. I had a game last week where it was my Meren deck vs a Tromokratis, a Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, and a Kruphix. I, somehow managed to take out the Niv player, after preventing him from comboing off with some sac outlet and a Dictate of Erebos in play. Then I managed to stave off the Kruphix player into a tie.

[Tvtyrant]

What are the thoughts about mono black control in standard right now? There are currently lots of discard, sweepers, and finishers along with the black version of sphinx's revelation.

[Tesla_pasta]

There's a reason I prefer playing Green in EDH >.>

Alright... doing this right... I want to build a reanimator EDH. Precon Meren was a good start, and I've added some good stuff into there (Necrotic Ooze, Reanimate, the Blood/Bond combo). Should I stick with him (her?) as my commander? Would Sidisi be a better way to go?

Meren is one of my favorite commanders and she's pretty easy to build. My list has a focus on controlling the board with edicts and naturilzes (on sac'd creatures) in the early game, while ramping up experience counters as quickly as possible. Once you hit 6-8 counters, you want to start dredging instead of drawing pretty much every chance you get so that you can start ripping bombs out of your graveyard every turn.

[tgva8889]

I mean, basically any control deck, blue or not, plays out that way. My WB deck certainly feels more "Mother may I?" than my UG deck does, because your dudes are getting blown up a lot.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Yeah, I don't like playing against blue decks in EDH. It becomes a game of "Mother may I cast this?"

That is when the other 3 players play "How many counter spells does that blue player have in his hand"

[ChaosOS]

From my understanding, you're usually looking to try and win by turn 4.

Standard aggro isn't that fast, it's more of a turn 5 or 6 win, usually burning the opponent out on turn 6. Modern affinity can klil turn 4, sometimes 3, there's no way any standard aggro deck should be nearly that fast especially if the opponent has interaction.