Civ 5 GMR 16 Reject Earth Edition

[Mx.Silver]

Relevant: Civilization Tier scientifically proven not to correlate to win ratio in multiplayer.

Caveats about sample sizes, etc., but still.

Colour me unsurprised.
Although now I do have to worry whether that 100% success rate with the Iroquois is going to cause everyone to pre-emptively start ganging-up on me

[Silverraptor]

I read that report and what I understood from it were, the results were inconclusive and in some ways contradictory. He said something that he was removing the player team-up data from the results, then goes on for a while talking about it and how the higher tier tend to be more player teamed on. And then at the end he basically said that this data could not represent players as a whole, but most likely refered to experienced players who follow the competitive mindset or atleast know exactly what they are doing down to a science. Something that I don't think we on this forum could categorized ourselves under. Plus, the data was with the fact that every nation had a chance of being chosen those games. With the bottom tier game we're playing, we're basically doing it to have fun and to not drastically shake up the game dynamically because of those pesky power civilizations.

[OrcusMcP]

Relevant: Civilization Tier scientifically proven not to correlate to win ratio in multiplayer.

Caveats about sample sizes, etc., but still.

Yeah, I'm honestly not that surprised. Civ Tiers are generally skewed positively towards earlier bonuses for obvious reasons, but especially in multiplayer where you can see/plan/scheme in a way the AI can't and resources/policies/religious beliefs can affect things in a way civ choice can't, things aren't as set in stone as people think they can be.

That being said, Maya, Poland, Persia and Rome have been a bit too prominent in a lot of the GMR games run around here, so I'm glad to see push back against that in this game.

[Illven]

That being said, Maya, Poland, Persia and Rome have been a bit too prominent in a lot of the GMR games run around here, so I'm glad to see push back against that in this game.

Hasn't Rome been in one game?

[OrcusMcP]

Hasn't Rome been in one game?

It's been in at least two, but I'd have to go back to do a proper count.

[Illven]

Datsmore, what happened?

[TheOneHawk]

How the hell is Venice considered bottom tier? Every tier list I've seen either has them in the top half, sometimes considered top tier. I think you guys are -seriously- underestimating that civ.

Also it's my best civ by a long shot so maybe I'm just biased.

[DodgerH2O]

How the hell is Venice considered bottom tier? Every tier list I've seen either has them in the top half, sometimes considered top tier. I think you guys are -seriously- underestimating that civ.

Also it's my best civ by a long shot so maybe I'm just biased.

I suspect part of it is general adaptability. If your capital site is terrible and/or you start too far away from other civs/city-states then Venice doesn't have any way to compete early game. Those early turns count, especially in multiplayer where the other civs have actual brains instead of just AI bonuses and diplomacy modifiers.

[The_Snark]

They also have a hard time fending off aggressive neighbors, thanks to their limited control over their production/tendency to have spread-out cities. In single-player this is manageable, because the AI can't really recognize this weakness and isn't good at warfare anyway, but in multiplayer Venice tends to be seen as a high-reward, low-risk target for warmongering players.

[TheOneHawk]

The thing is, it should be impossible to take over a well played Venice. They should have alliances with multiple military city states, plus be able to just buy a unit every single turn due to their hilarious gold income. Maybe their early game is a bit vulnerable, and they certainly have weaknesses, but bottom tier? I really struggle to see that. I've never lost with them in multiplayer (small sample size, admittedly) and I've only lost with them vs AI on Deity, and Deity cheats so hard it's not even funny.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Venice works well in single player because it's easy to manipulate AI diplomacy. Even Shaka can be distracted with a cheap bribe to go fight someone else.

In multiplayer, meanwhile, it's very easy for them to get shut down economically, because human players are even bigger psychopaths than the AI and will declare war just to cripple trade routes, or pass two WC resolutions to make Venice's double trade routes completely useless. If that happens, Venice loses its main source of gold, and gold is the only way for Venice to do anything.

My main strategy here is "be a completely nonthreatening joke until I have a decent bank account and have met all the city-states."

Also let's just say that uh. The bad start position thing is a major problem when start bias is turned off. As anyone might be able to tell from looking at my score.

[Illven]

Hey, Datsmore wants us to revert and let him back in. I'll do the second, but is everyone okay with the first?

[Datsmore]

I will apologize, I was out of town and my laptop died in the middle of it.

[Zevox]

I'm fine with that, but I'm not one of the ones who will have to re-do a turn if we do it.

Edit: Oh, about the Venice thing, after a bit of googling, I suspect this is the tier list Illven got our bottom 8 Civs from. It's supposed to be multiplayer-specific, but being new to the game and only having located it as an image I couldn't explain the reasoning behind any of it.

[The_Snark]

The thing is, it should be impossible to take over a well played Venice. They should have alliances with multiple military city states, plus be able to just buy a unit every single turn due to their hilarious gold income. Maybe their early game is a bit vulnerable, and they certainly have weaknesses, but bottom tier? I really struggle to see that. I've never lost with them in multiplayer (small sample size, admittedly) and I've only lost with them vs AI on Deity, and Deity cheats so hard it's not even funny.

Eh... I feel like you're assuming that the competition isn't equally well-played, there. Yeah, a properly done Venice will have an unmatched economy in the late game, and there's a lot you can do to leverage that; but my feeling is that a well-built tall civ focused on science can generally beat you to a science victory, while a well-run wide civ focused on conquest can just outproduce and destroy you. (Military city-state allies and unit purchasing can help you fend them off for a little while, but in a war of attrition they'll win - your economy is much more fragile than their production base.)

Basically, Venice isn't well-equipped to handle a strong enemy going for a science or domination victory, and those are really common strategies.

[Zevox]

Hey, Datsmore wants us to revert and let him back in. I'll do the second, but is everyone okay with the first?

So, are we doing this or not? Turn's back around to me, but I don't want to take it if it's just going to get reverted.

[Illven]

Spoiler: Sunday spectator update extravaganza!

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William has commanded us to explore these lands, to learn what threats and possibilities wait for us out here.



Our people have merely learned the arts of farming. Without the ability to store food. One bad year could lead to famine.



Here we see the glorious city of Amsterdam, settled on the great orange river. Where William of Orange takes his name.



The people debate. Shall we pursue the good old ways for as long as we can, or proclaim the freedom of every citizen.



The scholars say we are best in the world at Population, Crop yields, Manufactured goods, Land, Soldiers, and Literacy.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler: Spectators; last few turns summary

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Well, let's just head up this river and see



Oh. Right. You lot already had this spot. Carry on then. Must be the Counterweight Continent from the look of these fellers and the fact that they're throwing gold at us for no reason.

Well, I'm getting hungry, let's just hoof it back to where we know isn't taken, eh?¹




There we are, good old urbanization, saucy alleyways, people beating each other to death for copper, that style of thing.



Someone get to work on knocking down some of these trees and whacking that salt the whiner promised us out of the ground, will you? Make some picks or someat, I don't know how it works.



Oy, lookie there. More friendly locals. I wonder if they're gonna throw gold at us too.<sup>2

1</sup> Yes, I wasted 4 turns wandering around when I could have gotten to this spot in 2. At least it has some okay-ish not-gonna-be-stuck-in-the-dung-ages-the-entire-game food potential. Also, four unique luxes. Man I'd kill for this start if I was going to play wide.

² And my first neighbor is 1) very close and 2) datsmore's Japan. If this was AI Japan, I'd know to expect the Demon King of the Sixth Hell to rush me almost instantly just to see what I'm made of (sausage and fear), but it's possible that since we're talking multiplayer here I might survive all the way until datsmore researches Composite Bowmen. On the plus side, at least it's a foreign capital in easy caravan range even at the start of the game.

Spoiler: Japan;Datsmore

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Oi! Friendly greetings from the er...Hub? North? What the hell is "North", Jimmy? Anyway, nice seeing you all here, carry on, just looking around for a few business opportunities. Er...I'd say we could be penpals but I don't seem to have any ink and parchment on me...

[thatSeniorGuy]

Spoiler: Nerd-o-rama

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Hey Nerd-o-rama, spectator here. I just wanted to say thanks for your updates so far, as a Discworld fan I'm loving them I have a small, noob question though - in your first post, what did you mean by REXing? Short for rapid expansion, i.e. going for a wide empire?

And yeah, it seems that the start you got would have been fairly decent for any civilisation except Venice. I remember thinking, wait why does he want to move to the coast, he can just settle a second ci- oh. Ooooooooooh. But hey, at least you already have two options for trading close by. (Another noob question, should you find a city state on the ocean, will you be able to base cargo ships out of it if you puppet it?)

Regards,
thatSeniorGuy.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler: Nerd-o-rama

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Hey Nerd-o-rama, spectator here. I just wanted to say thanks for your updates so far, as a Discworld fan I'm loving them I have a small, noob question though - in your first post, what did you mean by REXing? Short for rapid expansion, i.e. going for a wide empire?

And yeah, it seems that the start you got would have been fairly decent for any civilisation except Venice. I remember thinking, wait why does he want to move to the coast, he can just settle a second ci- oh. Ooooooooooh. But hey, at least you already have two options for trading close by. (Another noob question, should you find a city state on the ocean, will you be able to base cargo ships out of it if you puppet it?)

Regards,
thatSeniorGuy.

Spoiler: Spectator Response

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REX = Rapid Early eXpansion, or "building as many cities as you can support as fast as you can", yes. It was a dominant strategy in Civ IV that was largely nerfed into oblivion for Civ V (where most people don't need to self-found more than 4 cities to win the game on any difficulty they're comfortable with), but it's still reasonable for aggressive strategies that rely on good Production (which I have scads of up here) or good Faith generation, or just generally for Civs with good unique buildings or extra benefits from covering lots of tiles.

And yes, that's going to have to be my plan - cargo ships out of my first puppet. Sadly, Puppets can't build the Colossus or East India Company (or any other National or World Wonder) so I'm a bit screwed in that regard, but I'll hopefully live without being able to play optimally.

[VoxRationis]

Spoiler: Nerd-O-Rama

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I really feel like Venice should have a strong start bias towards the coast. It's really unfortunate that you, already playing a limited civilization, are unable to use its abilities to their full potential (or even half potential, really).

[thatSeniorGuy]

Spoiler: Nerd-o-rama

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Thanks for the response! Good luck with the game, you'll need it!

[Illven]

I see how it is spectators! You can respond to Nerd-o-rama, but not Sunday spectator updates!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler: Nerd-O-Rama

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I really feel like Venice should have a strong start bias towards the coast. It's really unfortunate that you, already playing a limited civilization, are unable to use its abilities to their full potential (or even half potential, really).

Spoiler: Spectators

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They actually do (have a Coast bias AND an automatic first pick of starting location), but as I warned everyone, the Earth map disables start bias. I do hope you enjoy the Discworld jokes because I seriously nerfed myself volunteering to play these guys on this particular map.

[Mx.Silver]

I see how it is spectators! You can respond to Nerd-o-rama, but not Sunday spectator updates!

Well, clearly the mistake was choosing not to play your civ as a discworld reference

[Illven]

Spoiler: Sunday spectator update

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Chieftain William directed our scouting band of archers to meet new faces.



And lo, they did. A minor nation of the world.




Other squads are less successful.



Having finished the art of pottery. People are learning the art of domesticating these great beasts of the land.



Here we see the capital of Amsterdam, in it's glory.



The argument over government form is still happening. So many arguments. And only William to moderate them.



The seers declare that we are best in manufactured goods, Land, and Literacy, whatever that last one is. Also that we are worst in nothing.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler: Spectators

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No caps or RP but I just built a Scout and if I'd gone --ing right instead of --ing left I'd have spotted coast.

On the other hand this spot still has more luxes.

Spoiler: Polynesia;Silverraptor

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They're not showering us with gold either. I liked the first bunch of foreigners better. I mean uh, hullo there! Nice Spears lads. Very good use of flint...you don't, perchance, happen to know whereabouts we are, do you?

[Silverraptor]

Spoiler: Venice

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Hello Venice, nice to meet you. As for your question in knowing where you are, we don't even know where we are. And the most pressing matter of all is determinig where there is water, particularly oceans to settle. If you know of where ocean might be, if you let us know that would be most appreciated.

[Shishnarfne]

Spoiler: Spectators

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So, for those who hold that Carthage must not be destroyed:
It appears that I am starting in Central Africa, in jungles along the Congo/Zaire river, but removed from the coast.
I have plentiful luxury resources (Citrus and Spices!), and have had some success with Ancient Ruins.

I appear to be alone on my continent: I've found a few city-states along the Nile, and they are paying my Scout well; I'm still looking for a few wonderful coastal city locations to make use of my free harbors. I will still need to build road(s) to them to connect to Carthage itself.
With a free chunk of culture (Ruins within city boundaries are apparently discovered on city founding!), I am nearly at the point of picking up a Worker from Liberty (I'll go back for the free Settler later). A free map uncovered a decent chunk of the Atlantic Ocean to the south, but I was lucky enough to score the secret of the Calendar from another ruin (the turn that I finished Pottery, no less!), meaning that the no-jungle Citrus will have a plantation in no time!

I've sent my Scout along into the Arabian peninsula (I've sighted another city-state), and my warrior is scoping out the Cape region for city possibilities. Having finished my monument, I'm pushing out another Scout to see if there's a nice city spot or three to my Northwest.
I think that I can probably sneak out Stonehenge (having nailed Calendar about 6-8 turns early!), with Oral Tradition the most likely Pantheon pick.

Doing so would, of course, delay my ability to build Pyramids (yes, I like bonus workers!). Current research task: Mining.

I'll have to see how this goes. And add pictures next time.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Spoiler: Venice

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Hello Venice, nice to meet you. As for your question in knowing where you are, we don't even know where we are. And the most pressing matter of all is determinig where there is water, particularly oceans to settle. If you know of where ocean might be, if you let us know that would be most appreciated.

Spoiler: Polynesia

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Think we spotted some coast off to the...Turnwise? Hard to tell, anyway, off in that direction *gestures to the right on the map*, but a damn sight off.