The A4 waist 'challenge'

[Brother Oni]

So yet another fad has popped up on social media, where women are holding up a piece of A4 paper in front of their waist whilst taking a selfie and they 'pass' if their waist is hidden completely behind the 21cm of paper (8.27in for you Americans).

Ignoring camera tricks of holding the paper closer to the mirror, I'm inclined to think this is one of the more ridiculous ones which can only be passed with lucky genetics more than anything else. The woman whose challenge got picked up by media claimed that she and the other six 20 year old girls in her department passed it and that it's inappropriate to be used for Caucasians and other westerners since Chinese people tend to be slimmer anyway.

Checking with my 12 year old daughter who fits the ethnic requirements, she has a BMI of 20.8, which puts her in the 75th percentile of her age/weight band, making her perfectly healthy and she also fails it.*

So yet another example of popular culture's obsession with thinness .


*In case of people worrying that I'm giving my daughter body image problems, she's well used to my scientist nature of testing things experimentally, ever since I used her as a stabbing model to assess a Game of Thrones scene and chalks it up to 'silly daddy stuff'.

[Grinner]

I wouldn't worry too much about those sort of people. In one high-school English class, I remember sitting near a pair of girls who were into dieting; their highest aspiration in life, it seemed, was becoming trophy wives.

[TechnOkami]

As an American...


I don't care and continue to not care, because thinness fads and a need for skinniness does not define me nor my interest in others when it occurs.

[Kalmageddon]

Ugh...
This is really, really sad. There is absolutely no value in having your waist no larger than an A4 paper sheet, it's not even an indicator of how thin you are, it's just an arbitrary measure.

[The Succubus]

As fads go, this one seems rather plain. Get it? Plain? As in paper?

....never mind.

[Serpentine]

Checking with my 12 year old daughter who fits the ethnic requirements, she has a BMI of 20.8, which puts her in the 75th percentile of her age/weight band, making her perfectly healthy and she also fails it.*

Just as a heads up, BMI is a terrible predictor of individual health. It's designed for assessing whole populations, not individuals. The hip to waist ratio is much better, although I suspect that really only works for people on the far side of puberty (not sure if there's anything that really works for kids, aside from eyeballing each one directly).

I have never understood this idea of a universal "goal size" like "everyone wants to be size 0!" and that. I mean, I could lose all my weight, become dangerously underweight, strip off every little scrap of fat from my body, and I expect I'd still be a size 12(aus), minimum. Striving to be a size 8(aus) would be exactly as ridiculous as my trying to fit my size 9.5 foot into a size 6 shoe. Just ain't gonna happen, and I'm certainly not gonna kill myself trying.

[Blackhawk748]

As an American...


I don't care and continue to not care, because thinness fads and a need for skinniness does not define me nor my interest in others when it occurs.

Amen Okami. According to the BMI, i am apparently overweight, and apparently have been my entire life. For the record im 6'0" and just shy of 200 lbs, and have never considered myself overweight. Besides if i lost any weight id lose my insulation in winter

The fact that virtually every person i know would be overweight or on the high side of "Normal" leads me to call it a bunch of crap. As a friend once said "You can put a car body on a truck frame, but it sure as hell is gonna look stupid."

[Brother Oni]

Just as a heads up, BMI is a terrible predictor of individual health. It's designed for assessing whole populations, not individuals. The hip to waist ratio is much better, although I suspect that really only works for people on the far side of puberty (not sure if there's anything that really works for kids, aside from eyeballing each one directly).

I'm fully aware of the limitations of BMI and its use in population statistics, but as you've said for children, there's not much else you can use. Figuring out her position on a child/teen BMI percentile chart seems to be good start for a ballpark estimation though and it's what she was assessed against when she was smaller during her checkups.

I suspect you could use body fat percentage (measured through whatever means), but again that's of limited use on this side of puberty.


I'm also pretty much in the same boat as you - even if I went down to ~5% body fat like a on-season bodybuilder, I'd still be regarded as 'over weight' using the BMI classification.

The fact that virtually every person i know would be overweight or on the high side of "Normal" leads me to call it a bunch of crap.

I think the issue is that BMI is being used in ways that it shouldn't be and that popular science has propagated these fallacies. Within its limitations, it's a great tool; outside of it, it's of dubious use and if you're one of those outlier people without an 'average' frame, it's going to break completely.

In my case, I'm about the same weight as you (just over 14 stone) but much shorter at 5'7", so my BMI classification is 'moderately obese'.

[AMFV]

So yet another fad has popped up on social media, where women are holding up a piece of A4 paper in front of their waist whilst taking a selfie and they 'pass' if their waist is hidden completely behind the 21cm of paper (8.27in for you Americans).

Ignoring camera tricks of holding the paper closer to the mirror, I'm inclined to think this is one of the more ridiculous ones which can only be passed with lucky genetics more than anything else. The woman whose challenge got picked up by media claimed that she and the other six 20 year old girls in her department passed it and that it's inappropriate to be used for Caucasians and other westerners since Chinese people tend to be slimmer anyway.

Checking with my 12 year old daughter who fits the ethnic requirements, she has a BMI of 20.8, which puts her in the 75th percentile of her age/weight band, making her perfectly healthy and she also fails it.*

So yet another example of popular culture's obsession with thinness .


*In case of people worrying that I'm giving my daughter body image problems, she's well used to my scientist nature of testing things experimentally, ever since I used her as a stabbing model to assess a Game of Thrones scene and chalks it up to 'silly daddy stuff'.

Well there are certain things a person can do to make their waist slimmer, that don't necessarily involve losing weight. Also BMI is probably not something that one should use as a measurement of health, since it doesn't take into account body composition. Really a DEXA scan is about the only real way (although calipers are close). I'm not saying that a girl should have a ridiculously thin waist, but that wanting one isn't necessarily a bad thing, or that working towards that isn't either.

Just as a heads up, BMI is a terrible predictor of individual health. It's designed for assessing whole populations, not individuals. The hip to waist ratio is much better, although I suspect that really only works for people on the far side of puberty (not sure if there's anything that really works for kids, aside from eyeballing each one directly).

I have never understood this idea of a universal "goal size" like "everyone wants to be size 0!" and that. I mean, I could lose all my weight, become dangerously underweight, strip off every little scrap of fat from my body, and I expect I'd still be a size 12(aus), minimum. Striving to be a size 8(aus) would be exactly as ridiculous as my trying to fit my size 9.5 foot into a size 6 shoe. Just ain't gonna happen, and I'm certainly not gonna kill myself trying.

Well, there isn't really a universal goal size, but there are certainly trends, that advertisers use. I have more of an issue with people who complain about trying to make everybody happy with what size they are (many people aren't and won't be), instead of teaching them healthy ways to get to the body they want. There is certainly a lot of change a person can manage, although bone structure is a limiting factor. So I think the main issue is one of teaching people (especially teenagers) how to lose weight healthily or gain weight healthily or achieve goals within good health, as well as what is realistic.

[factotum]

I've tried four times to write this post and I can't think of a way to say what I mean. Suffice it to say I think this fad is as ridiculous as the whole stick-thin supermodel thing is.

[JustSomeGuy]

Apparently my bmi wants me between 8st 10lbs and 11st. Currently 17st 5lbs with a lifetime PR of 19st 7lbs, haven't been within those target figures since i was maybe 14ish. If only there was one tip trainers don't want me to know, or one weird trick to lose a stone! Doctors are furious with me!

Also, i wish someone could explain all this nonsense in a way that my wife would inderstand, it kills me to watch her go through the same old **** every now and again trying to emaciate herself because that's what famous women "look" like (after several professionals have spent hours improving their shots)

[ace rooster]

Firstly, as someone with a BMI of 18 who used to climb at a 7b level, I would reiterate that BMI is a useless measure of health. It does not reflect build at all. Even for whole populations it is not very good, because it assumes a certain distribution of builds that may not hold.

The following are some of my thoughts on are human coupling. I regard this as the one area of life where the genders do tend to behave differently, and so is the one topic of conversation where discussing the genders separately is appropriate. I will make some assertions that I believe, but I have very little evidence for any of them so they are very open to challenge (marked with a *). I am presenting them because I believe they are inextricably linked to body image, and understanding the modern obsession with it. Note that I don't think any of this is conscious, instead powerful instincts that exist in all life.

Modern western life is fairly post scarcity, and physical interactions are relatively few (dancing being the biggest one). Men don't seem to find professional success attractive in the same way that women do*, and men often don't respond to women openly 'competing' for their attention in a helpful way (they both want me? nice) *. Intellectual connections can only really occur once you have somebody's attention, and in evolutionary terms are a very recent development*. This doesn't leave much that women can do to attract someone initially. Their physical appearance is all that's really left*, so women will go to enormous lengths to 'improve' it * (this one does have evidence, the 2008 cosmetics turnover was 170 billion us$). A woman's weight will affect that appearance (less than most think), so it will be a concern. One thing that I have noticed is that body image insecurities are very diminished in people who don't rely on it, if they have a sport for example*.

Interestingly, the factors that seem to influence women in this direction are applying increasingly to men too, and we are seeing a big trend towards male grooming at the same time.

Basically, I think the only way we are going to move away from this obsession with physical appearance is to open up and celebrate other ways for people (women especially, but not exclusively) to be and feel sexy.

[factotum]

Even for whole populations it is not very good, because it assumes a certain distribution of builds that may not hold.

Any physicist will tell you that BMI is bunk. If you were to scale somebody to exactly twice their original size in every dimension, their weight would go up as the cube of that, e.g. they'd be 8 times as heavy--but because BMI uses the *square* of the height, their BMI would double! BMI only really works for people of average height, if you're very tall or very short then it will never be accurate.

[cobaltstarfire]

Man we have these things called internal organs and bones!

Oddly enough this reminds me of the body specifications they have in the air force for the folks who fly. My cousin is fit and healthy but has lots of trouble meeting some circumference specifications for his height or something like that (I think it's his neck and how big around his chest is?)

[Grinner]

As fads go, this one seems rather plain. Get it? Plain? As in paper?

....never mind.

I, for one, appreciate your punmanship.

[Brother Oni]

Oddly enough this reminds me of the body specifications they have in the air force for the folks who fly. My cousin is fit and healthy but has lots of trouble meeting some circumference specifications for his height or something like that (I think it's his neck and how big around his chest is?)

If he's airforce then part of the physical requirements is being able to fit into the aircraft's cockpit as the military can't modify an aircraft (and I guess the flight suit) that much for a single pilot.

I remember hearing an anecdote that there's a maximum height requirement to avoid the pilot being decapitated by the canopy during an emergency ejection.

[TechnOkami]

I, for one, appreciate your punmanship.

Easily seconded. I had a good giggle over it when I read it.

[cobaltstarfire]

He's not a pilot, I'm not sure what exactly he does other than that it involves the larger radar planes with multiple crew beyond the pilots. (he can fly drones, he's done the training to pilot but doesn't have the "touch" they want to fly actual planes? He has no idea what exactly that means and neither do I). Though yeah the planess are pretty cramped.

They bug/threatened him about it, but haven't prevented him from actually flying yet as far as I know. Which is in retrospect kind of weird, because it's one of the air forces favorite ways of discharging people. Even people they can't realistically replace.

He might not fly anymore? I haven't talked to him in a few years. He was training people last I heard, though he still flew. I know that much because apparently many new flyers don't believe him when he tells them they'll want to hang onto the barf bag cause mid-air refueling isn't really a forgiving ride if you know what I mean. (silly macho newbs)


I suppose what happened is he used to have the right measurements, but he got commissioned in his early 20's, and men aren't really fully grown/filled out till they're nearly 30 so I guess he filled out and suddenly was seriously pushing what is allowed to fly.

[ace rooster]

If he's airforce then part of the physical requirements is being able to fit into the aircraft's cockpit as the military can't modify an aircraft (and I guess the flight suit) that much for a single pilot.

I remember hearing an anecdote that there's a maximum height requirement to avoid the pilot being decapitated by the canopy during an emergency ejection.

My understanding is that you need to be able to tuck your legs under your seat without your knees protruding too much, or the instrument panel takes them off on the way out. You still survive, maybe, but not ideal if you land in enemy territory and have to walk back.

I would imagine that big military aircraft sail fairly close to the wind with regards to weight limits too. 10kg overweight might not sound like much, but multiply it by 70 personnel and you have a significant difference. While I doubt they would sack anyone over it, I could see them throwing hissy fits. Even muscle mass is dead weight in that job.

Thirding my appreciation of the pun.

[The Succubus]

I, for one, appreciate your punmanship.

Easily seconded. I had a good giggle over it when I read it.

Good. Would hate to think I was waisting my time.

[AMFV]

If he's airforce then part of the physical requirements is being able to fit into the aircraft's cockpit as the military can't modify an aircraft (and I guess the flight suit) that much for a single pilot.

I remember hearing an anecdote that there's a maximum height requirement to avoid the pilot being decapitated by the canopy during an emergency ejection.

That sounds like regular taping. Not actually the plane thing. That's just a body-fat approximation, and a rather bad one. The Air Force is surprisingly harsh (as harsh as the Marines), in regards to that. The height requirements are the pilot ones, but by the time you've finished all of your stuff you should be set as far height goes.

Man we have these things called internal organs and bones!

Oddly enough this reminds me of the body specifications they have in the air force for the folks who fly. My cousin is fit and healthy but has lots of trouble meeting some circumference specifications for his height or something like that (I think it's his neck and how big around his chest is?)

Neck to waist. You want a big neck and a small waist. It's not a pilot specific thing, it's service-wide through the entire military (although the ratio allowed varies).

[cobaltstarfire]

Then his neck probably the too big part, cause I can't remember him ever talking about his waist.

[AMFV]

Then his neck probably the too big part, cause I can't remember him ever talking about his waist.

Too small, his neck would be too small.

Edit: It's a ratio. The shoulder thing could be a pilot thing though, but that sounds like regular taping to me. Which just takes waist and neck measurements.

[cobaltstarfire]

If his neck is too small relative to the size of his waist I don't know what the air force wants because for someones neck to get any bigger relative to their body he'd have to have goiter or something. Either way it wasn't a reasonable expectation from the air force based on his body shape. Though they may recognize it cause they haven't used it as an excuse to discharge him yet.


(If I remember I'll ask him about it, it could well be that I'm mis-remembering though I think he's off on some sort of deployment right now so it may be a while before I get a chance)

[Grinner]

If his neck is too small relative to the size of his waist I don't know what the air force wants because for someones neck to get any bigger relative to their body he'd have to have goiter or something. Either way it wasn't a reasonable expectation from the air force based on his body shape. Though they may recognize it cause they haven't used it as an excuse to discharge him yet.


(If I remember I'll ask him about it, it could well be that I'm mis-remembering though I think he's off on some sort of deployment right now so it may be a while before I get a chance)

The military uses the neck-waist ratio in place of BMI.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theor.../a/bodyfat.htm

[Peelee]

While they won't openly state it, neck size can also be a trigger for sleep apnea. And some military insurance is great for stuff like that, there's a probably a differenve between a grunt and a fighter pilot having it.

These are the things i know way too much about, sadly.

[AMFV]

If his neck is too small relative to the size of his waist I don't know what the air force wants because for someones neck to get any bigger relative to their body he'd have to have goiter or something. Either way it wasn't a reasonable expectation from the air force based on his body shape. Though they may recognize it cause they haven't used it as an excuse to discharge him yet.


(If I remember I'll ask him about it, it could well be that I'm mis-remembering though I think he's off on some sort of deployment right now so it may be a while before I get a chance)

He probably has a naturally large waist (what the military considers large is very different than what the civilian world considers large), and the Air Force is VERY strict about that. So he probably had to work on making his neck bigger, as a naturally large bone structure person, I had to do the same when I was in the Marines.

[Ifni]

My brother was denied entry to the air force (in Australia, not the US) for being too thin - his BMI was below the minimums. He passed all the other physical tests, the ones that actually measure strength and stamina, but... too thin.

(They told him to go eat copious amounts of junk food for a month to bring his weight up, and then come back. He tried - and iirc he gained about half a kilo in total, which was not anywhere near enough, and he felt lousy. At that point he decided that he wasn't interested in a job that would require him to eat ridiculous quantities of bad food to be counted as "healthy". Some people have a pretty low stable healthy weight, just as some people have a higher one.)

[soldersbushwack]

60% of the North American population is overweight and 30% is obese. I approve of this twitter fad. Personally, I don't think people in developed countries are doing enough to stress healthy eating habits.

[Serpentine]

60% of the North American population is overweight and 30% is obese. I approve of this twitter fad. Personally, I don't think people in developed countries are doing enough to stress healthy eating habits.

There is a big, BIG difference between "you must be under this arbitrary size in order to be considered attractive" and "eat healthier, exercise more and try to stay within this range that current scientific knowledge suggests is the ideal for minimising one's risk of various health issues."
There is nothing healthy about "be this thin at all costs", and there is nothing healthy about "if you don't meet this ridiculous and arbitrary standard you're fat and ugly and worthless". Obesity absolutely is a big problem, but this Twitter fad and similar ones are only going to make this and other problems worse, not "stress healthy eating habits".

To use myself as an example again, I am a big girl. I mean, I'm fat, and that's a problem, but I'm also just a big person. In order to meet this ridiculous standard, I would have to starve and work myself down until I was dangerously underweight. I would probably make myself sick, would increase my risk of various health issues and diseases, and then would probably still fail this crap because my rib cage alone would be too big and thus as likely as not severely damage my mental health by feeling like a massive fat failure for not "succeeding" at something I never had a chance at, or would have to half-kill myself to achieve. There is nothing healthy about that. This isn't about health; it's about shame.