Is it just me, or is the Doctor kind of a douche?

[Darth Ultron]

B is a pretty hard one to NOT have in any kind of show, though. You need conflict to have drama, so you need an antagonist, which will normally be a monster or bad guy of some sort. Still, depending on what you consider a I can think of a few, just sticking to NuWho. Usually, though, there's something that seems like a monster, but turns out not to actually be monstrous or evil.

The Doctor very regularly runs into Bad Guys that are just Bad as they are Bad. It's why I list it as a common thing the Doctor encounters. And I'm not saying there are not episodes where there is no ''bad guy'', as there are some.....but they are rare and not common. You can sure not say a ''large'' number of episodes have no bad guy.

And Doctor Who is one of the few shows where you will see the complex ''just as something does not look exactly like a human does not mean it's not a person''. Sometimes. The rest of the time the Doctor just straight up murders, obliterates or commits genocide on anything non human.

[dps]

The Doctor very regularly runs into Bad Guys that are just Bad as they are Bad. It's why I list it as a common thing the Doctor encounters. And I'm not saying there are not episodes where there is no ''bad guy'', as there are some.....but they are rare and not common. You can sure not say a ''large'' number of episodes have no bad guy.

I'm not exactly sure what that first sentence there means. At any rate, I never said that there were "large" numbers of episodes with no bad guys, just that I can think of a few even just sticking to NuWho. My larger (and perhaps poorly articulated) point, though, was that having a villain of some sort is pretty much a standard part of story-telling, so it is hardly fair to criticize episodes of Doctor Who for having villains.

And Doctor Who is one of the few shows where you will see the complex ''just as something does not look exactly like a human does not mean it's not a person''. Sometimes. The rest of the time the Doctor just straight up murders, obliterates or commits genocide on anything non human.

Occasionally, he'll kill humans, too. Just ask Solomon the Trader--oh, wait, you can't, cause the Doctor blew him up. (At least, I assume he was human--he looked human, and I don't think there was anything in the episode suggesting that he wasn't).

[comicshorse]

This kinda makes me wonder if you even watch Doctor Who? The '' Doctor would go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes'' is just about every episode.

But, ok, can you name say five episodes where:

A)The Doctor does not go to a place at random
B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot
C)The Doctor has arrived, amazingly, right before the evil plot was to be completed
D)The Doctor does not ''do nothing'' for a good part of the middle of the episode
E)The Doctor does not just ''run away'' from whatever he encounters
F)The Doctor does not Duex Ex Doctor a way to win in the last couple minutes

A) The Ribos Operation, The Pirate Planet, The Stones of Blood, The Androids of Tara, The Power of Kroll, The Armageddon Factor otherwise known as Season 17
Also picked because it is the consequence of this season that lead the Doctor to install the randomizer in the Tardis that would send it to places at ...random
It's not a bug it's a feature
( I could also include all the Pertwee episodes where he can't leave earth or the majority of NuWho)

B) As has been pointed out you need conflict to make a drama, you might as well ask for a episode of Starsky and Hutch where they don't encounter a criminal

C) Father's Day, The Empty Child, Blink, The Face of Evil, The Sun Makers, The Masque of Mandagora (off the top of my head)

D) Absolutely only applies to NuWho ( if at all) so just take all the episodes I mentioned so far

E) If they've got guns (or weird powers) and you haven't running away ensures not dying. But : End of the World, Boom Town, The Long Game, Black Orchid, Curse of Peladon

F) This very much depends on your definition of 'Deus Ex'. The Doctor usually gathers information/acts enabling him to come to a conclusion as to what to do at the end. This is not a Deus Ex

And Doctor Who is one of the few shows where you will see the complex ''just as something does not look exactly like a human does not mean it's not a person''. Sometimes. The rest of the time the Doctor just straight up murders, obliterates or commits genocide on anything non human.

While this very occasionally happens to describe it as 'the rest of the time' is a massive exageration

[Cikomyr]

I suppose we could add The Ennemy of the World to C. He shows up while the Evil Plan is well underway, and no critical junction planned.


...i liked Nine. Ecclestone made him have momentum in his energy, where Ten is manic for manic's sake.

When Nine was agitated, it was for goddamn heavy reason. He was judgemental, but he also left room for people to redeem themselves.

...i miss Nine.. :(

[DJ Yung Crunk]

This kinda makes me wonder if you even watch Doctor Who? The '' Doctor would go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes'' is just about every episode.

But, ok, can you name say five episodes where:

A)The Doctor does not go to a place at random
B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot
C)The Doctor has arrived, amazingly, right before the evil plot was to be completed
D)The Doctor does not ''do nothing'' for a good part of the middle of the episode
E)The Doctor does not just ''run away'' from whatever he encounters
F)The Doctor does not Duex Ex Doctor a way to win in the last couple minutes

Wow, you've got a pretty ****ty attitude. Yes, I've watched Doctor Who. The same could apply to you. It's disappointingly easy to contradict you here.

A) Castrovalva, The Mind Robber, Arc of Infinity, The Ultimate Foe, The Deadly Assassin, Genesis of the Daleks, The Edge of Destruction, all of season 16, Logopolis, The Curse of Fenric, every Third Doctor episode, The Twin Dilemma. Not sure why this is a negative trait. Feels like clocking Star Trek for taking place in space.
B) Really, give me a chance. Yes. I will concede this one. Doctor Who does, indeed, use conflict as the main thrust of it's plot. You have me dead to rights. Now, name a Simpsons episode that doesn't have any jokes.
C) Marco Polo, Castrovalva, Kinda, Snakedance, Edge of Destruction, every Third Doctor serial, all of season 16, all of season 23, The Curse of Fenric, The Aztecs, Enemy of the World, Underworld, Mawdryn Undead, The Invasion of Time, Blink, Listen, Paradise Towers, Planet of Giants, The Ark, Enlightenment, Vengeance on Varos, The Sun Makers, The Happiness Patrol, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, Frontios, The Reign of Terror
D) This is vaguely defined. I can only guess what definition you're running with, but it'd be easier for me to list the ones that actually do have him do nothing for great stretches of episode. For my recollection I can think of Turn Left, Blink and Revelation of the Daleks. In all three cases his absence from the plot is something of a major appeal.
E) Ah yes. The objectionable little storytelling cliche of self preservation. It's so unrealistic, isn't it? Anyway... The Seeds of Death, Pyramids of Mars, Attack of the Cybermen, Invasion of Time, The Caves of Androzani, The Face of Evil, Marco Polo, Kinda, Snakedance, The Mind Robber, Genesis of the Daleks, Meglos, The Time Monster, The Curse of Fenric
F) The Curse of Fenric, Marco Polo, Castrovalva, Enlightenment, Doctor Who and the Silurians, Warriors of the Deep, The Ark In Space, The Talons of Weng Chiang, Black Orchid, The War Games, The Aztecs, Underworld, Genesis of the Daleks, Revelation of the Daleks, Enlightenment.

Just off the top of my head, mind.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore. You're too biased to be properly informed and it does nobody any good to have a conversation with the wilfully uninformed. You're entitled to your opinion, but try not to pass it off as fact in the future, okay?

[Aedilred]

Now, name a Simpsons episode that doesn't have any jokes.

Bart to the Future Although, to be fair, I don't think that was by design.

[Eldan]

Let's see. Mainly going by Audios, as that's mosto f what I know:

A) A lot of seventh Doctor stories seem to have a plot along the lines of:
Companion: Where are we, Doctor?
Doctor: Oh, we'll seeeeee.... *mysterious*
Companion: Oh no, bad things are going down!
Doctor: All according to plan.

Occasionally, the doctor is also invited somewhere. Oh, and the Fifth Doctor would visit historical cricket matches.

B) Not sure if that's your question, but there's some stories that are more about politics than about good and evil. Historicals are good for that. Say, Son of the Dragon, about Vlad Dracul. Or The Council of Nikea, about Emperor Constantine.
Or there's natural disasters to be avoided. Again, no evil. Pompeii. Not in the NuWho story The Fires of Pompeii. The other time they went there. Forgot the title. Also, too many crashing space ships to count.
Or the whole thing is a mistake, where aliens are assumed to be evil, but it's a misunderstanding.

C) Plenty. Well anwered above

D) Define "do nothing". Chatting to people to get to know the situation counts as "something" to me.

E) Seriously? Hm. Okay, just my phone playlist of the last ten things I listened to. Robophobia. The Curse of Davros. The Doomday Quatrain. House of Blue Fire. The Emerald Tiger.

F) I can't really think of much Deus Exing much, really. Deus Ex means a new supernatural (or almost supernatural) thing comes in that was never previously mentioned. THe Doctor usually investigates and then uses a weakness of the bad guy, or builds up to a solution.

[digiman619]

...i liked Nine. Ecclestone made him have momentum in his energy, where Ten is manic for manic's sake.

When Nine was agitated, it was for goddamn heavy reason. He was judgemental, but he also left room for people to redeem themselves.

...i miss Nine.. :(

I agree. Of NuWho, 9 was my favorite. Matt Smith's 11 was interesting, character wise, but by then the show was going in directions that peeved me off.

[Reddish Mage]

I wonder how many episodes Darth Ultron can cite that actually fulfills his conditions.

[dps]

F) I can't really think of much Deus Exing much, really. Deus Ex means a new supernatural (or almost supernatural) thing comes in that was never previously mentioned. THe Doctor usually investigates and then uses a weakness of the bad guy, or builds up to a solution.

In all fairness, though, while the sonic screwdriver might not technically be a Deus Ex (it certainly gets mentioned a lot), the way it's used to solve the problem of the week often is. The worst example would probably be "The Power of Three", but it's hardly the only one.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm not exactly sure what that first sentence there means. At any rate, I never said that there were "large" numbers of episodes with no bad guys, just that I can think of a few even just sticking to NuWho. My larger (and perhaps poorly articulated) point, though, was that having a villain of some sort is pretty much a standard part of story-telling, so it is hardly fair to criticize episodes of Doctor Who for having villains.

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.

And there are otherways to tell a story without a Bad Guy...

I wonder how many episodes Darth Ultron can cite that actually fulfills his conditions.

Well, other then some of the ones they mentioned....well, every single other episode. And saying ''every single third doctor one'' is a bit silly.

And there is a lot of vagueness of ''doing nothing'' and ''running away'', for example. The Doctor spends a lot of the middle of most episodes doing things like ''having tea'' and not ''trying to save/help people and/or oppose the big bad whatever''. But I guess if people what to be ''that way'', it can be said that ''drinking tea'' is doing something.

F) I can't really think of much Deus Exing much, really. Deus Ex means a new supernatural (or almost supernatural) thing comes in that was never previously mentioned. THe Doctor usually investigates and then uses a weakness of the bad guy, or builds up to a solution.

So how about ''looking into the heart of the TARDIS and becoming god''?

[Aedilred]

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.

...


Well, other then some of the ones they mentioned....well, every single other episode. And saying ''every single third doctor one'' is a bit silly.

I don't have a stake in this discussion one way or another, but this approach to and line of argument is so borderline-insultingly terrible that I'm finding myself disagreeing with you just on general principle.

Your initial assertion was that no more than five episodes met the criteria. Many more than five examples have been given. Meanwhile you have yet to name one, but are dismissing all of those mentioned as somehow irrelevant because "the vast majority" still support your case. I mean, technically, you've backed yourself into a position where even one further counterexample on top of those already mentioned would explode your case completely, but firstly I have no doubt you'd still try to claim it didn't count and secondly I feel enough evidence has already been provided that you should at least be bearing some of the burden from this point onwards.

[rooster707]

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.

B is a pretty hard one to NOT have in any kind of show, though. You need conflict to have drama, so you need an antagonist, which will normally be a monster or bad guy of some sort. Still, depending on what you consider a I can think of a few, just sticking to NuWho. Usually, though, there's something that seems like a monster, but turns out not to actually be monstrous or evil.

[comicshorse]

Well, other then some of the ones they mentioned....well, every single other episode.

This is (as others pointed out) still not actually producing any examples. Nor have you any in any way produced any argument as to which of the 'one's mentioned' in any way fit your argument or indeed why any episode fits your argument let alone the majority

So how about ''looking into the heart of the TARDIS and becoming god''?

Congratulations you came up with an example. Of course one out of literally hundreds of episodes hardly matches you're assertion that these occur in the 'vast majority' of the stories

[dps]

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.

No, when I said "a few" I meant "a few". I never said anything about "a large number of episodes". See rooster707's post in which he quotes me.

[Cikomyr]

So how about ''looking into the heart of the TARDIS and becoming god''?

The Heart of the TARDIS was already established to have godlike powers in a previous episode. So its not "deus ex machina". Doesn't mean you have to like it.

[ChrissP]

Very interesting! Thanks so much

[turkishproverb]

B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot

B) Really, give me a chance. Yes. I will concede this one. Doctor Who does, indeed, use conflict as the main thrust of it's plot. You have me dead to rights. Now, name a Simpsons episode that doesn't have any jokes.

B) Not sure if that's your question, but there's some stories that are more about politics than about good and evil. Historicals are good for that. Say, Son of the Dragon, about Vlad Dracul. Or The Council of Nikea, about Emperor Constantine.
Or there's natural disasters to be avoided. Again, no evil. Pompeii. Not in the NuWho story The Fires of Pompeii. The other time they went there. Forgot the title. Also, too many crashing space ships to count.
Or the whole thing is a mistake, where aliens are assumed to be evil, but it's a misunderstanding.

Paul Cornell's Autumn meets the bill. No villains, not even really politics. Sure there are more, but I just recently experienced that one again. He and Mike Maddox's Summer probably fits too.

So does The Marian Conspiracy which makes the historical "Bloody Mary" a thought out sympathetic character who doesn't quite fit the evil or even "villain" role well.

Mary's Story by Jonathan Morris doesn't have a big villain, it has a damaged person, but he's depicted more as needing help than a villain.

Urgent Calls is about people, really, and the only antagonist to appear is more offhanded reference than a prime villain. There is a disease, mind, of a sort. Heck, that one is free.

[Reddish Mage]

The Heart of the TARDIS was already established to have godlike powers in a previous episode. So its not "deus ex machina". Doesn't mean you have to like it.

Eh, it's still Deus Ex if there's no build up to it occurring.


lots of people call everything Deus Ex or anything they don't like or understand. Others think nothing is Deus Ex but it is very clear that Deus Ex refers to a plot device that comes out of left field to resolve the episode. If there's a natural segue, a build up, a hint here and there "how can she make a soufflé without any eggs!" It's not really "out of nowhere."

However a god-device utilized in one episode as a one-off isn't really fair game all the dang time. So I call some of the episodes where the TARDIS comes out of nowhere and saves the day Deus Ex, especially when the tardis suddenly acquires new abilities (remote control anyone? How about mind of its own?) that are curiously absent in later episodes it would be really useful.

So yes. The TARDIS is a pretty darn common Deus Ex and I think it's more blatantly a Deus Ex in that "left field out of nowhere last minute" way than the sonic screwdriver.

[Wardog]

I've recently started getting into Doctor Who, but I can't stop thinking that he's kinda sanctimonious, and a hypocrite. The tenth doctor in particular seems douchy in Journey's End when he demonized his clone for killing off the Daleks. Dur to the fact that, unless they stopped them, the Daleks would destroy ALL OF EXISTENCE! Furthermore, even though it was reconned away, the Doctor has no moral leg to stand on, as, to stop the Time War, HE COMMITTED DOUBLE GENOCIDE!

And on a smaller scale, killing the Racnoss's offspring when the Racnoss herself wouldn't make peace.

I get that they're going for the "war is hell" Aesop, but they do it to such an extreme that it stops being "War is Hell" and ends up being "Soldiers are Evil"!

Ten himself often seems to be implying that, but I think the show itself is much more supporting of soldiering. Consider for example The Poison Sky, when UNIT finally work out how to fight the Soltarans, the Doctor tries to persuade them not to, and they ignore him, and it is glorious. (See this clip, then this one from 1:40).