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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Feat Point System

    So, I'm finally getting back into tabletop gaming (specifically GMing this time around) and want to revamp an old project I haven't touched in two years, maybe even finish it this time around.

    So, from the original thread:

    Spoiler: To start things off, here's SKR original mechanics
    Show

    Feat Points
    Each time a character gains a feat, she instead gets 10 feat points which she can use to purchase feats. Characters must still meet all prerequisites as normal. Unspent feat points carry over from level to level, but a character can only purchase feats with feat points at the times in her adventuring career when she could normally select a feat, even if she has extra feat points left over (for example, a character with 6 feat points left over from character level 3 could not spend them until level 6--the next level at which she gains a feat) .


    A class that grants bonus feats grants bonus feat points of the appropriate type. For example, the fighter class gives 10 fighter feat points at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, and so on. Typed feat points can only be used on feats of the appropriate type, so a fighter can only use his fighter feat points to purchase fighter feats. However, any normal (typeless) feat points can be combined with typed feat points to purchase typed feats. You can still only use these feat points to purchase feats of the type you could normally purchase at that level.
    Example:Tegdar is a human ftr1 with 3 typeless feat points left over from 1st level. He reaches 2nd level and gains 10 fighter feat points. Tegdar decides to use 7 of those points to purchase Combat Reflexes (cost: 7 points) , leaving him with 3 fighter feat points and 3 normal feat points. He decides to combine these feat points and purchase Far Shot (cost: 6points) . He now is completely out of feat points. He could not have used his 3 normal feat points to purchase feats other than fighter feats because he can only select those feats at level 1, 3, 6, and so on.

    Feat Point Debt
    At 1st level, and 1st level only, a character is allowed to overspend her feat points by selecting one or more feats with a cost of 11 or more feat points. The extra cost of these feats is carried over until the next time she gains feat points of the appropriate type. She can go into "feat point debt" up to 3 points. Feat point debt is tracked separately by type of feat point (typeless, fighter, wizard, etc.) .The feat point debt system allows characters using it to maintain parity with characters who don't (characters using the standard rules could sometimes end up with several strong feats at 1st level, penalizing the feat-point character) .

    Example: Vidda, a halflingrog1, has 10 feat points. She selects Two-Weapon Fighting (11 points) and goes into feat point debt by for point. The next time she gains typeless feat points (3rd level) she only gains 9instead of 10 because of the 1-point debt. She gains the normal 10 feat points at levels 6, 9, and so on.
    Example:Tegdar, a human ftr1, has 20 typeless feat points (10 from being1st-level, 10 from being human) and 10 fighter feat points. He chooses Point Blank Shot (9 points) and Two-Weapon Fighting with his typless feat points, which brings his typeless feat points to 0 (if there were a 12-point feat he qualified for, he could have selected that instead of Two-Weapon fighting, which would have put him in debt for 1feat point) . He purchases Rapid Shot (11 points) with his fighter feat points, which puts him in debt for one fighter feat point. At 2ndlevel, he gains 9 fighter feat points instead of 10 because of the1-point debt. He gains the normal 10 fighter feat points at fighter level 4, 6, and so on. His typeless feat points (at level 3, 6, and soon) are unaffected (though if he had chosen a 12-point feat instead of Two-Weapon Fighting he would have paid that typeless feat point debt at level 3 when he gained more feat points) .


    Virtual Feats
    Virtual feats, such as those conditional feats granted by the monk and ranger classes, do not grant feat points, cost feat points, or cause or negate feat point debt.



    Tiers

    Spoiler: Tier 6
    Show

    Tier 6 represents feats that are either incredibly niche in their function, more fluff than actual substance or are actual detriments to the characters who take them.
    Cost Guideline: 1 point

    • Altitude Affinity
    • Ammo Drop
    • Archon Style
    • Armor Proficiency, Heavy
    • Armor Proficiency, Light
    • Armor Proficiency, Medium
    • Blood Ties
    • Burning Spell
    • Caustic Slur
    • Conviction
    • Corsair
    • Critical Conduit
    • Desert Dweller
    • Dog Killer, Horse Hunter
    • Draconic Discipline
    • Drugged Healing
    • Druidic Decoder
    • Eschew Materials
    • Exotic Weapon Proficiency
    • Experienced Vagabond
    • Expert Driver
    • Eyes of Judgement
    • Fast Crawl
    • Feral Combat Training
    • Flagbearer
    • Fury's Fall
    • Groundling
    • Galley Slave
    • Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
    • Hymn Singer
    • Imperial Conscript
    • Improved Day Job
    • Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    • Intimidating Prowess
    • Juggle Load
    • Jumper
    • Leaf Singer
    • Letter Fury
    • Life-Dominant Soul
    • Lithe Attacker [Note: This feat is almost never able to be taken by PCs. If taken by animal companions, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
    • Master of Falconry
    • Master of Wonders
    • Master of Your Kind [Note: This feat is not able to be taken by PCs. If taken by a Familiar, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
    • Narrow Frame [Note: This feat is almost never able to be taken by PCs. If taken by animal companions, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
    • Ostentatious Display
    • Pass for Human
    • Potent Holy Symbol
    • Precocious Youth
    • Quick Preparation
    • Razortusk
    • Reject Poison
    • Renown [Note: This feat is only for Pathfinder Society and as such should not be allowed in normal games.]
    • Revered Guidance
    • Rugged Northerner
    • Sandwalker
    • Schooled Reserve
    • Skilled Driver
    • Stable Gallop
    • Storm-Lashed
    • Superintendant
    • Supernal Feast
    • Sure-Footed
    • Sure Grasp
    • Sword Oath
    • Terrifying Mask
    • Torch Handling
    • Tribe Mentality
    • Two-Weapon Fighting
    • Urban Forager
    • Valiant Steed
    • Vandal (Goblin)
    • Variant Prayer-Scroll
    • Wall of Flesh (Teamwork)


    Spoiler: Tier 5
    Show

    Tier 5 represents feats that are functional as they're written, but are rarely, if ever, optimal character choices outside of certain context.
    Cost Guideline: 3 points


    • Acrobatic
    • Advanced Defensive Combat Training
    • Agile Maneuvers
    • Alignment Channel
    • Amateur Gunslinger
    • Ancestral Scorn
    • Animal Affinity
    • Ankle Biter
    • Antagonize
    • Arc Slinger
    • Arcane Armor Training
    • Arcane Insight
    • Arcane Strike
    • Arcane Trap Suppressor
    • Arcane Vendetta
    • Archon Diversion
    • Aspect of the Beast
    • Athletic
    • Aversion Tolerance
    • Babble-Peddler
    • Back to Back
    • Banishing Critical
    • Banner of Doom
    • Bashing Finish
    • Battle Singer
    • Bear Hug
    • Beartrap Bite
    • Bend with the Wind
    • Betraying Blow
    • Binding Throw
    • Black Marketeer
    • Blade Binder
    • Blazing Aura
    • Bleeding Attack
    • Bleeding Critical
    • Blighted Critical (Critical)
    • Blinding Critical
    • Blinding Flash
    • Blinding Light
    • Blistering Feint
    • Bloodletting
    • Bloody Assault
    • Bloody Vengeance
    • Blowout Shot Deed (Grit)
    • Bludgeoner
    • Boar Ferocity
    • Boar Style
    • Body Control
    • Bodyguard
    • Body Mastery
    • Body Shield
    • Bolster Jinx
    • Bonebreaker
    • Bounding Hammer
    • Breadth of Experience
    • Break Guard
    • Brutal Grappler
    • Bull Rush Strike
    • Bullseye Shot
    • Bullying Blow
    • Burn! Burn! Burn!
    • Catch Off-guard
    • Cautious Fighter
    • Chain-flail Master
    • Channeling Scourge
    • Channel Smite
    • Charge of the Righteous
    • Charge Through
    • Charging Hurler
    • Chokehold
    • Claw Pounce
    • Cleave
    • Cleaving Finish
    • Close Call
    • Close-Quarters Thrower
    • Cloud Step
    • Cloven Helm
    • Coaxing Spell
    • Cockatrike Strike
    • Cold Celerity
    • Combat Distraction
    • Combat Expertise
    • Combat Style Master
    • Combat Medic
    • Companion Figurine
    • Coordinated Maneuvers
    • Cornugon Shield
    • Cornugon Smash
    • Cornugon Stun
    • Cornugon Trip
    • Cosmopolitan
    • Covering Defense
    • Create Reliquary Arms and Shields
    • Crippling Critical
    • Critical Focus
    • Crossbow Mastery
    • Crusader's Fist - Why?
    • Crusdaer's Flurry
    • Crushing Blow
    • Cursed Item Detection
    • Cut Your Losses
    • Dampen Presence
    • Dark Adept
    • Darting Viper
    • Deadly Dealer
    • Deadly Stroke
    • Deafening Critical
    • Death or Glory
    • Deathless Initiate
    • Deathless Master
    • Deathless Zealot
    • Deceitful
    • Deep Drinker
    • Deflect Arrows
    • Deft Hands
    • Deft Shootist Deed
    • Demoralizing Lash
    • Dented Helm
    • Deny Death
    • Dervish Dance
    • Desperate Battler
    • Desperate Swing
    • Destroyer's Blessing
    • Devastating Strike
    • Diehard
    • Dilettante
    • Dimensional Assault
    • Dimension Dervish
    • Dimensional Maneuvers
    • Dimensional Savant
    • Dire Bat Shape
    • Disarming Strike
    • Disengaging Feint
    • Disengaging Flourish
    • Disengaging Shot
    • Disorienting Blow
    • Dispelling Critical (Critical)
    • Dispelling Fist
    • Disposable Weapon
    • Disrupting Shot
    • Distance Thrower
    • Divine Denouncer
    • Double Bane
    • Double Slice
    • Draconic Defender
    • Drag Down
    • Dragonbane Aura
    • Dragonheart
    • Drugged Euphoria
    • Drunken Brawler
    • Dueling Mastery
    • Duelist
    • Echoing Spell
    • Efreeti Stance
    • Efreeti Style
    • Efreeti Touch
    • Eldritch Claws
    • Elemental Fist
    • Elephant Stomp
    • Elusive Redirection
    • Elven Battle Training
    • Endurance
    • Enforcer
    • Enhanced Ki Throw
    • Ensemble (Teamwork)
    • Equipment Trick
    • Exploit Lore
    • Extra Evolution
    • Extra Feature
    • Extra Gnome Magic
    • Extra Ki
    • False Casting
    • False Opening
    • Famine Tolerance
    • Far Shot
    • Fast Drinker
    • Fast Healer
    • Favored Judgement
    • Fearsome Barricade
    • Feinting Flurry
    • Felling Escape
    • Felling Smash
    • Ferocious Tenacity
    • Fiendish Darkness
    • Fiendish Facade
    • Fiendish Heritage
    • Fiendish Resilience
    • Final Embrace
    • Final Embrace Master
    • Fight On
    • Firebrand
    • Fire God's Blessing
    • Fire Hand
    • Fleet
    • Focused Shot
    • Fortified Armor Training
    • Fortunate Manager
    • Fortunate Ruler
    • Fox Shape
    • Fury of the Tainted
    • Fury's Snare
    • Giant Killer
    • Gloom Strike
    • Glorious Heat [Note: If the unofficial errata is not used, this feat is Tier 1.]
    • Gnome Weapon Focus
    • Gnome Trickster
    • Goblin Cleaver
    • Goblin Gunslinger
    • Golden Legion's Stayed Blade
    • Gorefriend
    • Gorgon's Fist
    • Gory Finish
    • Great Cleave
    • Great Hatred
    • Greater Channel Smite
    • Greater Grapple
    • Greater Mercy
    • Great Fortitude
    • Grudge Fighter
    • Gunsmithing
    • Gliding Steps
    • Halfling Slinger
    • Hamatula Grasp
    • Hamatula Strike
    • Hamatulatsu Strike
    • Hammer the Gap
    • Hard-headed
    • Harmonic Sage
    • Harmonic Spell
    • Harrowed
    • Haunted Gnome
    • Haunted Gnome Assault
    • Heighten Spell
    • Hellcat Pounce
    • Helpless Prisoner
    • Heroic Defiance
    • Heroic Recovery
    • Hex Strike
    • Hold the Blade
    • Horse Master
    • Impact Critical Shot
    • Impaling Critical
    • Imperial Squire
    • Improved Back to Back
    • Improved Dirty Trick
    • Improved Disarm
    • Improved Drag
    • Improved Feinting Flurry
    • Improved Fiendish Darkness
    • Improved Fury of the Tainted
    • Improved Grapple
    • Improved Impaling Critical
    • Improved Ki Throw
    • Improved Low Blow
    • Improved Stalwart
    • Improved Stonecunning
    • Improved Surprise Follow-Through
    • Improved Two-Weapon Feint
    • Improvised Weapon Mastery
    • Inner Light
    • Intimidating Gaze
    • Invoke Primal Instinct
    • Ironguts
    • Ironhide
    • Iron Will
    • Island Blood
    • Jawbreaker
    • Ki Diversity
    • Ki Stand
    • Ki Throw
    • Knockout Artist
    • Kobold Ambusher
    • Kobold Sniper
    • Landing Roll
    • Large Target
    • Lead from the Back
    • Leaping Shot Deed
    • Learn Ranger Trap
    • Legacy of Heroes
    • Let Them Come
    • Life Lure
    • Lightning Reflexes
    • Light Step
    • Lookout
    • Low Profile
    • Mark of Evil
    • Master Alchemist
    • Meditation Master
    • Meditative Concentration
    • Merciless Rush
    • Monstrous Mask
    • Mystic Stride
    • Named Bullet (Grit)
    • Nature Soul
    • Neckbreaker
    • Nimble Moves [Note: GMs are advised to refund the cost of this feat and its subsequent feat, as it is invalidated by the third part in the chain.]
    • No Name (Grit)
    • Oracular Intuition
    • Persuasive
    • Phalanx Fighter (Teamwork)
    • Planar Hunter
    • Power Attack
    • Prodigy
    • Pure Faith
    • Radiant Charge
    • Raging Brutality
    • Raging Hurler
    • Raging Throw
    • Reward of Grace
    • Ricochet Shot Deed (Grit)
    • Ricochet Splash Weapon
    • Righteous Healing
    • Roof Runner
    • Run
    • Scholar
    • Sea Legs
    • Secret Signs
    • Secret Stash Deed
    • Seeds of Doubt
    • Selective Spell
    • Self-Sufficient
    • Shake It Off
    • Shapeshifter Foil
    • Shared Insight
    • Sharp Senses
    • Sickening Critical
    • Signature Deed
    • Sin Seer
    • Sly Draw
    • Smell Fear
    • Sneaking Precision
    • Sneaky Vagabond
    • Sniper Shot
    • Sociable
    • Spear Dancer
    • Spider Step
    • Splintering Weapon
    • Squash Flat
    • Staggering Critical
    • Stalwart
    • Stealthy
    • Steel Soul
    • Stoic
    • Stone Faced
    • Stone Read
    • Stone Singer
    • Strong Comeback
    • Summoner's Call
    • Sunlit Strike
    • Survivor
    • Swift Kitsune Shapechanger (Kitsune)
    • Team Pickpocket
    • Thoughtful Discernment
    • Tiring Critical
    • Totem Spirit
    • Tribal Scars
    • Ultimate Resolve
    • Uncanny Alertness
    • Undermining Exploit
    • Unsanctioned Detection
    • Vermin Empathy
    • Vigilant Eidolon
    • Voice of the Sibyl
    • Walker Among Evil
    • War Singer
    • Warrior Priest
    • Weapon Finesse
    • Well-Prepared
    • Whip-Shot Deed (Grit)
    • Widen Spell




    Spoiler: Tier 4
    Show

    Tier 4 represents feats that are well written and decent character build options. They are even chosen most of the time for most builds, but are ultimately less powerful and/or less useful than actual class features. Feats that grant multiple uses of lesser class features also fall under this tier.
    Cost Guideline: 5 points


    • Acrobatic Steps
    • Adept Champion
    • Adept Channel
    • Advanced Ranger Trap
    • Allied Spellcaster
    • Amplified Rage
    • Animal Ally
    • Arcane School Spirit
    • Arcane Shield
    • Arcane Talent
    • Atheist Abjurations
    • Betrayer
    • Blighted Critical Mastery
    • Blind-Fight
    • Blundering Defense
    • Boar Shred
    • Bolstered Resistance
    • Broken Wing Gambit
    • Butterfly Sting (Critical)
    • Careful Speaker
    • Cartwheel Dodge
    • Childlike
    • Cleave Through
    • Clustered Shots
    • Combat Patrol
    • Combat Reflexes
    • Conceal Scent
    • Concussive Spell
    • Coordinated Defense
    • Create Sanguine Elixir
    • Critical Mastery
    • Critical Versatility
    • Dazing Assault
    • Dazzling Display
    • Deadly Aim
    • Death from Above
    • Deceptive Exchange
    • Deepsight
    • Defending Eidolon
    • Demon Hunter
    • Die for Your Master
    • Discordant Voice
    • Disorienting Maneuver
    • Disruptive Spell
    • Divination Guide
    • Divine Defiance
    • Dodge
    • Dragoncrafting
    • Drugged Rejuvenation
    • Duck and Cover (Teamwork)
    • Eagle Eyes
    • Eldritch Eye
    • Eldritch Heritage
    • Elemental Focus
    • Elemental Spell
    • Elven Accuracy
    • Empower Spell
    • Escape Route (Teamwork)
    • Exhausting Critical
    • Extra Bane
    • Extra Cantrips or Orisons
    • Extra Grit
    • Extra Ranger Trap
    • Extra Rogue Talent
    • Fast Change
    • Fast Empathy
    • Favored Defense
    • Fearless Aura
    • Fearsome Finish
    • Fey Foundling
    • Field Repair
    • Final Embrace Horror
    • Fire Magic
    • Flaring Spell
    • Focused Discipline
    • Focused Eidolon
    • Following Step
    • Free Spirit
    • Friendly Switch
    • Friend to Animals
    • Furious Finish
    • Gang Up
    • Godless Healing
    • Greater Blighted Critical
    • Greater Dirty Trick
    • Greater Drag
    • Greater Elemental Focus
    • Greater Feint
    • Greater Wild Empathy
    • Gunslinger
    • Haunted Gnome Shroud
    • Improved Channel
    • Improved Counterspell
    • Improved Critical
    • Improved Feint
    • Improved Great Fortitude
    • Improved Initiative
    • Improved Iron Will
    • Improved Lightning Reflexes
    • In Harm's Way
    • Inner Flame
    • Intensify Spell
    • Intimidating Bane
    • Jackal Heritage
    • Jaguar Pounce
    • Jinxed Spell
    • Keen Scent
    • Lightning Stance
    • Lingering Performance
    • Lucky Halfling
    • Lucky Strike
    • Lunge
    • Magical Aptitude
    • Magical Tail
    • Master Craftsmen
    • Master of the Ledger
    • Maximize Spell
    • Maximized Spellstrike
    • Menacing Bane
    • Merciful Bane
    • Minotaur's Charge
    • Moonlight Summons
    • Natural Ruler
    • Necromatic Affinity
    • Nimble Natural Summons
    • Peshish Magic
    • Powerful Shape
    • Practiced Tactician
    • Protector's Strike
    • Quick Channel
    • Remote Bomb
    • Resilient Eidolon
    • Reward of Life
    • Rhetorical Flourish
    • Sense Link
    • Shadow Grasp
    • Shapeshifting Hunter
    • Shatter Resolve
    • Shielded Caster
    • Sickening Spell
    • Silent Spell
    • Siphon Poison
    • Skill Focus
    • Slayer's Knack
    • Small But Deadly
    • Sorcerous Bloodstrike
    • Spell Bane
    • Spontaneous Metafocus
    • Starlight Summons
    • Stealth Synergy
    • Still Spell
    • Stone Sense
    • Sunlight Summons
    • Theurgy
    • Threatening Illusion
    • Thundering Spell
    • Ultimate Mercy
    • Vampiric Companion
    • Versatile Jinxer
    • Wand Dancer
    • Wild Speech
    • Witch Knife
    • Word of Healing


    Spoiler: Tier 3
    Show

    Tier 3 represents feats that could easily be seen as actual class features on a well written base class or prestige class, though aren't likely to cause problems in game balance by themselves. Feats that grant multiple uses of a greater class feature also fall under this tier.
    Cost Guideline: 10 points


    • Abundant Revelations
    • Accursed Critical (Critical)
    • Accursed Hex
    • Additional Traits
    • Ancient Draconic
    • Arcane Blast
    • Arcane Jinxer
    • Area Jinx
    • Bat Shape [Note: This feat is probably tier 2 before level 5.]
    • Bestow Hope
    • Bewildering Koan
    • Bloodmarked Flight
    • Blood of Heroes
    • Boon Companion
    • Branded Retribution
    • Celestial Obedience
    • Center of Power
    • Channeled Revival
    • Channeled Shield Wall
    • Consecrate Spell
    • Contingent Channeling
    • Cypher Magic
    • Dastardly Finish
    • Deadly Finish
    • Demonic Obedience
    • Destroy Identity
    • Detect Expertise
    • Disruptive Recall
    • Distant Jinx
    • Divine Deception
    • Divine Interference
    • Ectoplasmic Spell
    • Effortless Trickery
    • Elemental Channel
    • Enlarge Spell
    • Esoteric Advantage
    • Evolved Familiar
    • Expert Trainer
    • Extend Spell
    • Extended Bane
    • Extra Arcana
    • Extra Arcane Pool
    • Extra Bombs [Note: If no useful bomb Discoveries have been taken, this feat is tier 5.]
    • Extra Channel
    • Extra Discovery
    • Extra Hex
    • Extra Item Slot
    • Extra Lay on Hands
    • Extra Mercy
    • Extra Performance
    • Extra Rage
    • Extra Rage Power
    • Extra Revelation
    • Fascination Jinx
    • Flanking Foil
    • Focused Disbelief
    • Focused Spell
    • Furious Focus
    • Go Unnoticed
    • Grant Initiative
    • Greater Eldritch Heritage
    • Greater Spell Focus
    • Greater Spell Penetration
    • Green Guardian
    • Guided Hand
    • Hellcast Stealth
    • Hero's Fortune
    • Imperial Knight
    • Implant Bomb
    • Improved Eldritch Heritage
    • Improved Learn Ranger Trap
    • Improved Monster Lore
    • Improved Share Spells
    • Indomitable Mount
    • Insightful Gaze
    • Inspirational Commander
    • Instant Judgement
    • Jinx Alchemy
    • Judgement Surge
    • Lingering Spell
    • Luck of Heroes
    • Malicious Eye
    • Merciful Spell
    • Noble Scion
    • Ordered Mind
    • Painful Anchor
    • Pantheistic Blessing
    • Parry Spell
    • Piercing Spell
    • Planar Wild Shape
    • Practiced Leadership
    • Prophetic Visionary
    • Quick Wild Shape
    • Raging Deathblow
    • Raging Vitality
    • Shade of the Woodlands
    • Shadow Gambit
    • Shaping Focus
    • Shared Judgement
    • Skeleton Summoner
    • Sluggish Jinx
    • Spell Bluff
    • Spell Focus
    • Spell Penetration
    • Spellsong
    • Split Hex
    • Split Major Hex
    • Thanatopic Spell
    • Threnodic Spell
    • Turn Undead
    • Umbral Spell
    • Uncanny Activation




    Spoiler: Tier 2
    Show

    Tier 2 represents feats that are starting to get too good for characters to have. They cause a lot of headaches at the game table when it comes to running a balanced game, but they don't usually break a campaign by themselves.
    Cost Guideline: 15 points


    • Augment Summoning
    • Bloodmage Initiate
    • Bouncing Spell
    • Combat Casting
    • Command Undead
    • Cooperative Crafting
    • Cypher Script
    • Defensive Combat Training
    • Dimensional Agility [Note: This is tier 5 for monks.]
    • Dispel Synergy
    • Divinerís Delving
    • Expanded Arcana
    • Extra Summons
    • Familiar Focus
    • Familiar Spell
    • Focused Overseer
    • Fortune Teller
    • Greater Spell Specialization
    • Improved Familiar
    • Improved Fiendish Sorcery
    • Mage's Tattoo
    • Major Spell Expertise
    • Peacemaker
    • Planar Preservationist
    • Reach Spell
    • Rime Spell
    • Sacred Summons
    • Shadow Dodge
    • Spell Mastery
    • Steadfast Mind
    • Summon Good Monster
    • Summon Neutral Monster
    • Superior Summoning
    • Tapestry Traveler
    • Tenacious Transmutation
    • Tenebrous Spell
    • Toppling Spell
    • Uncanny Concentration
    • Undead Master


    Spoiler: Tier 1
    Show

    Tier 1 represents feats that are simply too good and probably would end up on most ban lists from sensible GMs who aren't running a "High Op" game. There is almost no way to reconcile these feats, as they're written, with game balance and they most certainly can smash a campaign by their lonesome.
    Cost Guideline: 20 points


    • Destructive Dispel
    • Energy Attunement
    • Focused Worker
    • Leadership
    • Minor Spell Expertise
    • Natural Spell
    • Planned Spontaneity
    • Persistent Spell
    • Preferred Spell
    • Quicken Spell
    • Spell Hex
    • Spell Perfection
    • Squire [Note: If a GM does not allow this feat to upgrade to Leadership, it is Tier 3 instead.]
    • Torchbearer [Note: If a GM does not allow this feat to upgrade to Leadership, it is Tier 3 instead.]




    Spoiler: Changelog
    Show

    4/2/16
    - Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting added to tier 4.
    - Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting moved to tier 5; Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting added to Tier 5.
    - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Fighting moved to Tier 6. Magical Tail added to Tier 4.

    4/3/16
    - Weapon Finesse added to Tier 5.



    Now, this time around I'm not going to be delving into the minutiae of pricing feats in the same tier against one another. There is one flat floor cost for the entire tier to be used as a guideline for pricing as the feats should roughly measure up to other feats in the same tier.


    Also, I'm going to take a more reactive approach than proactive with adding to this tier list; I have a full time job now and limited free time, so I'll be taking requests for feats to be tiered into this system and will only go through and add new ones sporadically.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2016-04-03 at 03:15 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    I find it odd that common feats like power attack and two-weapon fighting aren't listed. What gives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I find it odd that common feats like power attack and two-weapon fighting aren't listed. What gives?
    Don't expect you to remember from nearly two years back, but I was originally doing everything alphabetically and hadn't started the Ms for combat feats before stopping this project.

    I'll take those two as the first suggestions though.

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    Thanks.

    Edit:

    Power Attack: I placed this feat as tier 4, mostly because I don't know where would be proper to place this feat. It's practically a requirement for any kind of melee build, so it's not, by its nature, tier 5 material, but I do know there is a good argument that it should be just a normal part of the combat rules. As such, I could see the argument for it to be tiered lower.

    Actually, I did tier Piranha Strike as tier 5, and that's the dex version of Power Attack...Hm...should I raise PS or lower PA...

    Two-Weapon Fighting: As memory serves it's inferior to two-handing a weapon and I could see it argued as being a lower tier for the same reasons as Power Attack.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2016-04-02 at 11:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    Don't expect you to remember from nearly two years back, but I was originally doing everything alphabetically and hadn't started the Ms for combat feats before stopping this project.
    Actually, I do. I just assumed you'd got further because of having later letters. I'd recommend tiering all of the feats that are copies or near-copies of ones in 3.5 core.

    I'd lower PA; make it T5 and TWF T6, then make all of the scaling TWF feats (ITWF, GTWF... does PTWF exist in PF any more?) T6 as well. They're basically feat taxes to do something you should be able to do anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Actually, I do. I just assumed you'd got further because of having later letters. I'd recommend tiering all of the feats that are copies or near-copies of ones in 3.5 core.
    The PSRD had it's feats organized weird; they separate it by the feat type and then by letter. So I had started with General Feats and got mostly through combat feats, at the time.

    I'd lower PA; make it T5 and TWF T6, then make all of the scaling TWF feats (ITWF, GTWF... does PTWF exist in PF any more?) T6 as well. They're basically feat taxes to do something you should be able to do anyway.
    I don't know if I agree with the TWF line being T6 though. T6 is really reserved for feats that are completely trash, make your character objectively worse/more vulnerable or are so commonly ignored/house ruled out that they might not even exist.

    TWF may be kind of feat taxy, but I don't know if they belong that low.

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    I would argue that any serious attempt to use the TWF feats really does make your character worse. Anyway, all the armour proficiencies are also listed as T6, and so is EWP: Spiked Chain which is one of the most powerful feats in the game (EWP bastard sword is also pretty good for one feat point if you're trying to sword-and-board or TWF). Ammo drop is listed because if you're using it, you're using a bad fighting style (it's actually practically necessary for someone who is trying to fight with a sling for some reason).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I would argue that any serious attempt to use the TWF feats really does make your character worse. Anyway, all the armour proficiencies are also listed as T6, and so is EWP: Spiked Chain which is one of the most powerful feats in the game (EWP bastard sword is also pretty good for one feat point if you're trying to sword-and-board or TWF). Ammo drop is listed because if you're using it, you're using a bad fighting style (it's actually practically necessary for someone who is trying to fight with a sling for some reason).
    I'm going to need a little more evidence that pursuing TWF does make your character worse, but I'm definitely open for the discussion.

    The armor proficiency are tier 6 because:
    • A: An enchanted mithral Chain shirt is probably one of, if not the, best armors in the game, so expending any resources beyond light armor prof is completely asinine.
    • B: A single level dip in Fighter nets you all three, plus weapon proficiency and you STILL get a bonus feat, on top of all that.


    I'd probably just add a colloquiary that the feat should be priced higher if taken for Spiked Chain or Bastard Sword. Exceptions don't cause the feat to be re-tiered wholesale unless they're a major exception.

    Ammo Drop is tier 6 because it frankly doesn't make sense that you can't already reload as move action and because it only applies with slings, instead of all ranged weapons.

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    Well, if you try to TWF with a longsword and a shortsword, then you deal on average one more damage than someone with a greatsword, you lose most of your power attack potential, and you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You also have to enchant the two weapons separately and gain no benefit whatsoever on a non-full attack, including a charge. The only real benefit is for precision damage, and even then you're usually better off wielding a two-handed weapon. If you can make TWF actually a good idea, you're doing something very odd and probably doing more than just taking the TWF-chain feats. At the moment, just making all of your offhand attacks costs you 9 points, which is almost enough to get you a feat that's actually good. Or take power attack, cleave and great cleave, all of which are way better than the TWF feats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Well, if you try to TWF with a longsword and a shortsword, then you deal on average one more damage than someone with a greatsword, you lose most of your power attack potential, and you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You also have to enchant the two weapons separately and gain no benefit whatsoever on a non-full attack, including a charge. The only real benefit is for precision damage, and even then you're usually better off wielding a two-handed weapon. If you can make TWF actually a good idea, you're doing something very odd and probably doing more than just taking the TWF-chain feats. At the moment, just making all of your offhand attacks costs you 9 points, which is almost enough to get you a feat that's actually good. Or take power attack, cleave and great cleave, all of which are way better than the TWF feats.
    Good points made.


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    Spell mastery is not really a great feat.
    Except when your gm absolutely loves killing your spellbook.
    Last edited by noob; 2016-04-02 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Spell mastery is not really a great feat.
    Except when your gm absolutely loves killing your spellbook.
    A Wizard's spell book is one of the only real weaknesses that a Wizard logistically has. Now, spending gold is always a preferable expenditure of resources than burning a feat slot, but if they happen to have a free slot they aren't otherwise using, then always being able to prepare a large selection of their best spells is gravy.

    This feat is tier 2 as, unless the GM knows how to play the Wizard at their own game, it removes one of the few stop gaps/potential targets for the Wizard's exponential power curve. It can potentially unbalance a game.

    Edit:

    Weapon Finesse: You should already be able to use Dex instead of Str, at least for certain weapons. This feat, while commonly taken, doesn't really give you a bonus.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2016-04-03 at 03:17 PM.

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    A lot of the stuff in tier 1 looks largely harmless. I would not take Persist Spell without metamagic reduction, and as such it seems rather unfair to call it "broken". A lot of other stuff doesn't look super impressive to me. Minor Spell Expertise is an extra spell slot. An extra 1st level spell slot. That's committed when you take the feat. That comes after you have 4th level spells. I would have to see some very compelling cheese to be convinced it should be banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    This feat is tier 2 as, unless the GM knows how to play the Wizard at their own game, it removes one of the few stop gaps/potential targets for the Wizard's exponential power curve. It can potentially unbalance a game.
    I can honestly say that I would never take that feat, even in a DM arms race situation. I would rather just get more power and defend my spellbook with that power. Or make copies of my spellbook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    A lot of the stuff in tier 1 looks largely harmless. I would not take Persist Spell without metamagic reduction, and as such it seems rather unfair to call it "broken". A lot of other stuff doesn't look super impressive to me. Minor Spell Expertise is an extra spell slot. An extra 1st level spell slot. That's committed when you take the feat. That comes after you have 4th level spells. I would have to see some very compelling cheese to be convinced it should be banned.
    Yeah, I have to agree here. Destructive Dispel makes DM and GDM - two fairly situational spells more useful, but only if you're using a specific type of dispel. Energy attunement turns polymorph into shapechange and really is broken. I have no idea how Focused Worker works or what it does so I can't comment except to say that it would be really annoying if you suddenly needed your neglected capital. Minor Spell Expertise would possibly be nice if there were any 1st-level spells with expensive material components, but I don't think there are. Natural spell is a feat tax, though I suppose I'm happy with druids taking a double-tax. Planned Spontaneity is pretty powerful, but not super-awesome-amazing. Same with preferred spell. Quicken spell isn't actually usually worth the 4-level adjustment, and persist spell definitely isn't worth the 6-level adjustment. Spell hex is an odd version of Minor Spell Expertise. Spell perfection is pretty good.

    And yeah, I don't take spell mastery either.
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    Inthe tear one I think that references pathfinder persistent spell not 3.5s persist spell. It's a +2 spell level metamagic and it does this
    Persistent Spell (Metamagic)

    You can modify a spell to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.

    Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

    Level Increase: +2 (a persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spellís actual level.)

    Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spellís effect do not benefit from this feat.
    Also the only time I've ever seen spell mastery used is when I made an arcanist and at lvl 5 they got it as a free feat because of the archetype I was using and it was one of the entry requirements for the PRC i was planning to go into.

    Also I think that Piranha strike, power attack and Deadly aim should be in the same tier of feat, seeing as how they have the same function just on different types of weapons.
    Last edited by nikkoli; 2016-04-05 at 11:49 AM.

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    Why is undead master rated that high? Being able to animate 16 more HD (Including desecrate) with a casting of animate dead isn't that good The only time that is good is if you are for some reason limited on time or want to animate one really big undead. Having medium sized undead tend to be better than one big one. I guess command undead duration doubled is ok but hardly worthy of tier 2.

    Also why is ultimate mercy tier 4? If we are going by is it worthy to have as a class feature then the answer is yes, free raise deads are almost certainly a good class feature. There is an entire archetype dedicated to a similar ability (but not quite identical, it is one per week reincarnate on your self) the archetype isn't considered exceptional but that is mostly because of how good druid already is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Energy attunement turns polymorph into shapechange and really is broken.
    Remember, this is for PF and PF polymorph doesn't (IIRC) do anything super impressive. For 3e, that's obviously broken, but so is just abusing polymorph so I don't care about the feat.

    I have no idea how Focused Worker works or what it does so I can't comment except to say that it would be really annoying if you suddenly needed your neglected capital.
    From what I gathered reading that feat, all the cheese it could possibly do is less impressive than throwing guidance of the avatar onto your skill check. Maybe the system it plugs into is somehow broken, but I have difficulty imagining that being the feat's fault.

    Natural spell is a feat tax, though I suppose I'm happy with druids taking a double-tax.
    Natural Spell is too good relative to other feats, so every Druid takes it. It needs to either be cheap enough that Druids don't lose out on (relatively) unique abilities to take it, or expensive enough that there are other things worth the price. I personally prefer the cheap setting (it should be a bonus feat), as that encourages Druids to use Wild Shape. Obviously you would want the expensive setting if you were using the system to stealth nerf people.

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli View Post
    Inthe tear one I think that references pathfinder persistent spell not 3.5s persist spell. It's a +2 spell level metamagic and it does this
    That's good. Probably not broken, but closer than any of the other things I looked into explicitly. Also, having a spell have a larger immediate effect because it is "Persistent" is a flavor fail.

    Also the only time I've ever seen spell mastery used is when I made an arcanist and at lvl 5 they got it as a free feat because of the archetype I was using and it was one of the entry requirements for the PRC i was planning to go into.
    Also if you're using Uncanny Forethought (although Spontaneous Divination + Versatile Spellcaster is probably just better, outside of casting time reduction cheese).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    Why is undead master rated that high? Being able to animate 16 more HD (Including desecrate) with a casting of animate dead isn't that good The only time that is good is if you are for some reason limited on time or want to animate one really big undead.
    animate dead is pretty awesome at low levels. If you're level 5 (when Clerics, at least in 3e, get animate dead), getting 16 more hit dice of undead means you can animate a CR 7 Fire Giant Skeleton, which is as personally badass as any two members of your party. The benefit falls off pretty quick, but even if you're animating Ogre skeletons (CR 2), you're getting a PC-sized bang for your buck.

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    You could already animate ogres though and undead master doesn't actually give you more hd of control just allows you to animate more. What actual cr appropriate challenge is there that a level 5 pc can take out that you can animate that couldn't be animated with 20 hd but could be animated with 36 (or 10 hd and 18 hd if you are going variant skeletons which you always should). Say you killed a cr 7 monster which should be difficult but isn't impossible, the mean hit dice is 9 (with a standard deviation of 1.06) and the max for that cr is 12 (using a beautiful spread sheet made by someone going by the name shoelessinsight to find this information, not sure how up to date it is but holds almost 1300 different creatures in it) that means on average you don't even need the feat even if you are punching well above your weight. Unless the GM literally hands you the perfect undead to animate by allowing you to ransack a fire giant graveyard, you have to go out and search for a specifically high hd creature and then defeat it to use the feat...even then you probably would have been better off just to kill a lower hit die cr 7 opponent.
    Last edited by Hamste; 2016-04-08 at 09:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    You could already animate ogres though and undead master doesn't actually give you more hd of control just allows you to animate more.
    Wait, what? Doesn't that do literally nothing? animate dead already says:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, animate dead
    No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled.
    The way animate dead works by default is that you control up to 4 * CL HD worth of undead, with preference to more recent undead. Getting to animate more without getting to control more doesn't do anything. Unless you were supposed to voltron it with desecrate to animate a pile of in excess of your limit in one go (which animate dead indicates you would still control).

    Could you quote the feat text?

    What actual cr appropriate challenge is there that a level 5 pc can take out that you can animate that couldn't be animated with 20 hd but could be animated with 36 (or 10 hd and 18 hd if you are going variant skeletons which you always should).
    I dunno, but the feat is literally an extra 6 CR on your side. At that level, Leadership is an extra 3 and that is probably the best feat. It falls behind, obviously, but it's stupid good at 5th level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Wait, what? Doesn't that do literally nothing? animate dead already says:



    The way animate dead works by default is that you control up to 4 * CL HD worth of undead, with preference to more recent undead. Getting to animate more without getting to control more doesn't do anything. Unless you were supposed to voltron it with desecrate to animate a pile of in excess of your limit in one go (which animate dead indicates you would still control).

    Could you quote the feat text?



    I dunno, but the feat is literally an extra 6 CR on your side. At that level, Leadership is an extra 3 and that is probably the best feat. It falls behind, obviously, but it's stupid good at 5th level.
    Here is the feat text:

    When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.


    Undead master does literally nothing for the command undead feat. It only helps with this part of animate dead: Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.


    There is a reason undead master is rated a trap in most necromancy handbooks. The feat doesn't actually function how it is supposed to. The only use for it is variant undead (They count as twice as much for animating but don't for controlling) or if you don't have desecrate on hand. Doubling the duration of the command undead spell is nice as well.
    Last edited by Hamste; 2016-04-12 at 11:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    There is a reason undead master is rated a trap in most necromancy handbooks. The feat doesn't actually function how it is supposed to. The only use is for it is variant undead (They count as twice as much for animating but don't for controlling) or if you don't have desecrate on hand. Doubling the duration of the command undead spell is nice as well.
    Oh, okay. That sounds pretty bad. The doubled command undead is nice, but probably not worth a whole feat. Something around half, and even then only in a relatively low-level environment, as command undead becomes decidedly unimpressive by the time you get 6th or 7th level spells.

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