E6 Compendium, Volume 3

[JNAProductions]

No Dragonfire Adept?

And what the heck happened to the Warlock? Where's Eldritch Blast?

[Gnorman]

No Dragonfire Adept?

And what the heck happened to the Warlock? Where's Eldritch Blast?

Volume 3's Warlock is a renamed version of Volume 2's Black Mage. It is not supposed to be an analogue of the Complete Arcane warlock. That would be "The Invoker," which I have yet to write (it's in the Alternate Classes section in Chapter 2). The dragonfire adept would likely be an archetype thereof.

[Sahleb]

What's the purpose of giving the Monk medium base attack some of the time? It doesn't seem to accomplish much, and makes the class needlessly complicated, what with having to remember different attack bonuses for different applications.

I.e. the monk has +4 to hit if he moves and attacks, +3 if he stands still and flurries, but if someone then tries to disarm him, he only has +2 for the purpose of that.

I suppose it might have been done to cut off the monk from qualifying for the +6 BAB feats, such as Snap Kick, Manyshot and Improved Two-weapon fighting?

Which then begs the question, why do you want to do that?

It's not actively bad, balancewise, but having different BABs depending on what he's doing at the time is a clunky mechanic.

That said, I think the Kensai archetype is hilarious. When you combine the free exotic weapon proficiency, the free nonspecific weapon enhancements, and the ability to flurry with anything, one of the logical conclusions is an elf with a +1 Keen Aptitude Great Crossbow and Hand Crossbow Focus.

[Gnorman]

What's the purpose of giving the Monk medium base attack some of the time? It doesn't seem to accomplish much, and makes the class needlessly complicated, what with having to remember different attack bonuses for different applications.

I.e. the monk has +4 to hit if he moves and attacks, +3 if he stands still and flurries, but if someone then tries to disarm him, he only has +2 for the purpose of that.

I suppose it might have been done to cut off the monk from qualifying for the +6 BAB feats, such as Snap Kick, Manyshot and Improved Two-weapon fighting?

Which then begs the question, why do you want to do that?

It's not actively bad, balancewise, but having different BABs depending on what he's doing at the time is a clunky mechanic.

Hmmm. Fair points, all. My reasoning behind it was "well, hey, the Monk is considered a 'skilled class' in this system, so I don't know if I should give it full BAB, but it's also a melee fighter, so I should probably give it something to compensate, so here, have full BAB when flurrying." Mainly for the extra attack, I suppose. I may have been overcompensating.

As I'm trying to raise the balance points of historically bad classes, I'll probably just end up giving it full BAB.

That said, I think the Kensai archetype is hilarious. When you combine the free exotic weapon proficiency, the free nonspecific weapon enhancements, and the ability to flurry with anything, one of the logical conclusions is an elf with a +1 Keen Aptitude Great Crossbow and Hand Crossbow Focus.

Wow. I should, uh, probably limit the kensai's ability to "manufactured melee weapons." But you're right, that is an incredibly hilarious image.

[Sahleb]

Hmmm. Fair points, all. My reasoning behind it was "well, hey, the Monk is considered a 'skilled class' in this system, so I don't know if I should give it full BAB, but it's also a melee fighter, so I should probably give it something to compensate, so here, have full BAB when flurrying." Mainly for the extra attack, I suppose. I may have been overcompensating.

As I'm trying to raise the balance points of historically bad classes, I'll probably just end up giving it full BAB.



Wow. I should, uh, probably limit the kensai's ability to "manufactured melee weapons." But you're right, that is an incredibly hilarious image.

Personally, I think it's a good idea to give it full BAB. The monk special abilities doesn't seem that much better than say, the paladin, and that one does get full base.

As for the Kensai, the Zen Archer is actually one of the cool things in pathfinder. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the extra flurry ability was limited to martial weapons only. That way you could have swordmaster monks and bowmaster monks. It only got really silly because it used a crossbow - those really aren't meant for rapid fire, but bows fit in pretty well.

[Gnorman]

Personally, I think it's a good idea to give it full BAB. The monk special abilities doesn't seem that much better than say, the paladin, and that one does get full base.

As for the Kensai, the Zen Archer is actually one of the cool things in pathfinder. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the extra flurry ability was limited to martial weapons only. That way you could have swordmaster monks and bowmaster monks. It only got really silly because it used a crossbow - those really aren't meant for rapid fire, but bows fit in pretty well.

I think that's a good compromise, yeah. I hadn't even thought about the Zen Archer concept, but the kensai does seem to be the natural choice for a weaponmaster, yeah. I've limited it to simple, martial, or special monk weapons. Maybe there's a way to make a great crossbow a special monk weapon, but if you figure that out, at that point I just have to bow to your op-fu.

[Eloel]

For the Ranger, Bane of Enemies doesn't seem to be in the table.

[Gnorman]

For the Ranger, Bane of Enemies doesn't seem to be in the table.

Fixed! Thanks for the heads up.

[gkathellar]

Still looking this over, but the fact that Paladin gives me the tools necessary to create Captain America is one of the coolest things I've seen in ages.

You might want to include an option for treating the Holy Shield as a buckler, if only to allow for Paladins using two-handed weapons - at present, they're pretty much locked into sword-and-board. Unless you mean for them to run that way, maybe 1st level Champions could be granted a one-time choice between a holy shield that's a heavy shield/tower shield, and one that's a heavy shield/buckler? I haven't put any thought into the balance implications of that, mind.

[Gnorman]

Still looking this over, but the fact that Paladin gives me the tools necessary to create Captain America is one of the coolest things I've seen in ages.

You might want to include an option for treating the Holy Shield as a buckler, if only to allow for Paladins using two-handed weapons - at present, they're pretty much locked into sword-and-board. Unless you mean for them to run that way, maybe 1st level Champions could be granted a one-time choice between a holy shield that's a heavy shield/tower shield, and one that's a heavy shield/buckler? I haven't put any thought into the balance implications of that, mind.

Aww, thanks for the compliment. I did indeed take more than a little inspiration from Mr. Rogers when designing the Paladin. Was hoping to make sword-and-board a viable option.

My only concern with the buckler is that the majority of the shield bonus is coming from the Charisma modifier, not the base shield itself, and so it'd make two-handed weapons a very attractive choice for most Paladins. I'll have to think of a way to balance that. They do get a lot of bonus damage from their challenge, though, which helps make up for not using two-handed weapons. But it would be nice to give players a choice.

[Sahleb]

Aww, thanks for the compliment. I did indeed take more than a little inspiration from Mr. Rogers when designing the Paladin. Was hoping to make sword-and-board a viable option.

My only concern with the buckler is that the majority of the shield bonus is coming from the Charisma modifier, not the base shield itself, and so it'd make two-handed weapons a very attractive choice for most Paladins. I'll have to think of a way to balance that. They do get a lot of bonus damage from their challenge, though, which helps make up for not using two-handed weapons. But it would be nice to give players a choice.

Honestly, the difference in damage isn't that big, since they derive a large chunk from their challenge anyway. And bucklers come with a native -1 to hit with your two-hander on top of having to get Improved Buckler Defense to avoid losing your bonus whenever you attack.

[Gnorman]

Honestly, the difference in damage isn't that big, since they derive a large chunk from their challenge anyway. And bucklers come with a native -1 to hit with your two-hander on top of having to get Improved Buckler Defense to avoid losing your bonus whenever you attack.

Fair enough. I'll give it a think.

In other news, I've added the INVOKER to the front page, for those of you who were wondering when an actual invocation-using class would show up.

[JNAProductions]

Fair enough. I'll give it a think.

In other news, I've added the INVOKER to the front page, for those of you who were wondering when an actual invocation-using class would show up.

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Excited!

Aw. No DFA.

Still, looks cool!

[Gnorman]

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Excited!

Aw. No DFA.

Still, looks cool!

You know, I was all ready to make it an Invoker archetype, when I thought to myself, no, JNAProductions deserves a Dragonfire Adept base class. So I'm adding that to the mix. Archetypes will likely be Platinum Knight, Talon of Tiamat, and Watcher of Io.

[Eloel]

Seeing all these classes and nothing resembling a Factotum is disheartening

Possible archetype suggestions: Acrobat/Archivist/Jack of All Trades

[JNAProductions]

Yay! Thanks Gnorman!

[Gnorman]

Seeing all these classes and nothing resembling a Factotum is disheartening

Possible archetype suggestions: Acrobat/Archivist/Jack of All Trades

The Scholar is pretty much already a Factotum, albeit with a few differences. In fact, she has Chameleon and Archivist as archetypes.

[Eloel]

The Scholar is pretty much already a Factotum, albeit with a few differences. In fact, she has Chameleon and Archivist as archetypes.

I checked under Wizard for Archivist, didn't realize Scholar. My bad. Thanks

[Gnorman]

I checked under Wizard for Archivist, didn't realize Scholar. My bad. Thanks

No worries! The Scholar has most of the things you're looking for - an Int-based skillmonkey with "research points" (similar to inspiration) that can be used to make sneak attacks and critical strikes, SLA-style casting, etc.

[Randomguy]

The spell list for your version of the wizard is cripplingly bad. It's worse than the spell list for your bard. Bards at least get charm monster, and they they get suggestion and hold person at 2nd level rather than 3rd level.

The Minor Magic ability that wizards get is also almost useless. The effects are good, but the duration is only one round, so you're effectively using up your action to have a chance of making one opponent miss their action, which is only really worth it if the party is up against one or two strong opponents.
To make it more worthwhile, consider extending the duration to concentration. That wouldn't make much of a difference until 4th level, but at that point the studied mind ability would let you keep it going as a swift action.

[Gnorman]

The spell list for your version of the wizard is cripplingly bad. It's worse than the spell list for your bard. Bards at least get charm monster, and they they get suggestion and hold person at 2nd level rather than 3rd level.

Going to have to disagree very strongly with you here. Nobody says that the Beguiler has a bad spell list, and the Wizard is very similar to that. It might need a few tweaks compared to the Bard, yes, but it's not cripplingly bad.

The Minor Magic ability that wizards get is also almost useless. The effects are good, but the duration is only one round, so you're effectively using up your action to have a chance of making one opponent miss their action, which is only really worth it if the party is up against one or two strong opponents.
To make it more worthwhile, consider extending the duration to concentration. That wouldn't make much of a difference until 4th level, but at that point the studied mind ability would let you keep it going as a swift action.

This is a fair point, though, and I'll take it under consideration.

[Randomguy]

Going to have to disagree very strongly with you here. Nobody says that the Beguiler has a bad spell list, and the Wizard is very similar to that. It might need a few tweaks compared to the Bard, yes, but it's not cripplingly bad.

I suppose I overstated things. It does need a boost, though.

Let's compare the beguiler spell list and your wizard list: For first level spells everything's fine, but at 2nd level the wizard is missing out on Glitterdust, an absolutely fantastic battlefield control spell, and spider climb, which is a solid movement spell for getting out of harms way. At third level, they're missing Slow and Haste, which are both fantastic spells. And while the Wizard gets a few good spells that the beguiler doesn't, like Gust of Wind and Wind Wall, those are both somewhat situational. I don't think they really make up for the loss.
The other thing that bugs me is that Wizards are supposed to be the main, specialist enchanter class, but they never get the ability to Charm anything other than humanoids, while your Bards do. The other benefit of Charm monster is the duration: A bard can use it to get a thrall / pet and keep it for a long time, but Wizards can only Charm things for a few hours. Bards also benefit from Confusion, an area of effect enchantment. The only area of effect enchantments that Wizards get is Deep Slumber, which is a great spell, but Confusion is standard action cast, has no HD limit, and can effect things that are immune to sleep.

You might want to consider just flat out adding Confusion and Charm monster to the 3rd level wizard spell list, or else giving wizards a class feature at 6th level that adds these spells (and maybe a few others) to the list. After all, Bards normally only get 3rd level spells when they reach level 7, at the same time that Wizards get access to 4th level spells. But you've accelerated Bard casting by a level, so the end result is that Bards end up being able to cast spells that Wizards never get access to.

[Gnorman]

I suppose I overstated things. It does need a boost, though.

Let's compare the beguiler spell list and your wizard list: For first level spells everything's fine, but at 2nd level the wizard is missing out on Glitterdust, an absolutely fantastic battlefield control spell, and spider climb, which is a solid movement spell for getting out of harms way. At third level, they're missing Slow and Haste, which are both fantastic spells. And while the Wizard gets a few good spells that the beguiler doesn't, like Gust of Wind and Wind Wall, those are both somewhat situational. I don't think they really make up for the loss.
The other thing that bugs me is that Wizards are supposed to be the main, specialist enchanter class, but they never get the ability to Charm anything other than humanoids, while your Bards do. The other benefit of Charm monster is the duration: A bard can use it to get a thrall / pet and keep it for a long time, but Wizards can only Charm things for a few hours. Bards also benefit from Confusion, an area of effect enchantment. The only area of effect enchantments that Wizards get is Deep Slumber, which is a great spell, but Confusion is standard action cast, has no HD limit, and can effect things that are immune to sleep.

You might want to consider just flat out adding Confusion and Charm monster to the 3rd level wizard spell list, or else giving wizards a class feature at 6th level that adds these spells (and maybe a few others) to the list. After all, Bards normally only get 3rd level spells when they reach level 7, at the same time that Wizards get access to 4th level spells. But you've accelerated Bard casting by a level, so the end result is that Bards end up being able to cast spells that Wizards never get access to.

While I understand that they are good spells, things like Glitterdust, Spider Climb, Slow, and Haste didn't quite jive with my conception of the Wizard. But I'll grant you that spells like Confusion and Charm Monster certainly do, which makes it a bit odd that the Bard would get them and yet the Wizard would not. I'll see what I can do.

[nonsi]

Greater Archetype Power: A fell knight may imbue her eldritch blast with hellfire. A hellfire blast deals her normal blast damage, plus an additional 2d6. Despite the name, this damage is not fire damage, and cannot be resisted by any means. However, each time a hellfire blast is used, the hell knight takes damage equal to her class level.

1. Does this ever amount to anything other than a flat value of 6?
2. 6 HP damage seems a bit high for gaining 2d6 damage output (that could miss).

[Randomguy]

2. 6 HP damage seems a bit high for gaining 2d6 damage output (that could miss).

If you think that's a bit high, compare the Warmage archetype power.

Greater Archetype Power: A warmage may use her life force as fuel to create more powerful spells. When casting a spell, she may choose to increase her caster level by up to three; this allows her to exceed her hit dice cap and increases all variables associated with hit dice. However, for each increase in caster level, she takes 2d6 untyped damage. This damage cannot be mitigated in any way, though she may have it healed normally.

When used in combat that's an average 7 damage for +1d6 damage output. Although this one's also useful out of combat for spell duration and stuff.

[Gnorman]

That's me wanting to stay true to the spirit of the hellfire warlock, but not actually wanting to include Constitution drain for various reasons. As far as the wording, yeah, it's pretty much always going to be 6; I may be valuing linguistic consistency too highly as compared to simplicity here. 1d6 might be better.

I suppose the Warmage ability could also be scaled down to 1d6 per CL increase, but then I worry it's a little too abusable. But I guess as it is now, a warmage without a Constitution bonus could technically disable themselves using it.

[Randomguy]

I suppose the Warmage ability could also be scaled down to 1d6 per CL increase, but then I worry it's a little too abusable. But I guess as it is now, a warmage without a Constitution bonus could technically disable themselves using it.

That's a fair point. On the one hand, as it is now means it's extremely risky to use anything other than the +1 increase in combat. On the other hand, a +1 increase is enough to get you an extra 4d6 damage from scorching ray. And if the +3 increase becomes safe-ish to use in combat, then with another +2 to CL from other sources, which isn't that hard to get, then you could get 3 rays out of it. Still, even if it only cost 3d6 for the +3 to CL it would be very risky to use more than once.

[Sahleb]

Honestly, there's better ways to increase caster levels than the warmage archetype. I'm making a dragon disciple sorcerer, and I'm currently looking at +3cl, admittedly limited to fire spells only.

By the way, gnorman, would the breath weapon elemental damage (and the normal sorcerer's blast, I suppose) be considered magical fire, or nonmagical fire for the purpose of spells and items and such? I'm leaning towards magical fire, myself, but you never know.

It's also a bit of a shame that there's no Empower Breath metabreath feat. With the flat bonus damage on the dragon disciple's breath attack, it would have worked out better than maximize breath, and cheaper too.

3d6+6 maximized is 24, but 3d6+6 empowered is ~24.75 on average.


(probably incomplete) Availible List of Ways to increase Caster Level.
Feats
Bloodline of Fire(+2cl to fire spells)
Practiced Spellcaster in conjunction with the Spellgifted Trait(+1cl to 1 school of magic)
Arcane Thesis(+2cl to 1 spell)
Primitive Caster(+1cl/V S or M component added, kind of bad.)
Elder Giant Magic(+1cl/rd of casting added, up to 3, kind of bad.)
Reserves of Strength(+1 to +3cl, stuns but uncaps, kind of bad without cheese)
Spell Thematics(+1cl to 1spell/lvl)

Items
Ring of Mystic Fire(+1cl to fire spells, 7.5kgp)(Gnorman allows Rings in his playtest, it seems, if they can be created by a sixth level artificer wizard. Ring of Mystic Fire requires Fireball or Flamestrike, and so can be crafted.)
Arcanist's Gloves(+2cl 2/d on 1st lvl spells, swift activation, 0.5kgp)
Ring of Mystic Lightning (+1cl to lightning spells, 7.5kgp)
Robe of Arcane Might(+1cl to 1 school of magic, 21kgp)

Interestingly, it's entirely possible to create a Tome of the Stilled Tongue, which'd give another permanent(or at least continuous) +1cl, but no-one can use it. 7.5kgp.

There's probably lots more, but those are the ones I can think of off-hand.

[Gnorman]

I'd say magical fire, as it's produced by a spell-like ability.

[Randomguy]

The Blackguard Hexblade Archetype greater archetype power is a bit weak: Getting the ability to cast spells in heavy armour amounts to a +3 bonus to AC, which isn't very impressive for a capstone, especially compared to all the other cool archetype capstones. Maybe something that lets them cast certain spells as swift actions, along the same lines as hospitalers or spellswords get? That might be too much, though. Mettle? Doesn't really fit the theme. Maybe "Pick a spell on the warlock list and gain it as a spell like ability Cha mod times per day"? That might be a bit too strong as well, but it might work if you limited it to a 2nd level spell.

Also, WOW that debuffing capability on the blackguard. At level 6, if you get within aura range you're automatically at -4 to saving throws from the combination of Aura and Despair and Shaken from the fear aura, or -8 vs. fear effects, if you're not already immune. Great synergy with a Yeth Hound or Vargouille companion.