Melee combat centered Magical Child?

[Silus]

Posted this on the Paizo boards but I figure posting this here couldn't hurt either.

So with the release of Ultimate Intrigue and my own fascination with anime (in this case Madoka Magica, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, and Princess Tutu), I got to thinking. "Hey, I wonder if I can take the Magical Child archetype for Vigilante and make it work as a melee character".

So all I really know about the Magical Child archetype is this:
1) Charisma based caster using Unchained Summoner spells
2) Gets a Familiar and free Improved Familiar at level 3
3) Light armor (no medium)
4) Limited on Vigilante Talents due to not being an Avenger or Stalker and giving up half their talents as part of the archetype
5) Quick identity change (down to a Swift action)

So with all this in mind (and with the new Rapier feat) I was thinking that a simple support Dex build with a Rapier. Was thinking (as far as the Feats and Vigilante Talents are concerned) doing something like this:

Human
1) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier)
2) Lethal Grace Vigilante Talent, replace Weapon Finesse for Fencing Grace
3) Arcane Armor Training (In conjunction with Mithril Chain)
5) Agile Maneuvers
6) Favored Maneuver (Dirty Trick)(Vig Talent)
7) Combat Casting
9) Combat Expertise
11) Quick Dirty Trick
12) Cunning Feint (Vig Talent)
13) Greater Dirty Trick
15) Dazzling Display
17) Dramatic Display
18) Shadow's Sight (Vig Talent)
19) Uncanny Concentration
20) Close the Gap (Vig Talent)

It's not the best makeup for feats and talents but it's kinda the best I got at the moment. Idea is to get in, feint and Dirty Trick all up in the enemy (or fire off some control or support spells then get stuck in) and just dismantle and debuff the enemy, making it easier for the party.

I also wonder if it would be easier to just do a straight Vigilante and just fluff it the way I want.

[Serafina]

You should seriously consider what you do with your familiar.
It's easily most of your class features after all, so you might as well do something useful with it. In combat, that would be "flanking buddy".

Well, in order for that to work, you'd need a small-sized familiar or a medium-sized one via the Sage familiar archetype.

Your Familiars ability to switch between a states (first between two, then at 9th-level between four) helps a lot there.
Small Elementals can fit pretty much anyone, so selecting that as one of your available forms seems like a good idea.

You might also want to consider the Evolved Familiar feat. It's a bit iffy on what Evolutions you can exactly take (do you use the chained or unchained list, can familiars count as quadruped or such etc.)
But adding natural attacks or pounce to your familiar can help a lot.

For Sage Familiars, there is the Sages Guidance feat. Sadly the bonus only lasts one round, so it's only really good if you help allies with it.



Seriously ask your GM how exactly Magical Child Familiars work.
Can they take/keep Familiar Archetypes (other than sage) when they turn into Improved Familiars? (normally, Improved Familiars can't since they can't trade away "speak with creatures of it's kind" on account of not having it).
Do they gain supernatural and spell-like abilities of their alternate forms? How does that change at 9th level with change shape? The text about "gain DR, but it doesn't stack with existing" seems to imply so, because normally you wouldn't gain DR from a polymorph effect (which change shape would be, but whatever the identity-switch is nobody knows).
Do they change their ability scores when they switch forms?


Depending on how these answers work, you can do different things.
Mauler-Familiars trade Intelligence for very high Strength (a 9th-level Imp with it would have a Strength of 24, before magic items or such).
Protector-Familiars can protect you from harm thanks to having Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard and In Harms Way.
Sage-Familiars (which you can combine with Bodyguard) can easily have a lot of knowledge skills.

Also, consider a two-level dip into Eldritch Guardian. Sharing all your combat-feats with your familiar can allow some pretty nice things.




All in all, the best build for a Magical Child is probably done like this:
- two-level dip into Eldritch Guardian
- take a teamwork feat and Harrying Partners
- give your familiar a ring of tactical precision
- have your familiar in a small or medium form flank the enemy for you
- the familiar uses aid another to improve your attacks
- if it can take the Protector familiar archetype, it uses AoO-based Aid Another to also improve your AC, and later absorb some attacks for you
- if the familiar can use weapons of some sort, have it use a benevolent weapon (alternatively, put it on an amulet that enhances natural attacks).
- if it wears armor, have it use benevolent armor.
- ask whether your familar can retrain one of it's feats into Extra Traits, and take the Helpful trait (or better yet, the halfling-version, though that is a bit cheesy).
- alternatively, take Bonded Mind and Exceptional Aid, and share the latter via the Ring of Tactical Precision (it is sadly not auto-shared, since it's not a combat-feat)

All in all, those combinations can provide between +2 to attack or AC (if no familiar archetypes are allowed), over +2 to both up to +11 to both (with benevolent armor/weapon +5 and exceptional aid).

Then, you follow this guide and go for a crit-fishing attack-of-opportunity sharing build.

[Slithery D]

Human
1) Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier)
2) Lethal Grace Vigilante Talent, replace Weapon Finesse for Fencing Grace

Fencing Grace and Lethal Grace don't stack, FYI. Since it's Weapon Finesse Plus there's no harm in having it, since you can apply it to any other finessable weapons you pick up to add some damage to your strength and have some backup diversification, but maybe instead you skip Fencing Grace and use that feat somewhere else rather than specializing so heavily in that one weapon.

The benefit of Fencing Grace over Lethal Grace is Dex bonus - Strength bonus + Half Vigilante level. If at level 10 your Dex is 24 and your Str is 8, that's only a +3 damage advantage for Fencing Grace, maybe not worth a feat. If you don't dump Str or max Dex it'll be an even smaller difference.

[Silus]

Fencing Grace and Lethal Grace don't stack, FYI. Since it's Weapon Finesse Plus there's no harm in having it, since you can apply it to any other finessable weapons you pick up to add some damage to your strength and have some backup diversification, but maybe instead you skip Fencing Grace and use that feat somewhere else rather than specializing so heavily in that one weapon.

The benefit of Fencing Grace over Lethal Grace is Dex bonus - Strength bonus + Half Vigilante level. If at level 10 your Dex is 24 and your Str is 8, that's only a +3 damage advantage for Fencing Grace, maybe not worth a feat. If you don't dump Str or max Dex it'll be an even smaller difference.

I was under the impression that Fencing Grace just subbed in Dex over Strength for Rapiers.

Suppose I could use it to kickstart the rest of the feats if I don't need Fencing Grace...

[Nyaa]

If I wanted to be melee magical girl in Pathfinder, I'd roll any of these:
1) Aegis
2) Any melee character with Sleeves of Many Garments
3) Synthetist Summoner

[Silus]

If I wanted to be melee magical girl in Pathfinder, I'd roll any of these:
1) Aegis
2) Any melee character with Sleeves of Many Garments
3) Synthetist Summoner

While I appreciate the input, nooooot really what I was looking for.

[Slithery D]

I was under the impression that Fencing Grace just subbed in Dex over Strength for Rapiers.

Suppose I could use it to kickstart the rest of the feats if I don't need Fencing Grace...

Fencing Grace is Dex damage "instead of" Str, not acting as. But Lethal Grace, in addition to giving Dex to hit, also gives half your Vigilante level added to Str to damage but only if your damage is actually coming from Str. But you don't get the half Vigilante level bonus if you're using Dex to damage via Lethal Grace, so that ability is wasted. If you completely dump Str and max Dex then Fencing Grace will do (somewhat) more damage, but if you don't want to do that to your stats or burn a feat for a marginal improvement you don't have to.

Sorry for repeating myself, I'm unclear whether you even though they stacked or understood how Lethal Grace boosts damage.

[Serafina]

Alright, here is my build.
Note: This assumes that Magical Child Familiars can take Familiar Archetypes. RAW is entirely confusing on that, so it may not be legal at your table.

Human Vigilante (Magical Child) X/Fighter (Eldritch Guardian) 2

Spoiler: Note

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Race can be replaced by anything that grants Exotic Weapon Proficiency

Feats:
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard) (once you can afford an effortless lace, before that use an Elven Branched Spear if you can retrain, or any finessable weapon).
1: Paired Opportunist
3: Combat Reflexes
5: Outflank
7: Combat Expertise
9: Harrying Partners
11: Swift Aid
13: Greater Trip

Vigilante Talents:
2: Lethal Grace (grants Weapon Finesse and +half level to damage)
6: Favored Maneuver (grants Improved Trip, +2 to Trip when enemy is unaware)
12: Vital Punishment (grants Vital Strike, can be applied to 1 AoO/round)

Social Talents:

Spoiler: Note

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They are not really important for the build. You'll likely want Quick and Immediate change, but other than that go nuts. I went for a "talented singer" vibe here, but anything works really.

1: Renown
3: Social Grace
5: Mockingbird
7: Quick Change
9: Great Renown
11: Triumphant Return
13: Immediate Change

Gear&Magical Items:
Effortless Lace
Keen http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...ies/fortuitous +1 (or higher) Fauchard
Benevolent Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists for your familiar
Ring of Tactical Precision for your familiar.

Familiar:
The Familiar has the Sage and Protector Archetype. It shares all combat feats with the character.
Base Form: Songbird (use Trush)
3rd-level Form: Celestial ???
5th-level Form: Small Aether Elemental (can make ranged combat maneuvers with CAB=level+DexMod (+2 default), can fly, is permanently affected by greater invisibility)
7th-level Form: Azata, Lyrakien fits well, but basically whatever you want (it's not supposed to fight).
Ask your GM if you can somehow give your familiar the Helpful trait.
Also note that due to the way all this works, you may have to "retrain" your familiars forms before 9th level, to always have one small form available for it. If your GM is against that, use a small base form for it, because you want your flanking buddy.

The basis of this build is simple:
You buff yourself (and your familiar at the same time, if possible) before combat using your spell list. Out of combat, you're social and charming and nice (high charisma, proper skills) while your Familiar can provide several maxed-out knowledge skills.
In combat, your familiar fights in the form of a permanently invisible elemental - it flanks for you, it uses it's swift action to enhance your attack, and it's attacks of opportunity to enhance your AC (or that of your allies, if you want to).
Whenever you land a critical hit, your familiar can perform an attack of opportunity. Whenever your familiar lands a critical hit, you can perform an attack of opportunity. The same applies when an enemy gets tripped (let your elemental do it via telekinesis, it has a high CAB and no size-restrictions), or due to any other trigger of attacks of opportunity. You yourself can apply Vital Strike to one AoO per round at higher levels.
Thanks to using a reach-weapon, you can also play at being a "reach cleric" and thus cast/summon while still using your melee abilities via AoOs.

[AlurenDarkfire]

...The Familiar has the Sage and Protector Archetype. It shares all combat feats with the character...

Sage and Protector don't stack, do they? Since they both replace Alertness.

[Slithery D]

Right, they don't.

[Legowarrior]

Would a pseudodragon be a good pick for a more stealth based magical child.

[AlurenDarkfire]

One more thing: the MC gets free Improved Familiar at Lvl 3. Since Improved Familiars don't get Speak with Animals of Their Kind, doesn't that exclude it from taking most (if not all) familiar archetypes anyways?

[squiggit]

One more thing: the MC gets free Improved Familiar at Lvl 3. Since Improved Familiars don't get Speak with Animals of Their Kind, doesn't that exclude it from taking most (if not all) familiar archetypes anyways?

No one knows. This is something that hasn't been clarified yet.

One camp will argue that improved familiar form disqualifies you, so you either can't take archetypes that use speak with animals or only benefit from it while in social identity.

The other will point out that the archetype says that your familiar's vigilante identity merely changes into one of the forms on the improved familiar list and that you don't actually get the improved familiar feat and your familiar isn't actually an improved familiar and so therefore archetypes work.

[Psyren]

One more thing: the MC gets free Improved Familiar at Lvl 3. Since Improved Familiars don't get Speak with Animals of Their Kind, doesn't that exclude it from taking most (if not all) familiar archetypes anyways?

As written, because they don't actually gain the feat, you have no qualification to lose for trading that ability away. This may be changed in the near future, but for the moment, that seems to be how it works.

[Florian]

There´s the clause "(the animal guide’s social identity always remains as the original normal animal)."
I think that strongly suggests that you handle two different Familiars for your character, one for each form.
So the Familiar Archetype you choose at first level will stay unchanged on the social identity familiar, but drop on the vigilante identity once Improved Familiar is gained.

Would a pseudodragon be a good pick for a more stealth based magical child.

Not really. You want to aim for something that is tiny, can fly, has invisibility and brings some other goodie like Commune or Teleport.

Good candidates would be Imp, Psychic Serpent or Liminal Sprite.

[Legowarrior]

The 3 advantages of a Magical Child's Familiar over a regular familiar seems to be the free Improved Familiar class feat (and the ability to swap out your improved familiar with a regular familiar with a 5 round action, in case you need the skill boost), the DR/Magic (which seems less useful later on) and the ability of the familiar to use your higher end class features. Is this enough to make a familiar a worthy combatant at later levels?

I assume that the Vigilante would play the role of scout to some degree, and would always try to ambush the opponent whenever possible (to take advantage of his features). The Magical Child would want to do this even more so, since they could, in theory, use all the basic features twice with the familiar striking right before, or right after the magical child.

[Florian]

The 3 advantages of a Magical Child's Familiar over a regular familiar seems to be the free Improved Familiar class feat (and the ability to swap out your improved familiar with a regular familiar with a 5 round action, in case you need the skill boost), the DR/Magic (which seems less useful later on) and the ability of the familiar to use your higher end class features. Is this enough to make a familiar a worthy combatant at later levels?

I assume that the Vigilante would play the role of scout to some degree, and would always try to ambush the opponent whenever possible (to take advantage of his features). The Magical Child would want to do this even more so, since they could, in theory, use all the basic features twice with the familiar striking right before, or right after the magical child.

Magical Child has the benefit of using the Summoner spell list with full cost reduction in place and thereby has access to some pretty hefty spells, especially Binding, Summoning and heavy-duty buffing. As it needs the Animal Guide to access spells/refresh spells and a dead Animal Guide blocks that, bringing the Familiar into combat can seriously cripple the character.

I think it´s actually best to load up with charisma and summoning/calling related feats and spells and simply swamp the area with critters, starting out well hidden.

[Legowarrior]

Magical Child has the benefit of using the Summoner spell list with full cost reduction in place and thereby has access to some pretty hefty spells, especially Binding, Summoning and heavy-duty buffing. As it needs the Animal Guide to access spells/refresh spells and a dead Animal Guide blocks that, bringing the Familiar into combat can seriously cripple the character.

I think it´s actually best to load up with charisma and summoning/calling related feats and spells and simply swamp the area with critters, starting out well hidden.

Well, it has access to the unchained summoners list. Which isn't as powerful and doesn't have nearly as many cost reductions in place (read none).

[Florian]

Well, it has access to the unchained summoners list. Which isn't as powerful and doesn't have nearly as many cost reductions in place (read none).

Still better of than some of the other casting Vigilantes and only topped by the Magus, really.

[Legowarrior]

I can see that.
The class it selfseems to literary double down the vigilantes ambush potential.

[AlurenDarkfire]

As it needs the Animal Guide to access spells/refresh spells and a dead Animal Guide blocks that, bringing the Familiar into combat can seriously cripple the character.

Where is that stated? The MC casts as a Summoner, so the spells refresh on their own, I thought. No familiar required.

[Florian]

Where is that stated? The MC casts as a Summoner, so the spells refresh on their own, I thought. No familiar required.

Right in the Spellcasting section: "A magical child needs to commune with her animal guide for 1 hour in order to replenish her daily spell slots."

[AlurenDarkfire]

I missed that part. Yeah, you're right, that does put a bit of risk into encounters.

[Florian]

I missed that part. Yeah, you're right, that does put a bit of risk into encounters.

Add 24h waiting time to start the required 8h ritual and it becomes even less appealing.