Phantom Thief

[Triskavanski]

Alright so I've been looking at the Phantom Thief, and I like it. It loses Trapfinding/Trapsense and Sneak Attack, but in terms of a skill monkey, there is nothing better imo.Every skill except fly is a class skill and You gain half your rogue level in one skill, and every odd level you choose another one. This also functions as a skill unlock, and lets you have higher rank stuff faster. (For example at level 7 if you put all the ranks into an ability, you'd have the level 10 unlock.)

I'm just trying to figure out which 10 I'd want, and how soon I'd want each one, as some are complete duds (Climb can be done with a single ninja trick mostly.) others are ho-hum until later levels (bluff for example.)

To that regard, if you were playing a totally phantom thief type character, what would be some of the better social talents to pick up from vigilante?

[Psyren]

I honestly don't like it. I mean yeah, it's a novel idea to get the skill unlocks early (particularly the level 15 and 20 ones, which other rogues often miss out on entirely), but in exchange it removes nearly all of your offensive capability (sneak attack/debilitating injury), practically turning you into an expert. Even in PFS, where you'd never get your third skill unlock without this thing, I'm not seeing any that wow me.

But it's not just the loss of those two abilities that hurts it - it's the loss of trapfinding/trap sense too, which isn't actually that important an ability by itself (after all, you can get it back with a trait), but because that cuts out a lot of useful archetypes you'd otherwise have been compatible with. This includes just about all of the "pseudo-casting" archetypes - Eldritch Scoundrel, Counterfeit Mage, Undeground Chemist, and Scroll Scoundrel. And without sneak attack, traps or magic, you're left with... nothing.

Anyway - if you must use this, the main benefits are the early unlocks as stated previously. It sounds like it rounds down, so you'd get the level 5 unlock at 4th, the level 10 unlock at 7th, the level 15 unlock at 10th and the level 20 unlock at 14th. Some of my choices would be:

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Perception: You get your full bonus within a massive radius (up to 60ft), can perceive without penalty while sleeping, and get a bonus to notice invisible targets. It's the most-rolled skill in the game, so that's a no-brainer.
Diplomacy: Fast diplomacy is always useful, and it seems you'll have to talk your way out of trouble a lot with this since you can't fight.
Use Magic Device: This removes the natural 1 lockout, giving you a boost to your WBL-mancy (which you'll need since there's practically nothing else.)
Disable Device: If there are still traps to deal with, you can interact with them more safely, even negating/countering their triggers when you fail.
Acrobatics: Easier full-speed tumble is nice, as are using skill checks in place of reflex saves/CMD and standing up from prone without provoking.
Escape Artist: This pretty much becomes Ex Freedom of Movement at 10th level.
Sense Motive: EX Detect Thoughts is good enough, but you also get an untyped initiative bonus under many circumstances as well as an immediate AC bonus vs. one opponent that (a) applies to touch AC and (b) can negate their first attack entirely no matter what they rolled.
Bluff: Fool divinations, including alignment-reading ones.
Stealth: This is less useful for you since you gave up sneak attack, but it doesn't hurt either. You'll likely need as much bonus to hit things as you can get.

More situational ones would include:

Heal: If you're in a low-magic/no-magic campaign this is a good choice, but otherwise I'd skip it. Basically it lets you provide 3 days of healing in 1 hour.
Appraise: If you actually have to steal and fence stuff in an intrigue campaign you might want this, plus it helps you beat illusions.
Disguise: Lets you disguise yourself on the fly without using magic. Mundane disguises are hard to beat but most of the time, illusions work fine.

Basically, I'd pick skills to master that help me avoid a fight (Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perception, Escape Artist etc) as much as possible.

[Triskavanski]

While you lose sneak attack, you do have the ability to gain A combat trick for every rogue talent if you wanted to. Which would actually put you two feats a head of fighter if you are using a race that could get 3 bonus rogue talents.

And yeah, there is a few archetype that I saw that could stack, Particularly the Cat Burgler. Which you could use to make a 'Catwoman' type character. (I just wish you could get a vigilante identity, if even as a special archetype only rogue talent.)

And yeah, Trapfinding hurts. If they just left the ability to do magical traps still it would be fine, since you can get the skill bonuses from other things easily enough.


EDIT:

Of course, probably the most wicked way of using it would be getting Bookish Rogue & however many Major Magics you want. Why yes, you can cast 30 first level spells a day, with just a few talents being used there. Enough for an easy disguise self, or vanish, expeditious retreat, unseen servent etc.

Two Unlocks I think could be useful is the intimidate one and Profession. Intimidate + Eerie Disappearance could help quite a bit.

Profession cause gold is nice. Even if its just handful of gold, its a halful of gold every day. Though this one depends a lot on the campaign.

[Slithery D]

The Phantom Thief is pretty optimal for the rogue who doesn't want to be in combat at all, you're supposed to be Thomas Crowne and outwit/avoid the opposition, not punch or slice your way out. You can talk or sneak your way past most obstacles, and if you can't you have the ability to crank your Intimidate to absurd levels and make them run away while you run the other direction.

[Triskavanski]

I'm thinking of doing a build of some kind, Something like Vigilante 2/Phantom Thief 18.

The vigilante is to get the vigilante persona so I could do my thiefing without running into truth magic and divination crushing me.

[BladeofObliviom]

Taking it to 20 would be...weak, I think. Trapfinding isn't totally necessary to be effective, but it's embarrassing to lose since Phantom Thief gives up the primary reasons why a party would hire a rogue on an adventure. Disable Device's skill unlocks provide a worse version of Trapfinding, but it's just not the same.

If I were to actually build a Phantom Thief, I'd dip something that does get Trapfinding, possibly Dungeon Rover Ranger or one of the Bard Archetypes that gets it before going into the Rogue itself. Most skill unlocks are underwhelming but some are fairly powerful, and the accelerated progression allows some things that would otherwise be totally ineffectual in a normal game to be quite interesting.

For example, 20 rank skill unlocks come online at character level 14 for a Phantom Thief, even if you dip up to two levels of something else. This provides the rogue a sudden ability to perform party crafting services without having to spend feats on it. Perception's unlocks combined with the massive bonuses should allow your Phantom Thief to reliably identify incoming threats long enough in advance that your party should get a bit longer to prepare for them. The Knowledges (individually-taken but the big four aren't so bad since you get so many Rogue's Edges) basically grant a weaker Knowledge devotion effect. Intimidate's unlocks allow for some really potent fear-stacking with effective use of Demoralize. Sense Motive gives initiative bonuses, the ability to nonmagically read thoughts, and eventually allows you to gain a bit of AC or even cancel an incoming attack as an immediate action.

Skill unlocks are generally pretty bad but there are a few diamonds in the rough there.

[avr]

Two Unlocks I think could be useful is the intimidate one and Profession. Intimidate + Eerie Disappearance could help quite a bit.

Profession cause gold is nice. Even if its just handful of gold, its a halful of gold every day. Though this one depends a lot on the campaign.

That's certainly the first favourable comment I've seen for the Profession skill unlock. The handful of money really is ridiculously small compared to WBL unless you take years out to earn, which is not a normal part of campaigns IME.

The intimidate skill unlock with the phantom thief archetype is worse than the thug archetype's intimidate by quite a bit. Skill unlocks really need to be better for this archetype to be worthwhile.

[Triskavanski]

I'll agree that many of the unlocks are not super amazing. Some are just barely functional.

But you know the intimidate one, The enemy that you managed to exceed the DC by 20, the enemy has to make 4 saving throws against your ability? The lower level abilities are not replaced by the higher level ones after all...

Skill unlocks though are not the only thing you get form this archetype either. You do get the ability to take up to 10 combat feats normally. Humans (and ones with the similar racial class bonus) could get an additional 3 feats. Or you could get something like 120 first level Wizard/sorcerer spells per day, that with bookish rogue could be replaced out with all kinds of spells in there. You could do a blending of them even along with the other rogue talents, social talents or if you wanted, skill focus feats.

[avr]

But you know the intimidate one, The enemy that you managed to exceed the DC by 20, the enemy has to make 4 saving throws against your ability? The lower level abilities are not replaced by the higher level ones after all...

And a thug rogue who beats the intimidate DC by 20 frightens the enemy with no save. Don't compare the archetype to a character with no investment in the tactic.

Skill unlocks though are not the only thing you get form this archetype either. You do get the ability to take up to 10 combat feats normally. Humans (and ones with the similar racial class bonus) could get an additional 3 feats. Or you could get something like 120 first level Wizard/sorcerer spells per day, that with bookish rogue could be replaced out with all kinds of spells in there. You could do a blending of them even along with the other rogue talents, social talents or if you wanted, skill focus feats.

By the time you could get that many spells first level spells are redundant. Point on the feats though, there probably is something amazing you can do with that.

[BladeofObliviom]

And a thug rogue who beats the intimidate DC by 20 frightens the enemy with no save. Don't compare the archetype to a character with no investment in the tactic.

This is true enough but I'll point out that Thug does not get a large bonus to intimidate (like the 1/2 level that PT gets) to accomplish something like that; reliably beating the DC by 20 is harder than it sounds given that the DC is based on HD and thus scales at the same rate as skill ranks unless you can cobble together a significant number of additional bonuses.

Further, Skill Unlocks only need to beat the DC by 10 to inflict frightened, and it happens on top of the shaken effect rather than replacing it; even if the opponent passes the save, the Shaken stays. Skill Unlock Intimidate also progresses to Panicked and then Cowering as you go up in level, while Thug's ability never gets any better than 1 round of Frightened. It's also worth noting that the Save DC is based on your number of ranks in the skill and Phantom Thief adds +1/2 level effective ranks in the skill for the purpose of skill unlocks, so the Save DC quickly becomes extremely threatening. A level 5 Phantom Thief is tossing out a respectable DC 17 will save vs Frightened, and a level 10 one is throwing out DC 25.

No save is nice, but it's ridiculous to assert that the Skill Unlock has nothing to offer in comparison to a thug.

[Triskavanski]

Like blade stated.


Overall the thug archetype is largely irrelevant. Yes, it can do something slightly functionally different than how someone with the unlock for intimidate could do it. Possibly better. Possibly worse. But It isn't a fullstop absolute replacement of everything that is given with the phantom thief. The rogue doesn't suck because a fighter has full bab and a rogue has only 3/4s. The rogue sucks for completely other reasons.


And 120 first level spells isn't really something you'd shoot for anyways. Like I said in the last sentence, you can blend together them, your rogue talents, combat feats, skill focus and social talents with your incredible ability to perform skills.

For example, using Subtle Devices with the UMD and Stealth skill bonuses, you could perform a lot of scrolls, wands and other magic devices, in a way that people won't even know it just happened.

With the combat feats you could get improved init, awareness (From normal feats obviously), lighting reflexes (again from normal feats) Quick draw, ready for anything and then pick up cunning intuition. (Then you could even take Armor Focus and Sprightly Armor to get more init)

This would be easily done for a fighter of course, Except that 12 ranks in sense motive.


Skill Focus leads to some interesting things. You could start picking up a bloodline of some kind, Possibly feats (while some not super duper amazing slaughter everything) You've got

Edritch Heritage - Skill Focus (???)
Deft Catcher - Skill Focus (Slight of Hand)
Esoteric Linguistics - Skill Focus (Linguistics)
Hell Cat Stealth - Skill Focus (Stealth) (This one is actually pretty good for a sneaky dude)
Orator - Skill Focus (Linguistics)
Threatening Negotiator - Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Acrobatic Spell Caster - Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
Owl Style - Skill Focus (Stealth)

[Slithery D]

It's also worth noting that the Save DC is based on your number of ranks in the skill and Phantom Thief adds +1/2 level effective ranks in the skill for the purpose of skill unlocks, so the Save DC quickly becomes extremely threatening.

The bold part is correct, but the rest is not. The Save DC is based on your number of ranks in the skill, full stop. It doesn't get your +3 class skill bonus, it doesn't get your Cha bonus, it doesn't get any feat bonuses, and it doesn't get your Phantom Thief half level to skill bonus, as all of these things only provide bonuses to actual skill checks, not increases to your static ranks used in DC calculations.

This mechanic really sucks for optimization, and it's one Paizo is increasingly using. (See Concealed Casting feat in UI, there are several others in the book.) I'd certainly support a house rule the other way, but it is a house rule.

[BladeofObliviom]

The bold part is correct, but the rest is not. The Save DC is based on your number of ranks in the skill, full stop. It doesn't get your +3 class skill bonus, it doesn't get your Cha bonus, it doesn't get any feat bonuses, and it doesn't get your Phantom Thief half level to skill bonus, as all of these things only provide bonuses to actual skill checks, not increases to your static ranks used in DC calculations.

This mechanic really sucks for optimization, and it's one Paizo is increasingly using. (See Concealed Casting feat in UI, there are several others in the book.) I'd certainly support a house rule the other way, but it is a house rule.

I claimed none of those things; the +1/2 level explicitly counts toward your ranks for the purpose of Skill Unlocks.

I'm not going to claim it's godlike power but it's certainly not nothing. +1.5 DC/level is faster than saves usually grow.

[squiggit]

She adds half her level when determining when she receives a skill unlock.

I don't think you get that half level bonus any other time.

[Slithery D]

Here's the text.

Refined Education (Ex): A phantom thief adds Handle Animal, Heal, Ride, Spellcraft, Survival, and all Knowledge skills to her list of class skills. Furthermore, she selects one of her rogue class skills and adds half her rogue level on all skill checks using that skill. At 3rd level and every 2 rogue levels thereafter, she selects an additional rogue class skill and adds half her rogue level on all skill checks using that skill as well. Starting at 4th level, if the phantom thief is an unchained rogue, she gains rogue’s edge skill unlocks with each of these skills rather than selecting one skill every 5 levels, and she adds half her rogue level to her number of ranks to determine when she receives a skill unlock (so a 7th level rogue (phantom thief) with 7 ranks in a chosen skill would count as having 10 ranks and receive the second skill unlock).

None of this increases any DC that is dependent on skill ranks. That will always and forever be limited by your actual character level, with no bonuses available. You can't optimize or pump these skill rank based DCs, and it does seomwhat suck.

However, the base scaling of 10 + Rank isn't that bad, and is often in line with a Wizard casting his highest level spell without perfect optimization. For example, a level 20 Phantom Thief has a DC of 30, comparable to a Wizard casting a 9th level spell with a +11 bonus from Int or Spell Focus. He can do better with investment of resources, but you can spam yours all day and you get the benefit of multiple saves for lesser effects, so I think Intimidate unlocks are still ok. They just can't be as great or as irresistible as claimed up thread.

[Deadkitten]

so since the phantom thief can get a lot of combat feats, does this mean that now Paizo has a feat rogue equivalent?

[BladeofObliviom]

She adds half her level when determining when she receives a skill unlock.

I don't think you get that half level bonus any other time.

Aha! That's what I get for making claims without the text in front of me.

[Triskavanski]

You know, a Phantom Thief using Snake style could be pretty nasty.

Get Level + half level + wis mod + 1d20 + class bonus + other mis mods in sense motive.. use sense motive as AC one per round.


EDIT: I mean sure, the Unlock is better than the Snake Style feat once you get to level 20 unlock. But with a Stamina Pool you can make a few AoO versions of Snake Style, but you get a free attack every time the enemy misses too.



Anything else out there that replaces things with a skill check?

[Woodoodoo]

I am necro-bumping the **** out of this post because I NEED to play this archetype. It's hilariously cool. And I think hell's rebels might be the right AP for it. I feel like you could get away with just two handing an elven curved blade in combat or perhaps somehow using my first level spells from major magic. I am still wondering how exactly to build it because there are a lot of customization options. Anyone have experience playing it?

[Psyren]

As I stated a year ago, this archetype is underwhelming. We could probably cobble something together if you want to optimize it though (in a new thread.)

[CasualViking]

The Phantom Thief is really good at skills. Maybe - maybe - even better than an Investigator. However, skills are mostly a ****-tier substitute for actual class abilities.