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Thread: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
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2016-04-20, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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"Sis Puella Magica!" translation
So, the soundtrack of Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica is bothering a friend of mine. The majority of the track titles are in Latin and one of them is "Sis Puella Magica!". The English translation on the wiki is "You should be a magical girl!"
My friend believes that the use of sis here is incorrect. Sis is second person present subjunctive, while he believes the English translation would suggest an imperative mood. I was wondering the same. It would be optative in another language, but Latin doesn't have an optative, so it has to be one of the two... but I don't remember which. It's been years since either of us had any formal training, so we're not sure.
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2016-04-20, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
I couldn't find "sis" from the verb chart of the verb "to be": http://conjugador.reverso.net/conjug...verbo-ser.html
I don't know. I don't speak Spanish one bit, but I'm just saying that it's not there. Are you sure it wasn't "seas", as in "tú seas"?
In Portuguese, the imperative would be:
"Seja uma moça mágica!"
Present subjunctive mood would be:
"....que você seja uma moça mágica" but this would require a bit more substance, like in English: "....that you were a magical girl."Last edited by Jon_Dahl; 2016-04-20 at 10:36 AM.
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2016-04-20, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
Is "should" necessarily imperative? If I were to say, "I should be so lucky!", I would consider that roughly equivalent to "if only I were so lucky!"
Wikipedia says: "The auxiliary should is used to make another compound form that might be regarded as a subjunctive, and, in any case, it is frequently used as an alternative to the simple present subjunctive."
It might just be an ambiguity in English, "should" being used for different moods.Last edited by blunk; 2016-04-20 at 01:29 AM.
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2016-04-20, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
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2016-04-20, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
You can't infer what it should be based on a translation/another language's patterns. Even between related languages, there are lots of differences in nuances (enhanced by the bastard origins of English in this case). There's actually an argument to be made that modern Germanic and Romance languages have no moods aside from subjunctive (and in some cases that can be analysed away).
Aaanyways, "sīs" (basically "siis") is indeed correct conjunctive/subjunctive 2nd person for Latin "esse". Present subjunctive in Latin often carries meanings that in the present linguistic theory would generally be analysed as optatives or jussives (depends on the subject). 2nd person present subjunctive is primarily optative with the jussive (basically polite imperative) meanings mostly occurring in poetry. Thus, the subjunctive actually means precisely the optative you mentioned in this case.Last edited by Eldariel; 2016-04-20 at 03:19 AM.
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2016-04-20, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
Latin is a different language from Spanish. Plus, as a wise man once said, when comparing two languages, it's useful to know at least one of them.
Anyway, there is a whole chapter of Latin grammar concerning the use of subjunctive within main clauses. This particular case seems to be an exhortation to me, because of where the verb is placed, but it could also be something else.
(Utinam) puella magica sis = O I wish you were a magic girl (which you can become, since it's in present form)
sis puella magica = come on, be a magic girl
sis puella magica, at stulta es = even if we admit that you are a magic girl, you're still dumb
sis puella magica = let's assume that you are a magic girl.
I'd be curious to hear that argument or to get a link to it, given that Italian has indicative, subjunctive, conditional, imperative. Maybe the English meaning of mood is different from the one I use (mine would actually also include infinite, gerundium, participles).Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2016-04-20, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
It doesn't make a sweeping statement of all the Romance and Germanic languages, a position I may have mistakenly represented in my last post. The argument is in the opening article of "Moods in the Languages of Europe" edited by Björn Rothstein and Rolf Thieroff. You can find a Google preview here, but it's unfortunately missing some pages. It basically boils down to analysis of tense vs. mood, placing conditional as a tense (past future, basically). It is suggested that imperative could be analysed as a sentence type akin to declaratives and interrogatives. I misremembered; it only lists Germanic languages as being in the process losing subjunctive and thus becoming technically moodless. As always in the field, it's mostly a matter of definitions though.
Last edited by Eldariel; 2016-04-20 at 05:26 AM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
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2016-04-20, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
I suppose that's true. Your examples sound optative too, though.
It's more that he disagrees with the English translation.
That sounds about right. I'll have to defer to you two. The reference I had on subjunctives gave no optative or polite imperative examples, although it did include negative imperatives.
We both really should know better, but like I said, years.
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2016-04-20, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation
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