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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    So, the soundtrack of Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica is bothering a friend of mine. The majority of the track titles are in Latin and one of them is "Sis Puella Magica!". The English translation on the wiki is "You should be a magical girl!"

    My friend believes that the use of sis here is incorrect. Sis is second person present subjunctive, while he believes the English translation would suggest an imperative mood. I was wondering the same. It would be optative in another language, but Latin doesn't have an optative, so it has to be one of the two... but I don't remember which. It's been years since either of us had any formal training, so we're not sure.

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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    I couldn't find "sis" from the verb chart of the verb "to be": http://conjugador.reverso.net/conjug...verbo-ser.html
    I don't know. I don't speak Spanish one bit, but I'm just saying that it's not there. Are you sure it wasn't "seas", as in "tú seas"?

    In Portuguese, the imperative would be:
    "Seja uma moça mágica!"
    Present subjunctive mood would be:
    "....que você seja uma moça mágica" but this would require a bit more substance, like in English: "....that you were a magical girl."
    Last edited by Jon_Dahl; 2016-04-20 at 10:36 AM.

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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    Is "should" necessarily imperative? If I were to say, "I should be so lucky!", I would consider that roughly equivalent to "if only I were so lucky!"

    Wikipedia says: "The auxiliary should is used to make another compound form that might be regarded as a subjunctive, and, in any case, it is frequently used as an alternative to the simple present subjunctive."

    It might just be an ambiguity in English, "should" being used for different moods.
    Last edited by blunk; 2016-04-20 at 01:29 AM.

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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    Quote Originally Posted by blunk View Post
    It might just be an ambiguity in English, "should" being used for different moods.
    That, probably. Given the whole
    Spoiler: TItle spoilers
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    "Puella Magi can mean Pure Mage or Slave of the Liar"
    thing I happen to think Madoka Magica knows what it's doing with regards to Latin.

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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    You can't infer what it should be based on a translation/another language's patterns. Even between related languages, there are lots of differences in nuances (enhanced by the bastard origins of English in this case). There's actually an argument to be made that modern Germanic and Romance languages have no moods aside from subjunctive (and in some cases that can be analysed away).

    Aaanyways, "sīs" (basically "siis") is indeed correct conjunctive/subjunctive 2nd person for Latin "esse". Present subjunctive in Latin often carries meanings that in the present linguistic theory would generally be analysed as optatives or jussives (depends on the subject). 2nd person present subjunctive is primarily optative with the jussive (basically polite imperative) meanings mostly occurring in poetry. Thus, the subjunctive actually means precisely the optative you mentioned in this case.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2016-04-20 at 03:19 AM.
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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl View Post
    I couldn't find "sis" from the verb chart of the verb "to be": http://conjugador.reverso.net/conjug...verbo-ser.html
    I don't know. I don't speak Spanish one bit, but I'm just saying that it's not there. Are you sure it was "seas", as in "tú seas"?

    In Portuguese, the imperative would be:
    "Seja uma moça mágica!"
    Present subjunctive mood would be:
    "....que você seja uma moça mágica" but this would require a bit more substance, like in English: "....that you were a magical girl."
    Latin is a different language from Spanish. Plus, as a wise man once said, when comparing two languages, it's useful to know at least one of them.

    Anyway, there is a whole chapter of Latin grammar concerning the use of subjunctive within main clauses. This particular case seems to be an exhortation to me, because of where the verb is placed, but it could also be something else.
    (Utinam) puella magica sis = O I wish you were a magic girl (which you can become, since it's in present form)
    sis puella magica = come on, be a magic girl
    sis puella magica, at stulta es = even if we admit that you are a magic girl, you're still dumb
    sis puella magica = let's assume that you are a magic girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    There's actually an argument to be made that modern Germanic and Romance languages have no moods aside from subjunctive (and in some cases that can be analysed away).
    I'd be curious to hear that argument or to get a link to it, given that Italian has indicative, subjunctive, conditional, imperative. Maybe the English meaning of mood is different from the one I use (mine would actually also include infinite, gerundium, participles).
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I'd be curious to hear that argument or to get a link to it, given that Italian has indicative, subjunctive, conditional, imperative. Maybe the English meaning of mood is different from the one I use (mine would actually also include infinite, gerundium, participles).
    It doesn't make a sweeping statement of all the Romance and Germanic languages, a position I may have mistakenly represented in my last post. The argument is in the opening article of "Moods in the Languages of Europe" edited by Björn Rothstein and Rolf Thieroff. You can find a Google preview here, but it's unfortunately missing some pages. It basically boils down to analysis of tense vs. mood, placing conditional as a tense (past future, basically). It is suggested that imperative could be analysed as a sentence type akin to declaratives and interrogatives. I misremembered; it only lists Germanic languages as being in the process losing subjunctive and thus becoming technically moodless. As always in the field, it's mostly a matter of definitions though.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2016-04-20 at 05:26 AM.
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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    Quote Originally Posted by blunk View Post
    Is "should" necessarily imperative? If I were to say, "I should be so lucky!", I would consider that roughly equivalent to "if only I were so lucky!"

    Wikipedia says: "The auxiliary should is used to make another compound form that might be regarded as a subjunctive, and, in any case, it is frequently used as an alternative to the simple present subjunctive."

    It might just be an ambiguity in English, "should" being used for different moods.
    I suppose that's true. Your examples sound optative too, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    You can't infer what it should be based on a translation/another language's patterns.
    It's more that he disagrees with the English translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Present subjunctive in Latin often carries meanings that in the present linguistic theory would generally be analysed as optatives or jussives (depends on the subject). 2nd person present subjunctive is primarily optative with the jussive (basically polite imperative) meanings mostly occurring in poetry. Thus, the subjunctive actually means precisely the optative you mentioned in this case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Anyway, there is a whole chapter of Latin grammar concerning the use of subjunctive within main clauses. This particular case seems to be an exhortation to me, because of where the verb is placed, but it could also be something else.
    (Utinam) puella magica sis = O I wish you were a magic girl (which you can become, since it's in present form)
    sis puella magica = come on, be a magic girl
    sis puella magica, at stulta es = even if we admit that you are a magic girl, you're still dumb
    sis puella magica = let's assume that you are a magic girl.
    That sounds about right. I'll have to defer to you two. The reference I had on subjunctives gave no optative or polite imperative examples, although it did include negative imperatives.

    We both really should know better, but like I said, years.

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    Default Re: "Sis Puella Magica!" translation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Latin is a different language from Spanish. Plus, as a wise man once said, when comparing two languages, it's useful to know at least one of them.

    Anyway, there is a whole chapter of Latin grammar concerning the use of subjunctive within main clauses. This particular case seems to be an exhortation to me, because of where the verb is placed, but it could also be something else.
    (Utinam) puella magica sis = O I wish you were a magic girl (which you can become, since it's in present form)
    sis puella magica = come on, be a magic girl
    sis puella magica, at stulta es = even if we admit that you are a magic girl, you're still dumb
    sis puella magica = let's assume that you are a magic girl.
    I don't know how I understood that the OP was talking about Spanish, but it's ok. I already gave my contribution :-)

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