Batman or Spider-man?

[Zigwat]

This has been a question that has plagued me for literally DECADES! I have asked so many people out there, and there are so many opinions on the matter. Almost every one of the people I meet are on one side or the other, but there are some who are met with the same question. Who is the better Comicbook hero? Spider-man or Batman?

Yes, you can make a case that Batman is for DC and Spider-man is for Marvel, but they are both my favorite of all time. Now, I know they are not the favorite for everyone, but even if they're not, people usually have an opinion on who is better. Yet, I cannot find anything that could sway my vote either way on the matter, and I have definitely tried.

Some would say that Spider-man is better because he actually has Super Powers, and Batman does not. Well, that's a silly reason to like Spider-man better. Batman not having super powers just endears him more because he's done many feats that Spider-man has, and without that one advantage. Many would say that Batman was better because he has been turned into a god. Well, that wouldn't even sway my vote, because, really, I've never liked God-Modding in any way shape or form. Plus, Spider-man has had cosmic energy at his disposal before in order to defeat extremely powerful bad guys.

Spider-Man has a strong case lately. Spider-verse is probably the greatest storyline they could have cashed in on with its own comicbook series (I.E. Web Warriors). It's ten times better than Batman Corps. I honestly didn't want a million Batmen from every country just to see them all get killed off or never seen again. Spider Gwen is definitely a front runner for the greatest Spider-man doppelganger.


There has just never been a deciding factor for me, and I still can't be clear. I love both of them, and their comic storylines have very seldom disappointed. I just wanted to ask you guys who you would pick out of the two. If you want, just tell me between the two, and tell me your favorite comicbook hero overall along with them, it's not a strict thread by any means.



So what'dya think, sirs?

[Dragonexx]

[KillingAScarab]

This has been a question that has plagued me for literally DECADES!...

Yes, you can make a case that Batman is for DC and Spider-man is for Marvel, but they are both my favorite of all time. Now, I know they are not the favorite for everyone, but even if they're not, people usually have an opinion on who is better. Yet, I cannot find anything that could sway my vote either way on the matter, and I have definitely tried.

...

There has just never been a deciding factor for me, and I still can't be clear. I love both of them, and their comic storylines have very seldom disappointed.

I think you're allowed to like both of them equally. You can like them for different reasons, especially since there have been so many different versions of the characters, not even counting the effect different creative teams have upon the media they are featured in. So I'm going to respond to the real question of preference you raised.

So what'dya think, sirs?

I prefer Mike over Joel.

[Zigwat]

Dragonexx, if you'll read, this is not a thread about who would win in a fight. This is about who is preferred as a character.


Scarab, you are right. Just straight up right. However, the problem is that when it comes right down to it, I would like to decide on just one. It's just that the fact that they are a stalemate has bothered me for a while because I consider myself very decisive when it comes to things that I like. When people ask what my favorite movie is, simple, V for Vendetta. What's my favorite Mortal Kombat character? Sure, Subzero. Favorite TV Show? Mystery Science Theater 3000 (Good catch, by the way.)

I can't say for a fact that even if I come down to a decision using their statistics and score boards that I will love one of them truly more, I just really want one decisive answer for myself, and hell, it's an awesome topic, so why not talk about it?

Thank you for your reply Scarab, by all means, stay a while and we can debate all we want. It's up to you.

[Knaight]

Between the two, I dislike Spiderman less. Batman is a super rich man who chose to spend a bunch of money becoming a vigilante instead of doing any number of useful things with it, who tends to show up in stories about beating people up or shenanigans involving improbable degrees of preparation. Spiderman shows up a lot more in the context of things like self sacrifice, and is just generally more likable. Plus, the Spiderman character tends to prevent the writer from taking them too seriously, as they just aren't well calibrated for it. Batman ends up in pointlessly edgy nonsense all the time.

[digiman619]

Batman. Not because he's the mimetic badass that can breathe in space and all the 'Chuck Norris List' type stuff that flows around him, but because Marvel won't let Spidey be written with maturity. Batman had a son, who later became Robin. There was a bunch of interesting story told with that. Marvel's afraid of letting Spider-Man grow up, so they had the brilliant idea of One More Day. Batman's had a friend or two turn bad (most notably Two-Face), and lost a few friends (Jason Todd leaps to mind). Practically everyone Spidey knows either dies horribly (Gwen Stacy, for example) or turns evil (Eddie Brock, Norman Osborne, Otto Octavius, etc, etc, etc,). Batman makes plans for every eventuality. Spidey never even so much as buys life insurance. So on all accounts, Batman.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why not both?

[Dienekes]

I prefer the Bat, mostly because I like his villains better and enjoy him more in ensemble parts than Spider-man. Also, when I actively read comics they both were written to do some pretty stupid things, but Batman's stupid writing seemed trivial when compared to some of the stupid things Spidey was written to do.

[Anteros]

Between the two, I dislike Spiderman less. Batman is a super rich man who chose to spend a bunch of money becoming a vigilante instead of doing any number of useful things with it, who tends to show up in stories about beating people up or shenanigans involving improbable degrees of preparation. Spiderman shows up a lot more in the context of things like self sacrifice, and is just generally more likable. Plus, the Spiderman character tends to prevent the writer from taking them too seriously, as they just aren't well calibrated for it. Batman ends up in pointlessly edgy nonsense all the time.

Batman pours millions upon millions into Gotham as Bruce Wayne. It's a constant theme in the comics. Gotham is just so corrupt it doesn't fix anything. Because throwing money at a problem doesn't necessarily fix the problem. Especially in a comic book.

[Ramza00]

Why not both?

Batman Beyond stuff...

Agreed.

That said there are differences of Terry McGinnis with personality compared to Peter Parker, and Bruce Wayne. (Terry is much more of a feeler / idealist, while both Peter and Bruce are rational archetypes of personality). Depending on the story and the writter but Terry McGinnis is an INFP while Petet Parker is an INTP and Bruce Wayne is the brooding, obsessed, strategic mastermind and over thinker with the INTJ personality.

That said Terry McGennis was purposefully specifically crafted to be someone who takes much of the Spiderman mythos in both villian design but also personality of Terry being different than Batman with a more spontaneous bent, and also like the young Peter Parker who just gain his superpowers is a person who is a High School kid who is fighting crime and is yet entering a world that is literally beyond his comprehension and his stress level.

After several years of telling Batman stories in the DCAU the whole pitch of Terry was someone who was a kid caught up in something crazy. Someone who was not batman yet at the same time was just as smart, talented, and determined yet in a different way than Bruce Wayne.

Him growing up into his suit, and surpassing just keeping up with his responsibilities but instead exceeding all expectations, him becoming his own batman and making his town a better place is a coming of age story that you just can't do with Bruce Wayne, the type of stories you tell with Bruce Wayne are just different, yet the stories you can tell with Terry are very similar to the younger version of Peter Parker.

Instead the Bruce Wayne formula is about redeeming a town that has been Corrupt and lacks a White / Dark Knight.

One story is about stepping up, and another story is about enduring even if it means sacrificing your humanity to hold back the horrors of the world. Bruce story is about not giving up, when you look at the void, the darkness of humanity, can you remain not a monster yet fight with monsters. That is the story you can tell with Bruce.

One of my favorite clips...welcome to my world



Even though his costume is not named Robin, I have to say Terry McGennis is my favorite robin and arguably is a better heir to the title Batman though I bet some people would fight me on this

-----

Here is one of my favorite heros which has his own unique mixture of attributes and stories.



Lets see some of his themes

A man from another world / culture, yet unlike Clark Kent he is truly different.

Detective Stories

Stories about the difference between true integration vs hiding and playing a part, with a mask of lies and pleasantries hiding the true person inside who finds it hard to integrate or be emotionally open.

John (human name) / J'onn J'onzz is a man who has a personality that is very similar to Batman (both are INTJs) except he is more willing to explore feelings than Bruce Wayne for he while struggling with such a things also realizes that is what brings people together and thus he does not try to bury them like Bruce does. He also does not have the Obsession and Compulsions that Bruce does yet can have that inner resolve and drive that is just as strong yet not as creepy as the Batman.

Pretty much the only problem with John from a storytelling standpoint is his versatility in his powers is such an extreme you need a Justice League threat even if its not a Justice League story and it is focusing on John or just a few other characters.

[Traab]

Batman pours millions upon millions into Gotham as Bruce Wayne. It's a constant theme in the comics. Gotham is just so corrupt it doesn't fix anything. Because throwing money at a problem doesn't necessarily fix the problem. Especially in a comic book.

Hasnt it become cannon that gotham isnt corrupt, its actually cursed to remain a virtual hellscape on earth? Basically no matter what he does, gotham will forever and always suck as a city. I mean think about it. Bruce Wayne is a mega genius. Of COURSE he has thought about donating money or winning a contract build to renovate arkham asylum and make it far more escape proof. Of COURSE he has setup all sorts of charities and programs to try and deter crime, reform criminals, or bring some freaking daylight to the place. But none of it ever works. Its like one of those greek torments and fighting crime is the equivalent of sisyphus rolling that freaking rock up a hill for all eternity.

[Kitten Champion]

Batman pours millions upon millions into Gotham as Bruce Wayne. It's a constant theme in the comics. Gotham is just so corrupt it doesn't fix anything. Because throwing money at a problem doesn't necessarily fix the problem. Especially in a comic book.

The problem with that is... well - he's a smart guy and should know how to invest, and large-scale investments in various systemic efforts to combat poverty and reduce street crime have been shown to work -- as Moviebob argues...



As to corruption, he could deal with that as well. Use influence to bring in state and federal police forces to investigate, and put money to support candidates which would ultimately follow an anti-corruption agenda. Corruption is rooted in money anyways, and Bruce Wayne has more of that than the criminal institutions he's fighting.

[Zigwat]

Batman Beyond stuff...

Agreed.

That said there are differences of Terry McGinnis with personality compared to Peter Parker, and Bruce Wayne. (Terry is much more of a feeler / idealist, while both Peter and Bruce are rational archetypes of personality). Depending on the story and the writter but Terry McGinnis is an INFP while Petet Parker is an INTP and Bruce Wayne is the brooding, obsessed, strategic mastermind and over thinker with the INTJ personality.

That said Terry McGennis was purposefully specifically crafted to be someone who takes much of the Spiderman mythos in both villian design but also personality of Terry being different than Batman with a more spontaneous bent, and also like the young Peter Parker who just gain his superpowers is a person who is a High School kid who is fighting crime and is yet entering a world that is literally beyond his comprehension and his stress level.

After several years of telling Batman stories in the DCAU the whole pitch of Terry was someone who was a kid caught up in something crazy. Someone who was not batman yet at the same time was just as smart, talented, and determined yet in a different way than Bruce Wayne.

Ah, Batman Beyond, yes I do agree that he is a very worthy successor to the cape and cowl, and honestly, it was refreshing to see a continuity where Wayne doesn't cling to Batman like a leech when he's far too old to crime fight anymore. Batman Beyond is a serious strike in Batman's favor, and as I said before, with Spider Gwen being a massive newcomer to the Spider-man franchise, I can see these two butting heads in the same way that Batman and Spider-man have been butting heads for years on my part.

Between the two, though, I would have to side with Spider Gwen. This is more because of the mythos behind Gwen Stacy as a whole, and how her character deserves to be brought back after she died in Earth 616. Not to mention, her comicbooks are amazingly artistic in both story and drawing. Batman Beyond, though, when it comes to a continuation that Batman The Animated Series so sorely needed, was a refreshing drink of water in its own right. So it was a hard decision all around. I just need to get into Batman Beyond as a comicbook, I heard that the comics are also quite well written, I just haven't peeked into one yet.

Good discussion all around guys. I'm loving it!

[Anteros]

The problem with that is... well - he's a smart guy and should know how to invest, and large-scale investments in various systemic efforts to combat poverty and reduce street crime have been shown to work -- as Moviebob argues...



As to corruption, he could deal with that as well. Use influence to bring in state and federal police forces to investigate, and put money to support candidates which would ultimately follow an anti-corruption agenda. Corruption is rooted in money anyways, and Bruce Wayne has more of that than the criminal institutions he's fighting.

He tried that. It is literally explicit in his comics that he has multiple ongoing projects like this. They talk about it all the time. It just doesn't work. It's a comic book.

Also, as rich as Wayne is I'm not convinced he's richer than the corrupt and criminals of an entire city.

[Traab]

He tried that. It is literally explicit in his comics that he has multiple ongoing projects like this. They talk about it all the time. It just doesn't work. It's a comic book.

Also, as rich as Wayne is I'm not convinced he's richer than the corrupt and criminals of an entire city.

Considering he built the justice league space station with funds from waynecorp hidden as a line item in the budget, im not entirely sure of that. Seriously, I always laugh hysterically every time I hear that line from the JLU cartoon. The cost alone is absurd. There is no way his company is worth so many hundreds of trillions of dollars that the cost of a futuristic space station can be hidden by clever accounting. That doesnt even mention the logistics of building and launching the station in such a way that it isnt tracked right to him by anyone with a third grade education. What did he do? Employ thousands of people as slave labor then burn them for rocket fuel after the parts were ready to launch? Bribe every nation on earth capable of tracking rocket launches so they wouldnt pay attention at a specific time of day?

[Lacuna Caster]

As to corruption, he could deal with that as well. Use influence to bring in state and federal police forces to investigate, and put money to support candidates which would ultimately follow an anti-corruption agenda. Corruption is rooted in money anyways, and Bruce Wayne has more of that than the criminal institutions he's fighting.

Batman fails to reform the socioeconomic institutions of Gotham City for the precise same reason Arkham leaks like a sieve- if he did, there would be no more Batman comics. You can't fault the character to failing to win, you could only fault the comics for failing to show a consistent and competent effort on his part.

This is very much a writer-dependent variable, but Dini/Ross' War on Crime might be my favourite example. I can't objectively support the notion that this is The One True Batman, but damnit, he ought to be.

[Dienekes]

The problem with that is... well - he's a smart guy and should know how to invest, and large-scale investments in various systemic efforts to combat poverty and reduce street crime have been shown to work -- as Moviebob argues...



As to corruption, he could deal with that as well. Use influence to bring in state and federal police forces to investigate, and put money to support candidates which would ultimately follow an anti-corruption agenda. Corruption is rooted in money anyways, and Bruce Wayne has more of that than the criminal institutions he's fighting.

The really strange thing with the argument is that in Batman's own comics what he does, does work. Usually, the story follows the following arc:

Batman starts out, initially deals with the mob that owns the city and runs it as though it was still in the 1920s prohibition era crime lordery. Batman cleans that up and backs several honest leaders and politicians, among them is usually Harvey Dent and Commissioner Gordon.

Once the mob has been relegated to normal levels of street crime you're going to find in any city. We see the rise of the freaks, the super villains that don't follow the usual crime patterns that fit in a city that the Batman is cleaning up. Usually among this time we see hints of Batman dealing with corrupt businessmen, using the Wayne company to check for corruption and dishonest businessmen and whatnot, and creating various charities to help impoverished areas.

When the freaks are sort of in hand (but not totally, Penguin, Riddler, Ivy, Two-Face, usually fall out of fashion here while the Joker remains a threat throughout) Batman usually is forced to deal with the conspiracy villains. Usually represented with people like Ra's al-Ghul, Hush, Jeremiah Arkham, or the new Court of Owls to further show just how against Batman the world is. When the story reaches this stage we learn that despite his best efforts there was something completely outside of his control or reason that prevents Gotham from progressing.

More or less concurrently with the above two sections of his story we get Batman feeling comfortable enough to leave Gotham to deal with planet altering threats with the Justice League or sometimes alone. This is when Gotham still needs work, but he's willing to give the reins to someone else for a bit, something he's usually seen as incapable of doing during the first stage.

Now is this all really just an elaborate excuse to tell Batman stories despite the progress Bruce should have been making? Yes. Of course it is. But the authors have gone to lengths to address that Batman is going above and beyond what any other human could do to get his city in order and is making progress. He just lives in a crapsack world where supervillains can exist and those evil conspiracies that secretly run the world to keep the people in check are actually totally legitimate.

That said, going by Movie Bob's video. Batman IS a creepy rich weird guy. That's exactly who he has always been. That Batman is certifiably insane has been done in the comics more times than I can shake my stick at. From the earliest versions of the character Kane had him ignoring his board of directives at Wayne Enterprises to stare at the setting sun, lost in thought over his war on crime. Dismissing everyone and forgetting about what he was supposed to be doing because he's obsessed. That Bruce deserves to be in Arkham along with a good portion of his rogues gallery has been brought up in the comics, the movies, the Batman: The Animated Series tv show (also known as the best Batman). That he's one false move away from going to crazy town is very firmly established in the series.

[Lacuna Caster]

Considering he built the justice league space station with funds from waynecorp hidden as a line item in the budget, im not entirely sure of that. Seriously, I always laugh hysterically every time I hear that line from the JLU cartoon. The cost alone is absurd. There is no way his company is worth so many hundreds of trillions of dollars that the cost of a futuristic space station can be hidden by clever accounting.

I share your skepticism that even a global business empire could single-handedly fund that kind of infrastructure project, but I don't know if there's an intrinsic need for shady accounting- as long as the League's PR is good, keeping them properly accoutred could be just another form of corporate philanthropy. I'm fairly sure STAR Labs and a couple of grateful (or super-run) governments might chip in as well.

EDIT: @Dienekes: +1.

[Kitten Champion]

I think compounding my issue is the perception that most of DC's United States of America is relatively idyllic. Gotham and a few other places are ludicrous outliers where everything is awful all the time because they need that kind of setting for their stories, but there are places like Metropolis which have clean streets, polite citizens, and futuristic architecture everywhere at the same time.

I don't know, I'm still reeling from the lack of logic expressed in Arrow, where Starling/Star City is just silly.

[Zigwat]

Actually, speaking of which, yeah Gotham is pretty much a craptastic city with crime all through it all the time no matter how much Batman cleans it up. Sometimes it has periods of peace, but for the most part, it's a bloodbath.

Why in the hell is Spider-man's city so clean cut? It's New York for God's sake! Yet the crime that he cleans up is mostly isolated incidents. I mean yes, King Pin is there, he's a Spider-man villain (as well as Dare Devil), and there's always the Mob going around, but for the most part, Gotham makes Spider-man's New York look like a children's playground. Isn't that a little nutty?

[Kitten Champion]

Actually, speaking of which, yeah Gotham is pretty much a craptastic city with crime all through it all the time no matter how much Batman cleans it up. Sometimes it has periods of peace, but for the most part, it's a bloodbath.

Why in the hell is Spider-man's city so clean cut? It's New York for God's sake! Yet the crime that he cleans up is mostly isolated incidents. I mean yes, King Pin is there, he's a Spider-man villain (as well as Dare Devil), and there's always the Mob going around, but for the most part, Gotham makes Spider-man's New York look like a children's playground. Isn't that a little nutty?

It's not particularly, if you're reading (older) Daredevil and Punisher comics, though I don't think Marvel wants to portray the centre of their comic universe as irredeemably awful.

However, with regards to Spider-Man, as a character he's never really needed to be made gritty champion of a Miller-esque hell-hole or notably darkened. He transitioned fairly smoothly into the modern age, 90's awfulness aside. This meant the core of the character was largely untouched, which includes two things - high-flying crime-fighting action against mostly colourful supervillains with comedic quips abound, and the melodramatic soap opera which surrounds Peter Parker all the time... with occasional intersections between the two like with Green Goblin and the Osborns.

[Zigwat]

I guess it makes sense that Punisher and Daredevil take care of the extremely gritty crime of New York while Spider-man takes down the Bank Robbers and Purse thieves, with the occasional powerhouse Super Villain.

I will accept that.

[TeChameleon]

I guess it makes sense that Punisher and Daredevil take care of the extremely gritty crime of New York while Spider-man takes down the Bank Robbers and Purse thieves, with the occasional powerhouse Super Villain.

I will accept that.

It honestly makes sense- Peter is legitimately brilliant, but as a science whiz, not a detective. Seriously, what's he going to do about, say, a prostitution ring? Sure, he can beat the crap out of the pimps, but that's not really gonna accomplish a lot, and I have a hard time seeing him doing anything much more involved than a photographic expose or some such.

Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man is there to solve the problems that can be solved by hitting them extremely hard as often as necessary. This being Marvel New York, it's not like there's any shortage of those- and frankly, if they aren't stopped, the gritty crime is going to be pretty irrelevant once Doc Ock accidentally nukes the city because he's too nuts to realize that his 'revolutionary new powersource' isn't properly shielded and will melt a hole to the planet's core, or Venom starts eating random citizens, or whatever.

[Knaight]

Why in the hell is Spider-man's city so clean cut? It's New York for God's sake! Yet the crime that he cleans up is mostly isolated incidents. I mean yes, King Pin is there, he's a Spider-man villain (as well as Dare Devil), and there's always the Mob going around, but for the most part, Gotham makes Spider-man's New York look like a children's playground. Isn't that a little nutty?

The New York crime rate isn't that high. Plenty of people live there for their whole lives and see no major crime.

[Drascin]

I share your skepticism that even a global business empire could single-handedly fund that kind of infrastructure project, but I don't know if there's an intrinsic need for shady accounting- as long as the League's PR is good, keeping them properly accoutred could be just another form of corporate philanthropy. I'm fairly sure STAR Labs and a couple of grateful (or super-run) governments might chip in as well.

EDIT: @Dienekes: +1.

Also probably helps that they can save all the money it would normally take to get things into orbit. Clark, J'onn, Diana, and the rest can just pick up station modules built on the ground and fly them up by hand. That's a whole lot of saved infrastructure!

[Hytheter]

Why in the hell is Spider-man's city so clean cut? It's New York for God's sake! Yet the crime that he cleans up is mostly isolated incidents. I mean yes, King Pin is there, he's a Spider-man villain (as well as Dare Devil), and there's always the Mob going around, but for the most part, Gotham makes Spider-man's New York look like a children's playground. Isn't that a little nutty?

Have you ever sat down and thought about just how many Superheroes live in Marvel's New York? I can't believe there are any crimes still committed there at all.

[paddyfool]

The New York crime rate isn't that high. Plenty of people live there for their whole lives and see no major crime.

It's also not a constant. See here, for instance - violent crime in New York City fell by about 1/3 between 1999 and 2007 from nearly 1000 incidents per 100,000 people to about 600, and then stayed at around that level from 2007 to 2012.



In the same way, Spiderman (and other NY-based superhero comics) will have been written at both high and low crime periods for the city of NY, which may well have altered how they were written.

[Pronounceable]

The more you look at superhero universes, the less sense they make. It's best not to get too caught up over how Richards didn't cure cancer or why Supes doesn't stop wars.

As for the matter at hand, Peter is generally a better character. Bruce is an incredibly blatant power fantasy: handsome rich guy who don't need to work, gets all the girls swooning (but is too cool for any), coasts thru life singularly dedicated to his obsession, is the smartest and the coolest and the richest and handsomest and all other ests, expert at a million martial arts and a billion types of sciences and engineering, blablabla. Despite all his ests, Bruce is lacking something very important: a character. He can be summed up as *broods*. That's why Joker (or any other villain really) always steals the show, a gimmick focused personality is better than none.

Meanwhile, Peter has a personality. He's a nice kid who gets in over his head, and then grows up. He has relationships unrelated to punching, he's not anythingest, he's portrayed as a regular guy who struggles to get by. And then he gets ****ed over by Quesada but we won't hold it against him.


Verdict: Bats is better cos his rogues gallery is cooler

[Raimun]

Hmm... I don't know really.

Batman suffers now days from too much invincibility for a guy who could be killed with a single bullet. The reason for this is that because he's as iconic as Superman, he needs to be able to keep up... without green lantern ring or Iron Man-esque power armor. "No thank you." says Batman. "I'm cool with my batarangs. I bet Darkseid won't see THAT one coming." Oh, and I'm not really a DC-guy.

Spider-Man? The character itself is usually basically okay... but the writing has been less than stellar for a long, long time. Then again, Spider-Man is not my favorite Marvel-hero because he lacks that certain... edge? Elan?

[KillingAScarab]

Ah, Batman Beyond. It was such a shame that it didn't get an ending during its broadcast days. Instead, the series wasn't given a finale until Justice League Unlimited, which was really more of an end for Batman: The Animated Series considering the homage to, "On Leather Wings."

I guess it makes sense that Punisher and Daredevil take care of the extremely gritty crime of New York while Spider-man takes down the Bank Robbers and Purse thieves, with the occasional powerhouse Super Villain.

I will accept that.

Sometimes, you need to beat up Firelord. Sometimes, you need to beat up Stilt-Man. Sometimes, you learn at the foot of Doctor Strange. Sometimes, you teach the Beyonder how to use a toilet. But most of the time, you just need your friendly neighborhood Spiderman to stop a mugging. Unless your friendly neighborhood Spiderman has been possessed by Doc Ock, then he'll consider it beneath his superior intellect and make you realize what it is is you like about Peter.