Batman or Spider-man?

[AvatarVecna]

I'm sorry,let me rephrasein a way thatcan't be deliberately misinterpreted: not anybody can be Batman, because being Batman requires a mountain of gadgets and free time that is, quite frankly, outside of most everybody's ability to pay for. Most of the people who have donned the cowl did so because Vruce's money gave them the opportunity to be a hero of the night without having to worry about getting up for a job in the morning; he sole exception that immediately springs to mind is Superman, but only because he had a different reason for not having to worry about sleep (namely, being Superman).

There's a lot of supers whose powers or circumstances give them the opportunity to ignore such monor concerns as eating, sleeping, and keeping the lights on, but what kindof message is that? That people will only use their powers for altruistic reasons if they don't need to worry about themselves? That's not a moral conflict. Batman can be Batman full time because Bruce Wayne's piggy bank can keep him living in luxury the rest of his life. Superman only works as a reporter because he wants to fit in, not because he needs a job or a way to hear about crimes. Tony Stark is super-rich, Thor is literally a god, Wonder Woman is blessed by an entire pantheon, the "poor oppressed mutants" of the X-men series live in a mansion and have super-dependable job security...and Peter Parker delivers pizzas in between going to college and fighting crime.

Being Batman would be cool, but it wouldn't be good; Batman could use his money to help the community in ways other than "punch bad guys in the face himself". Yes, Spider-Man does the same thing, but the difference is that delivering knuckle-sandwiches is close to his only option on the "using your powers for good" side of things, whereas Bruce Wayne has otger options. Batman inspires me because he shows that you don't need superpowers to be a superhero, and that's wonderful. But I prefer Spider-Man, because he inspires me to be a good person even when being a good person means I'm gonna suffer for it. You say nobody would want to be Peter Parker? I disagree: I want to be Peter Parker. I want to be the kind of person with a pile of student debt and a significant other who still has enough moralfiber to not use their powers for personal gain. The personal benefits Peter gets from being Spider-Man (selling pictures to the paper) are side-effects as far as Peter-s concerned; it's not why he got into the hero business, it's just a way for him to make his heroism slightly less painful of his wallet.

I like Batman, but I want to be Peter Larker...not for the spider powers, but for the moral compass I wish I could possess.

[Kyberwulf]

Are you kidding. You don't NEED to be Peter Parker to have a moral compass. Unless your saying that you don't have one like that now...or wouldn't if you got super powers. Not to mention Batman has one of the Best Moral Compasses around. I don't like Peter Parker because he halfasses almost everything. Sadly Peter exemplifies Why children shouldn't be heroes.

Bruce Wayne Does use his money in charities.

[Zigwat]

Okay, yes he can be childish, but Spider-man has done some awesome stuff with his powers. I mean, really, it could have been a LOT worse.

If you've ever read the first issue of Amazing Spider-man, you'd see that mere seconds after he got home to Aunt May, he considered becoming a criminal! He really wanted the money to help his Aunt out, and with his powers he could have stolen a whole lot of stuff! However, he decided to take the moral high road, because that's what Uncle Ben would have wanted.

So, really, it wasn't like Batman where he was just all around angry at crime itself. He simply took down his Uncle's killer and had to go from there.

[Anteros]

Azrael has worn the Batsuit without financial backing. Heck, there are plenty of stories where Bruce is broke as well or has no access to his tech. We are talking about the guy who literally travelled the world as a penniless hobo to seek out and train with different masters. Money isn't what makes him Batman, his drive and mind are.

[Lacuna Caster]

...and Peter Parker delivers pizzas in between going to college and fighting crime.

Being Batman would be cool, but it wouldn't be good; Batman could use his money to help the community in ways other than "punch bad guys in the face himself".

*shrugs* Again, this depends very much on the writer. Yes, the default/seminal version of Spiderman is a harried teen with severe problems of time-and-relationships-management, and there's a lot of pathos to be derived from that. On balance, I'll give Spidey the advantage here.

However, there are enough recurrent literary mentions of Bruce Wayne spending a certain amount of time and energy keeping his firm in the black and splashing out on wider philanthropic endeavours that I don't think the 'conservative wet dream' critique is entirely fair, if we're talking about the composite/consensus picture of the character that people get het up about.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah, funny that. Peter Spent most of his time before his Uncles death, but after he got his powers cheating people out of money. Strong Moral Compass there. It took the death of someone who conveniently told him with great power comes great responsibility.

[Reddish Mage]

Personally I think the concept of a guy without superpowers and a grim dedication to morality is more relatable in an anyone-can-be-a-superhero kind of way than the power-high kid with no friends or money...however I still think Spider-Man is more relatable AS AN ACTUAL CHARACTER to real life everyday teenagers and when he was briefly allowed to grow up and have a family, to adults.

[Traab]

Personally I think the concept of a guy without superpowers and a grim dedication to morality is more relatable in an anyone-can-be-a-superhero kind of way than the power-high kid with no friends or money...however I still think Spider-Man is more relatable AS AN ACTUAL CHARACTER to real life everyday teenagers and when he was briefly allowed to grow up and have a family, to adults.

But the thing is, you get less relatable when the only reason it works is you are so ungodly wealthy that you can casually build space stations. That doesnt even include the absolutely absurd level of training batman has. Its like, each of his special skills, like being a master of dozens of martial arts, a master criminologist, a cunning linguist, and enough knowledge in virtually every field to hang with a conversation between experts, is theoretically possible on their own, but batman has managed to master ALL OF THEM AT ONCE. There is no way in hell that counts as no super powers.

[Reddish Mage]

Eh, your choosing to focus on Batman's superskills and resources as making him in relatable. Minus the money, Peter Parker is every bit as absurdly skilled. Peter Parker is a teenager, yet he is a super-scientist, resourceful enough to create his own web-slingers, and can use or hack any tech he comes across, he just doesn't have to use super-tech to often because, as Death-Battle pointed out, his Spider-fu is more than a match for Batman's 111 or so martial arts and everything in that utility belt.

In fact, what's kinda absurd is how Peter Parker does odd jobs and gets money by selling photos to the guy who sells papers attacking Spider-Man. What he can't take 5 minutes to create the auto-magic home-pizza maker or something and make a fortune? I mean he's naive enough he'll get patent-jumped or screwed out of the profits, but that can only happen so many times before he discovers that Kickstarter is a thing.

[Lacuna Caster]

But the thing is, you get less relatable when the only reason it works is you are so ungodly wealthy that you can casually build space stations. That doesnt even include the absolutely absurd level of training batman has. Its like, each of his special skills, like being a master of dozens of martial arts, a master criminologist, a cunning linguist, and enough knowledge in virtually every field to hang with a conversation between experts, is theoretically possible on their own, but batman has managed to master ALL OF THEM AT ONCE. There is no way in hell that counts as no super powers.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by 'the only reason it works'?. Batman worked as a story-concept just fine long before the Watchtower was a glint in any writer's eye. Or are you referring simply to what MovieBob was talking about, that handling street-crime in person looks increasingly petty as the scale of his team-ups grow? I agree it's a valid complaint, but I'm not sure there are many superheroes whose inclusion in massive continuity-spanning team-ups doesn't wind up feeling awkward.

*shrugs* I could point out that Batman could theoretically outsource certain problems to Lucius or Oracle, or take 20, 30, or 40 years to reach some arbitrary level of polymath-ness, and still operate in a Batman-esque fashion. I have no idea if the current blessed-by-corporate-approval version fits that profile, but this would hardly be my first complaint with, say, Snyder's unique vision.

I suspect, however, that the broader discussion here is likely to go round and round in circles unless you narrow the parameters for comparison considerably. Otherwise folks will just latch selectively onto the particular representations of X they like/dislike, and you'll get never-ending volleys of 'Is!' 'Is Not!'

[Mato]

I personally like Spiderman better than Batman.

Batman is just a rich cosplayer beating up the mentally ill who constantly escape through the revolving and useless door of Arkham Asylum which is the most corrupt mental health institution since Jiggsaw's home for everyonehehates. And Batman does have superpowers, the superpowers of not at all realistic. He has mastered every martial art, including the ones that were never wrote down or taught to him. He has several degrees, even through he spent his teenaged years on the street in apparently in a monastery without Internet. He is the world's greatest detective, thanks to to whomever programmed the software in his Batcomputer. And has even dodged Mr Eyebeam's eyebeams, like every other JL member did but we're told it's supposed to be an impossibility. Which is pretty much the entire point, Batman's superpower is the author's being more concerned with bat-puns than story.

It's not to say Batman's comics are terrible. But the Batman character is defined by his villains. They have some of the most fleshed out back stories and character traits of any other character. A few of them are fairly unique and truly fascinating characters to use in a story. Batman is an ominous shadow that the actual characters are thrown against to make a plot and since the good guy is Batman, he has to win. Probably the greatest depiction of Batman was in one of the JL series where they turned him into a satire humor element with the other characters, and sometimes him, offering quips about Batman.

Spiderman on the other hand has a character and a personality. And it's a fun personality, in some depictions its Deadpool-lite or Deadpool for kids. The character struggles, goes through several arcs that stick with him rather than nameless GF #574, and in several incarnations gets taught valuable lessons on growing up giving him and after school special appeal, a point of morality learned rather than spinning his wheels in the same spot for decades. And we're not told he's smart because so or because he can type on a computer. We regularly see him attending lectures, tutoring, conducting experiments to reinforce the concept instead of relying on MacGuffians & one-line dialogue/narration about past events. Spiderman at it's root is a fun spun character who is about trying to better your self to help ensure past mistakes never happen again. Even if Sony never got the memo...

[Anteros]

It's like super apparent that a lot of people in this thread haven't actually read the material they're complaining about.

[Hiro Protagonest]

but that can only happen so many times before he discovers that Kickstarter is a thing.

This just strikes me as hilariously out of place. The vast majority of Spiderman was written well before Kickstarter existed.

[Traab]

I'm not sure I get what you mean by 'the only reason it works'?. Batman worked as a story-concept just fine long before the Watchtower was a glint in any writer's eye. Or are you referring simply to what MovieBob was talking about, that handling street-crime in person looks increasingly petty as the scale of his team-ups grow? I agree it's a valid complaint, but I'm not sure there are many superheroes whose inclusion in massive continuity-spanning team-ups doesn't wind up feeling awkward.

*shrugs* I could point out that Batman could theoretically outsource certain problems to Lucius or Oracle, or take 20, 30, or 40 years to reach some arbitrary level of polymath-ness, and still operate in a Batman-esque fashion. I have no idea if the current blessed-by-corporate-approval version fits that profile, but this would hardly be my first complaint with, say, Snyder's unique vision.

I suspect, however, that the broader discussion here is likely to go round and round in circles unless you narrow the parameters for comparison considerably. Otherwise folks will just latch selectively onto the particular representations of X they like/dislike, and you'll get never-ending volleys of 'Is!' 'Is Not!'

No, I mean the only reason bruce was able to learn any of that stuff and fight crime is because he is massively wealthy and didnt have to work for a living for quite a few years. The fact that he learned way more than is humanly possible on top of being fabulously wealthy enough to afford all those wonderful toys of his just makes it worse. To put it a better way, if bruce wayne had been a kid from some middle class family, he would be more kick-ass than batman. No fancy gear, no bullet/knife/electric/water/clay/plant proof body armor, no big fancy vehicle with more features than a movie theater, no more martial art skill than you can pick up at the karate dojo next to the local walmart. He would have the deductive power of a kid who watched too much law and order growing up. His batarangs would be salvaged from aluminum siding and suck as a weapon, and he wouldnt have a loyal butler to patch him up after his inevitable butt whupping.

[Lord Raziere]

It's like super apparent that a lot of people in this thread haven't actually read the material they're complaining about.

to be fair......comic books are something thats expensive and hard to get into, even for nerds. many of us, have other interests and things we want to do aside from researching over 40-70 years of comics to get this stuff right. most of what I know is like, from watching Linkara. thats why things like the movies and the cartoons are so popular, because they can reach a wider audience without all the complicated continuity that vast majority of us will probably never get to see or understand, and if pulled off well captures the essence of the character perfectly. like with B:TAS.

[Lacuna Caster]

No, I mean the only reason bruce was able to learn any of that stuff and fight crime is because he is massively wealthy and didnt have to work for a living for quite a few years.

Oh, that. No, that's garbage. Firstly because most of those skills were acquired during his teen and early adult years when we are not expected to work full-time, and secondly because he's largely an autodidact who either didn't need mentors to learn or took lessons from the kind who don't charge money. (It's not clear that Bruce even has a college degree.) As such, wealth was mostly irrelevant to his education.

You wanna see Bruce Wayne with a upper-middle-lower-class broken-home background? Fine, here you go.

I'm not denying that his wealth confers very real advantages, but he's operating on a level of talent where that's a function of his willpower/interest and not vice versa. There are also plenty of vigilantes in the DCAU who get by just fine with fairly modest sources of income. They may be packing standard-issue kevlar instead of some hundred-dollar-toilet-seat military prototype, but none of that makes the concept unworkable.

[Traab]

Oh, that. No, that's garbage. Firstly because most of those skills were acquired during his teen and early adult years when we are not expected to work full-time, and secondly because he's largely an autodidact who either didn't need mentors to learn or took lessons from the kind who don't charge money. (It's not clear that Bruce even has a college degree.) As such, wealth was mostly irrelevant to his education.

You wanna see Bruce Wayne with a upper-middle-lower-class broken-home background? Fine, here you go.

I'm not denying that his wealth confers very real advantages, but he's operating on a level of talent where that's a function of his willpower/interest and not vice versa. There are also plenty of vigilantes in the DCAU who get by just fine with fairly modest sources of income. They may be packing standard-issue kevlar instead of some hundred-dollar-toilet-seat military prototype, but none of that makes the concept unworkable.

Thats true, there are plenty of "street level" type heroes out there who manage off a reduced budget, though im not sure how many "powerless" types there are, but honestly its just a part of the package. My original point was about relateability. And a super rich mega genius who can apparently master every martial art known to man (and alien) in addition to mastering lord knows how many fields of science from theoretical to engineering AND run his probably global business empire while at the same time spending his nights fighting crime is NOT very relatable.

[Anteros]

to be fair......comic books are something thats expensive and hard to get into, even for nerds. many of us, have other interests and things we want to do aside from researching over 40-70 years of comics to get this stuff right. most of what I know is like, from watching Linkara. thats why things like the movies and the cartoons are so popular, because they can reach a wider audience without all the complicated continuity that vast majority of us will probably never get to see or understand, and if pulled off well captures the essence of the character perfectly. like with B:TAS.

Yeah, sure. I don't expect everyone to be experts about everything. There's plenty of things I'm not into and know nothing about.

I also don't go around telling people who like those things completely incorrect reasons why they suck.

[Reddish Mage]

to be fair......comic books are something thats expensive and hard to get into, even for nerds. many of us, have other interests and things we want to do aside from researching over 40-70 years of comics to get this stuff right.

Heck, even the comic's writers don't bother.

This just strikes me as hilariously out of place. The vast majority of Spiderman was written well before Kickstarter existed.

That was kinda the joke. Also, out of everything I wrote, THAT's the thing you picked up? The point was that Peter Parker is incredibly talented and skilled and the fact he isn't obscenely wealthy and using high tech gadgets all the time (note I didn't say he never uses them) is that he doesn't need to, if he's not as broadly superskilled as Batman, he's still superskilled enough to put the world's greatest engineers to shame.

[Anteros]

Thats true, there are plenty of "street level" type heroes out there who manage off a reduced budget, though im not sure how many "powerless" types there are, but honestly its just a part of the package. My original point was about relateability. And a super rich mega genius who can apparently master every martial art known to man (and alien) in addition to mastering lord knows how many fields of science from theoretical to engineering AND run his probably global business empire while at the same time spending his nights fighting crime is NOT very relatable.

But the super genius tech wizard 15 year old with the supermodel wife and magical spider powers, that's relatable?

[leafman]

That was kinda the joke. Also, out of everything I wrote, THAT's the thing you picked up? The point was that Peter Parker is incredibly talented and skilled and the fact he isn't obscenely wealthy and using high tech gadgets all the time (note I didn't say he never uses them) is that he doesn't need to, if he's not as broadly superskilled as Batman, he's still superskilled enough to put the world's greatest engineers to shame.

Peter is obscenely wealthy and using high tech gadgets all the time currently in the comics. All because of him being CEO of Parker Industries. (it kinda sucks btw)

Personally, I like Spider-Man more than Batman for a few reasons: his stories are usually funny (the Avenging Spider-Man title was great for this), I find his 'never give up' attitude inspiring, and he isn't the go to beats-anyone-with-prep-time joke that Batman has become.
Plus, I'm getting tired of the Joker; Batman has other villains, write memorable, quality roles for them in movies already, DC/Warner Bros!


To the point that was made earlier that P.I. only exists because of Doc Ock: Peter was doing pretty much the same thing at Horizon Labs before Spider-Octopus got Peter fired and Horizon Labs got shut down.

[Reddish Mage]

Peter is obscenely wealthy and using high tech gadgets all the time currently in the comics. All because of him being CEO of Parker Industries. (it kinda sucks btw)

Isnt pointing out Spidey's current job (and it wasn't his idea in the first place!) llittle different from me pointing out he should run Kickstarter, only you seem serious? I assumed we weren't talking about Superior Spider-Man either, or Iron-Spider () or the gadgets and tricks Peter Parker picks up for a story arc or even a few. Peter Parker spent most of his career as a photographer or doing odd jobs, and he is dependent on much fewer gadget then Batman (currently he doesn't even need those web slingers!).

But then Batman sometimes has outfits that let him go toe to toe with super humans (oh and sometimes he is simply that strong too) but we are talking broadly of the Spider-Man persona as opposed to Batman-as-he-appears popularly. It's pretty tough speaking consistently about either one, given their long history and multiple and even contradictory origins and stories. Also both of them have official Storylines (that's plural for both!), but also whole lot of movies direct to DVDs, cartoons, toys, tshirts, you name it, all out, all fairly recent!

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, funny that. Peter Spent most of his time before his Uncles death, but after he got his powers cheating people out of money. Strong Moral Compass there. It took the death of someone who conveniently told him with great power comes great responsibility.

You act like it's unusual for someone to have a dramatic shift in how they view reality after losing a loved one. Or that people's moral compass can't improve with time.

[Sapphire Guard]

It seems like a lot of the criticisms levelled at the bat here are really criticisms of the comic book superhero genre in general.

Why does Bats attract hate for not using his money to benefit the community? Well, he's one of the few that demonstrably does do exactly that.

Why doesn't he kill his villains? Applicable to almost every superhero, why specifically hate the bat for it?

He doesn't sacrifice anything? He doesn't have any semblance of a normal life because he's fully devoted to his calling. He has to do all that prep time and planning because he has to try to keep up with people with superpowers. Which doesn't always work, by the way.

Realism? Well, no, but neither is your other favourite hero if you break it down.

Like any comic book argument, it depends a lot on the writer.

[Chives]

The batman side thinks that Bats is relatable because of his human side, his emotions, being a father, friends. While the spiderman side thinks that Spidey is relatable because of his financial situation, his life, and his relationships. There aren't really conflicting opinions here.

[Kyberwulf]

I talk about his Uncles death because it is a driving motivation for Spiderman. Something he seems to get a free pass for. When Batman has something to the same effect. It's used as one of his checks in the negative column. "Ohhhh, his parents where killed right in front of him.. He should get over it."

Same thing with their money situation. Peter Parker gets a free pass cause he is a broke guy. Just because Batman has money he is seem as a weaker character. Just because he doesn't have money, I can relate to him, I just don't like how people use that as an excuse. Criminals often grow up poor. Why don't we relate to them, and give them a free pass for all the stuff they do.

Batman tries to not have a love life, because he knows that his calling doesn't allow for that. Peter Selfishly tries to have relationships, and they invariable do not end well for them.

Batman should use his wealth and fame to save humanity. Well, Peter should use his Intellect and skills as an inventor to make something that should save humanity... Instead of selfishly using his powers to go out and have fun bullying lesser people. Yeah, he is a Bully. He goes out and picks on people that aren't nearly in his weight class.

Superpowers. Yeah, Batman gets called out on being able to out prep any badguy. It is a little silly. The funny thing is. He is dedicated to doing what he does. He would keep going to make the world a better place, even if he lost his money, or his life. I don't know what Peter would do. Because he is so all over the place. I find it hilarious that Doc Oct did a better job at Spiderman then spiderman did.

[Reddish Mage]

How about Batman just being unlikable because he's all mopey and solemn?

As opposed to Spider-Man, who is just mopey.

[themaque]

Personally, I much prefer Spider-man. He's mopey and drama ridden as Batman but he's much more willing to actually ENJOY life and ATTEMPT to better himself in ways other than Crime must PAY.

Plus, If I was to just spend time with either, I would much rather have it be Peter.

Obviously, with any character that has stretched this long in pop culture you will find evidence to support nearly any opinion but that was my take on the characters.

[Lacuna Caster]

Thats true, there are plenty of "street level" type heroes out there who manage off a reduced budget, though im not sure how many "powerless" types there are, but honestly its just a part of the package. My original point was about relateability. And a super rich mega genius who can apparently master every martial art known to man (and alien) in addition to mastering lord knows how many fields of science from theoretical to engineering AND run his probably global business empire while at the same time spending his nights fighting crime is NOT very relatable.

*shrugs* I think this hinges entirely on what aspect of the character you want to fixate on. For me, the focus on mental effort, restrained/directed anger, and the evidence of mortality is something that makes Batman feel grounded and human. I don't think it's likely either of us is going to rewire the other's perceptions in that regard.

One point that could support the 'silver spoon superpower' angle: If you go back to his first publication, child labour was a lot more widespread, so there you can argue that Bruce's education was predicated on wealth. It'd be interesting to do a comparison of early Batman comics with Superman's in terms of addressing social justice, which had definitely been a looming concern in the latter, but probably giving way to explosive power creep by 1940.

[Friv]

That was kinda the joke. Also, out of everything I wrote, THAT's the thing you picked up? The point was that Peter Parker is incredibly talented and skilled and the fact he isn't obscenely wealthy and using high tech gadgets all the time (note I didn't say he never uses them) is that he doesn't need to, if he's not as broadly superskilled as Batman, he's still superskilled enough to put the world's greatest engineers to shame.

This reminds me of an old Spiderman story in which Peter desperately needs rent money, so he decides to use his brain and sell the formula for his webfluid to a corporation and get rich off the royalties.

The corporation says, "Sorry, Spiderman, there's no possible profitable application of an immensely powerful and adaptable adhesive that dissolves after two hours, leaving no trace or side effects. We can't imagine any situation in which people would want to buy that."