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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Would be good, but sadly there are no new rules for Doomrider, so I'd have to give this codex a 0 bikers/10.

    For real though, most of the changes look pretty good. The one thing I'd suggest is keeping the Slaanesh psychic powers mostly the same. I'd say Ecstatic Seizures could keep its cost of 2 Warp Charges.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    I think the difference here is between newly turned Chapters of "Renegade Marines" like Huron Blackheart, and full on "Chaos Legions" like the World Eaters. And really they need separate army lists, or even codexes (as loath as I am to encourage another marine dex). At the very least, you need to make a mission-statement of which one you are trying to write.

    Renegades have access to most of the Loyalist inventory but only a few daemonic tricks, and has reduced leadership etc to represent infighting. Legions has big holes in the armoury (no Razorbacks etc) but vastly more daemonic corruption and nastiness (forgefiends, cult troops). Neither have access to the same tactics/formations as Loyalists, so the same gear may be used in radically different ways. Both should get Drop Pods, an omission that has never made any sense in fluff or outside of it (though maybe not the Drop Pod assault rule, so they're more unreliable).
    Last edited by Voidhawk; 2016-04-23 at 05:16 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Both should get Drop Pods, an omission that has never made any sense in fluff or outside of it (though maybe not the Drop Pod assault rule, so they're more unreliable).
    Always annoyed me how you constantly hear about traitors and renegades podding in (doubly galling since it's apparently the main thing that crimson slaughter uses and is specifically stated to be a thing in the dark vengance books/audiodramas) and yet crack open a CSM dex and they don't get them.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Always annoyed me how you constantly hear about traitors and renegades podding in (doubly galling since it's apparently the main thing that crimson slaughter uses and is specifically stated to be a thing in the dark vengance books/audiodramas) and yet crack open a CSM dex and they don't get them.
    Hmm... switch the storm bolter for a combi-bolter and the deathwind launcher for a havoc launcher? Sounds about right.

    I'll go through the loyalist armoury and see what else might need to be added. Anything crusades era is going to be ported over for everyone, including grav weapons, while post-heresy stuff will be added to the Renegades legion armoury.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Well....i just got done reading (what was to me) a fairly amusing argument about the 3.5 CSM codex, and it made me realize that that book had a ton of cool stuff in it. It had some stupid stuff too, but a bunch of it was awesome.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Well....i just got done reading (what was to me) a fairly amusing argument about the 3.5 CSM codex, and it made me realize that that book had a ton of cool stuff in it. It had some stupid stuff too, but a bunch of it was awesome.
    Hmm... I should go back and look through it for ideas, I think.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    Hmm... I should go back and look through it for ideas, I think.
    It cant hurt, and the vast majority of CSM players of that era look back at it fondly. That book could have been perfect if it had gone another round or two through the editor.
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2016-04-23 at 10:43 AM.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Hmm, how do folks think Terminators, Bikers and Maulerfiends stack up currently?

    I've also, I think, finished giving all of the legions their special rules. Still need to go over their armouries though.

    Emperor's Children get to move 1d3 inches whenever they take wounds outside of assault. They also have mandatory challenges, but get re-rolls to hit, rending and count challenge wounds twice for combat resolution as compensation.

    World Eaters have been given a once per game run-then-charge, but must always declare charge when possible for the rest for the game after using it. They still get Furious Charge and +1 WS.

    Black Legion can re-roll 1s for reserves. They also get to re-roll 1s to hit when shooting within 12" or in assaults where they outnumber the enemy.

    Renegades can invoke the blessing of each of the four gods once per game, re-rolling 1s on a particular type of roll appropriate to the god (and an improved benefit for models with the appropriate Mark). They also get PE (Armies of the Imperium) but give Imperials Hatred against them.
    Last edited by Tome; 2016-04-23 at 03:23 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Chaos Terminators are pretty bad, I think you should move their T up to 5 or in some way balance their issues because as is they are only good at one thing, which is triple combi weapon deepstriking, and not very good at that.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Chaos Terminators are pretty bad, I think you should move their T up to 5 or in some way balance their issues because as is they are only good at one thing, which is triple combi weapon deepstriking, and not very good at that.
    Maybe give them access to a 3+ Invuln somehow?
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Maybe give them access to a 3+ Invuln somehow?
    Hmm... maybe giving them access to a 4++, which can then stack with the MoT?

    Yeah, letting Chaos Termies take Sigils of Corruption at a bit of a discount sounds like a decent idea. Maybe Chosen too, albeit at full price.
    Last edited by Tome; 2016-04-23 at 03:45 PM.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Personally I like the idea of dropping their base point cost down to 22ish, around where bikes are. They are slower and have lower toughness than the bikes, but slightly better saves. Also I would let groups of three take a rhino, so they don't need a land raiser tax to accomplish things.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Personally I like the idea of dropping their base point cost down to 22ish, around where bikes are. They are slower and have lower toughness than the bikes, but slightly better saves. Also I would let groups of three take a rhino, so they don't need a land raiser tax to accomplish things.
    Rhinos can't take Bulky models.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Rhinos can't take Bulky models.
    That can be changed, though.

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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    That can be changed, though.
    Yeah, but that'd make Chaos Rhinos outright better than Loyalist Rhinos.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    You're right - those loyalists just can't catch a break.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Yeah, but that'd make Chaos Rhinos outright better than Loyalist Rhinos.
    That can be changed too.

    Or maybe give them an upgrade to take terminators? "Improved storage" or something.

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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Extra-Dimensional Storage Space?
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    That could be more chaosy - "ruined construction" - can take Bulky models, gets Open-topped. (So they get to charge out, too)
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Yeah, but that'd make Chaos Rhinos outright better than Loyalist Rhinos.
    Balance isn't about making things identical, it is about making general equilibrium. Chaos does not have drop pods, for instance, so their other transports need to be better or they are in fact behind.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    Hmm, how do folks think Terminators, Bikers and Maulerfiends stack up currently?
    Terminators have their niche (112 points for 3 guys with combi melta). It's not strong and it's not common or even very good, but some lists can make use of them. They're 95 for 3 and 31 ppm for each one after that and come with a power weapon base. A power fist is 7 ppm. Loyalist tacticals are 35 and come with a powerfist base and all the other benefits of being a loyalist (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics etc). CSM Termies need to go down to 28 ppm just to be equivalent to vanilla termies (or make the power fist upgrade cheaper, but we all know termies are pretty bad anyway). This would give them roughly double the durability of a tactical marine against small arms for roughly double the price. The free power weapon can be seen as the tradeoff for not getting Obsec or filling the mandatory force org slots.

    Bikers are dependant on the HQ you take. MoN (T6) or MoS (FNP banner) are both an even trade for spawn, but MoT and MoK are both unusable and can't be troops like in the vanilla dex. Not sure what to do to fix them without making them a copy of vanilla marine bikers and the MoT and MoK still won't be taken in a CSM list (MoT gives a 6++ and MoK can be done better through the gorepack from KDK).

    Maulerfiends are probably fine. Maybe a 5-10 point downwards adjustment, but they're basically a 12" move dread with the ability to ignore terrain and a 5++. WS3 and I3 hurts, but they're priced about right IMHO. They're a conerstone of the AV12 rush that was popular a few years back before crazy things like scatbikes became a thing.

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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Tome View Post
    I've also, I think, finished giving all of the legions their special rules. Still need to go over their armouries though.

    Emperor's Children get to move 1d3 inches whenever they take wounds outside of assault. They also have mandatory challenges, but get re-rolls to hit, rending and count challenge wounds twice for combat resolution as compensation.

    World Eaters have been given a once per game run-then-charge, but must always declare charge when possible for the rest for the game after using it. They still get Furious Charge and +1 WS.
    I think you should stop creating special rules that come with downsides, because they're never a good idea. Either the downside is worse than the upside and it will never see play, or it's trivial and a waste of rules. The number of times GW has made balanced downsides I could count on one hand.

    Mandatory challenges are both bad and unnecessary. If they're good in a duel, they'll be challenging all the time and it doesn't matter. If the player is in a situation they don't want to challenge, it means the duelling rules aren't good enough to let them function the way you want. Rather than buffs to damage you really want to cover the downsides to challenges: improve survivability while dueling (to cover loss of LoSir!), and penalise the enemy for not accepting (to make it actually come up). Or even make it so the enemy HAS to accept.

    Giving World Eaters a waaaagh is pretty awesome, but making them lose control of their entire army afterwards is not worth anything.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Actually, looking over it, how about you give all the Space Marines a ATSKNF equivalent or Fearless? The removal of Veterans of the Long War means there isn't an easy way to alleviate the problem unless you take Icons of Vengeance on all your units.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluydee View Post
    Actually, looking over it, how about you give all the Space Marines a ATSKNF equivalent or Fearless? The removal of Veterans of the Long War means there isn't an easy way to alleviate the problem unless you take Icons of Vengeance on all your units.
    I'd rather err on the side of not letting another army just universally negate such a huge chunk of mechanics by handing out Fearless.

    Still... hmm, maybe some sort of buff. I suppose I could up Leadership, particularly on champions. A universal special rule boosting their ld tests for certain things is another option.

    Yeah, that sounds decent. Up the cost of the marines by 1 point (13 points for basic CSM, thematic) and give them a special rule that lets them do the old 'roll three dice, discard the highest' thing for morale and Fear tests?
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    You could just make them Stubborn.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    You could just make them Stubborn.
    Stubborn doesn't actually do much. The only leadership tests you take penalties on normally are when you lose an assault. The big reason some morale based rule might be called for is morale tests from shooting, which Stubborn does nothing for.

    But yeah, added the 'Sanity is for the Weak' rule and upped point costs by 1 to pay for it.
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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    GW drove me away from 40k, but prior to leaving I had accomplished much of a massive codex/game rebalancing. You are welcome to use my work as a starting point or for ideas, and if you use any of it I'd appreciate a shoutout. It is a touch out of date, but a large amount of the foundations are there or can be extrapolated. Links to all main codifies should be there.

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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    GW drove me away from 40k, but prior to leaving I had accomplished much of a massive codex/game rebalancing. You are welcome to use my work as a starting point or for ideas, and if you use any of it I'd appreciate a shoutout. It is a touch out of date, but a large amount of the foundations are there or can be extrapolated. Links to all main codifies should be there.

    Zagman's Masochistic Edeavor: A Balance Errata for 40k
    Oh look, Zag-Hammer, also i didnt know you where on GitP.
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    smile Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Hi, a Thousand sons player de-lurking here.

    I like what you have done, but I have some ideas for my favorite legion


    Thousand Sons

    The Rubric of Ahriman: All models with the Legionnes of Chaos (Thousand Sons) special rule must take exactly one of the following upgrades:

    •Aspiring Sorcerer: Any character that is not already a Psyker may take this upgrade. The model gains the Psyker (Mastery Level 1) special rule ...20 points per model
    I'd say that all characters have to be psykers, fits with the whole "all is dust" fluff.


    •Brotherhood of Sorcerers: Any unit of Chosen or Chaos Terminators may take this rule. The entire unit gains the Brotherhood of Sorcerers (Mastery Level 1) special rule …35 points per unit
    Maby make it so that chosen and terminators have to take the brotherhood of psyker rule and make their powers pre-determined, like Grey knights?

    •Master Sorcerer: Sorcerers must take this upgrade. Models with this special rule may generate one additional psychic power, beyond what their Mastery Level would normally provide ... 15 points per model


    •Psychic Pilot: Any Vehicle may take this upgrade. The model gains the Psychic Pilot (Mastery Level 1) special rule ...20 points per model
    Love both of these.

    Rubric Marine: Any non-Psyker, non-Independant Character model may take this upgrade. The model gains the Slow and Purposeful special rule and a 5+ Invulnerable save. A Thousand Sons Psyker may, at the start of your turn, take a Leadership test to temporarily remove the Slow and Purposeful rule for one turn from any Rubric Marines in their unit or a Rubric Marine transport Vehicle that they are embarked upon ...1 point per model
    This is the one I'd like to change the most. Maby something like this:
    All havocs and Chaos space marine units must take this upgrade.
    Gain aura of dark glory
    Slow and purposefull
    Fearless
    -1 to WS, BS and I.[/

    If a psyker with MoT is part of the unit, replace Slow and purposeful with relentles.


    Maby that's to much? I like the basis for Thousand sons, so I'd like to keep some of that.

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    Default Re: "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Oh look, Zag-Hammer, also i didnt know you where on GitP.
    Haha, yep. Glad I'm remembered, though I hope it is fondly and not infamously! I kind of wished GW didn't rapidly increase the frequency the were outputing garbage so I could have kept up, but at the pace they were going I lost interest in anything 40k and got rid of everything but my gorgeous Farsight Army.

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