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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen a fifth level character with half plate, nor do I think I ever will.
    My Tempest Sorcerer is 7th level with half-plate and a shield. There was a set of half-plate made out of mushrooms in one of the Out of the Abyss modules (can't remember which one). It was supposed to be for the druid, but he didn't want it, so I grabbed it.

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    Default Re: Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

    I played with some builds, and I like Moderately Armored more now that I've really looked at it. It's blue.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ettin in the Playground
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    warlocks by default don't really get much in the way of reactions, afaict.

    (unless polearm master, of course, but then they're using a two handed weapon and can cast by just letting go for a moment... though that does decrease the value of shield proficiency for sure).

    anyways, for a significant portion of all warlocks (where investing max dex and an invocation is expensive) moderately armoured is by far the better choice.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    My Tempest Sorcerer is 7th level with half-plate and a shield. There was a set of half-plate made out of mushrooms in one of the Out of the Abyss modules (can't remember which one). It was supposed to be for the druid, but he didn't want it, so I grabbed it.
    The DMG treasure guidelines have a 5th level character with maybe 500gp of rewards. It's possible they *might* have come across big enough hordes, with a small enough party, to be able to afford Half-Plate. But unlikely. A 7th level one could potentially have found a level 5+ treasure hoard and have enough to afford it. 5th level is a break point for stepping up to play with the big-boys, and the various rules assumptions change accordingly.

    Modules/Adventure Paths have a tendency to break the guidelines in all sorts of ways btw. In all editions, not just 5e.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I played with some builds, and I like Moderately Armored more now that I've really looked at it. It's blue.
    Top man. People might like your layout, but to me that right there shows the true value of your guides. The fact that you are flexible means that the guides are useful to more than just yourself. A lot of guides fail in that respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Modules/Adventure Paths have a tendency to break the guidelines in all sorts of ways btw. In all editions, not just 5e.
    Makes sense. I just wanted to point out that it's possible. Though to be fair, it is quite unlikely sub 5th level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    If that's the concern, taking Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate and grabbing Shocking Grasp is a better bet since you'll be able to extricate yourself from melee, and you'll get other solid benefits to boot.
    You'll be able to extricate yourself from melee, assuming only one melee opponent who for some reason doesn't pursue (so that you have the same problem next round).

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

    I love it, I love it, I love it.

    Thanks for the guide! I'll keep checking back for more!

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    Top man. People might like your layout, but to me that right there shows the true value of your guides. The fact that you are flexible means that the guides are useful to more than just yourself. A lot of guides fail in that respect.
    Ha! Thanks. I've noticed that a lot of guides are about delivering the author's opinion as fact, which doesn't appeal to me. I prefer to have a conversation and let the guide reflect that conversation. Besides, I'm frequently wrong, so I might as well let other people make me look smarter.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsotate View Post
    You'll be able to extricate yourself from melee, assuming only one melee opponent who for some reason doesn't pursue (so that you have the same problem next round).
    If they pursue, Shocking Grasp does not lose its viability, and you still have the extra Spell Sniper benefits.

    More importantly, so long as you can remove yourself from the immediate danger, your melee allies should be able to step in, or at the very least you should be able to reposition yourself more advantageously.

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    Not sure why Tome isn't sky blue like chain is. If you think having a suped up familiar is enough for sky blue, than Tome gives you a familiar that is at least 80% as effective as chain while giving the warlock a ton more versatility. Sure the Tome familiar can't attack but even for the chain familiar the help action typically results in more DPR than attacking itself.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Not sure why Tome isn't sky blue like chain is. If you think having a suped up familiar is enough for sky blue, than Tome gives you a familiar that is at least 80% as effective as chain while giving the warlock a ton more versatility. Sure the Tome familiar can't attack but even for the chain familiar the help action typically results in more DPR than attacking itself.
    as he already explained, that comes from an invocation, not the pact boon.

    the tome pact itself gives you more cantrips. which is nice. but not amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    as he already explained, that comes from an invocation, not the pact boon.

    the tome pact itself gives you more cantrips. which is nice. but not amazing.
    It also can potentially get you all of the rituals in the game and considering how few spells per short rest warlocks get that is huge versatility added.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    It also can potentially get you all of the rituals in the game and considering how few spells per short rest warlocks get that is huge versatility added.
    As he said, that comes from the Invocation, not the Pact.
    Don't worry, I am sure the Invocation will be the bluest of blues when he gets around to doing them.

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    May I recommend that Blade Ward be changed to purple? True, usually it's worse than just using dodge, but for Warlocks it has great synergy with Armor of Agathys and (to a lesser extent) Hellish Rebuke.

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    Hi! I like your guides and warlock is my favorite class. Thanks for that guide!

    3 things strike me as little odd..

    - why do you rate Resilient (Con) lower than warcaster? IMO as a non-bladelock (= most) warlocks, you are not troubled with a free hand requirement and a CON save is better than warcaster on higher levels to keep concentration. Add to that the requirement to have max cha, good dex and good con, the +1 is a godsend for most races that would end up with an uneven ability score anyways.

    - create thrall seems to me one of the most powerful abilities in the whole game. (depending on how the dm interprets it to a high degree..) but far from situational, because it is a free high-level sidekick at worst.

    - Race: Changeling - you write that the ability is a "free disguise self". that's how my table houserules it now after I played one. -And that is still amazing, yet redundant due to the invocation. If you read the Shapechanger ability as written, though, it says "polymorph" and that means this ability is even an extended alter-self because it should allow eg. the use of natural weapons from a minotaur and other racial abilities.. while disguise self is a mere illusion that can be dispelled with a single skill check.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markoff Chainey View Post
    why do you rate Resilient (Con) lower than warcaster? IMO as a non-bladelock (= most) warlocks, you are not troubled with a free hand requirement and a CON save is better than warcaster on higher levels to keep concentration. Add to that the requirement to have max cha, good dex and good con, the +1 is a godsend for most races that would end up with an uneven ability score anyways.
    Resilient is great, but its give one big benefit. Warcaster has three really good benefits, two of which are useful for every Warlock, and one of which makes a whole archetype much better. It's not always going to be the feat of choice, but it's always going to be a more versatile feat with greater potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Markoff Chainey View Post
    create thrall seems to me one of the most powerful abilities in the whole game. (depending on how the dm interprets it to a high degree..) but far from situational, because it is a free high-level sidekick at worst.
    The only mechanical effect it provides is giving you a long-lasting charm effect without using any resources. That means advantage on Charisma checks against one person, whom you must charm while totally incapacitated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Markoff Chainey View Post
    Race: Changeling - you write that the ability is a "free disguise self". that's how my table houserules it now after I played one. -And that is still amazing, yet redundant due to the invocation. If you read the Shapechanger ability as written, though, it says "polymorph" and that means this ability is even an extended alter-self because it should allow eg. the use of natural weapons from a minotaur and other racial abilities.. while disguise self is a mere illusion that can be dispelled with a single skill check.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    May I recommend that Blade Ward be changed to purple? True, usually it's worse than just using dodge, but for Warlocks it has great synergy with Armor of Agathys and (to a lesser extent) Hellish Rebuke.
    This is a good point. I hadn't considered this.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2016-04-23 at 06:37 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    I like it, but I have one layout issue.

    I think it would be useful to separate out the ratings for each pact from the ratings for each patron.

    For example Fiend and Fey Patrons (only just realised the full benefits recently) are great for blade pacts but old ones a bit less so.

    With that in mind, it might be worth making a not on some of the Fey pact spells re bladelocks.

    Bladelocks want a high attack stat as a main feature and like a bit more con (and dex if it isn't their attack stat). This means that Cha is lower than it otherwise would be (at least in the early game). Fey pact gives a load of good spells that work well with a melee combatant AND that don't use Cha. Greater invisibility, farie fire, blink...

    On the multi-classing I disagree on Monk. A one level dip for martial arts lets you be dex focussed and use a polearm if that's your thing. It has a role where it is pretty solid (also, some may prefer the saves).

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markoff Chainey View Post
    - create thrall seems to me one of the most powerful abilities in the whole game. (depending on how the dm interprets it to a high degree..) but far from situational, because it is a free high-level sidekick at worst.
    I doubt there are many DMs out there that would be lenient enough to make the ability as powerful as your proposed worse case scenario. The ability isn't mind control - all it does is give you advantage on your social rolls against that person. Although having advantage on a class with high Charisma certainly has its uses (although even that is fairly limited due to you getting Foresight 3 levels later - advantage on everyone on everything is obviously far superior to advantage on one type of roll against a single person).
    Last edited by Giant2005; 2016-04-23 at 06:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    I like it, but I have one layout issue.

    I think it would be useful to separate out the ratings for each pact from the ratings for each patron.

    For example Fiend and Fey Patrons (only just realised the full benefits recently) are great for blade pacts but old ones a bit less so.

    With that in mind, it might be worth making a not on some of the Fey pact spells re bladelocks.

    Bladelocks want a high attack stat as a main feature and like a bit more con (and dex if it isn't their attack stat). This means that Cha is lower than it otherwise would be (at least in the early game). Fey pact gives a load of good spells that work well with a melee combatant AND that don't use Cha. Greater invisibility, farie fire, blink...
    I think making that note is fine, but I'm a bit confused as to what the layout issue is. The Pact Boons and Patrons are already distinct from each other...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    On the multi-classing I disagree on Monk. A one level dip for martial arts lets you be dex focussed and use a polearm if that's your thing. It has a role where it is pretty solid (also, some may prefer the saves).
    That's a pretty MAD build, which defeats the purpose of focusing on DEX for attacks, no?

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    As he said, that comes from the Invocation, not the Pact.
    Don't worry, I am sure the Invocation will be the bluest of blues when he gets around to doing them.
    Ok I got it but I think that is misleading I feel the invocations unique to the paths need to be considered as a part of the rating of the pact and not what you gain at exactly level 2.

    Because overall Tome offers way more versatility due to an invocation that no other path can take. So how can you compare paths by ignoring unique invocations it isn't like pact of chain can ever get access to the ritual invocations.
    Last edited by Gignere; 2016-04-23 at 10:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    I think making that note is fine, but I'm a bit confused as to what the layout issue is. The Pact Boons and Patrons are already distinct from each other...


    That's a pretty MAD build, which defeats the purpose of focusing on DEX for attacks, no?
    Ah sorry - I wasn't clear. I was just saying that which patron is which rating is dependant on which pact you take and vice versa.


    As to the monk - well you need a 13 in Wis, that's all and it lets you dump Str instead. Otherwise if you were to go dex focussed bladelock you would be skipping out on all the great feats that support weapons like quarterstaves. Some of it also comes down to what you expect to do with your action and spell slots. If you aim to use your action to take the attack action then you are not using spells that have a to hit roll or a save (generally) so you significantly less from having a slightly lower Cha than otherwise.

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    Default Re: Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

    Another fine guide, EvilAnagram. At this rate, you'll have a guide for EVERY class! I'm almost curious as to which one is next.
    Oh for the love of little green tomatoes...

    Avatar by linklele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    As to the monk - well you need a 13 in Wis, that's all and it lets you dump Str instead. Otherwise if you were to go dex focussed bladelock you would be skipping out on all the great feats that support weapons like quarterstaves. Some of it also comes down to what you expect to do with your action and spell slots. If you aim to use your action to take the attack action then you are not using spells that have a to hit roll or a save (generally) so you significantly less from having a slightly lower Cha than otherwise.
    But why do all of that when you can instead take a level of Fighter for Heavy Armor proficiency (+shield if you are going to be using a staff)?
    You get basically all of the same benefits without having to boost your Wisdom, and you save an invocation on Armor of Shadows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
    But why do all of that when you can instead take a level of Fighter for Heavy Armor proficiency (+shield if you are going to be using a staff)?
    You get basically all of the same benefits without having to boost your Wisdom, and you save an invocation on Armor of Shadows.
    High initiative, better dex saves mainly - these are the reasons to go for using dex on the weapon rather than than Str.

    I am not trying to say this is better than 1 level of fighter - just that I felt that giving it a flat red as if it had nothing special to contribute was selling it a bit short.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    High initiative, better dex saves mainly - these are the reasons to go for using dex on the weapon rather than than Str.

    I am not trying to say this is better than 1 level of fighter - just that I felt that giving it a flat red as if it had nothing special to contribute was selling it a bit short.
    I updated the Monk MC to purple. I also finished rating all the spells and invocations. I'm done!

    Feel free to tear apart my ratings.
    Last edited by EvilAnagram; 2016-04-25 at 08:35 PM.

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    Thanks a lot Evil, I appreciate the work you've put I to your guides. And like a total d&d dweeb I've read all of them. Your pretty much the reason I gave up Rogue for a Dragonborn Ranger. I cast guidance on you and your cookies.

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    (spells)

    blight: i have to disagree. you could cast shatter instead and deal slightly less damage, but in an area. it *is* legitimately good against plants, but that just makes it situational. you've already got good single-target damage if you want from eldritch blast.

    dream is pretty ridiculous at making life sheer misery for an enemy that got away. perhaps it's just me, but i find it happens often enough that i would consider the situation to be common enough to not be so situational.


    (invocations)

    armour of shadows is mostly a +1 AC buff. assuming you don't find magic armour. it is nice, but... i dunno if i'd get *that* excited about it.

    ascendant step: sadly, it requires concentration, and most importantly, is self-only. the ability to levitate enemy melee monsters at-will? would be pretty handy. this is not that ability. i would agree it is much better *if* you have some other source of lateral movement, but for the most part floating straight up isn't that much better of a deal than having a rope you can climb.

    devil's sight: as a caster, an uncomfortably large portion of your arsenal include limitations like "creature you can see". anything that increases what you can see is a major advantage, imo.

    eldritch sight: eh, i don't know that i'm wanting to cast it *all the time* really. it's ok, i guess, but i'd say it's a fair chance someone else has this as a ritual anyways.

    mask of many faces: ummm... dispel... magic? are you sure? also "so useful" doesn't match well with black rating... i'd bump it up purely for the no concentration requirement.

    master of many faces: should be master of myriad forms, i presume. concentration requirement slightly lowers value, but it does have some uses.

    otherworldly leap: on the plus side, jump is concentration-free, and you've got it at-will now. still probably purple, but i'd rate it pretty highly in a campaign where i expect to spend a lot of time in cities, for example, where the ability to jump from the ground to a roof, or across a street from rooftop to rooftop, is much more interesting.

    sign of ill omen, thief of five fates: i think the main thing that upsets me about these is that thematically, they should just be on the warlock list by default. anyways, bane is i think a better spell than you give it credit for... it's reverse-bless, and it scales. 7 target reverse-bless is not bad at all. save debuffs can be *extremely* hard to come by, and bane does that. the once per day limit is really the sticking point for either of these spells...

    visions of distant realms: i realize this still leaves it situational, but i would specify the situation: the more prepared spellcasters you have in the party, the more amazing this invocation can be. i mean, it's handy to have an expendable ranged scout regardless, but an expendable ranged scout is much much better when you have someone who can adjust everything they do on a daily basis.

    witch sight: if it was actually true sight, it would be awesome. sadly, it is not. it is creature-restricted true sight; an illusion of a rock is just as difficult for you to see through as anyone else.

    (mystic arcanum)

    - honorable mention: it is worth noting that, should you so desire, spell of level X - Y (where Y is an integer greater than or equal to 1) cast in a level X slot *is* a level X spell. so, for example, if you feel like you'd rather be able to use mass suggestion twice per day, with one of those uses lasting 10 days... you can totally put it in your level 6 *and* 7 mystic arcanum.

    conjure fey: this isn't conjure woodland beings. you get to pick what you want, but it's only a single creature, and it could turn on you.

    true seeing: i'd say it's a bit better than you give it credit for. this is real truesight, not the witch sight discount version.

    etherealness: it's actually a pretty handy spell for just walking past all kinds of obstacles. it doesn't grant you actual flight, but it does get you the ability to get to a location that would require flight.

    glibness: have you considered what happens when you combine this with dispel magic and counterspell?

    true polymorph: also functions as a "summon anything with a CR lower than 9" spell in the great majority of locations (if there are literally no objects, you may encounter some difficulties).
    Last edited by SharkForce; 2016-04-25 at 10:54 PM.

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    Fiendish Vigor should be rated higher (or maybe Tough should be rated lower if you don't value hit points so much).
    At 8 hp a pop, it takes 5 encounters for a level 1 character to gain as many hit points from Fiendish Vigor as a level 20 would gain from Tough. That is absolutely huge! And considering the game is supposedly balanced around 6+ encounters per day, any level 1 character will get more value out of the Invocation than a level 20 would get out of the feat.
    Fiendish Vigor gives the more powerful benefit, while coming in at a lower cost (feats are a much more precious resource than invocations). There isn't really any way to justify it being rated lower than Tough. A solid argument could even be made for it being sky blue considering it gives a level 1 Warlock with 8 Con, the equivalent of 55 hit points. That is almost double the equivalent hit points of a level 1 Barbarian with 16 Con, while Raging. In my opinion, any ability that makes you tanky enough to not just shame, but absolutely humiliate a Barbarian that is striving for tankiness, should be considered as impressive as they come.

    I also think that Devil's Sight should be rated sky blue. Devil's Sight turns Darkness into a buff that replicates the combat bonuses from Foresight. Anything that can turn level 2 spell slots into the virtual equivalent of level 9 spell slots is nothing short of amazing. Especially considering you (quite rightly) rated Foresight as sky blue. If something is sky blue when it consumes a level 9 spell slot, then the equivalent ability that consumes only a level 2 spell slot should be rated just as highly.
    Last edited by Giant2005; 2016-04-26 at 12:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

    Quote Originally Posted by SharkForce View Post
    - honorable mention: it is worth noting that, should you so desire, spell of level X - Y (where Y is an integer greater than or equal to 1) cast in a level X slot *is* a level X spell. so, for example, if you feel like you'd rather be able to use mass suggestion twice per day, with one of those uses lasting 10 days... you can totally put it in your level 6 *and* 7 mystic arcanum.
    I'm not so sure.

    "You can cast your arcanum spell once without expending a spell slot." (p108)

    "When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting" (p201)

    Not only is it only at the time of casting that the spell level is upscaled (so only at that moment, and not other times like picking and preparing), Mystic Arcanum doesn't actually use a slot to upscale with (meaning the spell only is only the level it inherently possesses).

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    Default Re: Selling your Soul at a Premium: The Warlock's Guide to Power

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    If that's the concern, taking Spell Sniper or Magic Initiate and grabbing Shocking Grasp is a better bet since you'll be able to extricate yourself from melee, and you'll get other solid benefits to boot.
    I have to disagree with you there. If you have the Repelling Blast invocation a hit with Eldritch Blast will both deny your opponent their OA and give you the chance to move out of their movement range due to the increased distance between you.

    As for the chances to actually succeed, from 5th level and onwards Eldritch Blast with Crossbow Expert will have the upper hand against Shocking Grasp, very much so from 11th level.

    Keeping your damage on its normal level is a bonus.
    Last edited by wr4tchild; 2016-04-26 at 03:24 AM.

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